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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    I think this is a justified question. Not just for the specific issue of women in adventuring parties, but actually about anything that is not a generic adventuring campaign.
    With my Bronze Age setting, I always end up creating global thieves guilds and large wizard societies with huge libraries, and then have to go back a few steps because it's turning into something completely different than it was supposed to. Or not ending up with elves that are humans with pointy ears, and so on.

    I think the main point is, that the goal is not to attempt to create a realistic representation of a woman in an adventuring party, whatever that would be, but to create a plausible appearance of femininity. And I think you pretty much have to be a bit sexst about that, but you can keep it within non-offensive limits. No, of course it does not mean that all woman do X or that only women do X. But I think in all artistic representations, you take a lot of visual and narrative clues that hint at a certain personalty that appears familiar to us. And I think that's good enough.

    Here a few ideas for this specific case:
    - Even adventurers do not spend their whole time in armor. Traveling outfits would have to be practical, but when you stay for a few days in town or are going to see the local lord while not comming immediately from the battlefield, female characters could very well be wearing whatever is the common outfit for women. We got more than enough police officers, firefighters, rescue workers, and soldiers, who are putting on a dress when the occasion calls for it; this is completely plausible.
    - A female character could take the initiative when dealing with women or children, simply because they would probably appear less threatening than the huge guys with the giant axes and scars on their faces.
    - I guess in most fantasy societies, even women who become soldiers grew up during their childhood doing girls tasks at their home. Even if they stopped doing all of it when they were 12 and started to learn fighting or magic, they still would have better skill at the basics than the average male adventurer.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    When observing the lady gamers within my group, they don't seem to show any big overt traits of femininity. They tend to be more the little mannerisms, things you have to pay attention to or you might miss it.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    On the one hand, a female character can be whatever she wants to be, including a heroic, tough, athletic fighter etc.
    On the other hand, people tend to associate those traits - and indeed most traits an adventurer can have - as masculine.

    My favorite strong female character - because she is strong in a female way, and part of her strength comes from her female traits - is Katara from Avatar.
    Her desire to protect others clearly stems from something we associate with femininity - motherly behavior (and she is actually called the mother of her group in one episode). It's more than just "stand between the enemy and my friends", because she also wants to protect them emotionally, given them advice, aid them in achieving their personal goals and generally just be there for them when they need her. That also extends to people outside of her group.
    But she can also take charge when needed and is a strong fighter. In addition to being a well-developed, diverse character alongside other female well-developed diverse characters.

    A lot of strong female characters are just a male personality in a female body. As others have said, that's not a bad thing - as long as you still make them full, mature and diverse characters.

    So please, don't make your character a stereotype. Don't take an existing character and slap on some stereotypical female traits.
    If you are not sure how to play a female character, do not overemphasize that she is female. If you do you will just produce a caricature.
    Do little things, ideally those that grow organically from the rest of her character. What i said above is an example, it's only a small step from protective to caring and nurturing - yet we associate it with being female. If you instead have a studious, intelligent character you could add a penchant for being neat and orderly, which we also tend to see as feminine. If she is a social chameleon, sneaky or roguish, you can add knowledge about dresses, trneds and makeup - those would help her blend in and are feminine.
    Consider other such traits - seductive (strong at negotiating and getting what she wants), emotional manipulator (can be used against enemies), homemaker (strong at organizing things) and so on.

    Combine feminine traits with their associated strengths if you want to play a female adventurer.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    But what is a "male personality in a female body"? Do these actually exist?(outside of horribly played characters)
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerlis View Post
    But what is a "male personality in a female body"? Do these actually exist?(outside of horribly played characters)
    Look at lots of "strong women" in Hollywood movies. They're just the standard action here, but played by a woman.
    Now granted, action movie heroes are generally never well-developed characters, sure - but then don't call a female action movie hero a strong female rolemodel. Of course you shouldn't call male action movie heroes male rolemodels either.

    Sorry, bit of a pet-peeve of mine.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    If I asked you to make a "feminine" Paladin, how would you do it?

    Joan of Arc?

    Assassin? Barbarian? Cleric? Wizard?

    Assassin is kinda broad, but... Boudicca the barbarian? Japanese maiko for clerics? Morgan le Fay as wizard?

    Remember, female != feminine

    Finally, PLEASE, don't make female warriors wear skirts or dresses as standard combat gear, or skin-tight breastplates that hug each breast individually. That's rather blatantly stupid. And certainly no chainmail bikinis.
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2012-08-10 at 08:47 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    The western world lives in a weird time, where gender is not supposed to matter, but it does.

