Paladin without a Code

[Morithias]

Are there any classes that work well for this concept? The character is suppose to basically be a paragon of virtue without any real divine backing. She doesn't worship the gods, she doesn't really care about the angels outside of "lets work together to fight evil" and her code can be summed up as "what makes the most moral sense logically".

I found the "Holy Monk" in Dragon 310 but....no...it says "As Paladin" and I do not need to be running a class that requires everything but intelligence to work. (Charisma for smite, wisdom for monk, dex for ac, str for damage, con for con).

Any suggestions on a class that's good for beating down evil but has no real alliance to a higher power? (Which sadly gets rid of basically everything in the BOED).

Edit: What I mean by no real alliance is "no powers that are divine in nature". Divine spells, divine grace, divine health, etc is out the window. You could literally slaughter every god in existence and it wouldn't affect her, for she is her own avatar, her own symbol of what is good and pure. Truth, Love, Courage, that's all someone really needs to be a good person right?

(No I haven't been watching Spoony lately why do you ask?)

[Xefas]

How about the Crusader from the Tome of Battle? It's a Paladin with no code, and a couple dozen variations on smiting.

[Kish]

Are there any classes that work well for this concept? The character is suppose to basically be a paragon of virtue without any real divine backing. She doesn't worship the gods, she doesn't really care about the angels outside of "lets work together to fight evil" and her code can be summed up as "what makes the most moral sense logically".

Holy Liberator, if you're okay with being Chaotic.

(Note that only the bolded part creates a problem for a bog-standard 3.xed paladin in most settings, many players' misapprehension that paladins are servants of the gods aside.)

[toapat]

I built out a paladin on the homebrew forums that only needs to do what is right, with a bit of leniency (Not nearly the same level as Grey Guardsman), and who gets to goto a paladin specific afterlife.

I think the Crusader is pretty much a non-aligned, non-coded paladin also.

[navar100]

Try the class known as Paladin. Roleplay as you feel. Claim connection to the Celestial plane itself due to your vigilance if you need justification for why you have Paladinesque abilities.

[Templarkommando]

The way I've always thought this could be done is just play a martial character with high moral fiber. As far as I am concerned, this makes fighter or knight a primary candidate. That said there may be some optimization concerns for both of these classes.

[Loth17]

How about the Paragon class, its not specificly good against evil but can be made to be good against anything.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4204.0

[Devils_Advocate]

Are you asking for how to do this in any edition, or should this be in the d20 forum?

The character is suppose to basically be a paragon of virtue without any real divine backing. She doesn't worship the gods, she doesn't really care about the angels outside of "lets work together to fight evil" and her code can be summed up as "what makes the most moral sense logically".

Which virtue(s) is(/are) she supposed to be a paragon of? Pragmatism?

Logic just lets you derive conclusions from assumptions, y'know. You still need assumptions in the first place. What's her basic metaethical perspective? I.e. what does she think it means for something to be moral or immoral? Stating that she is Good-aligned does not answer this question, though it may help to narrow down the possibilities.

(Probably Neutral on the Law/Chaos axis, i.e. lacking any bias in favor of or against authority or tradition.)

Any suggestions on a class that's good for beating down evil but has no real alliance to a higher power?

Wizard? If you're looking to make a strong melee combatant, maybe Swordsage or Warblade. I think that Crusader is more divine-flavored.

I saw a class on the Homebrew forum designed to be a non-martial counterpart to the Paladin class. Which actually makes sense insofar as PC classes tend to be designed for combat in one way or another. But the creator's comments kind of implied that Paladin was the only core class appropriate for a champion of Good. As if there cannot exist an aspect of a character that is not somehow encapsulated in game mechanics.

It's the same peculiar perspective that says that only divine spellcasters have religions. (It seems that a lot of players have forgotten or simply never read the part of the PHB that says that a typical character has a patron deity.)

Still, if your character being powered specifically by non-divine Goodness is important to you for some reason, then check out Magic of Incarnum. I doubt that you're going to get any better than making a character literally Good Incarnate so far as encapsulating this particular concept in game mechanics goes.

[Hopeless]

How about two words?

BE GOOD!

Yes thats quite a tough one given how I've seen some others run Paladins!

[Morithias]

Are you asking for how to do this in any edition, or should this be in the d20 forum?

Which virtue(s) is(/are) she supposed to be a paragon of?

Probably should be in 3.5 yeah..my bad.

Oh you know, basically the main seven or so. Charity, Truth, Love, Courage, Honor, Empathy, Valor, Humility, Etc

I admit it's hard to be "good" in the typical Avatar type thing when so much of D&D involves bashing people's brains in.

This is the girl who someone goes "Thanks for saving me Miss Paladin" and she goes "What's a paladin?" sarcastically, as she has no "divine calling" she has nothing supernatural backing up, she fights and seeks out evil, cause someone's got to do the job, so it might as well be her. The world needs a champion, someone who they know is watching out for them even when the gods die or the churches turn corrupt.

[Kish]

So...a good-aligned fighter then?

[Morithias]

So...a good-aligned fighter then?

Yeah, it's starting to look like that. Either that or a non-spellcaster ranger. I suppose I could finally get off my ass and read Tomb of Battle and use the crusader.

