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2012-11-02, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-02, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerIt doesn't hurt that he wields hellfire for three books (four, if you count when he wasn't using it on purpose). Then, once he loses that, gains access to soulfire in the following book.
Edit: I'm putting that in a spoiler, because it's nothing but. The previous stuff I said was either easy to figure out from general knowledge about the books, or was vague. But that pretty much spoils no fewer than 3 books.Last edited by Sinfonian; 2012-11-02 at 10:14 AM.
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2012-11-02, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
The book specifically says that the Merlin, the Gatekeeper, and Injun Joe were investigating what had been done to people, which involved going into their minds because one line says, "near every Warden under the age of fifty had been programmed with that go-to-sleep trance command, and it had been done so smoothly and subtly that it was difficult to detect even when the master wizards were looking and knew where to find it." I don't know where they'd be finding it if not in their minds.
Then the next paragraph goes on to say, "Several of them, apparently, had been intended to become the supernatural equivalent of suicide bombers—the way Luccio had been. Repairing that kind of damage was difficult, unpredictable, and often painful to the victim." Those people definitely aren't going back to normal on their own.
This is true, but the only living people who know about that are Harry and Molly. Morgan knew, but as he was dying he said he never told anyone. So that's covered for now at least. Also, I think there's a difference between pushing someone off a roof or starting a fire and tricking someone else into killing someone. In your examples there's no one else making a choice. When Molly makes it look like someone is holding a gun instead of a bag of money, it's the other person's choice to shoot that person instead of running away or something, and she's a little vague on if she's been mainly engineering the deaths of turtlenecks or regular people. The turtlenecks don't count as human any more, like vampires who used to be human no longer count. So if she made it look like the turtleneck had a gun and the cop shot him but then the turtleneck also shot the cop before dying, can you say that her magic caused the cop to die? I think it's way too grey to make a call on that.
Well, they were already hunting her in Ghost Story since Harry was thought to be dead. I wonder if they will stop now that he's back. Lea was taking over his job of training her while he was out of commission. So does he just step back in and she becomes his apprentice again? It seems like being apprentice to the Winter Knight will be rather different.If you're a Brandon Sanderson fan (or you want to start being one), check out The Sanderlanche podcast!
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2012-11-02, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I think we all know what the Council would say here. The only thing grey they have are the cloaks the Warden's wear when they premptively chop off your head just to be sure. Fortunately presumably don't know about that stuff. (And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)
Though Molly probably clears the "mechanical" aspect of how the Laws of Magic cover magic that is inherently corrupting.
Well, they were already hunting her in Ghost Story since Harry was thought to be dead. I wonder if they will stop now that he's back. Lea was taking over his job of training her while he was out of commission. So does he just step back in and she becomes his apprentice again? It seems like being apprentice to the Winter Knight will be rather different.
Given that its Molly not Harry she *might* even catch a break. And they are looking for her to because someone like Ebenezar has agreed to take over for Harry. Or there's going to be something to release to the relationship like when Harry left the Ozarks. Not likely but there. It would explain how Ramirez is able to drag his feet on the matter, she's not actually a wanted woman per say.
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2012-11-02, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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2012-11-02, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I believe that's supposed to be "(And it would be very likely if they even know about the Rag Lady the idea that she would turn out to be some half-trained apprentice to an idiot like Dresden would demand more braincells then are available)." As in, the Council regards Dresden as an all-power no-finesse warlock-in-the-making who couldn't train an apprentice to save his life and Molly as a weak one trick pony warlock-in-the-making who's only dangerous because her one trick happens to be against the Laws of Magic--it wouldn't even cross their mind that the powerful, mysterious, competent wizard protecting Chicago would be the whiny emo goth apprenticed to the evil loose cannon.
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2012-11-03, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-03, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
The real question with Molly is- Jim is cruel, but is he cruel enough for Harry to be the one to put an out-of-control Molly down?
One thing I can predict that at some point-maybe not now, but maybe later- Harry is going to have to throw down against his friends- Murphy, the alphas, etc. possibly under Lashiel's influence or similar.
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2012-11-03, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
The thing is, Harry is pretty far out of the weight class of most of his friends, excluding McCoy and Sanya if he's acting under orders from upstairs, even more so now that he's the winter knight. Hell, as winter knight, he'd presumably be able to survive hand to hand with murphy long enough to use magic, he's now physically much stronger and tougher, and has more magic then before. With Morgan gone, he's stronger if less experienced then the wardens vets, he'd toss the alphas around like rag dolls, etc... The only "good" guys I can see going against him now with a fair shot of winning are the senior council members, a bunch of wardens at once, or Sanya.
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2012-11-03, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Though I wouldn't be surprised if they had Harry deal with a similar situation again in the future to show how far he has come since his return.SpoilerDon't forget Kincaid. He's done it once already.
With regard to Molly, I think that should would not be beyond consideration from the White Council in the actions taken by the Rag Lady. They've shown a propensity in the past to immediately suspect those who have previously crossed the line. The FIRST person they'd suspect of violating the Laws would be the person that they already had convicted of doing so in the past.Last edited by Sinfonian; 2012-11-03 at 11:38 AM.
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2012-11-03, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Where the exact benefits of knighthood ever mentioned in any of the books? I can't recall it. Are physical upgrades included? Maybe they are tailored to the knigth in question, and Harry would mostly get wintery magic?
