Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 166
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    eggs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Setting-based item availability isn't a huge deal for Warlocks. For half their career, they can just make whatever; the other half, they use the same scrolls or other casters that Wizards do.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-08-19 at 06:58 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Urpriest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Stony Brook
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Just to clarify, Caster's Lament restricts one use per 24 hours on any particular target. It's not as if it can only be used once per 24 hours period.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

    Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
    Trophy!
    Spoiler
    Show


    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Exactly. It sucks overall, but at the level you get it, it's pretty much the only option unless you're somehow stacking fear effects.
    I suppose, but keep in mind that you aren't getting your second iterative until 8th (possibly even later if you are PrCing out), so you may only actually get your iterative uses of this at 8th, 9th, or even 10th level, at which point you're asking for a maybe a level or two's use out of this invocation. This isn't as egregious as Summon Swarm, which has the same window of usefulness, but remains dead for a few levels, but it's still suspect. I suppose I can make special mention of it, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisDon View Post
    This depends on item availablity and several other assumptions, particularily what a DM will be fooled into allowing for cheap. cold comfort ought be a least invocation, obviously. It's hardly worth mentioning, as it's a red herring.

    One of the big complaints I've heard regarding the class is not enough abilities. the books help with that.

    If your lesser invocations are charm, the dead walk & fell flight, adding flee the scene or eldritch chain hardly sucks.

    Still, it's just an idea. If you are playing a warlock & find such an item, you'd be free to sell it for half $.
    This is true; out of the box, the Warlock is lacking in invocations, and this does change that, but it's hardly a cost-effective method; for instance, to steal from your lesser invocations example, Charm could be replaced by a use-activated item of Charm Monster would be 21,000gp (as made by a Bard), or 28,000gp (as made by a Wizard), but wouldn't have the "one monster only" limitation and wouldn't be language-dependent, so it would be strictly better as an at-will ability. Fell Flight could be replaced by the Feathered Wings graft for 10,000gp, or the Winged Helm for 13,000gp, or if these (and the myriad other cheap options) aren't available, the Phoenix Cloak for 50,000gp, or the Wings of Flying (a DMG item) for 54,000gp. Obviously, it is more effective to simply take Fell Flight than wait several levels to afford a Phoenix Cloak for 50,000gp, but the Phoenix Cloak is still more cost-effective than a tome. I honestly don't know if I would try to replicate The Dead Walk with a magic item (but if I did, it would have to be a staff, which would be unsightly high in price), and Flee the Scene and Eldritch Chain cannot be replaced entirely by magic items.

    I am of the mind that, in order to increase the Warlock's versatility, one must hunt for bargains, and compare them to his or her invocations out of necessity. This is especially true of Chameleon Warlocks, who can basically make whatever item they want by level 14, barring direct GM intervention. After all, Flee the Scene and Fell Flight are both useful invocations with a great deal of utility, and had I all the lesser invocations in the world, I would spend no shortage of them on these two; however, I have to look at what I can take, and what I can afford not to take. Both are absolute necessities to have by a certain point; however, I know I will never be able to get Flee the Scene unless I spend an invocation for it, while finding permanent flight through magic items is not only possible, but quite cheap by comparison; therefore, I need to take Flee the Scene, but can afford not to take Fell Flight (by simply taking any of the many items that emulate Fly).

    Of course, if magic items are a limited resource in your game, the paradigm changes somewhat: Fell Flight becomes absolutely necessary to take once again (because you can't replace the invocation with magic items), and any way to actually gain more invocations known is a welcome addition, but even then, cost-effectiveness has to be looked at closely; for example, if an 11th-level Warlock scrimped and saved every piece of silver he made from 1st level, and WBL was being enforced, he still couldn't buy himself a lesser invocation. This is unnecessarily prohibitive, compared to use-activated items or, more extremely, to scrolls, and the Wizard's method for acquiring new spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Just to clarify, Caster's Lament restricts one use per 24 hours on any particular target. It's not as if it can only be used once per 24 hours period.
    Aha. Oh, yeah, I read that hilariously wrong; you can, for each enchantment you are attempting to break, use it only once every 24 hours. Let me just go and change that...
    Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-08-19 at 07:27 PM.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Socratov's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    it's coming otgether nicely I think, I'm missing some things though,

    One frequently used build is the crafterlock (with 2 chameleon levels).

