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    Default Optimizing Hybrids

    I've discovered that, as much as I love hybrids, and finding quirks and making these strange builds fully functional, I actually know very, very, little about actually optimizing. So I'm starting this thread, is hopes of taking hybrid characters that work, and making them better. Very clear goals should be stated, and strategies included. I think using the same numbering system as the Q&A thread will help things straight, considering there are likely to be multiple versions of certain combinations (Paladin|Warlock comes to mind). Before I post my own, I'll let others add their hybrids, and I'll edit them into this post for quicker references.

    Build #1 Level 2 Dragonborn Barbarian|Sorcerer/Swordmage
    Build #2 Level 2 Dragonborn Blackguard|Ranger
    Build #3 Level 2 Teifling Bard|Blackguard/Warlock
    Build #4 Level 2 Human Paladin|Warlock
    Build #5 Level 2 Human Ranger|Warlord
    Build #6 Level 2 Thri-Keen Ranger|Rogue
    Build #7 Level 2 Drow Invoker|Monk
    Build #8 Level 16 Drow Rogue|Executioner/Warlock
    Last edited by Tegu8788; 2012-08-12 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    My three personal favourites for general play (not niche like FTDM):

    Warlock|Paladin (obviously)

    Rogue|Executioner + Warlock multiclass for permastealth.

    Fighter|Ranger

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Can you share some builds, and how they played out? You have pegged what I want to use this for, but I'm trying to make it useful for everyone.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    The second generally features a limited set of possibilities, so I'll link to the WotC forum thread I made for it.

    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...sassin?pg=last

    I will add that if you want immunity to Tremorsense, take Pixie. If you want more feats to realize the core combo faster, take Human. TBH, in retrospect, I almost certainly would take Pixie over Drow. Revenant at later levels allows you to use Revenantcheese to become unkillable.

    You can also buy a Pitted Flowstone to deal 5 automatic acid damage whenever you shift (like after charging).


    The first and third have so many options and have been gone over so many times that I feel anything I say will be redundant.

    With respect to Fighter|Ranger though, I personally opted for a Tempest Style + Spiked Chain Training + Kensai + Longtooth Shifter build using a Blood Fury Weapon to trigger Longtooth Shifting. It was powerful, fun and really allowed me to conserve on surge expenditures since I'd always be at just over bloodied.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Build #1 Level 2 Dragonborn Barbarian|Sorcerer/Swordmage

    This is a Str/Cha striker, and Dragonborn is the only race that boosts both. The MC lets him use the longsword as an implement, and boosts AC once a day. One of the tricks with this build is changing how many hands are holding the sword. Obviously you get better AC with one hand, but the Bloodclaw Weapon makes things better with two. Having a MBA and RBA is a bonus. Dragonflame is a nice way to boost defenses and hurt enemies in melee, which as a barbarian you can do. Beastial armor lets you make an MBA after a charge, so Howling Strike then MBA the same target, that's some serious hurt. A off turn daily is pretty nice. I'm not super familiar with any of these classes so there is a good chance I'm missing, but barbarian and sorcerer seem to mess so well, combining Armored Agility with sorcerer AC mod substitution. MC because it gives more for a feat than just poaching the swordmage implement.

    Build #2 Level 2 Dragonborn Blackguard|Ranger

    One trick pony right here. Hunter Quarry target A, Throw and Stab target A with the throw then charge target B, replacing the MBA with Virtuous Strike, then add Dread Smite onto that. Add in Skirmishing Stance to keep AC and reflex up while doing this trick, plus some extra bonus damage, then Veteran's Armor to get to use the daily at least twice a day. The main concern is figuring out how to get CA against target B to get more Blackguard striker bonuses.

    Build #3 Level 2 Teifling Bard|Blackguard/Warlock

    One of my ideas for a 5th-man build. DS and plate for off-Defender. Free action and CA boosts to Paladin weapon attacks for off-Striker. Bard powers combine Leader and Controller pretty well. Songblade fixes the weapon and implement issues handily, but with a Light Blade a Pact Blade could be used. The MC gives a ranged encounter, but can be changed.

    Build #4 Level 2 Human Paladin|Warlock

    Eyebite plus Divine Challenge, and Crimson Fire plus a charged Eldritch Strike are the two tricks of this build. This time using a Rapier Pact Blade to hand weapliment issues. Vice's Reward, plus invisibility, on top of Plate and Heavy Shield, means hitting this guy is very hard. Find a big bad guy, and wail on him. And when you factor in that DC has no range limitations, this can get fun. Crown of Stars, as I read it, means a minor action ranged 10 radiant Cha attack every round once a day. Radiant abuse would be good to work in.

