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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    That is the possibility. The prophecy also mention that Durkon will comeback to his home if he died, which means Durkon will die from V's incompetence.
    I'm sorry, but Holy non-sequitur Batman! How does it follow from "Durkon will die" that "V's incompetence will get Durkon killed during this particular fight"?

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rgrekejin View Post
    I'm sorry, but Holy non-sequitur Batman! How does it follow from "Durkon will die" that "V's incompetence will get Durkon killed during this particular fight"?
    I'd guess that it's a bit of a language issue. I don't think he meant exactly what you're thinking he meant. Check out his location, and the way he writes stuff -- I think it's a case of "English is not his first language".

    In cases like that, it seems prudent to do a little interpretation, rather than taking everything absolutely literally. See, now, although I could be wrong, I read his statement as:

    "That is a possibility. And since Durkon is prophecied to die, perhaps V's incompetence will be what kills him."

    It helps to be a little creative with your interpretation and allow some leeway when you're speaking with a person whose knowledge of your language is imperfect.

    I speak some Russian -- luckily, the real Russian speakers I've spoken to cut me some slack and don't take what I say literally, because otherwise I would have been punched in the nose, denied entry to countries I was visiting, and probably tossed out by my future wife the first time I said something garbled to her.
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    OotS does not try to follow reasonable rules specific tallies on this topic, but I will indulge anyway.

    I would expect Belkar to be dishing ~12 damage per hit. He looks like he connected 4 times.

    IIRC that bow is a +3 frost burst bow. It might be Mighty (or Haley could have other boosts on her). I would guess d8 + d6 + 4 per hit (~12 damage). Two hits. (Note that she hit 2 of 4 times, which suggests Tarquin is right -- Haley can pinpoint the exact square based on hearing Nale trundle around loudly. Also a 4th iterative attack suggests she might be a 15th level Rogue. Or she is Hasted from a potion.)

    The trap looks nasty (long red torso slash marks) and there are two hits. 20 points each maybe?

    Total damage: 112?

    Based on the fact Nale is not blind, he must be exactly one level higher than Durkon. If Nale has some booster spells up (very likely), I would expect him to have between 120 and 140 HP.
    So Nale is likely to hit negative HP pretty soon then. And with no Sabine, he can only trust Z. And they have no cleric anyway.

  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    I kind of feel sorry for Nale now. Think of it - he is despised by his father, Roy (in a way), and probably Xykon, and by many many friends of them, and even by some of his teammates. I think that if Nale will die, it will probably be a shameful death (unless he suddenly comes to his sences and protects Elan from Redcloak's Implosion).

    Now I have a feeling that something will ruin Order's plan. Something like big yellow glowing eyes in the smoke, or V suddenly coming up and trying to 'help'.

    About the death pool between Belkar and Durkon, I'd put my money on Belkar. My guess is Durkon will die at Kraagor's gate which closer to the dwarven lands (if it is already there, then my guess is wrong). I don't know what to think of the kobold, but his a-little-macabre-name makes me think that there is a chance that he is more powerful than Zz'dtri.

  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Given that he was almost certainly paralyzed by the Holy Word, I'd hoped that any theories about Kilkil secretly being a 20th-level sorcerer (or whatever) had been put to rest by now.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Given that he was almost certainly paralyzed by the Holy Word, I'd hoped that any theories about Kilkil secretly being a 20th-level sorcerer (or whatever) had been put to rest by now.
    So optimistic. No theories are ever put to rest on this board. The closest it's possible to come, is to leave the theory staggering and falling down relatively easily, and that takes Word of God.
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    I'd guess that it's a bit of a language issue. I don't think he meant exactly what you're thinking he meant. Check out his location, and the way he writes stuff -- I think it's a case of "English is not his first language".

    In cases like that, it seems prudent to do a little interpretation, rather than taking everything absolutely literally. See, now, although I could be wrong, I read his statement as:

    "That is a possibility. And since Durkon is prophecied to die, perhaps V's incompetence will be what kills him."

    It helps to be a little creative with your interpretation and allow some leeway when you're speaking with a person whose knowledge of your language is imperfect.