    And there is this feat chain of heritage feats (with fey heritage, fiend heritage, etc.) which can help the warlock increasing his passive abilities somewhat (more DR/fast healing, etc.).

    Debater of the Tyrion Lannister fanclub

    “The gods help those who help themselves, and my word, didn't I help myself.” - Avatar by the awesome Grinner

    Old avatars
    Spoiler
    Show

    Original Tyrion by Smuchmuch:



    Pony Tyrion by Elemental:


  5. - Top - End - #95
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    it's coming otgether nicely I think, I'm missing some things though,

    One frequently used build is the crafterlock (with 2 chameleon levels).

    And there is this feat chain of heritage feats (with fey heritage, fiend heritage, etc.) which can help the warlock increasing his passive abilities somewhat (more DR/fast healing, etc.).
    I will be posting an optimized Crafterlock build as soon as I've discerned the legality of a certain trick, largely because I'm concerned more with creating the "ultimate versatile build" (a Crafterlock with all the bells and whistles) than with a straight Crafterlock build (which only actually needs fourteen levels off a 20-level build).
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Actually, I'll just post the build up now, and we can have a discussion about its legality (because this seems as good a place as any to have the discussion, at least until the thread picks up more):

    Mr. Versatility, Human Warlock 12/Chameleon 2/Ruathar 3/Hellfire Warlock 3

    Ability scores: Whatever you want. I prefer to have a CHA focus with a build like this, just 'cause. I mean, the build focuses on having options, so you might as well. I recommend having at least a 12, and preferably a 14, in Intelligence and/or Wisdom by level 13 or 14, to make use of the Chameleon spells as they come.

    Skills: Prerequisites. Other than that, go crazy.

    Feats: Largely irrelevant. You are selecting Able Learner at 1st level to qualify for Chameleon, but that is it. Make safe choices or go crazy; it's all up to you. I strongly recommend Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) at some point, however.

    Invocations: Whatever you want. You are probably going to be taking the standard invocation loadout--whatever you think is "good"--and being your standard, run-of-the-mill Warlock for much of your career. At twelfth level, you have Imbue Item and a Greater Invocation--not much to write home about, but it's something--and then things start to get crazy.

    The tricks:
    At your second level of Chameleon, you gain a bonus feat... Only this one floats! Combined with Imbue Item, this means you're now making all the magic items you need. Congratulations! Additionally, you can select Extra Invocation with your floating feat to select any least or lesser invocation... Which at some point, you're going to use to select Hellrime Blast, to qualify for Hellfire Warlock.

    After grabbing Hellfire Warlock and riding out to all three levels (for simplicity's sake, these are your last three levels, from 18 to 20), you switch Extra Invocation (Hellrime Blast) for something else... And one of three things is going to happen:
    1) You don't lose your Hellfire Warlock class features. Congratulations! You just got into the class without burning an invocation known on the prereqs. Modify the above build to include a Mindbender dip, because hey, why not.
    2) You lose your Hellfire Warlock class features forever. In this case, disregard this build and fall back on "default Crafterlock build".
    3) You lose your Hellfire Warlock class features, but regain them if you somehow qualify for the prestige class again. This is the option that I am counting on (and the option that I believe is favorably regarded as being the correct one).

    You have now entered a "quantum state" with every single one of your invocations. Every time you remove Extra Invocation (Hellrime Blast) as your Chameleon feat, you lose your Hellfire Warlock class features... Including the invoking features gained therein. Your invoker caster level goes from 18 to 15, and you lose access to all your dark invocations.

    Then, the next day, you select Extra Invocation (Hellrime Blast) with your floating Chameleon feat. Suddenly, you meet the prerequisites for Hellfire Warlock again, and your Invoker caster level jumps back from 15 to 18. What happens here is clear to nobody (there certainly isn't RAW on this), but either you regain the same dark invocations that you lost (basically regaining the same three caster levels you lost prior), or you regain three entirely new caster levels that replace the old, which means that you select two new dark invocations. This is, to my knowledge, the only way in the game to modify your dark invocations known once you learn them.