    Build #5 Level 2 Human Ranger|Warlord

    Lazylord plus Twin Strike, pretty simple. Two Bastard Swords on a Twin Strike plus Lethal Hunter means 2d10+1d8 at will. First hit on a target gets an extra 1d6, and when you hit a quarried target Predator's Hide armor boosts all defenses. Invigorating Strike triggers a Second Wind, that triggers Defensive Weapon for more defensive bonuses. Direct the Strike then Off-Hand Strike to keep the damage going, and Lamb to the Slaughter is a great way to bring around pain.

    Build #6 Level 2 Thri-Keen Ranger|Rogue

    Twin Strike and Thri-Keen Claws for one nova, Riposte Strike and Off Hand Strike for another, tack Press the Advantage on for more damage. This is mostly trying to combine two different Striker features into one character that works well. Subtle Weapon for more fun when you have CA, and this guy has plenty of Str for a strong riposte. Invigorating Strike lets you get out of combat for a breather, heal up, and boost your defenses.

    Build #7 Level 2 Drow Invoker|Monk

    A multi-target hitter with controller overtones, able to hit at range or in melee equally well. Able to pump out plenty of THPs for himself, and several ways to boost defenses. This is the only one I've actually play, and had a lot of fun with. Most of the game I was able to hit at least two targets each round and move them around.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Optimising Hybrids is simple. It's all about the action economy and stat synergy (except in rare cases). Stat synergy should be obvious - use the same high stats for both classes (Warlord can be entirely stat independent). You've already got the principles. The other thing is with two classes to pick from you have a lot of chances to choose off-action attacks. As for roles:

    Leaders need to be effective is their minor actions.

    Defenders (other than the Paladin) are immediate action based for mark punishment. Note that the fighter needs the standard action to mark.

    Strikers and Controllers have awesome attack powers based on their standard actions.

    So hybrid two of the three. Hybrid Warlord/Ranger is the classic - you get Twin Strike (with Hunters' Quarry) with ranger powers taking the standard actions (and interrupts at times). But the warlord does his thing on the minor action so this doesn't get in the way. You're a pretty much full strength archer ranger with Inspiring Word and a bonus interrupt power.

    The exception is when you get to double down a class feature and stack as part of the same class - the ovious is the Assassin gets to add d8s worth of damage to basic attacks, and the warlock and gets to add curse damage to powers. But Eldritch Strike is a Melee Basic Attack and a Warlock Power so it gets both Assassin and Warlock bonus damage.

    That's basically it. And you've found the Blackguard/Ranger charge and both damage boosts and the Ranger/Warlord. And the Eyebite Paladin. The Invoker|Monk is not exactly optimal - the classes compete rather than synergise. But it's fun (Monks always are). Ripper honestly would be better off as a straight ranger although Press the Advantage is nice.

    And hybrids are the one thing I ban when I DM. Well, that and psionics (mostly because I don't like the latter).

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Serious, Tegu - can we just be best friends?

    As for your Thri-Kreen, check this out. :)

    I thought of something that I want you to help me abuse.
    Last edited by Alan_Pehnereas; 2012-08-13 at 12:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Sure, why not.

    As for that, it requires a PP feature to be useful, a long stretch from the lvl 2 build it's at. Cool idea, but thats a long time to wait for something.

    If it's a hybrid, put it up here. Just use the format I've started to make my quick referencing easier.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    my favourite was Cleric / Paladin, WIS/CHA based.
    Astral Seal for the cleric at will, Enfeebling strike for the Paladin (unless there's one that grants you temp hp, can't remember). Went human to pick up Sacred Flame as well.

    change turn undead for Healer's Mercy.
    AW: sacred flame, astral seal, enfeebling strike
    Enc: Righteous Smite or Divine Glow
    Util: Bastion of Health (enc grant surge one)
    D: beacon of hope