    I speak some Russian -- luckily, the real Russian speakers I've spoken to cut me some slack and don't take what I say literally, because otherwise I would have been punched in the nose, denied entry to countries I was visiting, and probably tossed out by my future wife the first time I said something garbled to her.
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    There are loads of alternate sub-races for halflings. The real question isn't if, it is a matter of which Belkar is. Also, I think some people have been missing the obvious... why must Barbarian be the favored class, Belkar is a Ranger first, and it could be his favored class, thereby he can have 20 levels of Ranger and it wouldn't affect his future cross-classing what so ever.

    Possibilities:

    Rogue FC:

    Tabit (I included this for fun, but it is a major idea... it might explain a lot)


    Ranger FC:

    Stoor Halflings (Unlikely, they prefer archery, and don't have the Halfling sling/thrown stone bonuses)

    Artic Halflings (Much better possibility, they have the sling/thrown bonus, and love to be Rangers... only odd thing is they're usually peaceful, but then Belkar could be an oddball)

    Furchin Halflings (Similar to the Artic Halfling, though slightly different... don't think Belkar is one, but it is an option)

    Barbarian FC:

    Jungle Halflings from Unearthed Arcana (my top pick for Barbarian, mainly because Ghostwise Halflings don't seem to be more obscure, so obscure I couldn't find them on the same site as all these others)

    So, with all these options, can we drop the Belkar would have a penalty from cross-classing... for all we know, Belkar could be a Stickian Halfling, who have the options of any class as their Favored Class, and Nale is a Stickian Human, who takes no penalties from cross-classing as long as he never takes Bard as a class, but if one takes Bard as their only non-divine spellcaster primary class, they can take any prestige class without penalties for cross-classing instead.

    As for Kilkil... he's alive but Paralyzed (no Xs on his eyes, just frozen in the same look)... Qarr had to save against Banishment, the door wouldn't protect him (but may have protected Malack who only needed to not hear Holy Word to be safe from it)... If Qarr failed his save he was Banished but might be dead too (not sure of his level), if he made his save then he was unaffected if Malack was shielded or he's deaf and possibly blind and Paralyzed if Malack was not shielded by the door.

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    I speculate that Elan may walk up behind Malack, smack Qarr (vile henchfiend who betrayed sweet Therkla) if he is still there, and then offer to help Malack get his shot at Nale. Malack will probably actually like Elan (or not hate him) as he is everything Nale is not, and has a few of Tarquin's positive qualities.


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    The Mummies were definitely taken by Holy Word.

    As for the people arguing about bows and accuracy at range, that is why in many games they added progressive penalties for longer ranges for any ranged weapon (need to recheck D&D, but I think they just have the shooting into melee penalty)... Star Wars Saga has interesting range penalties, might check it out if you need some alternate to the just fine D&D decision. BTW, I hear Saga is the basis for 4th Ed, so D&D 4th may also have such range penalties and such, and minor penalties to hit for cover as well.
    ----------------------------------------------

    Wait... someone said Nale is in a Blind Panic shouldn't that be a Deaf Panic in this case? I'm pretty sure he's not Blind

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Belkar is affected by Suggestion... but just as the dragon was able to be affected by V's suggestion and obey while he was a lizard, and then not understand him as a Elf, so too Belkar is affected by the spell, but acts on his own will until he can hear Nale...

    I do like someone's idea that Belkar will regain his hearing and then Nale will accidentally say something stupid like, "I wish someone would just poke me so I could wake up from this nightmare" or "This is getting old, just kill me already", or Tarquin will insult Nale as he gets his hearing back and mention how Sabine is gone because of Nale's bad planning which Nale will reply "Rip my heart out, why don't you.", at which point Belkar will obey without resistance...

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet_Goddess View Post
    I do like someone's idea that Belkar will regain his hearing and then Nale will accidentally say something stupid like, "I wish someone would just poke me so I could wake up from this nightmare" or "This is getting old, just kill me already", or Tarquin will insult Nale as he gets his hearing back and mention how Sabine is gone because of Nale's bad planning which Nale will reply "Rip my heart out, why don't you.", at which point Belkar will obey without resistance...
    While this would be funny, I don't think it's going to happen. Regardless of whether Belkar was affected by the spell or not, I suspect that if Nale's going to die here (I suspect he won't, though I have no idea how he'll survive), it'll be well before the deafness wears off.