    Either you mention traits associated with femininity, and you're sexist. Or you don't mention it, then you're misogynistic.
    Of course, both are wrong, but it helps to realize that the public discourse has accidentally created a paradox. Since two opposites can't be true at the same time, it's easy to see that at least one and probably both have significant errors. And that means going a step back and accepting that "making generalizations based on gender are not always sexist" and "being indifferent to aspects of gender does not mean you oppose them".

    "Can a woman wear a dress to be percieved as more feminine?" - Yes.
    "Does a woman have to wear a dress to be treated as feminine?" - No.

    Unfortunately, the field of Gender Studies almost always seems to be about women discussing their own self-perception with other women. Or if you want to be a bit more confrontatial "women legitimizing themselves to themselves". Or if you want to be really offensive "grumpy women ranting about other women who are happy without being grumpy".

    But I think all the interesting stuff happens in the middle where masculine and feminine become difficult to clearly seperate. My personal theory of gender is, that we all want people to see us in a certain way, and we also want to reassure us that we really are that way. And we do this displaying traits. The way we dress, the way we talk, the way we move, the oppinions we express, the people we associate with, the food we eat, the way we cut our hair, and so on and on... And a great number, if not most of these traits, are associated with the sexes. A dress is associated with female, a suit is associated with male. In some people, the male associated traits are very dominant, and we consider these people to be masculine. In others the female associated traits are very dominant and we consider these people to be feminine.
    I would say a basebal cap is male associated, but simply wearing one does not make a female person appear masculine. There are often still much more very visible traits that are female associated and by far outweigh it. When we see a person who is visible female, we often regard her as "rather masculine", even if the male associated traits are much less dominant than in an average male person. Because it is unexpected and so it stands out more. However, each trait by itself does not tell much, if anything about the persons gender identity. It is the whole of all traits combined, that makes gender.

    Now in the case of an RPG character, we could have "plate armor", "a sword", "High strength", "commanding voice", "short patience" as some of the primary traits we have given the character. And all of these traits would be "male associated". Even though we still don't know anything about the characters personalty or gender.
    Here are two pictures from fictional characters, and I don't really know any of them very well.
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    But just from the look they appear like all these masculine traits could apply to them.
    In fiction, especially in an RPG, we don't have a completely character but are only working with a very small set of traits that become relevant. Which I think is the point of the opening post: All the traits that are relevant to a simple RPG character like this are male associated. However, often we still want the character to appear as a blend of male and female associated traits that represents the concept for the character best. And for that, we need to make some female assocated become relevant to the character in the game. Even though these traits would normally not be relevant.
    And I think that is the important point: When we are dealing with fictional characters, highlighting traits in the character does not mean that the traits are essential. Does the character wear a dress or not? It is not essential. This trait by itself doesn't make or break anything, this trait is not a defining part of being a woman or being feminine. And by highlighting it, we are not making such a claim! We are just counterbalancing the male associated traits, that have become disproportionally dominant because they are of great relevance to the medium.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    The OP's question is malformed.

    You can easily make a "feminine" character by mixing in traits that are coded as feminine by modern standards. Of course, this is likely to feel sexist - because it is. The problem is that you're starting with "a character" and then tacking on femininity - so of course the character's femininity is going to feel superfluous and stereotyped.

    Look at Iseria. No, nothing you describe about her sounds particularly feminine. But... none of it sounds particularly masculine, either. The description offered is quite gender-neutral. Problem is that if you presented that description for a male character, it'd sound fine, but you think a female character must be conspicuously female in a way a male character doesn't have to be conspicuously male. It's the "Ms. Pac-Man" thing of "just take a male character with nothing particularly male about him, and stick on a pink bow".

    Now, this is a valid problem to face as a roleplayer or as a writer. Male is the default in society so people will read what reasonably ought to be neutral traits as masculine by default. At the same time, "masculine" traits have positive associations while "feminine" traits have negative ones - and positive traits become associated with masculinity while negative traits become associated with femininity - so if you want to make a strong, capable character much of the traits you'll choose will read as masculine simply because they entail strength and capability.