    At paragon you take Hospitaler and your mark + beacon starts really tossing out crazy healing. This build was an amazing healer all round and he could fight in melee or laser however he liked. I multiclassed as well later for invoker to pick up another utility or channel divinity power I think.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    You won't happen to have a link to the build, would you? I've heard about this combo a few times, and would love to be able to save it.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Not really optimal, but a quirky build is hybrid Avenger and Swordmage. Take the hybrid feat and prestige class(To get the Swordmage warding and Avenger shield of faith) in addition to the feats that enhance said features to get really high AC, sadly the resulting character is rather weak in all other regards.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by FrznTear View Post
    Not really optimal, but a quirky build is hybrid Avenger and Swordmage. Take the hybrid feat and prestige class(To get the Swordmage warding and Avenger shield of faith) in addition to the feats that enhance said features to get really high AC, sadly the resulting character is rather weak in all other regards.
    Not really, you want the avenger's Armor of Faith here instead of Swordmage Warding... lets you keep the full AC bonus without sacrificing your manga-sized weapon. You NEVER give up your paragon path for something like this, EVER.

    That being said, I'm fond of avenger|executioner (because avengers only need two of their encounter powers) or executioner|warlock (double Striker dice FTW!) for these kind of builds. I've also got a fun-looking bard|warlord and an artificer|swordmage waiting for their turns.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    I've been toying with making an Executioner/Seeker hybrid.....saw this comment on the main wizards forum and been debating on trying it:

    "It's a DEX/WIS Hybrid Talent: Spiritbond build. You get bonus damage on your RBAs, but that's immaterial: more importantly, you a good multi-target at-will that synergizes well with the Executioner poisons you'll be taking instead of the Dailies at bad Seeker levels, like L9. You can use an Assassin encounter power for a touch of mediocre control if you want to pay to maintain a ki focus, but otherwise you can just take Assassin's Strike and get a little extra damage without wasting actions you spend on Seeker powers."

    Wouldn't mind someone more skilled in this tackling this
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Well I been playing the idea of a paladin/sorcerer hybrid , basically it's a defender using sorcerer power to improve the defense of the paladin, and giving all feats if possible for making the marking and defensive ability more effective, all sorcerer powers are all close blast or burst power , this was relatively design to be at the front lines blasting as many enemy as possible and using defensive powers to stay longer and marking powers to gather all the enemy around him it's basically str/cha half elf for plate spec, com, we tried Dex/cha we end up with an iron man (marvel) type paladin, fully armored champion of corellon flying around firing powers from a distance ....we call this flying guard not the concept we have in mind :-)

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Build #9, presumably: a battlemind|wizard blood mage.

    Why hybridize at all instead of straight wizard or battlemind-MC-wizard (TL;DR = for hit points, surges and PsiAug bennies):
    Spoiler
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    As wise people (*cough*KuraldGalain*cough*) frequently remind us, if you're going to make a hybrid, be sure you have a clear goal in mind. My goal with this build is survivability, for a character with a feature that hinges on hurting himself. I like the thematic concept behind the Blood Mage wizard paragon path, because I feel that potent magic is something you should have to pay for. Or, conversely, that if you really go the extra mile and put something of yourself into your work, you should get more out of it. But the unarmored, low-HP, low-surges, no-healing-utilities wizard is not a great basis for that sort of play.

    So I wanted another base class that could give me armor, hit points,
    resistances, healing, and other valuable uses for high Constitution.
    That's the battlemind. There are some trade-offs, but I feel like I get
    my money's worth.

    The basic idea here is to have loads of HP and a high surge value and make sure you can heal yourself a couple or three times each battle. Use dwarven race for one minor-action heal, a skill power for an immediate reaction heal, maybe another skill power or battlemind utility. Dwarves can also get +2 Con and can add ConMod to their surge value in paragon tier, so that's good.

    Going battlemind has other advantages over, say, swordmage. Power points let you use certain items to excellent effect (a disproportionate number of which have encounter powers rather than dailies). Having the Psionic Augmentation feature is necessary for the Topaz Crusader epic destiny, one of the more solidly valuable EDs in my opinion and also a source of more Constitution. The battlemind defensive feature isn't very restrictive (just "wear heavy armor"), and it benefits plenty from the very high Constitution you'll have. And Psionic Toughness adds more hit points and self-healing but requires (here we go again) power points. You know what? It's looking like we won't actually ever use power points for, you know, powers, but having them available adds a lot to the character anyway. And your marking and mind spike will help attract a little attention away from your party members.

    You want that attention on you because there are plenty of burst and blast wizard powers that are good but don't see much use because wizards don't want to be in the middle of melee. Wade right in and start blasting. You can fall back on battlemind powers once you run out of arcane -- just be sure you pick something that doesn't need augmentation to be good.