  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet_Goddess View Post
    I do like someone's idea that Belkar will regain his hearing and then Nale will accidentally say something stupid like, "I wish someone would just poke me so I could wake up from this nightmare" or "This is getting old, just kill me already", or Tarquin will insult Nale as he gets his hearing back and mention how Sabine is gone because of Nale's bad planning which Nale will reply "Rip my heart out, why don't you.", at which point Belkar will obey without resistance...
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Of course, more likely than either possibility is that Rich chose the chance for a throwaway legal joke over consistency with a storyline he hadn't yet invented.
    This seems like trying to nail down whether we are talking about the cake you have, or the cake you eat, when it is the same cake. These don't conflict, there is no need to choose one over the other.
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  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet_Goddess View Post
    There are loads of alternate sub-races for halflings. The real question isn't if, it is a matter of which Belkar is. Also, I think some people have been missing the obvious... why must Barbarian be the favored class, Belkar is a Ranger first, and it could be his favored class, thereby he can have 20 levels of Ranger and it wouldn't affect his future cross-classing what so ever.
    Because in PHB the favored is Rogue and as such both of Belkars classes are unfavored. Of course he may be one of your proposals, C&LGeekery had some discussion about it. On the other hand there's been no hint to anything like that... Whatever, if I remember correctly Belkars most likely first choice of Favored Enemy should be Human - which gives him the boost to be the only, real and sexy shoeless god of war!!
    - beware Tarquin!

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet_Goddess View Post
    Qarr had to save against Banishment, the door wouldn't protect him (but may have protected Malack who only needed to not hear Holy Word to be safe from it)... If Qarr failed his save he was Banished but might be dead too (not sure of his level), if he made his save then he was unaffected if Malack was shielded or he's deaf and possibly blind and Paralyzed if Malack was not shielded by the door.

    The Mummies were definitely taken by Holy Word.
    Qarr has at least 8 levels of Sorcerer, so there is no way how he could be dead. Anyway I believe the door blocked the line of effect of the Holy Word, so Malack and Qarr are unaffected regardless of their level.

    The mummies have also at least 8HD, so they are not destroyed. They probably can't be paralyzed either, so the Order will have to deal with them soon.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Why do you all hate V so much

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ghoul-n View Post
    Why do you all hate V so much
    You mean, besides the fact that (s)he murdered tens of thousands of innocents at the very least with the Familicide spell?

    I'm no Vaarsuvius-hater myself, but I can see where those that do are coming from.
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ghoul-n View Post
    Why do you all hate V so much
    Next time, ask why people hate Celia. Or Miko. Or if Familicide was morally justified at the time.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    People just keep saying that s/he'll screw things up somehow, and this is totally uncalled for D:

    I mean, s/he fails much only if going all solo on epic liches/epic dragons (that familicide thingy)/epic abjurations/trap-filled-mummy-crawling dungeons/romantic dinners. In party s/he should be fine.
    Last edited by ghoul-n; 2012-08-16 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ghoul-n View Post
    People just keep saying that s/he'll screw things up somehow, and this is totally uncalled for
    My issue with this isn't necessarily that V wouldn't screw it up, it's that there's not really any reason to expect V to show up. She's a floor below, running around sacred stupid, and I'm not even sure she's running in the right direction to be anywhere near the ambush. No, V is isolated for some other reason.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperordaniel View Post
    You mean, besides the fact that (s)he murdered tens of thousands of innocents at the very least with the Familicide spell?
    So... someone made a mistake which they deeply, sincerely, and plainly regret and wish to repent for, and your response is eternal hatred and loathing? seriously?

    I get the hatred of Miko or Celia, because they act in stupid ways by choice and have no intent of changing. V did something without truly considering its consequences and feels horrible for doing so, so I cannot fathom why anyone honestly loathes anyone for making a mistake...
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    So... someone made a mistake which they deeply, sincerely, and plainly regret and wish to repent for, and your response is eternal hatred and loathing? seriously?

    I get the hatred of Miko or Celia, because they act in stupid ways by choice and have no intent of changing. V did something without truly considering its consequences and feels horrible for doing so, so I cannot fathom why anyone honestly loathes anyone for making a mistake...
    Vaarsuvius committed mass murder. Knowingly. Gleefully.