    There's no quick fix to this. Starting from this point and saying "how do I make my female characters feminine?" leaves you stuck in the same framework of treating "female" as the marked category - of having, not male and female characters, but "characters" (who are men) and "female characters" (who are either men-with-boobs or sexist stereotypes). What you need to do is consider the culture and setting in which the character developed - where standards of femininity and masculinity may be quite different to your own - and think about how being male or female influenced that development. A female character may have an identical "internal" makeup (in terms of aptitudes, inclinations, etc.) to a male character, but have faced different expectations from family and society growing up, and developed different feelings about herself and her abilities. Maybe she has some "girly" trait that she's free to embrace where a male character might be embarrassed about it - or maybe she's embarrassed about it herself because it gets her dismissed as "just a silly girl". Same for "manly" traits. Gender, masculinity/femininity aren't simply innate things - they're not just what you are but what you do, and how people interpret what you do.

    This isn't something you can do entirely on your own - it require some discussion with your GM to ensure you're both on the same page as to how these things operate in the game's setting. It's also not something you do only for female characters, which is key - the same treatment of "how did this aspect of the character influence development?" applies to male characters as well, or indeed other/nonbinary characters, and has to if you're to avoid simply assembling a character out of cliches.

    How would I make a feminine paladin etc.? It'd depend entirely on the setting. How usual or unusual is it for women to take that path in life? What else might she have been expected to do? What is considered feminine or masculine by the people around her? What I'd consider very important to not do would be coming up with a solid character concept I'd be happy to play as male and then adding unnecessary frills or compromising practicality or ability in the name of feminizing the character.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    At the same time, "masculine" traits have positive associations while "feminine" traits have negative ones - and positive traits become associated with masculinity while negative traits become associated with femininity
    I think with such a people-hating oppinion, there isn't a solution to anything!

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    The OP's question is malformed.

    Snip
    Sorry. Maybe I need to do more studies in sociology. I tried to write it as best I could....

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Morithias View Post
    Sorry. Maybe I need to do more studies in sociology. I tried to write it as best I could....
    Oh, I don't mean you expressed yourself badly. I mean you're asking the wrong question - coming at the problem from the wrong angle. The problem isn't "I can play characters, but how do I play women characters?" Asking it that way sabotages any attempt to properly address the problem. The real problem is "how do I incorporate gender in to a character so that it feels like a real and natural part of their identity rather than something secondary and tacked-on?".

    The impression I got from your OP was that you were perfectly well aware of how to make "feminine" characters by playing to standard female stereotypes, but that you didn't want to do that. Well, to escape that trap, you need to back up and take a different initial approach.

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Oh, I don't mean you expressed yourself badly. I mean you're asking the wrong question - coming at the problem from the wrong angle. The problem isn't "I can play characters, but how do I play women characters?" Asking it that way sabotages any attempt to properly address the problem. The real problem is "how do I incorporate gender in to a character so that it feels like a real and natural part of their identity rather than something secondary and tacked-on?".

    The impression I got from your OP was that you were perfectly well aware of how to make "feminine" characters by playing to standard female stereotypes, but that you didn't want to do that. Well, to escape that trap, you need to back up and take a different initial approach.
    How very wise. I will use what people have commented on in this thread and do some more research to help me. Thanks for your insight.

    As for feminine characters that play to female stereotypes...hmmm.

    Well there was obviously the female healer/white mage (done because no one in the group ever played a cleric).

    The most famous "Female" character I have if you can call "her" that (changling and all) was a Deathstalker Assassin who was hyperactive and happy-go-lucky (Not sure if she was insane, or just born that way seeing how she murdered a whole cult of Bhaal by the time she was level 3).

    Then there was the Antro-scorpion Paladin, who was all about stopping a second world war...her personality was all about finding her lost civilization, but was very "paladin" you know help the innocent, fight evil, etc.

    I think you're right, maybe I'm thinking about this wrong...these characters are fairly well made... I mean they're not Tolkien level, but they have personalities...

    Thanks for the insight again.

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    In traditional patriarchal cultures, "feminine" traits are generally viewed as empathic, submissive, or evasive. "Masculine" traits are generally viewed as stoic, aggressive, or direct. China embodies this in the Yin and Yang concept, but it's pretty prevalent throughout most European and Asian cultures (and maybe African and native cultures too? I'm honestly not as familiar with them).

    This is why a male spy is James Bond, whose deception is really just a quick cover for his violent antics, and a female spy is the Black Widow, who couples her fighting skill with exceptional deceit and insight. A masculine warrior is Conan, and a feminine warrior is a ninja. This is also why a lot of tactics get called "dishonorable" in Western culture; because they aren't direct and openly aggressive. It's also the root of the school idea that men beat you up, and women ruin your social standing. One group fights directly, the other indirectly.