    Don't try this with straight wizard, folks. You're already looking at something like 40 hp of self-inflicted damage per combat. A wizard just doesn't have the stamina for that, fight after fight after fight. Some people might ask at this point, "Why bother hybridizing wizard, then? Just use battlemind for even more hit points and surges! Get access to the paragon path by multiclassing." Not a bad idea ... except that the path's Big Special Thing only works for its own powers, wizard dailies and wizard encounter powers. If you're only going to apply that once in a while, that's a perfectly acceptable build, but it's not what we're aiming for here. Also, being able to select four or five wizard utilities kicks butt.


    The chassis, which is based on big damage-soaking rather than a particular combo of powers or class features:
    Spoiler
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    So ... Dwarven Durability, Arcane Familiar (dragonling), Swift Recovery and Psionic Toughness feats add to the amount you heal. Toughness and Psionic Toughness add to your max hit points, which also improves your surge value, while Dwarven Durability gives you more surges to use. The Endurance skill power Reactive Surge and the dwarven racial encounter power let you heal yourself twice per combat, minimum. The Heal skill power Iron Resurgence is great, too, at least for someone with as many surges per day as you have. So now you can feel free to let the blood flow. 'Tis but a scratch. That uses up only five or six feats, depending on whether you buy an extra utility with Skill Power feat or just sub the power into your regular array.


    Defender plus controller = striker?
    Spoiler
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    This plays like a multi-target striker. Depending on which wizard powers you pick, it could be a striker with some unkind side effects, and your zones are good, but you're still a striker. You dish out damage to lots of foes.


    Hey, I'M the one who's supposed to be hurting me, you guys stop that:
    Spoiler
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    You still need defense at this point. There are a couple ways to go about it. My initial thought was to use Hybrid Talent for battlemind armor and shield, then invest in Arcane Implement Proficiency to pick up a one-handed weapliment. And frankly that's nice and simple, not expensive in terms of feats. But it looks like there's a better route.

    Putting Hybrid Talent into Staff of Defense doesn't give you as much bang for the buck, but it's far more compatible with other wizard possibilities. For example, using a staff instead of (e.g.) a swordmage-style sword implement lets you pick up Staff Expertise, Superior Implement or War Wizard's Staff. If you feel the need for more defense, in addition to the Superior X line and/or Improved Defenses, you can use Hafted Defense, guardian staff Superior Implement, Unarmored Agility, Improved Staff of Defense, Staff Fighting, or a staff of aversion. Seriously, as many foes as you'll be affecting at once with your paragon path abilities, a staff of aversion is a major improvement to defense.


    And what next?
    Spoiler
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    After that point, feat and item selection really breaks down. You can go with feats to get more power points or benefit from using them up ... feats to improve skills (I recommend bard multiclass for that -- makes it easy to regain the Ritual Casting you lost for being hybrid) ... feats to make spells stronger, like Implement Mastery or Enlarge Spell or Spell Focus ... damage type specializations like frostcheese ... temporary hit point feats such as Gritty Determination (yay for high ConMod!) and Beshaba's Boon ... something to improve the battlemind side of the build ... save-related feats ... maneuverability feats ... defenses that aren't AC/F/R/W (like Mettle or Stoneroot's Endurance or Luck Of The Gods) ... even simple flavor feats. Considering ahead of time which of these you might want will suggest how to arrange your initial stats -- you might need high Dex or Wis or Cha, depending.

    As I re-imagined this character time and time again, he kept seeming more like the sort to transform himself into a psionic being, so I took Elan Heritage for a flavor feat. I ended up refluffing his familiar as a sort of tangible mental focus and taking a couple extra feats to fit that theme.


    Thou shalt not:
    Spoiler
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    Don't take anything that offers "resist all". It interferes with your damage-boosting mechanism. Temporary hit points are your friends, though. And don't try to get in too deep with defender mechanics. You're really not one. And if you try to take enough powers to be effective in that role, you lose out on the whole point of the hybrid build.