    In addition to learning a new pair of dark invocations, your invocation caster level has once again jumped across the 16 mark, which means that you are once again eligible for an invocation swap. Thus, every time you select Extra Invocation (Hellrime Blast) as your Chameleon feat, you gain two new dark invocations (replacing your two old ones) and a single least, lesser or greater invocation (replacing an old one of the same level). This can happen once every two days, and can be repeated as many times as you want--as long as you DON'T swap into Brimstone Blast or Hellrime Blast (as you can then no longer stop qualifying for Hellfire Warlock). During downtime (when you would be performing this trick), you don't necessarily need the dark invocations, so you can still swap it out for item creation feats, etc., as necessary; when you wish to adventure, however, you must take Extra Invocation (Hellrime Blast), but your other eleven invocations are whatever you feel like at the time.

    Congratulations: You're now a Warlock (CL 18, 11 invocations known plus Hellrime Blast) who prepares invocations like a Wizard prepares spells... Just a little bit slower.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Allanimal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post

    Mr. Versatility, Human Warlock 12/Chameleon 2/Ruathar 3/Hellfire Warlock 3
    just out of curiosity, why Ruathar 3?
    "remember: no matter where you go... there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Allanimal View Post
    just out of curiosity, why Ruathar 3?
    Because three levels more in Warlock would have just given you scaling bonuses to DR/cold iron, fiendish resilience 2, and... Honestly, I can't remember the third thing, but it wasn't remarkable. Ruathar at least gives you low-light vision, two good saves, and a better skill list (that you can use to shore up some undeveloped skills). Also, it's the least prohibitive PrC in the game, requiring only that you have six levels and *something* to show for it, and anything else that I could think of off the top of my head would require you to make Mr. Versatile less versatile (by cutting down his options in order to qualify for more PrCs), or doesn't give anything good in three levels (and you only have three to spare, if you are crafting).

    EDIT: The Ruathar levels can be traded for other PrCs, if you so wish. For example, you could dip Mindbender by taking the Charm invocation (and you could do worse); this would net you all the power of a Mindbender dip, but at the sacrifice of versatility (either Charm is always a known invocation, in which case you have locked in one of your three "lesser" slots, or you float it, in which case your invoker level can never be 18, because you can't swing the qualifications for Mindbender and Hellfire Warlock with the same feat). Other dips and PrCs, such as Paragnostic Apostle, are less prohibitive, but lack Mindbender's power.

    Basically, "power" and "versatility" are on the same slide reel here... And I have "versatility" cranked up to eleven.
    Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-08-21 at 07:38 AM.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    On the legality of the build question:

    I was under the impression that not qualifying for your prestige class didn't actually affect your ability to progress in it or retain its features, provided that you've already taken the first level.

    The only relevant passage I can find in the SRD:

    "Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing."

    It is notably silent on any subject other than the one-time entry requirement.

    EDIT: Ah, but Complete Warrior says differently...

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    On the legality of the build question:

    I was under the impression that not qualifying for your prestige class didn't actually affect your ability to progress in it or retain its features, provided that you've already taken the first level.

    The only relevant passage I can find in the SRD:

    "Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing."

    It is notably silent on any subject other than the one-time entry requirement.
    You have to look outside the SRD to find *any* rules on losing prerequisites once levels in the class have been gained, but they are there (CW, p. 16 & CArc, p. 17). Both state (in different ways) that losing prerequisites for a PrC after you've gained levels causes you to lose all features of the class, but not the Hit Dice (actual levels) gained. No mention is made of what happens when prerequisites are regained, which continues to intrigue me.

    In any case: if this is how it is played at your table, people, then use your floating Chameleon feat to pick up Charm (for Mindbender) and Hellrime Blast (for Hellfire Warlock), and never look back.
    Last edited by Lonely Tylenol; 2012-08-21 at 07:44 AM.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    I suppose it rather hinges on whether or not "lose" in this case means "it is taken from you permanently" or "it is suppressed until such time as you requalify"

    Let's examine what I believe is an analogous model: I am a paladin who took the Charging Smite variant. I fall, losing all my class abilities. If and when I am atoned, could I get a special mount instead?

    I think it is a bit of a stretch to read it as "you relevel your character from the ground floor up," especially when you consider that the levels (i.e., the hit dice) were never actually lost.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I suppose it rather hinges on whether or not "lose" in this case means "it is take from you permanently" or "it is suppressed until such time as you requalify"

    Let's examine what I believe is an analogous model: I am a paladin who took the Charging Smite variant. I fall, losing all my class abilities. If and when I am atoned, could I get a special mount instead?

