Optimizing Hybrids

[Tegu8788]

Largely because I love hybrids, hence the name of the thread. At level 2, and doubling your weapon damage is pretty good, and I have yet to play any character beyond level 5. I'm kinda new to D&D, as I have said elsewhere.

If the Attack Finesse has been errataed, then that does reduce the effectiveness of this build quite a bit.

[ghost_warlock]

I suppose it could be considered an advantage of the hybrid blackguard that you can select any paladin at-will(s) you want rather than being forced to take the Strength-based ones blackguard usually gets strong-armed into. Being able to be Cha-primary is certainly an advantage for some builds. I'm just not really digging a hybrid where you flat-out state "ignore the at-wills from this half of the hybrid."

I've been wanting to use the blackguard in a hybrid for a while but haven't really come up with anything particularly advantageous yet. I've played around with a blackguard|warlock, but blackguard doesn't really offer anything more than the regular paladin would since the blackguard bonus striker damage only applies to weapon attacks and a regular paladin with divine challenge can grab Crimson Fire and end up being a much more effective striker. d10 curse dice really hurt, especially once you grab Mindbite Scorn.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, I present this, my ultimate striker.

That's nice but not exactly ultimate. A simple PHB1 brutal scoundrel does pretty much the same damage.

[Mistwing]

That's nice but not exactly ultimate. A simple PHB1 brutal scoundrel does pretty much the same damage.

Well, maybe it's ultimate for HIM!
because fun

[Kurald Galain]

Well, maybe it's ultimate for HIM!
because fun

This thread is about optimized builds, not fun builds (hence the title).

[Mistwing]

This thread is about optimized builds, not fun builds (hence the title).

While true, the same can be said about the fact that it's comparable to a simple rogue. Seing as a rogue pure is not a hybrid. Similarly, the definition of ultimate varies.

And personally I believe it's all about fun. Why else would we be playing. But yes. I do admit that that is beside the point of this thread. Fair enough.

As for the actual subject on hand (I actually have things to say rather than to branch of in some petty squabble, yes)

I find myself questioning weather it's really advisable to focus on charges like that, since charge consumes two actions and is largely situational since it requires a minimum distance. So it's kind of a one trick pony in that regard. Not bad though. Like Kurald said; it's about rogue damage. Which in 4e is pretty darn high.

[Tegu8788]

Yes, I included the word "my" for a reason. I don't normally play or build pure strikers, and given how purely striker hybrids normally are so maligned, I thought this would be something worth seeing. This is built for a very specific game that only lasts six rounds with some rather preset assumptions, but I picked what I thought where the best at-wills, regardless. Fun is good, and hybrids I don't think has ever had difficulty being fun, but this thread is about optimization.

If it can be on par with a rogue, I feel good about it. It is very much a one trick pony, I give you that. However, when did charging take more than one action? Unless you are referring to a move away to charge again.

[TopCheese]

Back when Hybrids were new and shiny I played in a game where I wanted to be a redmage...

Cleric/Wizard was ok.... But didn't have the melee needed...

I went with Warlord/Sorcerer! The Warlord gave melee and healing while the sorcerer gave blasty spells. I essentially made Red Mage from 8 bit theatre who I can't ever remembering casting any other white magic spell than "cure" spells.

Anyways I'm not sure if it still works but a Warlord/Sorcerer Hybrid is fun as hell to play. Later in a game I picked up the PC again and took adroit explorer as the PP... Holy crap that was fun.

I might try making a red mage again but in a different way.

[Tegu8788]

With the new Battle Lore option, a Cleric/Sorcerer could work if you focused on Str and Cha. Perhaps not as strong as Sorlord. I have to imagine that Bardlock could work as well if you snag some Hexblade powers to boost melee side. On a very bizarre side, an Avenger|Invoker/Cleric could do the melee, blasting, and healing. If I recall, he didn't use very many spells at all, just a few ice spells and cures, maybe haste.

Now if we can figure out how to dual wield a dual wielded bow.

[TopCheese]

With the new Battle Lore option, a Cleric/Sorcerer could work if you focused on Str and Cha. Perhaps not as strong as Sorlord. I have to imagine that Bardlock could work as well if you snag some Hexblade powers to boost melee side. On a very bizarre side, an Avenger|Invoker/Cleric could do the melee, blasting, and healing. If I recall, he didn't use very many spells at all, just a few ice spells and cures, maybe haste.

Now if we can figure out how to dual wield a dual wielded bow.

I'm now working on a Cleric/Sorcerer hybrid. I want to be able to destroy some battles (well be a striker haha) but then step back and be a team player (leader) in other battles you know.

I haven't made a hybrid in years though so I'm not sure how good I'll be able to make it. Might as well jump in head first.