    EDIT: I'll clean this up more and provide a character sheet link when we reach another confluence of the server not hating me and my brain being functional. Criticism and commentary are welcome.
    Last edited by Dimers; 2012-09-07 at 02:30 AM.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Now this is the kind of creative hybrid building that I love, and wish I was better at.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Well, don't start to think it's something you can't do. I've made changes to the build dozens of times over more than a year -- you spend that long on anything and it starts to shape up. Hell, a couple hours before posting that text, I changed my mind about what Hybrid Talent to use.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    I'm not at home right now so I can't post the actual build but one of my favorite Hybrids I've played so far is a Wizard|Warlord...gives you some wicked buffs for the party and essentially allows you to dictate how battles go since you can control both allies and enemies alike...it could probably use some optimizing (ie. the chosen feats are probably way wrong) but I can say it's a blast. I'll post it when I get home


    Sidenote: Whilst the above buld doesn't really follow this I find Hybrids that can utilizes different actions work the best...IOW a Class using alot of standard/move abilities but lacks in minor action/immediate inturups hybrids well with another calls that does the opposite (assuming other sysnergies such as stats mesh)
    Last edited by Blind_Prophet; 2012-09-27 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    A hybrid I've recently found meshes rather well is an Invoker|Druid (Sentinel) using Con & Wis as the primary stats.

    You automatically start with hide armor and can use Hybrid Talent to get Con-to-AC while wearing hide armor from Sentinel. Reflex is the only low defense, but not too terrible if you use staves and pick the Druid of the Wastes option (though the online character builder doesn't properly apply the AC and Reflex bonus while wielding a staff).

    The build I've been tinkering with focuses on flight and lightning/thunder attacks, picks up Mark of Storm, and then dives into Lyrandar Wind-Rider at 11th. As a result, many of its powers approach striker-level damage while retaining much of its controller integrity. Having 1/encounter access to some druidic healing is basically gravy. The companion seems fairly fragile to me, but they always do. If nothing else, the Druid of the Wastes companion can give you permanent concealment with its aura as long as its active.

    Here's a level 11 snapshot of the build. Since I'm basically building this to be used by a friend in an upcoming campaign that starts at 11th I've included some sample gear with this one. Note, again, that the builder doesn't properly add the +1 AC and Reflex from using a staff so those defenses should actually be a smidge higher than what's listed here.

    Spoiler
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    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Binesi Stormcaller, level 11
    Mul, Invoker/Druid (Sentinel), Lyrandar Wind-Rider
    Season: Druid of the Wastes
    Covenant Manifestation Option: Manifestation of Wrath
    Hybrid Invoker Option: Hybrid Invoker Will
    Hybrid Talent Option: Primal Guardian (Sentinel)
    Born of Two Races Option: Dwarf
    Forest Warden (Forest Warden Benefit)
    Theme: Windlord

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    STR 12, CON 21, DEX 11, INT 14, WIS 21, CHA 9

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    STR 11, CON 16, DEX 10, INT 13, WIS 16, CHA 8


    AC: 27 Fort: 27 Ref: 23 Will: 26
    HP: 72 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 18

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Endurance +18, Nature +16, Perception +18

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +4, Arcana +7, Athletics +7, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +7, Insight +10, Intimidate +6, Religion +7, Stealth +4, Streetwise +6, Thievery +4

    POWERS
    Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
    Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
    Windlord Attack: Wind Fury Assault
    Mul Racial Power: Incredible Toughness
    Cleric Utility: Healing Word
    Invoker Attack 1: Vanguard's Lightning
    Druid Attack 1: Jolt of Lightning
    Invoker Attack 1: Lightning's Revelation
    Invoker Attack 1: Silent Malediction
    Druid Attack 1: Lightning Arc
    Invoker Utility 2: Divine Call
    Druid Utility 2: Warding Wind
    Druid Attack 3: Call Lightning
    Invoker Attack 7: Lightning Spike
    Invoker Attack 9: Herald the Storm Unleashed
    Windlord Utility 10: Wind Step
    Lyrandar Wind-Rider Attack 11: Wind Burst

    FEATS
    Level 1: Staff Expertise
    Level 2: Hybrid Talent
    Level 4: Mark of Storm
    Level 6: Power of the Storm
    Level 8: Implement Focus (Staff)
    Level 10: Improved Defenses
    Level 11: Resounding Thunder

    ITEMS
    Adventurer's Kit
    Hunter's Kit
    Defensive Staff +3 x1
    Torc of Justice x1
    Eberron Shard of Lightning (heroic tier)
    Spirit of Storm (heroic tier)
    Rhythm Blade Dagger +2 x1
    Magic Earthhide Armor +3 x1
    ====== End ======


    After this I'd think about picking up a superior implement - accurate staff or maybe even quickbeam staff since the attacks are fairly accurate already. Maybe even grab Hidden Sniper to get auto combat advantage against everything as long as you're within 2 squares of your companion.