    Now, if you're in a non-patriarchal society, or a society whose gender roles are differently defined, all of this goes out the window. Studies are notoriously bad at differentiating physical traits from cultural ones, so any attempt to gauge which "masculine" and "feminine" traits are actual, and which are applied, is going to become a clustermess with astonishing speed. But cultural traits have a way of resonating, so even if you're not sexist, you've probably got a subconscious idea that X is the way that most men or women behave.
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
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    Yeah and the fact that D&D doesn't have any real culture of it's own...ow, my head hurts.

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    I suspect part of the issue is that a lot of traits necessary to an adventurer are considered masculine (and a disproportionate number of feminine aggressive traits are considered evil). So a female adventurer comes across as more masculine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Finally, PLEASE, don't make female warriors wear skirts or dresses as standard combat gear, or skin-tight breastplates that hug each breast individually. That's rather blatantly stupid. And certainly no chainmail bikinis.[/COLOR]
    Ironically, a lot of historical armor involves skirts. On both sexes.
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Gender, masculinity/femininity aren't simply innate things
    {{scrubbed}}

    It's also completely irrelevant to the thread at hand. The question isn't the innateness of gender differences. (Which is way off topic and a little too close to kindling for my taste.) The question is how to make a character who is read by (presumably) modern western earthbound humans as feminine, without either being a faceless cipher with some boobs added for cosmetic flair, or a gross stereotype. That's entirely about characterization tips.
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-08-13 at 11:17 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Actually, yes - a lot of things we consider masculine and feminine are purely cultural.

    External expressions of gender are - clothes, makeup, hobbies. Some cultures consider it manly to be good at drawing, cooking or even sewing, while others consider it feminine. Others have dresses and skirts for men and clothing we consider masculine for women.

    But it goes beyond skin-deep. Even the "women are more submissive"-part is likely not innately female - while it holds true in major cultures, it doesn't in smaller ones.

    It is really really hard to pin down what exactly is biologically anchored male or female behavior. Not everything is cultural, obviously - but way more than you may think is.


    Now, does that mean that indivduals can't have traits we consider masculine or feminine innately? No - but that doesn't mean that they are innately male or female because they have those traits - it just means that they have those traits, and that we consider them to be either due to our culture.



    Gender identity is merely the sum of all parts, and certainly based on culture. Realizing that is in my opinion an important step to making a non-stereotypical character of either gender - because it enables you to mix up masculine and feminine traits without presenting the wrong gender identity to others.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Spoilering my response to Reluctance, as it's OT but I don't want to let that slide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    I double dog dare you to stop by the LGBT+ thread and say this. Or are you going to argue that trannies are agents sent by the patriarchy to reinforce the gender binary?
    Firstly: what the hell, seriously? Aside from what a gross misrepresentation of and overreaction to what I actually said that is, why are you bringing transphobic slurs into the discussion and then telling me off for being off topic and "kindling"?

    Secondly: I avoid Friendly Banter most of the time, but you're quite welcome to link this there and invite anyone in the LGBT thread who finds the suggestion that gender isn't simple to be objectionable to PM me; I don't really expect you'll find that many.

    Since you cut off your quote of me at exactly the point that makes it look worst, let me repeat the whole thing for context:
    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Gender, masculinity/femininity aren't simply innate things - they're not just what you are but what you do, and how people interpret what you do.
    In other words: gender, and especially masculinity and femininity, are not only innate properties of a person. They are not just what someone is. They are also what someone does and how they're perceived by others. A person may tend toward some behaviours and avoid others precisely because of how their culture codes those behaviours as masculine or feminine, and how that lines up with their own identification and desired presentation. You can't simply say "this character is female, so she should have some feminine traits, such as X, Y and Z". You have to consider what messages she's received from society about her femininity during the formation of her personality and what things about herself she may have attempted to cultivate vs. what she may have preferred to downplay or suppress as a result of that. Otherwise you end up with precisely the problem you mention here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    It's also completely irrelevant to the thread at hand. The question isn't the innateness of gender differences. (Which is way off topic and a little too close to kindling for my taste.) The question is how to make a character who is read by (presumably) modern western earthbound humans as feminine, without either being a faceless cipher with some boobs added for cosmetic flair, or a gross stereotype. That's entirely about characterization tips.
    It's entirely relevant, in the context in which and to the extent that I brought it up. The OP is playing in his own cultural context, but playing a character in their own, different culture (which is likely a mix of historical and fictional ideas, modern biases, and adaptations for compatibility with modern sensibilities). Both of those contexts have to be borne in mind if you want to craft a character who plausibly expresses her gender in her own setting, and is also read accordingly by the audience around the table. Since that was precisely my point - "deciding the character is male or female, masculine or feminine, isn't enough - you have to think about how their culture views those things, and how they feel about and react to those views" - the extent to which gender is simply innate is in fact very relevant to it.