    I think it is a bit of a stretch to read it as "you relevel your character from the ground floor up," especially when you consider that the levels (i.e., the hit dice) were never actually lost.
    I'm not sure if I consider that an analogous model, as the class features are not one and the same. In my example, the class features are all one and the same; it just so happens that one of these features is modular (within that feature).

    How about this, for an analogy: I am a Cleric of Kord (CL 8), Chaotic Good, of the Spontaneous Divine Caster variant in Unearthed Arcana. Suddenly, I have a change of heart and devote myself to law, becoming a LG worshiper of Pelor. In this process, I would have to have lost all spellcasting granted to me by my god, then (instead of seeking atonement) found a new god and received power from him. Would the spells granted to me by that god, then, be the exact same spells known that I had before, when I worshiped Kord? Does this mean that I could have a Lawful Good deity who lets me cast Protection from Law?

    What if I were to atone? Same spells? What about level drain?

    What about like features elsewhere? If I am a good-aligned Cleric, who turns undead, and I fall (losing all my class features), and later go on to worship an evil deity and receive my powers from them, do I still turn undead?

    A case can be made either way on whether you can or can't choose new dark invocations when you regain the invocations class feature; after all, "invocations known" is something that is CL-dependent (and yours changes), but it's not like the levels just disappear outright. I do think, however, that you do at least gain the ability to swap invocations again. After all, you *do* lose those three caster levels (going from 18 to 15) and then gain three (going from 15 to 18), learning to cast a higher grade of invocations in the process...
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Krazzman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Aachen, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    @Lonely Tylenol:
    I would stay with the first ruling you brought up. You only need the req's for getting the first level. Else some classes wouldn't be able to take the second level and would upon taking the first lose their class features.

    I think an example for that is the Urpriest (or what was the class called where you have to not be able to cast spells?...yet?) he would lose the benefits directly.

    Hope this helps you.

    EDIT:
    Whorshipping an evil deity as a Cleric leaves you to be neutral at least, as you can only be 1 alignment away from your god. And yes a neutral cleric could turn undead. Maybe he whorships an evil deity but doesn't like undead? Together witht he level loss for changing alignment (or am I mixing that up with changing alignment from curses?) this could be the point.
    Last edited by Krazzman; 2012-08-21 at 08:47 AM.
    Have a nice Day,
    Krazzman

    Currently Playing:
    Drako:[3.5] Human Warblade 3/Fighter 2(Hiatus)
    Desmond:[3.5] Human Cleric of Tymora 3/Warlock 1(Hiatus)
    Nikolas:[PF] Human Sage Sorcerer 11(Hiatus)
    Tokias:[PF] Tiefling Heretic Lamashtu Inquisitor 3
    "Ed"uardo:[3.5] Azurin Totemist 4(Hiatus)
    Garm Frost:[SWSE] Human Scout1/Jedi1

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Socratov's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    I concur with krazzman, (for the exact same example), another example is dragon disciple with it's capstone (you can't be a dragon to take the class but the capstone makes you a dragon or something). And it would work with mindbender as well if I'm not mistaken (but I'm no expert on the matter). The floating extra invocation is versatile enough. More debated is strongheart vest (else pick a level of binder with naberius, also nice for being a face) . Cheesy is legacy champion and uncanny trickster for hellfire blast.

    I think it would do great to add a section of debated and cheesy methods

    Debater of the Tyrion Lannister fanclub

    “The gods help those who help themselves, and my word, didn't I help myself.” - Avatar by the awesome Grinner

    Old avatars
    Spoiler
    Show

    Original Tyrion by Smuchmuch:



    Pony Tyrion by Elemental:


  15. - Top - End - #105
    Banned
     
    ThiagoMartell's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    OK. The dreaded time has come.

    Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast & Hellfire Shield read like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfire
    Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
    The class specifically mentions healing that Constitution damage is fine. Wands of lesser restoration are mentioned in it's description. Any work around that deals with healing that damage is fine by both RAW and RAI - the vestige Naberius, Rods of Bodily Restoration, that kind of stuff.

    The easiest way to do so, though, would be the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. It reduces ability damage by one. The thing is - it makes you immune to Strongheart Vest Constitution damage, since it's always 1. Isn't that the same as somehow being immune to Constitution damage? RAI seems that it's not supposed to work - it's specifically mentioned the fiends want a piece of the warlock's soul, not incarnum.