Hm. Harry throwing ice instead of fire would be interesting.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-11-03, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
He showed a pretty good instinct for that in Changes, with what we saw. It was at its best when he was mixing it with his standard repertoire.
And you're right, there's no indication what being a Knight really means, aside from being accountable to the Queen of their Court. Harry, for one thing, feels it unjust that he has not been granted some degree of resistance to cold.
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2012-11-03, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
The first winter knight we see is much physically tougher. I think he eats a nasty blast from Harry unscathed. And he takes a huge whirlwind of ice for the Winter Lady to stop. I think Harry noted increased physical strength. And Harry got cool new ice magic.
Of course, this does come with the flaw of being faerie magic. The first winter knight had a rough time of it the second someone brought a piece of steel across his spine. Which means winter knight Harry still needs to be afraid of steel jacketed rounds.
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2012-11-03, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Pretty much, and its more likely they have no idea about there being a Rag Lady period.
If they sent someone out to investigate a case she was involved in and were able to correctly deduce that it was magic involved. It would require actual effort to distinguish the cause, especially as Molly is not just hitting the mind rape button but playing with less direct methods.
Otherwise the reports the Council has are probably along the lines of "probable Fomor agents turn up dead often in Chicago" mixed with several conflicting rumors on how/why this occurred. And it gets sorted to the bottom of the stack because Chicago is doing rather well all considered compared to the hundred fronts the White Council is busy covering.
If they haven't even just written off Chicago since they don't have a resident Warden anymore. And aren't getting anything but what Murphy and the Paranet are feeding to Rodriguez.
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2012-11-03, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Last edited by Sinfonian; 2012-11-03 at 04:25 PM.
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2012-11-03, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I wouldn't be so sure about that. If I'm not mistaken, Thou shalt not raise the dead (or somesuch) is one of hte laws of magic. Which seems to imply that it's possible, or at least that people have attempted it.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-11-03, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-03 at 04:44 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-11-03, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-03, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Which makes no sense, because the very first book of the series is where Harry gets one over on Morgan by pointing out that the Laws of Magic don't apply to creatures of the NeverNever, or non-humans in general. So if Necromancy involved binding Nevernever spirits, there wouldn't be a Law against it. Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-11-03, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
There are a couple of renditions of the 5th law. There is reaching beyond the "boarder of life and death". Only applicable to humans of course.
And then there is the "summoning and binding the unwilling spirits of the dead." Again the part about humans only is left unmentioned.
If you note the first definition doesn't qualify anything with "unwilling". Reaching across those boarders is badness period. No exception for bringing back gangbangers who got shot in a drug war. The second definition on the other hand lets you raise anyone who want as long as they are willing.
And of course, there are rumors of necromancers raising the dead, and we see one of the necromancers do exactly that in dead beat.
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2012-11-03, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-04, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
You know, as time goes on the world changes, with new fads and cultural shifts, it is important for the Dresden Files to stay abreast of these so as to continue building a realistic, recognizable world.
With that in mind, I have one serious question that I expect Jim to answer in this new book:
What does Bob think of Fifty Shades of Grey?
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2012-11-04, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
You didn't. I don't get it either. I suppose the RPG guys just messed up *shrugs*. Unfortunately this damages the credibility of using the RPG as evidence for speculation on the books .
EDIT: though he does say in the first book that the "binding" Law is the only one that applies to nonhumans.Last edited by 123456789blaaa; 2012-11-04 at 04:56 PM.
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2012-11-04, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
He thinks Harlequin Romances are quality literature, I'm pretty sure FSoG is right up his alley.
I think you've got it backwards - that scene is where he says the 'Binding' law - "Thou Shall Not Enthrall Another" specifically doesn't apply to nonhumans, with Toot-Toot. The prohibition against Necromancy is a separate Law.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-11-04, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I am tragically seperated from my books right now but IIRC Harry specifically points out that putting Toot-Toot in the circle with his Name is specifically not a violation of the "Binding" Law to Morrigan.
Remember that scene when Harry is fighting with Victor where Harry uses Kalshazzacks Name and specifically points out that he won't control him? He just lets Kalshazzak free because he doesn't want to break the "binding" Law.
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2012-11-04, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-11-04, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
If it helps, I've been using this interpretation of the binding Law on the DF forums and no one has said I'm wrong yet (142 posts).
It also seems strange to me that Harry would risk having his head bitten off and a dangerous warlock going free because he thinks controlling a demon is "icky".
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2012-11-04, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
It's Harry. He went through lots of effort in the first few books to keep Hell from getting its hooks into him, right up until the Denarians came into play and Hell proper just sort of got forgotten about. I don't find it terribly out of character for him to undo the bindings and just let it rampage, since he knew it'd go after its summoner anyways.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-11-04, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I'm pretty sure there's a difference between containing a creature in a magical circle (edit, and negotiating with it for its services) and binding it to your will.
Last edited by Thrawn183; 2012-11-04 at 05:57 PM.
Tarvek needs to die in a fire.
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2012-11-04, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Harry actually says both, that the law only applies to humans and that he wasn't binding Toot-Toot. Here's the quote from the book:
"Evening, Morgan. You know as well as I do that those laws apply to mortals. Not faeries. Especially for something as trivial as I just did. And I didn't break the Fourth Law. He had the choice whether to take my deal or not."
"The Fourth Law of Magic forbids the binding of any being against its will,""So I stepped in and cut your control over it. And didn't establish any of my own."If you're a Brandon Sanderson fan (or you want to start being one), check out The Sanderlanche podcast!