    Other ideas are Toughness, since it buffs both the character and the companion. Dwarven Durability is another option so the number of surges per day borders on the absurd.

    And of course there's always the number of other lightning/thunder feats to boost damage or give other options - seriously considering grabbin Thunder's Rumble at 12th and simultaneously retraining Implement Focus (Staff) to Lightning Soul for an additional +1 damage with nearly every attack.

    Edit: I forgot the masterwork armor. All fixed now.
    Last edited by ghost_warlock; 2012-09-29 at 06:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Hey guys home now (well after sleeping :P) so here's my Wizard|Warlord build the original concept for the character before I even chose the classes was a very Lazy Lord who's land is under attack and has recruited some volunteers (the other players) to repel the invaders (and is now trying to hunt down their lair)

    I really wanted to represent his laziness mechanically so I had to make a guy who could literally sit on a chair if he'd like and still be awesome, I started off with just a wizard but while Beguiling Strands and Hypnotism were along the lines of what I was looking for aside from the Charm of... Line the encounter and dailies were lacking for the "Lazy Lord" feel so I tried a couple hybrids but in my search I came across a build for a Lazylord (a warlord that dumps Str in favor of cranking Int and not using any str-based abilities)...which one made me laugh and two actually worked really well with Wizard to get what I was looking for.

    Now this build is currently only Lvl 7 but so far it's been working GREAT...the DM hates my character I mess up any of his tactics by pretty much deciding where any piece on the board is and if he gets anywhere close to me I can blast his monsters 5 squares away (Beguiling Strands(3) + Petrified Orb (1), +Orb Expertise(1) = 5).

    My chosen Paragon Path Divine Oracle is awesome (Roll Init and vs. Will Attacks Twice,Extra Move action w/ Action point) but requires a kinda meh Multi-class feat and Battlemage, Spellstorm Mage and Adroit Explorer are pretty nice in their own right so it's still kind of up in the air.

    As for the theme I went with Society of Sensate because it just fits the character SO well and the easy creation of THPs will work great on this guy since his is kinda on the squishy side.

    Note: At Level 3 none of the Wizard encounter powers actually suit the theme so I just chose Color Spray and it's turned out to be quite useful. Also in our group we will be rolling stats but I used an array so it's legal by standard rules.

    Anyways now that I've succeeding in rambling on forever here's the build.

    Spoiler
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    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Lord Reinald, level 11
    Human, Warlord|Wizard, Divine Oracle
    Warlord Leadership: Canny Leader (Hybrid)
    Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will
    Hybrid Talent: Arcane Implement Mastery
    Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
    Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
    Background: Last of the Breed (Last of the Breed Benefit)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 9, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 23, Wis 16, Cha 13.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 8, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 12.


    AC: 23 Fort: 19 Reflex: 24 Will: 23
    HP: 63 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Perception +18, Endurance +14, History +16, Arcana +16, Religion +16

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, Insight +10, Intimidate +6, Nature +8, Stealth +5, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5, Athletics +4

    FEATS
    Human: Superior Implement Training (Petrified orb)
    Level 1: Hybrid Talent
    Level 2: Orb Expertise
    Level 4: Improved Initiative
    Level 6: Improved Defenses
    Level 8: Unarmored Agility
    Level 10: Initiate of the Faith
    Level 11: Spell Focus

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Beguiling Strands
    Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike
    Hybrid at-will 1: Hypnotism
    Hybrid encounter 1: Powerful Warning
    Hybrid daily 1: Sleep
    Hybrid utility 2: Shield
    Hybrid encounter 3: Color Spray
    Hybrid daily 5: Scent of Victory
    Hybrid utility 6: Reorient the Axis
    Hybrid encounter 7: Charm of the Defender
    Hybrid daily 9: Symphony of the Dark Court
    Hybrid utility 10: Tactical Orders

    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
    Last edited by Blind_Prophet; 2012-09-28 at 05:28 PM.

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    Tegu8788's Avatar

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    These are some fun hybrids. And please, do ramble, because the thought process behind the build is just as important as seeing the skeleton. Understanding why certain choices were taken helps other people build better hybrids. I'm also loving the pure fluff around these hybrids, showing how you can get a good character using a hybrid, along with a build.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Interesting character build, Blind_Prophet; I can definitely see myself playing and enjoying a character like this. It makes me wonder if a similar character could be made that's completely diceless, as in uses the Charm of... line and warlord powers so that the character never rolls an attack roll. I suppose I might still have to bring dice to the session for skill challenges and such, though.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_warlock View Post
    Interesting character build, Blind_Prophet; I can definitely see myself playing and enjoying a character like this. It makes me wonder if a similar character could be made that's completely diceless, as in uses the Charm of... line and warlord powers so that the character never rolls an attack roll. I suppose I might still have to bring dice to the session for skill challenges and such, though.
    I like beguiling strands too much to do that :D I'd love to see it though
    Last edited by Blind_Prophet; 2012-09-28 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    I've made a character focused on ongoing damage, so I decided to make it a monk/wizard hybrid. Monk for the Blistering Flourish, wizard for Fire Shroud. There were also several levels where I found the wizard's daily or utility powers to be better than a monk, otherwise I would have gone multiclass instead. Of course this is a tiefling with the Hellfire Master and Icy Clutch of Stygia feats, to capitalize on the ongoing. My theme can give vulnerability to fire once per day, which is a nice boost to ongoing fire and HM.

    Here's something that goes against accepted wisdom but that I found works well in practice: this guy's intelligence is not all that high. I started with 19 dex, 14 int since most of my attacks are monk powers. This means I'm taking a -2 or -3 to hit on Fire Shroud. This is not a problem because of its sheer area; statistically, 0.6 * 3 works out to more hits per round than 0.7 * 1. You just don't use FS unless you're surrounded by a crowd, and it makes for a nice signature move. Of course, the wizard daily and utility powers don't require a to-hit roll.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    i made a intresting Hybrid recently. I believe it was... Ironsoul monk + rogue. I don't remember the exact specifics. But the entire idea was this "underdog" kind of half orc guy who used simple or improvised weaponry to combat better trained and equiped enemies most of his life and turned that into a fighting style. It was actually pretty damn cool. And one hell of a striker, actually. I'll see if I can find the actual stats and stuff...
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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Those are certainly two interesting monk hybrids.

    I was wonder, if you make a hybrid sorcerer and use your hybrid talent on the sorcerer, what exactly are you losing? Like the vampire, you seem to get pretty much all of the features of the base class, plus some from another. Power selection changes obviously, but am I missing something?

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Quote Originally Posted by Tegu8788 View Post
    I was wonder, if you make a hybrid sorcerer and use your hybrid talent on the sorcerer, what exactly are you losing?
    Not that much. A few hit points, one skill, and the tertiary class feature (e.g. scales of the dragon, chaos burst, stuff like that). Notably, a full sorcerer gains a damage bonus to all arcane powers, whereas a hybrid gains a damage bonus only to sorcerer powers. That means that for certain tricks, MC'ing would be better.

    The problem with hybriding into sorcerer is that sorcerer powers aren't all that good, with a few exceptions like Flame Spiral. The primary appeal of the class is its damage bonus on all arcane powers, and you can't get that by hybriding.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    Actually, aside from what KG pointed out, a hybrid sorcerer gets a pretty full package even without Hybrid Talent. They miss out on some build-specific riders and one or two marginal build-specific bennies.
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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    That is good to know.

    Also, I present this, my ultimate striker.

    Charge someone then use Virtuous Strike. With a rapier that's 1d8. Add Attack Finesse for an extra 1d8. Plus Dread Smite which is 2+Cha mod plus 5 ongoing if you hit, static even on a miss. Damage on a miss is great in my book.

    Tack on Cunning Stalker to get CA against a lonely target that you've charged. This kicks in Dark Menace for Cha-mod damage and Spirit of Vice that gives +2, +4 if you or anything you are adjacent to is bloodied.

    With a Charisma score of 20, to-hit +10 vs. AC, 3d8+15 radiant damage at level 2. And all of this only costs one action at a time. I call this a strong nova.

    Plus a +2 to saving throws never hurts.

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    Default Re: Optimizing Hybrids

    I don't get it, Tegu, what's the advantage to building this as a hybrid rather than a straight blackguard? Other than a measly +1d8 from Attack Finesse this doesn't do anything a blackguard couldn't already do. Also, in the character builder, Attack Finesse was recently changed to apply to only assassin powers (though it still shows up on the virtuous strike power card for some reason).

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