    Discuss.

    Personally (and that counts very little to handbook purposes), I'd allow a player to do so then have a subplot of devils pissed off by it trying to get a piece of his soul until some archdevil simply steps up and cancels the contract or somesuch.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DMofDarkness's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    The class specifically mentions healing that Constitution damage is fine. Wands of lesser restoration are mentioned in it's description. Any work around that deals with healing that damage is fine by both RAW and RAI - the vestige Naberius, Rods of Bodily Restoration, that kind of stuff.

    The easiest way to do so, though, would be the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. It reduces ability damage by one. The thing is - it makes you immune to Strongheart Vest Constitution damage, since it's always 1. Isn't that the same as somehow being immune to Constitution damage? RAI seems that it's not supposed to work - it's specifically mentioned the fiends want a piece of the warlock's soul, not incarnum.

    Discuss.
    First off, you may wish to change the Caster's Lament description to include Lonely Tylenol's updated assessment.

    Second, this is very much a RAW/RAI conflict in addition to a power balance one, making it an issue that can't really be decided very well. I personally think of it in terms of the Blood Mage's need for actually drawing blood- it deals one point of damage to draw it, despite damage reduction or whatever. However, my opinion is simply that- mine. It's never going to be conclusively answered, because both the RAW and RAI are clear about what's going on, and contradict each other. The threads about this argument basically dissolve into whether it's better to use RAW or RAI, which is a personal taste matter and can't be conclusively answered.
    Xykon avatar by Elagune.
    Spoiler: Collection of Signature Quotes
    Show

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    eggs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    The easiest way to do so, though, would be the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. It reduces ability damage by one. The thing is - it makes you immune to Strongheart Vest Constitution damage, since it's always 1. Isn't that the same as somehow being immune to Constitution damage? RAI seems that it's not supposed to work - it's specifically mentioned the fiends want a piece of the warlock's soul, not incarnum.

    Discuss.
    RAI: Clear No.
    RAW: It's not immunity, so sure.
    Would it fly in my games: No. It's clearly abusing semantics. And I consider that a bad thing. (In games where Versatile Spellcasting Beguiler 1s cast level 2 spells, I'd imagine it would be a different story.)

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Socratov's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Well, honestly, the warlock could use it, I'd allow it on the premise that the rest of the party is noticably stronger (like JaronK's tierslist t2 stronger) (but then I'd allow it to be subdual damage to taste). If I'd allow it, I'd too make a plotpoint of it involving a cheated feeling devils (and like the Lannisters they do pay their debts).

    On the rules: it's not crystal clear. Yes DR is not immunity (even when it practically is), no it doesn't fit the fluff (and even with my taste for refluffing) and the big discussion is whether the fluff is part of the written rule. My sentiment is equal to this quote:

    Psyren as a fiendish soul connoiseur:
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I see Incarnum as being like tofu. Sure you can shape it to look like a steak, and even add steak flavoring, but it's never going to be a steak.
    and you promised the devil a steak. Is it RAW? I honestly don't know. Is it RAI? I'd say hell yes. My ruling would be to ask for a DM fiat since the rules are not really clear enough.

    Power: sure that extra level loses you a feat, but gains you a level of warlock (or something other). However, if we are speaking about power, and one of your choices os to be good at being a face, then taking a level of Binder and binding Naberius actually strengthens you ( only the healing, but the bonus to social skills as well).

    (no I will not be pulled into an argument here, this situation has arisen without a conclusion too many times, if you however are curious on why I think the way I do abou tthis, feel free to PM me)

    TL;DR: It is heavily debated, ask your DM and discuss it with him or her.

    Debater of the Tyrion Lannister fanclub

    “The gods help those who help themselves, and my word, didn't I help myself.” - Avatar by the awesome Grinner

    Old avatars
    Spoiler
    Show

    Original Tyrion by Smuchmuch:



    Pony Tyrion by Elemental:


  19. - Top - End - #109
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell;13727972