[ThiagoMartell]

The one character I still want to play in 4e is a Sorcerer/Rogue hybrid

[TopCheese]

The one character I still want to play in 4e is a Sorcerer/Rogue hybrid

A friend of mine tried that and it worked out pretty well. I wasn't in the game and I have yet to check Daggermaster PP but he explained that the increase crit worked on Sorcerer spells.

Those 2 classes go together pretty well though.

@ Tegu8788 : You know what I love about that scene? That type of stuff comes up in my D&D games (that I'm in or I'm the DM of) where this nigh invincible god like NPC (that knows a crap ton of stuff of course) will look at a PC and ask "wait..how are you doing that?"....

Now I need to read that comic again...

But really any class that you could change your spells to ice would work. Actually what I think would also work is if there was a class that could do the swapping of feats, powers, and anything else during a short rest any number of times... Maybe a Paragon Path called "The Red Min Maxer"? Haha

[ThiagoMartell]

A friend of mine tried that and it worked out pretty well. I wasn't in the game and I have yet to check Daggermaster PP but he explained that the increase crit worked on Sorcerer spells.
Haha

I'm pretty sure that was nerfed by errata

[TopCheese]

I'm pretty sure that was nerfed by errata

That wouldn't surprise me., though I can see an argument against the errata. It could make sense that the increase crit works on other powers *shrug*

Of course many ppl I know plays "by the book" so some or all the errata gets forgotten (unless it helps them).

Actually a game I'm jumping into plays by that rule... I might need to watch out O_o

I recently made a Str/Int Wizlord (sounds horrible when I say it out loud...) that uses a staff and howling wall. When he gets surrounded he can push everyone away as he makes his pose... Also makes it look cool when leaves and stuff are being blown around as he walks. But he does pretty good at level 11 with minimal optimizing... +15 on wizard attack powers and +17 on Warlord attack powers. Wizard side is all about control and warlord is about buffs and healing. Nicely though he can do a bit of damage >:D. With a bunch of staff feats things can get interesting..

[Tegu8788]

The Warlord makes for good hybrids because it is so flexible, and its got a nice stat spread. The fact that you can use it and get away with not rolling makes it even better. I think there was mention earlier of a potential Wizlord that would never have to roll to attack. Wizard is also great, because it has so many god powers. Classes that need features are weakened by hybriding.

That's why rogue|sorcerer works I think. Sorcerer doesn't loose very much feature wise, and while you are honestly likely to play two different classes in one character instead of a unified hybrid class, the switch back and forth is much easier than with other dual class hybrids.

[Kurald Galain]

That wouldn't surprise me., though I can see an argument against the errata. It could make sense that the increase crit works on other powers *shrug*

The argument for the errata is that WOTC doesn't like it if the best paragon path for a class is one that belongs to another class. Pre-errata, pretty much every striker wants to be either a Daggermaster, Student of Caiphon, or possibly Pit Fighter.

[TopCheese]

The argument for the errata is that WOTC doesn't like it if the best paragon path for a class is one that belongs to another class. Pre-errata, pretty much every striker wants to be either a Daggermaster, Student of Caiphon, or possibly Pit Fighter.

Haha oh WoTC how we love you.

Although one thing I'm surprised about is that they never made hybrid options for paragon classes. As crazy as that might seem I think ppl would jump on it.

Student of Caiphon sounds familiar but I don't recall what that PP is.

[Yakk]

Dagger and Student PP are both crit-boosting PPs.

As it happens, CharOp discovered that the way to boost damage output is to focus on the multipliers (attacks per round, attack rolls per attack, damage per hit, hits per attack roll, crits per attack, crit damage boost per crit), and the lower the multiplier is to start the more important each additional small boost is.

In the case of Daggermaster, that 18-20 crit range is ridiculously tasty to a whole host of builds.

[TopCheese]

Dagger and Student PP are both crit-boosting PPs.

As it happens, CharOp discovered that the way to boost damage output is to focus on the multipliers (attacks per round, attack rolls per attack, damage per hit, hits per attack roll, crits per attack, crit damage boost per crit), and the lower the multiplier is to start the more important each additional small boost is.

In the case of Daggermaster, that 18-20 crit range is ridiculously tasty to a whole host of builds.

What WoTC should actually do is make a set of books with builds that are low powered, mid powered, high powered. Not that I would spend my money on it but I'm sure there are tons of people who would jump at it :p

Hmmm would allowing hybrid talent feat multiple times as a normal feat hurt anything?

[Tegu8788]

I know it would make my hybrids far, far stronger. I get plate armor and boon benefits to my pallock? You get a second hybrid talent by giving up your paragon path. It's considered that powerful.

And I'd love to have it.