    Now, Vaarsuvius has realized that the mass murder hit mostly-humans, instead of just the dragons s/he meant to slaughter. And, upon that realization, Vaarsuvius is stricken with horrible guilt...that s/he made a mistake and failed to make sure to spell would only hit the type of sapients s/he wanted to kill. That guilt does not make him/her any less vile than s/he was before we all learned about the Draketooths dying. It just highlights how very far s/he is from comprehending how monstrous what s/he did was, and would have been even if it had had no unintended results. How monstrous what s/he immediately bragged of having done was.

    No, "Vaarsuvius feels sorry for something in some way related to the Familicide" is not redemption. In fact, whenever I read a post like yours, I worry that it's what we're going to get fobbed off with instead of redemption. But then I look at the Rich quote in my sig, and I conclude it's unlikely he'd mistake Vaarsuvius' recent unhappiness for redemption, and I stop worrying.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-08-16 at 11:10 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    It's not unreasonable to think V may screw things up. The Order have set up a smart ambush, and are executing it flawlessly. Ergo, the universe is in a state of unrest, and must soon resolve this imbalance by knocking them down to the bumbling semi-trained quasi-professionals we know them to be. One way this could happen is a panicking, emotionally unstable V pass-walling to the worst possibly place at the worst possible time.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    So... someone made a mistake which they deeply, sincerely, and plainly regret and wish to repent for, and your response is eternal hatred and loathing? seriously?
    You missed the second part of my post, where I specifically stated that I didn't hate V; the first part of the post is just me stating the main reason as to why many other forumites do hate V.
    Last edited by Emperordaniel; 2012-08-16 at 11:08 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    To bring us back closer to the current strip, I'm not sure it has been pointed out explicitly but according to this comic, Suggestion has no somatic component so it doesn't matter that Belkar can't hear. I thought it didn't matter if the target heard any casting but this way it is spelled out, so to speak.

    I'm pretty sure the use of spell names when casting is more so the reader knows what is going on rather than representing what others would hear.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    It doesn't matter that Belkar doesn't know Nale cast Suggestion.

    It does matter that Belkar was unable to hear the suggestion.

    You appear to be under the impression that "somatic" means "verbal." It doesn't; it means gestures. You also seem to have missed the second panel of the comic you linked, where Vaarsuvius mentions that Suggestion requires the subject understand your speech.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    To bring us back closer to the current strip, I'm not sure it has been pointed out explicitly but according to this comic, Suggestion has no somatic component so it doesn't matter that Belkar can't hear. I thought it didn't matter if the target heard any casting but this way it is spelled out, so to speak.

    I'm pretty sure the use of spell names when casting is more so the reader knows what is going on rather than representing what others would hear.
    From the SRD:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Verbal (V)
    A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

    Somatic (S)
    A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
    Suggestion has a verbal component in it; thus, it does matter - a lot - that Belkar isn't able to hear.
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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    Qarr has at least 8 levels of Sorcerer, so there is no way how he could be dead. Anyway I believe the door blocked the line of effect of the Holy Word, so Malack and Qarr are unaffected regardless of their level.

    The mummies have also at least 8HD, so they are not destroyed. They probably can't be paralyzed either, so the Order will have to deal with them soon.
    I still think that it's possible that Malack and Qarr wereoutside the area of affect of the spell, and also possible, though less likely, that the mummies were, too.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperordaniel View Post
    From the SRD:



    Suggestion has a verbal component in it; thus, it does matter - a lot - that Belkar isn't able to hear.
    Actually, it matters because the spell has the [language dependent] tag.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperordaniel View Post
    From the SRD:



    Suggestion has a verbal component in it; thus, it does matter - a lot - that Belkar isn't able to hear.
    It's a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the rules that the visual effect of the magic still works, but the spell has no practical effect because the subject can't hear the instruction.

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    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    How monstrous what s/he immediately bragged of having done was.
    Where is this, exactly?
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    English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Thank you, FujinAkari.
    Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post

  30. - Top - End - #480
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

    To the mother dragon- immediately after doing it:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine

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