    [COLOR="Indigo"
    Feats for the Warlock[/COLOR]
    Able Learner (Races of Destiny): Human only. Your class skills remain with you forever. Good if you're dipping or if you want to qualify for Chameleon.
    Eldritch Claws (Dragon 358): As a free action, create a pair of claws. Damage is based on unarmed strike + eldritch blast. This is crazy good - you get to stack bonuses from plenty of sources, it has synergy with lots of things, the damage is really good.
    Beast Strike: Adds your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage. Very good feat for clawlocks.
    Improved Unarmed Strike (PHB): By itself, not that good of a feat. It's useful as a requirement, though.
    Grappling Blast (Dragon 358): Allows you to grapple and deal eldritch blast damage, giving a bonus in the next grapple checks. I can see this being useful in a grappler build that dips Warlock, but increasing actual size is not that good for warlocks. I'd skip it.
    Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle): Clawlocks should either take this or enter Shou Disciple. Solid damage buff.
    Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual): Clawlocks can take this feat, but they can also get it from Thayan Gladiator or the Fanged Ring. You could take this for unarmed strike as well, but you can (and should) use (Greater) Mighty Wallop instead.
    Planar Affinity (online): Change two invocations instead of one. Quite lackluster.
    Infernal Adept (online): Opens up the Dragonfire Adept feat for you. Could be quite strong - we'll mention your options later.
    Weapon Finesse (PHB): Glaivelocks should probably take this. You can use Str to attack with eldritch glaive, but that's all you'll ever get from it. Dexterity, on the other hand, applies to plenty of other stuff - initiative, Dex, Balance, Tumble, ranged attack rolls, Reflex saves... You can even be a finesse clawlock, though of course your damage output will suffer. However, if you're a ranged warlock that just uses glaive/claw onde in a while, I'd skip it.
    Touch/Ray Spell Specialization (Complete Arcane): Low, low damage bonus. I'd skip it.
    Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane): Familiar are pretty useful, since they represent a second set of actions.
    Improved Familiar (PHB): Now we're talking. Some improved familiar can speak and use magical items, so you could give them wands of important spells that can be cast during combat to save you actions (Nerveskitter and Snake's Swiftness spring to mind). If you're a Hellfire Warlock, give your familiar a Rod of Bodily Restoration and don't worry much about complaints of cheese.
    I would add a few feats from the MM:

    *Ability Focus(p303)-+2 to save DC of special attack(especially useful for Blastlocks that depend on status effect essences).

    *Empower SLA & Quicken SLA(p303 & 304)-Each useable 3/day.

    *Flyby Attack(pg303)-Make attack during move action.

    From Complete Arcane:

    *Arcane Mastery(pg73)-Take 10 on caster level checks, including overcoming SR. I always take this for my Warlocks cuz I hates me them miss chances, and combined with Spell Penetration, will almost always get past level appropriate SR.

    *Heighten SLA & Maximize SLA(pg 80 & 81)-useable 3/day. Meh.
    “Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happen to us, come because we actually deserve them? So now I take comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the Universe”- Marcus Cole

    This has become my philosophy!

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Banned
     
    ThiagoMartell's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Arcane Mastery is kind of sucky. I mean, when you have Vitriolic Blast as a an option...

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Arcane Mastery is kind of sucky. I mean, when you have Vitriolic Blast as a an option...
    Not when you face a lot of evil outsiders.
    “Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happen to us, come because we actually deserve them? So now I take comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the Universe”- Marcus Cole

    This has become my philosophy!

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Socratov's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    ehm... I haven't seen a lot of enemies who are both immune to acid and have hefty spell resistance (I think some sort of golem is one of them and that's that). And then if you throw around hellfire vitriolic blasts you will ignore spell resistance on the hellfire dice and hellfire can't be resisted (by definition)

    Debater of the Tyrion Lannister fanclub

    “The gods help those who help themselves, and my word, didn't I help myself.” - Avatar by the awesome Grinner

    Old avatars
    Spoiler
    Show

    Original Tyrion by Smuchmuch:



    Pony Tyrion by Elemental:


  23. - Top - End - #113
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Krazzman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Aachen, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Flyby-Attack... last time I checked this only worked partial for a clawlock... and only them. Seems to be not a strong option.