    ETA: I should not that I'm not an expert on gender identity/expression/presentation or trans* issues and wouldn't want to seem like I'm trying to present myself as such - I'm just trying to relay what little understanding I have managed to pick up on this topic. The above is intended to be as relevant to this topic, not a general overview of "how to gender" or anything like it.
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2012-08-10 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    ETA: I should not that I'm not an expert on gender identity/expression/presentation or trans* issues and wouldn't want to seem like I'm trying to present myself as such - I'm just trying to relay what little understanding I have managed to pick up on this topic. The above is intended to be as relevant to this topic, not a general overview of "how to gender" or anything like it.
    My beef is that the party line your understanding comes from led to the sort of attitude in the phrase I used. Wording, slur, and all. I tend to get pissy when information from unreliable sources is touted as truth.


    More on topic, but spoliered for being a little off.
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    How often are male stock characters treated as "doing it wrong"? If the only way to do female characters "right" involves an in-depth exploration of their culture and personal history, people will tend to stick with males simply because they can't be arsed to do all that work for a bit part, or because they want to do their character in broad strokes and fill things in as they get a sense of the character in play.

    Which is why I'd rather focus on good ways to either make decent feminine tropes, or to feminize existing tropes without making a mess of the whole thing. High-minded ideology gets in the way of practical work.
    Last edited by Reluctance; 2012-08-10 at 07:09 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Serafina View Post
    Look at lots of "strong women" in Hollywood movies. They're just the standard action here, but played by a woman.
    Now granted, action movie heroes are generally never well-developed characters, sure - but then don't call a female action movie hero a strong female rolemodel. Of course you shouldn't call male action movie heroes male rolemodels either.

    Sorry, bit of a pet-peeve of mine.
    Hmmm, first thing that comes to mind is the army chick from Aliens, and she seemed very womanly to me.
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
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    My beef is that the party line your understanding comes from led to the sort of attitude in the phrase I used. Wording, slur, and all. I tend to get pissy when information from unreliable sources is touted as truth.
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    No. It doesn't. You are making a mistaken assumption about my "party line" and the source of my information. Most of what understanding of these issues I have comes from a trans female writer who has faced the "trans women are agents of the patriarchy!" crap herself. Look, if this is a sensitive topic for you on which you've had to deal with a lot of crap yourself before, then I'm sorry that I touched a nerve - but I really cannot see the conclusion you've jumped to as justified, nor your response as proportionate.

    I want to be clear as to just what you're disagreeing with me on. Is it your view that gender and masculinity/femininity are simply and entirely innate, with no cultural or social component at all? And if so, are you really of the view that I couldn't possibly think the question is more complex than that without being a transphobic jackass? Because I'd find that contention quite remarkable (if you do back the former, surely you're aware it's not uncontroversial even among trans* people?), and have to wonder if you didn't just read "are not simply innate" as "simply are not innate" in my first response. If we do have a real disagreement here, though, perhaps it would be better taken to PMs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    More on topic, but spoliered for being a little off.
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    How often are male stock characters treated as "doing it wrong"? If the only way to do female characters "right" involves an in-depth exploration of their culture and personal history, people will tend to stick with males simply because they can't be arsed to do all that work for a bit part, or because they want to do their character in broad strokes and fill things in as they get a sense of the character in play.

    Which is why I'd rather focus on good ways to either make decent feminine tropes, or to feminize existing tropes without making a mess of the whole thing. High-minded ideology gets in the way of practical work.
    (Not spoilered, because it seems plenty on-topic to me.)

    That's actually a fair point. Although I've gone on at some length in responding to you, what I'm saying does not necessitate a huge investment of extra time and work to create a female character than a male one. It simply requires keeping context in mind rather than treating femininity as a tacked-on extra separate from "a character", to help ensure that you create characters who are female, not "female characters" where they're either reskinned males or "about" being female. My point is also that a female adventurer in a D&D-ish setting should be expressing her femininity in a way that makes sense for that context, not just the context of the players.
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2012-08-10 at 07:59 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Conners's Avatar

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerlis View Post
    Hmmm, first thing that comes to mind is the army chick from Aliens, and she seemed very womanly to me.
    She is an all-time-favourite, too.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerlis View Post
    But what is a "male personality in a female body"? Do these actually exist?(outside of horribly played characters)
    In extreme cases, that could be what transsexualism is, I think.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    I suppose you could just go with what Jack Nicholson's writer character in As Good As It Gets said when asked how he wrote female characters so well: "I think of a man, then remove reason and accountability."




  25. - Top - End - #55
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Don't focus on making your character feminine, focus on making her interesting.

    Some people say men and women are completely different, but they're not. People are different. On average men might be more like this, and women more like that, but adventurers are never average. They are exceptional. And they're not exceptional by being male or female, they're exceptional by being who they are, and being male or female is just one tiny aspect of that.

    To make a character interesting, it's worth subverting or otherwise addressing some cliches. And in how you do that, you could also address the character's gender.

    Here's an example from a long-running Earthdawn campaign: I played a human female warrior and at some point the GM encouraged us to pick a Passion (basically a god) that we were closest to. For a warrior, the cliche is of course to pick a god of warrior, or some other highly masculine aspect. I picked the Passion of healing, hearth and home. This worked out very well, seeping into various other aspects, and eventually she became a Questor (a sort of priest) of that Passion.

    In Earthdawn, Warrior isn't the only combat class (discipline). Skyraiders tend to be all about aggression, Swordmasters all about showing off their skill, and Warriors tend to be about pragmatism, protecting the group, serving the needs of the group, overcoming the obstacles the group faces, etc. How much you really make of that is pretty much up to the player, but I tried to mix that with he compassion of her Passion. She'd gladly risk her life to save a dysfunctional group member who hated her, she'd viciously attack any enemies of the group, while trying not to make any personal enemies herself, and she wouldn't hesitate to put herself in the way of danger in order to protect or save her group members. At the same time she was very self-sufficient; she could take more damage than even the Troll Skyraider, she was faster and stealthier than anyone except the Elf Archer, she could leap around the battlefield dealing terrible amounts of damage, but she always tried to use her mobility to protect the weaker members of the group (two spell casters and an archer) and save them from the trouble they invariably got themselves into. She lacked the social ability to be the social heart of the group, but I never had the impression she wasn't female enough. Even if a male character could also have done all those things.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Honestly, I try to avoid incorporating gender into personality. Character, perhaps, but not personality.

    Essentially, I come up with an idea for personality, then I chose which gender I want the character to be (often by flipping a coin). There are unmasculine men and unfeminine women; any character can belong to any gender.

    Generally, I find that attempts to incorporate gender into roleplaying (beyond the biological) end up fairly contrived, though that might just be because I'm not a very good actor.
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conners View Post
    She is an all-time-favourite, too.
    I remember hearing that when Ripley was being written for Alien, the writers didn't know if the character would be male or female. This kept out any perceived need to duct tape some "femininity" onto the character. She is who she is, which is part of why she works so well.

    People are people. Even the female people. Let's see, chased by a monster. Fall down and get eaten, or hijack a powersuit cargo loader. Which is a better survival trait?

    Of course, I'm generally only considered a "manly man" if the beard gives extra points, so I might be wondering how to make my characters feel more "masculine."

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    One of my friends was helping me with a game I was writing. She gave me a few pointers on how to write a female character. The concept for the character was supposed to be a soldier/mechanic for a mercenary group.

    The Tips:
    • Less likely to use brute force.
    • More likely to weigh the pros and cons before acting.
    • Will attack when they can get away with it or catch the person off guard.
    • Not likely to fight fair.
    • Don't have her have a female assistant or else people will think she is a lesbian.(Her mom gave me that advice)
    • More likely to use subterfuge.


    As far as feminine characters in action movies, one of the soldiers in Starship Troopers comes to mind. Her entire reason for joining the military was so she could get a license to have children. Sadly she dies halfway through the movie.
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by huttj509 View Post
    I remember hearing that when Ripley was being written for Alien, the writers didn't know if the character would be male or female. This kept out any perceived need to duct tape some "femininity" onto the character.
    Except for the part where she spends the last act of the movie running around in her underwear, I presume.
    Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: What makes a character "Feminine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Except for the part where she spends the last act of the movie running around in her underwear, I presume.
    Works for that too.

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