Edit: That said, I also would like to be able to trade out certain features. Or go back to the orginial idea where you got the best of weapons, implements, and armor.

[Kurald Galain]

You get a second hybrid talent by giving up your paragon path. It's considered that powerful.

Trading your paragon path for a hybrid feat is a really bad deal though.

It depends on what class you're looking for. Most classes have one really good option for hybrid talent, and the rest are crap. The key is that hybrids aren't supposed to get the best part of two base classes, and allowing the feat twice would let them do precisely that.

[Tegu8788]

Agreed. Paragon Hybrid or Paragon Multiclass are both far weaker than an actual Paragon Path.

It would be incredibly complicated, but I wish there was a way, outside of homebrewing, to fold that second hybrid talent into an actual Hybrid Paragon Path. Allowing you to mix two paragon paths could be incredibly powerful, and would have to be restricted somehow.

And aside from that, I can understand why they haven't, PP and ED are not like classes. The only way that they could make pretty much everything balanced against everything, would be to institute a point buy system for everything. Powers, feats, features, all based around a point buy system would be even more complex than it is now.

[Dimers]

An avenger likes to stay stuck on a chosen enemy. An assault swordmage has plenty of extra opportunity to hop over to a chosen enemy. Avengers like Intelligence. Not a match made in heaven, but a good place to start.

EDIT: Why hybrid instead of single-class?

Spoiler

Show

The powers and feats synergize pretty well, you get more attacks per combat than a straight avenger, you get way more offensive power than a straight swordmage, and your movement options are better than either class by itself. There are down sides too, but for a change, this is a hybrid that really does have something it does better than either of the single classes it's based on.

When you hybridize swordmage and avenger, naturally you want to go with Wis and Int primary. Because I appreciate accuracy I prioritize Wisdom higher and pick more avenger powers, but you can make a decent build either way. As an assault swordmage, the riders in your powers mention Strength more often ... but not much more! So you might actually choose to place Constitution as your tertiary ability score, since that helps the class in a lot more ways, in both attack and utility powers. Depends mostly on what sorts of feat you'll want to grow into.

Whether Str or Con is your tertiary, you need a decent MBA for this build. Intelligent Blademaster makes your MBA based on Int, or of course you could take Power of Skill to make overwhelming strike into an MBA.

While some swordmage powers let you act as a defender in ways, assault swordmage is by default punitive rather than protective. So for the most part you're a striker, with a special feature that gives you a few extra attacks per combat (responding to your aegis) and another special feature that lets you hit a bit more accurately than most. If you're the only defender in a party, the party doesn't have a defender.

Your job is to pick one critter and chase it to death, rinse, repeat. You have no problem keeping up with maneuverable foes, so target them first. Looking at the metagame, you should also try to pick on whoever comes right after you in the initiative order. That way, if they DON'T trigger your aegis response, you know you can safely use your immediate action for something else this round.

As I just pointed out, this build is hungry for immediate actions, at least until Epic tier (when one swordmage feat lets you use your aegis response free once per round), and if you need to keep marking and Oathing enemies, you'll be pretty short on minor actions too. Give strong consideration to powers and feats that let you apply your oath or aegis as a free action or as part of a standard attack.

There are a whole lot of ways you could go with this build. One I found to be effective uses a few githzerai abilities and a few multiclass monk abilities. To wit:

• fullblade proficiency with +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage for a single feat
• a good paragon path ("Storvakal" has good features, a great 11th-level power, and the ability to actually make good use of Power Attack feat for +6 or +9 damage)
• ki focus proficiency, effectively granting an extra item slot if nothing else
• Wis replacing Con for HP and surges, replacing Str for Athletics
• plus 1+Wis to all defenses against opportunity attacks ... nigh untouchable as far as that goes

It's hard to make ideal use of the two githzerai racial abilities -- both require a heavy investment of feats, and one (the extra benefit for using second wind) usually wastes an action. I did find one way to halt that waste using a theme. Order Adept lets you swap in a 2nd-level wizard utility, one of which lets you use your second wind as a minor action every encounter and get a free save to boot!

With Order Adept, a monk flurry and the Storvakal encounter attack power, my particular build will do just fine minion-mashing as well as taking on big single targets. Storvakal and Centered Flurry of Blows also help rearrange the battlefield. But that's not necessarily how you'll end up if you make your own avenger|swordmage build. You could go for resistances, damage, a wider spread of powers, some heritage feats, initiative ... whatever you like, you'll find that the avenger|swordmage can get some of it.

Just about any build will want better defenses and better accuracy, though. Give plenty of thought to your implement/weapon situation and stick with the answer you find. If you don't mind losing some damage (as a striker!), swordmage warding can work a little better for defense than Armor of Faith. But if you want to roll the big dice, swordmage warding is almost pointless. You can use a two-hander as an implement either way -- you just can't defend yourself with it.

Whew! Info dump! Go have fun with it, y'all.

[Hal]

I've been trying to find a way to get the most mileage out of a Barbarian/Paladin (Blackguard or not) Hybrid. It seems like it ought to work out, given the Str/Cha synergy, but I'm just not seeing a lot of ways to get some "oomph" out of it. Any ideas in this regard? It might just be that I'm not as familiar as I should be with the gear and feats that would make these classes, individually, do their best.

[tcrudisi]

I've been trying to find a way to get the most mileage out of a Barbarian/Paladin (Blackguard or not) Hybrid. It seems like it ought to work out, given the Str/Cha synergy, but I'm just not seeing a lot of ways to get some "oomph" out of it. Any ideas in this regard? It might just be that I'm not as familiar as I should be with the gear and feats that would make these classes, individually, do their best.

What are you trying to get out of it?

[TopCheese]

I've been trying to find a way to get the most mileage out of a Barbarian/Paladin (Blackguard or not) Hybrid. It seems like it ought to work out, given the Str/Cha synergy, but I'm just not seeing a lot of ways to get some "oomph" out of it. Any ideas in this regard? It might just be that I'm not as familiar as I should be with the gear and feats that would make these classes, individually, do their best.

I haven't made one but it does seem like they should work well together...

Isn't there a way on the DDI character builder to make a random class after picking race/class? Perhaps do that a few times and pick n choose from what it makes?

[Tegu8788]

I would see this as a tough striker with some leader tendencies. Grab yourself a nice big weapon, ignore implement powers as much as possible. The biggest question I see is where you get your AC. You'll need to spend your hybrid talent to get either Plate from Paladin or the Barbarian's special boosting feature. Paladin has a bit better AC, but Barbarian will be more mobile with less penalties. If Paladin, remember your mark works at a distance so you can mark one guy, and charge another then mark and charge the first one, ping ponging back and forth. Or if you go Blackguard, you are double dipping into striker features that don't overlap, so minor action or off-turn attacks are key.

But like tcrudisi, what do you want out of it? I have a guide in my spoiler, look at the hybrid section, it's got some good advice I stole.

[polity4life]

I'm presently remaking, from level 1, my 21st level fighter who multi-classed into paladin. The reason for this combination is entirely related to role-playing and not optimization. The multi-classed character "worked" in that he wasn't downright awful but since this character was destroyed and reincarnated temporarily by his god to complete something, the DM gave me carte blanche to remake him as a fighter/paladin hybrid.

My goal is to make a very durable character with a boat load of diverse marking methods for multiple targets who can heal himself reasonably well. I don't care about damage output since the rest of the party, save for the cleric NPC, is entirely geared towards that. My goal is to keep everyone clean and to unilaterally keep myself on my feet as long as mechanically possible. Why the second part? This DM's healing NPCs have a nasty habit of dying very early in campaigns as punishment to the players for not establishing a balanced party.

I can't go into specifics since I don't have the sheets with me but he is a primarily strength-based character with a high constitution and wisdom. The other stats are meh to above average. I eschewed a paragon path to continue on as a paragon hybrid since I couldn't find a paragon path that gave me both mass-marking and self healing.

Once I have the sheets back in my hand I'll type out everything from specific stats to my first draft of choice powers and feats. However I would love some suggestions beforehand if the community has any.

[Tegu8788]

I am not super familiar with the fighter or Str paladin, but I know enough to suggest that you focus on Str and Wis, throwing what you can into Con. You won't be getting any usage of the Paladin's healing feature, but you can snag powers that can help some with that. Scale armor and a nice shield will make you pretty durable.

The mass marking Paladin powers are mostly Cha based that I know of, but that won't be a good stat for you. The Paladin can mark at range and you only need to be next to or attack your mark each turn to maintain it, and does Cha mod damage, so it it won't be that harsh. Fighter being based on exclusively Fighter attacks, it means you need to have lots of Fighter powers to keep those Marks going.

Losing a Paragon Path weakens you a lot. The second hybrid talent is sweet, but very, very rarely worth it.

If you are able, and willing, to make a slight change, you can dramatically boost the effectiveness of your character, and your party. Fighter|Cleric that has the same stats still has all of the Fighter marking powers, scale armor, can get +2 AC and a two-handed weapon, plus a per encounter heal to help your party survive. Rune-priest is also a strong secondary option, but is more complex than the Fighter|Cleric, a heavy hitting divine/martial defender that can heal in a pinch.

[Blind_Prophet]

If only they had released hybrid rules for Knight that Aura 1 makes for easy stickiness for a frontline fighter