    Thiago, did you try to put LT's Invocationrankings into spoilers to not use 2 posts for invocations or would that still exceed the limit of the post? (I don't know, never wrote that much in a forum...^^)
    Have a nice Day,
    Krazzman

    Currently Playing:
    Drako:[3.5] Human Warblade 3/Fighter 2(Hiatus)
    Desmond:[3.5] Human Cleric of Tymora 3/Warlock 1(Hiatus)
    Nikolas:[PF] Human Sage Sorcerer 11(Hiatus)
    Tokias:[PF] Tiefling Heretic Lamashtu Inquisitor 3
    "Ed"uardo:[3.5] Azurin Totemist 4(Hiatus)
    Garm Frost:[SWSE] Human Scout1/Jedi1

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Banned
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2012

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    one can NOT take vitrolic blast

    arcane mastery works for all their invocations.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Thiyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Arcane mastery can be useful if you want to take advantage of Escalation Mage, but that's a niche case, and while nifty it is far from a must-have PrC. That it helps with SR is a nice add on at that point.
    The Complete Warrior rules on losing prerequisites for a PrC apply to all books. This bothers me enough to sig it. If you disagree, please PM me, I'm down with being proven wrong.


    Steam: Thiyr (The Great and Powerful Bulbasaur).
    SC2: RianL.377. Hit me up for some SC2 if you're on.

    Bulbabulbabulbabulba...SAUR.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Socratov's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisDon View Post
    one can NOT take vitrolic blast

    arcane mastery works for all their invocations.
    The thing is, when you don't go blasting ever, you will probably take the battlefield control route. The only way to really do that effectively is chilling tentacles, and they dont get hindered by sr, but grapple the hell out of everything. Next is the black wall of force which is (and you guessed it) no sr. The problem with sr is that it is only a problem for blaster/melee locks, solved by vitriolic blast. And the warlock is feat heavy as it is.

    If you dont take VB and target persons then it's okay i guess...
    Last edited by Socratov; 2012-08-22 at 06:31 AM.

    Debater of the Tyrion Lannister fanclub

    “The gods help those who help themselves, and my word, didn't I help myself.” - Avatar by the awesome Grinner

    Old avatars
    Spoiler
    Show

    Original Tyrion by Smuchmuch:



    Pony Tyrion by Elemental:


  27. - Top - End - #117
    Banned
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2012

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    I don't particularily care about "take 10" feats or abilities EVER, but since many players like them, it's worth a mention.

    I generally don't worry overly much about SR either, it's generally 50% failure at worst, and often far less than that. Many a caster takes spell penetration early on, to tilt the odds & beyond that, SR is an uncommon problem, really. The only way SR truly IS an issue is when adding levels & HD that increase SR but don't increase CR. When I DM I tend to fix that, but yes, it's certainly possible to "optimize" SR.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Urpriest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Stony Brook
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    Flyby-Attack... last time I checked this only worked partial for a clawlock... and only them. Seems to be not a strong option.

    Thiago, did you try to put LT's Invocationrankings into spoilers to not use 2 posts for invocations or would that still exceed the limit of the post? (I don't know, never wrote that much in a forum...^^)
    I don't think Flyby Attack is being suggested for melee warlocks. It's being suggested for Ranged, when you really do get most of your abilities done as a Standard Action.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

    Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
    Trophy!
    Spoiler
    Show


    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lonely Tylenol's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    @Lonely Tylenol:
    I would stay with the first ruling you brought up. You only need the req's for getting the first level. Else some classes wouldn't be able to take the second level and would upon taking the first lose their class features.

    I think an example for that is the Urpriest (or what was the class called where you have to not be able to cast spells?...yet?) he would lose the benefits directly.

    Hope this helps you.
    The Ur-Priest and Dragon Disciple are kind of rare exceptions, in that they are poorly written, and they're easily solved by simply stating that no class can lose its class features because its own class features cause it to fail its prerequisite (Rules as Common Sense Dictate #13).

    Nevertheless, if the abovementioned rule is in effect, then I would definitely take the Chameleon 2 dip so that I can dip Mindbender without ever learning Charm, Hellfire Warlock without ever learning Hellrime Blast, Divine Oracle without ever learning All-Seeing Eyes (I will still take See the Unseen), all by taking Extra Invocation just long enough to meet the prerequisites of the first level of the PrC... Maybe detouring into Escalation Mage by taking a single metamagic feat. If I were to Martial Study and Martial Stance up Assassin's Stance, I could qualify for Arcane Trickster without the Spell Hand feat. And so on.

    The rule gets REALLY absurd when you use the PHB II retraining rules, however.