Thanks for the help people.

[Roguenewb]

There's an article by Rich Burlew (Mr. Giant) where he shows a class that transforms into an avatar (cool word match up!) of their goals and ambitions. They get a bunch of cool abilities and causes and stuff, and it's not divine linked AFAIR.

Another solid option is "cleric of a cause" (or the slightly less RAW/RAI Paladin of a cause). If I'm a cleric of Goodness!!! then you can kill every god in the multiverse, and yet, unless you kill good itself, I can still spellcast.

[toapat]

There's an article by Rich Burlew (Mr. Giant) where he shows a class that transforms into an avatar (cool word match up!) of their goals and ambitions. They get a bunch of cool abilities and causes and stuff, and it's not divine linked AFAIR.

Another solid option is "cleric of a cause" (or the slightly less RAW/RAI Paladin of a cause). If I'm a cleric of Goodness!!! then you can kill every god in the multiverse, and yet, unless you kill good itself, I can still spellcast.

RAW paladins are supposed to take up the mantle of a Cause more often then that of a Deity.

RAW Paladins have massive Incentives to crawl at the feet of Mystra

[Hopeless]

RAW paladins are supposed to take up the mantle of a Cause more often then that of a Deity.

RAW Paladins have massive Incentives to crawl at the feet of Mystra

Isn't Mystra still dead or are they renaming her Jean Grey?

[erikun]

Sounds like you are looking for, well, any character in existance. You don't need a specific class for RP motivation.

If we're talking D&D3, then Favored Soul, Crusader, or Ardent might match the class you are looking for.

[Kish]

Another solid option is "cleric of a cause" (or the slightly less RAW/RAI Paladin of a cause).

"Slightly less RAW/RAI" not because "paladins serve gods more directly than do clerics," but because "unless you're playing Forgotten Realms, where nearly every character chooses a patron deity, paladins do not serve gods at all."

[toapat]

Isn't Mystra still dead or are they renaming her Jean Grey?

Mystra has died twice, its just that her GF/Most powerful champion always takes up the mantle of Mystra after she dies.

[The Glyphstone]

Mystra has died twice, its just that her GF/Most powerful champion always takes up the mantle of Mystra after she dies.

So it's more like James Bond than Jean Grey.

[toapat]

So it's more like James Bond than Jean Grey.

id say more like War for the Cowl batman, where it goes Bruce>Nightwing>Daimen>Terry

also, in 3.5, We are only on Mystra #2

[Roguenewb]

I guess my memoru failed me, I thought that paladins were less clearly called out to be able to go for a pure Cause.

Thanks for the correction guys.

[Hopeless]

Mystra has died twice, its just that her GF/Most powerful champion always takes up the mantle of Mystra after she dies.

Given Elminster has been recorded as having spent a period of time as a woman, how did he avoid becoming the new Mystra?!

Have a sudden vision of a bishonen Mystra ala Sailor Moon!

[toapat]

Given Elminster has been recorded as having spent a period of time as a woman, how did he avoid becoming the new Mystra?!

Have a sudden vision of a bishonen Mystra ala Sailor Moon!

lol, Elminster is only the second most powerful servant of mystra at any one time.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess my memoru failed me, I thought that paladins were less clearly called out to be able to go for a pure Cause.

Thanks for the correction guys.

Keep in mind that even if you don't follow a god, you are still bound to the Paladin's Code as long as you have Paladin levels.

[Slipperychicken]

Mystra has died twice, its just that her GF/Most powerful champion always takes up the mantle of Mystra after she dies.

That sentence sounds more like Mystra's player is one of those guys who always has a list of "backup" relatives and half-cousins who function as exactly the same character, in case the original dies.


[Rolls natural 1, dies] "Okay, new character time. No more Mystra." [whole table sighs in relief]

[picks up 2nd-in-command's character sheet, which looks suspiciously like Mystra's] "Good evening. I aspire to be like Mystra in all things. Give me her loot btw, it's holy artifacts now and I need to wear it for my religion"

[Hunter Noventa]

I think the Crusader is pretty much a non-aligned, non-coded paladin also.

I think Crusaders have to be non-neutral, and they have some Maneuver limitations based on their alignment.

But for being a Holy Warrior, a Good Crusader really can't be beat.

[Quirp]

Are there any classes that work well for this concept? The character is suppose to basically be a paragon of virtue without any real divine backing. She doesn't worship the gods, she doesn't really care about the angels outside of "lets work together to fight evil" and her code can be summed up as "what makes the most moral sense logically".

...

(Which sadly gets rid of basically everything in the BOED).

The Anointed Knight from BoED works on the power of her ancestral weapon and alchemy (and is even the first PrC in the book).

[Morithias]

The Anointed Knight from BoED works on the power of her ancestral weapon and alchemy (and is even the first PrC in the book).

I am quite foolish to have forgotten that one. I shall keep it in mind. Thank you for reminding me.

[Vovix]

A fighter. You don't need an obscure class to be righteous.

[Morithias]

A fighter. You don't need an obscure class to be righteous.

Well I was mostly looking for a class like the Paladin that worked around fighting evil. The reason I didn't want to use the fighter is that they're just as good at beating up the good guys as the bad guys, you know?