    EDIT:
    Whorshipping an evil deity as a Cleric leaves you to be neutral at least, as you can only be 1 alignment away from your god. And yes a neutral cleric could turn undead. Maybe he whorships an evil deity but doesn't like undead? Together witht he level loss for changing alignment (or am I mixing that up with changing alignment from curses?) this could be the point.
    I am referring, specifically, to a cleric that falls (becomes evil), but no, a neutral Cleric who worships an evil deity cannot turn undead:

    Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)

    Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

    A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    I concur with krazzman, (for the exact same example), another example is dragon disciple with it's capstone (you can't be a dragon to take the class but the capstone makes you a dragon or something). And it would work with mindbender as well if I'm not mistaken (but I'm no expert on the matter). The floating extra invocation is versatile enough. More debated is strongheart vest (else pick a level of binder with naberius, also nice for being a face) . Cheesy is legacy champion and uncanny trickster for hellfire blast.
    I honestly don't see how the debate with Strongheart Vest exists, as people agree that actually dipping Incarnate and binding Strongheart Vest doesn't constitute immunity to CON damage for the purposes of Hellfire Warlock's abilities (meaning that the vest itself doesn't confer an immunity to CON damage), and Shape Soulmeld simply gives you the benefits of a soulmeld. In this case, the soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) isn't conferring unto you an immunity to CON damage in any way, so why would the Hellfire Warlock's abilities not work with it?

    I think it would do great to add a section of debated and cheesy methods
    This would be a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    [B]The easiest way to do so, though, would be the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. It reduces ability damage by one. The thing is - it makes you immune to Strongheart Vest Hellfire Warlock? Constitution damage, since it's always 1. Isn't that the same as somehow being immune to Constitution damage? RAI seems that it's not supposed to work - it's specifically mentioned the fiends want a piece of the warlock's soul, not incarnum.
    If you have DR 10/silver and magic, and an enemy hits you with a nonsilver weapon for 6 damage, you aren't immune to the attack; it has simply dealt 0 damage to you.

    Similarly, if you reduce the ability damage you take by 1, and the attack deals 1 ability damage, you aren't immune to it; it has simply dealt 0 damage to you.

    Let's look at it this way: I, a low-level Incarnate who has shaped the Strongheart Vest, am struck by a weapon coated in Greenblood oil (Injury DC13, 1 CON/1d2 CON) and fail my initial save, taking 1 CON damage, mitigated to 0. I then fail my second save (I guess my CON was never really that high to begin with), taking 1 CON damage, mitigated to 0. Does the fact that I suffered both the initial and secondary effects of the poison, but no net ability damage, mean that I am immune to poison? If I was "immune" to the initial damage of the poison (which dealt me no CON damage due to the mitigation of the Strongheart Vest), would I even need to make a secondary save?

    If the answer to the above questions are "no" and "yes", respectively, then it's because simply mitigating the damage doesn't make a creature immune to all ill effects; it just makes the actual ill effects they suffer (as a result of their non-immunity) a net zero.

    As far as RAI goes, wands of lesser restoration are specifically mentioned, meaning the ability damage was meant to be able to be healed; why is it so absurd that it could be mitigated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    Thiago, did you try to put LT's Invocationrankings into spoilers to not use 2 posts for invocations or would that still exceed the limit of the post? (I don't know, never wrote that much in a forum...^^)
    Unfortunately, spoilers still count toward the character limit, meaning it would actually be more likely to take up more posts if you used spoilers. (You could have a post that was nothing but 10,000 characters of forum code, with two lines of actual text, that would be shut down by the text limit.)

    I will try to shorten my explanations if I get the time (I know I rant and rave a bit), but it is low-priority.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Socratov's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Below sea level
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    I don't think Flyby Attack is being suggested for melee warlocks. It's being suggested for Ranged, when you really do get most of your abilities done as a Standard Action.
    This is indeed a great option. It all depends on the build you are going. If you go ranged blasting (becuase you don't want to get hurt) then flyby attack is great, jsut move half your movement into range, shoot, and move out the rest again. It loses a bit when you can quicken flee the scene though, then it's move in full, shoot and quicken flee the scene out.

    Debater of the Tyrion Lannister fanclub

    “The gods help those who help themselves, and my word, didn't I help myself.” - Avatar by the awesome Grinner

    Old avatars
    Spoiler
    Show

    Original Tyrion by Smuchmuch:



    Pony Tyrion by Elemental:


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •