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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    Thiago, did you try to put LT's Invocationrankings into spoilers to not use 2 posts for invocations or would that still exceed the limit of the post? (I don't know, never wrote that much in a forum...^^)
    Doesn't work, it really needs 2 posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    I honestly don't see how the debate with Strongheart Vest exists, as people agree that actually dipping Incarnate and binding Strongheart Vest doesn't constitute immunity to CON damage for the purposes of Hellfire Warlock's abilities (meaning that the vest itself doesn't confer an immunity to CON damage), and Shape Soulmeld simply gives you the benefits of a soulmeld. In this case, the soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) isn't conferring unto you an immunity to CON damage in any way, so why would the Hellfire Warlock's abilities not work with it?
    The problem here is more about RAI than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    If you have DR 10/silver and magic, and an enemy hits you with a nonsilver weapon for 6 damage, you aren't immune to the attack; it has simply dealt 0 damage to you.
    But if it's an attack that always deals 6 damage, yes, you are immune to it. Hellfire always deals 1 point of Con damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    If the answer to the above questions are "no" and "yes", respectively, then it's because simply mitigating the damage doesn't make a creature immune to all ill effects; it just makes the actual ill effects they suffer (as a result of their non-immunity) a net zero.
    This reasoning really does not apply to hellfire, since it only ever deals 1 damage. RAI is pretty clear - you're supposed to suffer damage. Strongheart Vest prevents that damage. So it's against RAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    As far as RAI goes, wands of lesser restoration are specifically mentioned, meaning the ability damage was meant to be able to be healed; why is it so absurd that it could be mitigated?
    Because then there is no ill effect.
    Healing means you have a window of weakness due to hellfire and even limits it's uses (even with Naberis and an odd Con score, you can only blast once a round without getting into trouble, so that means no Quicken and no Hellfire Shield).
    There is also the matter of fluff.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Because then there is no ill effect.
    Healing means you have a window of weakness due to hellfire and even limits it's uses (even with Naberis and an odd Con score, you can only blast once a round without getting into trouble, so that means no Quicken and no Hellfire Shield).
    There is also the matter of fluff.
    I think there are a few things (this stuff about RAI and RAW qualify, as the PrC stuff LT opened a thread for). You should probably mention that a few of the tricks are not legal under every DM. The hard parts I see about this Handbook are following:
    Banned books, books not available, DM think's it's too cheesy etc.

    I for my part have only the completes, core (as part 2) and ToB to build chars under the DM we play.

    Everywhere where RAW/RAI or something else conflicts you should Point to Handbookrule 13 part 37 :"Ask your dm about it".

    @LT (I hope I'm allowed to abbreviate it that way)
    I saw you opening that thread but didn't feel like writing anything worthwhile there. And yes I think it is stupid that you loose your special stuff as DD or UrPriest... now common sense would be if you loose something the class mechanical needs... then yes loosing the stuff seems pretty forward. But loosing something the PrC doesn't need mechanically like a Blackguard loosing the improved sunder feat (because of what-ever) or a Stormlord that loses Toughness... or whatever. The main problem we have here are the mentioned 3 contradicting (at least sort of) rulings. We could say that everything from CWar follows that and CArc follows it ruling, the rest follows the Core-ruling or something. But you mentioned it isn't decked with the rules.


    @Flyby attack:
    I don't know if that action is that "save". I mean RAI they didn't think about casting when they wrote that feat because of the similarities with Improved Flyby Attack and Greater Flyby Attack (I think...). RAW yes Flyby attack works for a R-Blasterlock. But maybe that wasn't intended. But now I'm thinking about taking it...
    Last edited by Krazzman; 2012-08-23 at 10:14 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    @Flyby attack:
    I don't know if that action is that "save". I mean RAI they didn't think about casting when they wrote that feat because of the similarities with Improved Flyby Attack and Greater Flyby Attack. RAW yes Flyby attack works for a R-Blasterlock. But maybe that wasn't intended. But now I'm thinking about taking it...
    RAI it's suggested for Dragons for use with Breath Weapons, and even given tactics for them in Draconomicon. It's absolutely supposed to be used for SLAs.
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    But if it's an attack that always deals 6 damage, yes, you are immune to it. Hellfire always deals 1 point of Con damage.
    But you aren't immune to the damage condition itself, even if the attack did 0 damage. If the attack did 11 damage, you would take damage. You are not immune to greatswords even with DR 10/silver and magic. You aren't even immune to longswords. You just mitigate the damage. Unfortunately, Hellfire Warlock says this:

    if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
    This is what is written. If you took 2 points of Constitution damage while wearing a Strongheart Vest, you would take 1 point of Constitution damage. You are not immune to it, since you can still take Con damage. If it had said:

    If you do not take one point of Constitution damage, this ability does not function.
    or

    if you do not have a Constitution score or somehow do not take the Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
    Then you would have a point. But no, Immunity has a specific meaning in D&D 3.5:

    A creature that has immunity to an effect is never harmed (or helped) by that effect. A creature cannot suppress an immunity in order to receive a beneficial effect.
    Can someone wear a strongheart vest and take 100d8 Con damage and still be up and kicking? No. Because they take 100d8 - 1 Con damage. They aren't immune. And this doesn't work the other way (I take 0 damage ergo I am immune), because that would be like saying:

    I have Fire Resistance 10. I am on fire. Fire does 1d6 damage to me per round, but I am resistant to it. This means I am immune to fire, ergo no fire attack can hurt me because I am taking 0 fire damage from this particular fire.

    And someone being immune to fire just because they're resistant and on fire is silly. Let's apply that to Hellfire Warlock.

    I have Ability Damage Resistance 1. I am using Hellfire Blast. It does 1 Con damage but I am resistant to it. This means I am immune to ability damage, ergo no ability damage can harm me because I am taking 0 damage from this particular ability.

    No matter how you spin it, you aren't immune to ability damage while wearing a Strongheart Vest, in the same way that you aren't immune to fire if you have Fire Resistance 10.
    Last edited by Khatoblepas; 2012-08-23 at 10:42 AM.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    @Kathoblepas

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells, page 90
    ...Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitutions damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand a part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitutiuon score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
    (bolded part emphasised by me)

    this is the whole problem, what does somehow immune mean? Is the 'your essence' part rule or fluff? This at least makes clear that you need to scrifice your constitution as a trade for the hellfire. Healing is no problem since it's basically restocking your shelves (RAI it would mean that if healing was not ok the con dmg would be drain instead). RAI: strongheart vest does not work. RAW? I couldn't say. The immunity comparison with DR sticks a bit (resistance is different since it is not immunity or DR and has no say in the matter), but it is iffy at best. Is devils wanting a piece of your soul part of the actual rules mechanics or not? It is part of the raw since it is in normal type included with the mechanics. My ruling is no, you can't have it, use wands of lesser resto or naberius instead or suffer, whatever (unless special circumstances like in my last post). But a different DM would rule according to your viewpoint. Which is why the general agreed upon solution is "ASK YOUR DM!" just to end the endless circle arguments. (if you'd still try and whine with me I'd grant it, but you'd have to answer some kind of plothooked devil wanting his due (beware some of them are very powerful), or getting regular fire damage instead (pseudo soul for pseudo hellfire). You'd get bonuspoints if you would negociate the con dmg away with a devil to gain hellfire, but that would be very circumstantial and depending on the level of the group (it would cost you dearly or corrupt you in some way though). But bottomline, there is no exact solution to this debate because of wording.

    PS: I know I promised to not go with this debate, but the flesh is weak.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    @Kathoblepas

    (bolded part emphasised by me)

    this is the whole problem, what does somehow immune mean? Is the 'your essence' part rule or fluff?
    Somehow immune means "You become immune to Constitution Damage somehow". It doesn't list feats or class abilities, all it cares about is whether you are Immune to Constitution Damage. The "your essence" part is fluff, as souls do not have an established game term beyond what is described in the Book of Vile Darkness.

    Is devils wanting a piece of your soul part of the actual rules mechanics or not? It is part of the raw since it is in normal type included with the mechanics.
    It's part of the fluff, since it's establishing WHY you take the Constitution Damage. In terms of the rules, Strongheart Vest is totally kosher.

    And in terms of fluff, you're draining the limitless energies of souls past, present, future, and those not yet in the timestream [insert actual incarnum fluff here]. I think a devil would applaud your "by-the-letter" interpretation of their contract. It's a very standard "Beat-the-Faustian-Pact" approach to dealing with devils. You will get their ire, of course, since they're still fiends, but they're the one that laid out the groundrules. You're following them to the letter...

    ... but not the spirit.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Well, that's where your opinion differs in mine. I consider the explanation part of the rule (soul isn't mentioned, just 'your' and 'essense' right next to each other).

    about the immune part, if it would have said "If somehow you have developed an immunity to ability damage" Id's say you were correct since immunity is defined. Immune is not immunity to the letter, but can refer to the act of not being harmed by it. The added word 'somehow' (in this case in a preceding place) hints to me that a broader definition is used.

    [lawyer mode]This really is a matter of discussing semantics and in that respect "somehow immune" and "immune somehow" don't carry the exact same sematics. One could argue that somehow immune refers to the end result and immune somehow refers to getting immune to the effect. In the last place it's about having full on immunity, making strongheart vest an awesome option. In the first sense (somehow immune) it refers to the end result, regarding an always 1 damage and always 1 reduction always resulting in a no damage, effectively making you immune (as per the result) to the effect, making Strongheart vest as an illegal option. [/lawyer mode]

    Then there is the fact that RAW is generally accepted at forums such as these to be leading (becuase of the only common denominator) and that most tables tend to clear up rules beforehand if the rules are not 100% clear in interpretation. So again, the most prudent action is asking the GM

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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    It's really simple, really. You can read 'somehow immune' as referring to Immunity (not that immune has no in-game definition, only immunity). Then RAI disagrees with RAW regarding the vest.
    You can read 'somehow immune' as actual English. Then RAI and RAW agree.
    In the end, of course, ask your DM.

    EDIT: Updated guide is updated!
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-08-25 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    I think this guide needs a discussion on PrC's

    The warlock general PrC's are (amongst others) Enleightened soul, Hellfire warlock (allready in there, but in the PrC section it might benefit from the explanation on it's other abilities), Acolyte of the skin, Eldritch knight, Eldritch theurge etc.

    Now, personally I'm not at all that familiar with the theurges (although a handbook those exists, so you might want to look in there).

    I'll stae what I know, discussion is welcome. If you think some of what I say is bull****, please say so, and more importantly, way why it's so and what it should be. (points spoilered for length)

    General PrC discussion
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    The warlock works iffy with caster PrC's. The general rule is that if a spellcasting level requirement is stated, you can enter the class (even though because of not so decent writing you would gain nothing from it since it would give you more spells based on a previous class, instead of invocations or spellcaster levels you so desperately need). If however a class requirers a certain level of spells you can cast you can't take levels.

    Apart form that the warlock benefits of a few key points:
    • invocations
    • bab
    • saves
    • skillpoints
    • bonus (crafter) feats
    • abilities that benefit SLA's
    • standard nice things to have like flight, mindblank, etc. (there's a list somewhere that states them all, if you find it, pls tell me, so this item can link to it)
    • particular nice things like HiPS, other means of defenses like miss chance, increased defenses, things helping your build damage, all depending on your preferred build


    This list is a general list, that said, some points may be more importaint depending on your build, and other points may be rendered moot.

    To know what you need to select, a few general pointers exist:
    1. more invocations is always a great thing to have. The warlock is starved for invocations as it is.
    2. For melee you need a good way to not get hit, to not get damage and to be able to move without losing standard or full round actions.
    3. When using a melee buildyou need to do damage. For doing damage you need ways to increase your damage done on hit (like extra dice from sneak attack and it's likes or by increasing the dice themselves (each die increase gives +1 damage on average)). To be able to do damage you need to hit. Anything increasing your chance to hit will give you less concerns for trying to hit instead allowing you to focus more on damage.
    4. For ranged combat you need ways to keep away form enemies. Anything allowing you to evade enemies or to help you not get noticed by them will help. Any round you can't hit becase you are runnign away costs you damage or actions to help your party in the fight
    5. Equally for the melee warlock, anything giving you to hit or extra damage is great. Keep in mind that opposed to the melee warlock you can't make iteratives attacks so damage might be hard to come by.
    6. Sniping is acutally very possible for a warlock, but your build will need to be geared towards it to make it work (aka, get HiPS!)
    7. Feats are nice to have, however, don't get fooled by a zillion feats since a lot of class abilities are stronger then feats alltogether. To see if you want a feat as classability or a non feat classability, seek out a feat and campare it to the classability. Compare for short term effectiveness and long term effectiveness. Feats can be retrained (if allowed), classabilities can not.
    8. a general pointer is see what the effect of choosing one over the other will bring to you long term and see if it fits your long term goals. A powerhit now with a boost later is better then a boost now and hit later.

    Hellfire warlock
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    Hellfire warlock is *the* PrC for warlocks. It gives better blasting, invocations, some item abilites and invocations. Shame it's only 3 levels though (and even that can be fixed by applying a little bit of cheddar)
    Requirements: knowledge: The Plains 13 ranks, Intimidate 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks, either brimstone blast or hellrime blast (eldritch essences) and you need to speak the infernal language.

    benefits: d6 hit die per level, 2+int skillpoints per level, +1 invocation spellcaster level per level, 3/4 bab, good fortitude save, bad reflex and will saves.

    Class abilites: Hellfire blast (+2d6 per level*): you turn your eldritch blasts into a hellfire blast adding damage dice onto your normal eldritch blast dice. It will cost you 1 con damage to use it per use. (see disputed rules section)

    Hellfire Infusion: use metamagic(empower/enlarge/widen/energy substitution) on a charged item, X times a day where X is your Cha modifier.

    Hellfire Shield: you can pull up a hellfire shield allowing to retaliate any attack with a hellfire blast allowing ref half (DC+10+1/2 characterlevel+Cha). Any time you use this you get 1 con damage. The problem here is what is defined as usage? Is it pulling up the shield? Is it using the retaliation? ASk your DM and find a reading you can both agree to.

    fire resistance 10 (stacks with warlock resistances)

    If you are not taking this as a warlock you either are not allowed to use it (per books) or you are an idiot. Anything this does is infinitely better then any other Warlock PrC and it can be used with any alignment. Ways to mitigate the con damage are heavily disputed and discussed in teh build themselves.


    Chameleon
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    Chameleon is *the* PrC for the crafterlock. Use it, love it, cuddle it do things to it that would make Cthulu lose San.

    Entry requirements: human or doppleganger race (when using ebberron also changeling), Able learner, bluff 8 ranks, disguise 8 ranks, sense motive 4 ranks, spellcraft 4 ranks.

    benefits: lots. (it's too much, so I'll just post the general best option: to dip it with 2 levels)
    d8 hit die per level, 4+int skillpoints per level, 3/4 bab, all bad saves, aptitude focus (+2) and bonus feat.

    Aptitude focus: you can pick a role allowing you to do something extra:

    pick any one: spellcasting (arcane) and some bonuses on skills, bonus on combat stats, divine spellcasting and some skillbonsues, rogue abilites without the sneak attack and some bonuses on skills, wild empathy and woodland stride including some bonsues on a few skills.

    Bonus feat: but this one is special: itcan be changed with just an hour of meditation! It lets you qualify for stuff (but you lose benefits if you change it and don't qualify anymore, which is iffy with PrC's). Use it to craft, or grab extra invocation and change it to another one once you're in need one of those you-may-need-it-sometime-but-allmost-never invocations. Ofcourse, when you are crafting, tak ethe appropiate crating feat so you can make anything you want (after lvl 12 in warlock to get imbue item)


    Will be continued...

    P.S. These PrC' are described in a short manner becuase I'm particularly lazy. If you want to expand on what I said or add to the PrC discussion, be my guest, I'll even mention you helping out

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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Just jumping on the PrC redirect:
    -Fiendbinder is the Truenaming Thaumaturgist thing, Demonbinder is the crappy DotU Warlock PrC.
    Sentinel of Bharri (BoED) might deserve a shoutout for being generally awesome (full casting and turn into a giant justicebear all day).

    And while I don't think every Acolyte of the Skin, Impure Prince or Renegade Mastermaker that will take the Warlock as a member deserves a full writeup, Warlock-eligible classes are hard enough to track down that it could be useful to at least consolidate a list of shenaniganless-entry Warlock-advancing classes (assuming there aren't too many; if there are, a filtered list would work) - speaking for myself, tht's usually the kind of info I go to handbooks for.

    EDIT:
    I'd be willing to help with that, if it sounds like throwing too much work on anyone's plate. I'm not on top of all the Warlocks powers, and would probably miss some combos if I tried to say anything about the class powers, but I could at least come up with a list.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-08-29 at 01:04 PM.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Bah, if such cheese is to be used, then one ought just strike "if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability." from the hellfire warlock class. Total limburger cheese..pee-u

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisDon View Post
    Bah, if such cheese is to be used, then one ought just strike "if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability." from the hellfire warlock class. Total limburger cheese..pee-u
    to be honest, advancing level based abilities of a 3 level PrC is a bit cheesy (depending on the op level of your party ofcourse) but beyond that it's not much more then cheddar IMO (and even then, it's an option, and rule -1 is use your common sense and confer with your DM)

    PS: what is limburger cheese? Haven't heard anything about it and I currently stay near there... is it any good?

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    It smells...it's "powerful"

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisDon View Post
    It smells...it's "powerful"
    You don't, by any chance, mean pugnent?

    Well, long discussion short, cheese is according to the group's taste

    Btw, ill update with enleightenee soul next weekend, as welk as start on the list pertaining casting advancing classes (and showcasing urpriest which fits thematically awesoem on warlock and even works as well...)

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    pugnent describes it perfectly.

    I was, of course, aiming at 2 targets BTW

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Update!

    • Races, feats and prestige classes ranked under LT's color code
    • Fixed a few typos - if you find any, please let me know
    • Added write ups for Chameleon and Enlightened Soul prestige classes
    • Added Shinomen Greensnake Naga to the races section
    • Added Mindsight to the feats section
    • Added a wands section, but it's still just a stub

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Warlock-eligible classes are hard enough to track down that it could be useful to at least consolidate a list of shenaniganless-entry Warlock-advancing classes (assuming there aren't too many; if there are, a filtered list would work) - speaking for myself, tht's usually the kind of info I go to handbooks for.
    Okay, that was a bad idea.

    I didn't realize that entering/advancing through PrCs is only half the problem; very few casting PrCs do anything useful for characters who don't technically cast.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    I didn't realize that entering/advancing through PrCs is only half the problem; very few casting PrCs do anything useful for characters who don't technically cast.
    Exactly. Abjurant Champion is good for basically any class... except for warlocks.
    The Warlock Information Compilation has a good list, it probably covers most classes. Thinblade commits a lot of mistakes regarding those classes, though (Swanmay being the most egregious).

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    I'm willing to let "Shape Soulmeld" be regarded as a debatable trick, but for handbook and optimization purposes, it should at least be considered as an option, especially if we're already considering dragon magazine feat interactions (which the entire clawlock is built upon) and other debatable rules interpretations (Changeling to get into Warshaper). My builds will include it, with the stipulation that you can drop it for a Binder dip or a Wand of Lesser Restoration if need be, but I won't generally be including Binder dips in my builds, as I don't know much about the Binder and often can't spare the level for some reason. However, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    You can read 'somehow immune' as actual English. Then RAI and RAW agree.
    Is not true. Perhaps if it said "somehow immune to the Constitution damage", it would be. But it doesn't. So it isn't. Instead, it refers to "somehow immune to Constitution damage", which means immunity to Constitution damage (the general, not the specific).

    Source: Years of tutoring, and going to college to teach, actual, proper English.

    In any case, here's a scout build for those of you, to demonstrate that the Warlock can, in fact, fulfill the scout role. It's also a method of increasing a ranged Warlock's damage without Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster (although roughly the same thing could be done with Uncanny Trickster instead of Rogue, the build would suffer in its scouting abilities for the sake of improving Hellfire Blast damage, and that isn't the point of this build). In essence, this is a scout/stealth Warlock hybrid.

    Human Rogue 1/Warlock 5/Ruathar 2/Swordsage 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Arcane Trickster 8

    Ability Scores: CON > INT > DEX > WIS > CHA > STR
    The Warlock is trying to be a skill monkey, so INT is needed to improve the Warlock's odds of making that happen.

    The level-by-level (this build will actually have one, but it is fluid, if you wish to change things):

    {table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Feats|Features|Invocations & Maneuvers

    1st|Rogue 1|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Able Learner, Spell Hand|Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding

    2nd|Warlock 1|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    ||Eldritch Blast 1d6|All-Seeing Eyes

    3rd|Warlock 2|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +3
    |Craven|Detect Magic|See the Unseen

    4th|Warlock 3|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    ||Damage reduction 1/cold iron, Eldritch Blast 2d6|

    5th|Warlock 4|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +4
    ||Deceive item|Entropic Warding

    6th|Warlock 5|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +4
    |Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest)|Eldritch Blast 3d6

    7th|Ruathar 1|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +5
    |
    +6
    ||Word of friendship, gift of the elves|Hellrime Blast

    8th|Ruathar 2|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +6
    |
    +7
    ||Low-light vision, elfwise, (Eldritch Blast 4d6)

    9th|Swordsage 1|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +8
    |
    +9
    |Martial stance (assassin's stance)|Quick to act +1, Discipline focus (Weapon Focus)|Hunter's Sense (stance), Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mind Over Body, Mountain Hammer, Action Before Thought, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

    10th|Hellfire Warlock 1|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +8
    |
    +11
    ||Hellfire Blast +2d6|Crawling Eye

    11th|Hellfire Warlock 2|
    +5
    |
    +1
    |
    +8
    |
    +12
    ||Hellfire Blast +4d6, hellfire infusion, resistance to fire 10, (Eldritch Blast 5d6)|

    12th|Hellfire Warlock 3|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +9
    |
    +12
    |Quicken Spell-Like Ability|Hellfire Blast +6d6, hellfire shield|Walk Unseen

    13th|Arcane Trickster 1|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +11
    |
    +14
    ||Ranged legerdemain 1/day, (Eldritch Blast 6d6)|Chilling Tentacles, The Dead Walk (replacing Hellrime Blast)

    14th|Arcane Trickster 2|
    +7/+2
    |
    +2
    |
    +12
    |
    +15
    ||Sneak Attack +1d6|

    15th|Arcane Trickster 3|
    +7/+2
    |
    +3
    |
    +12
    |
    +15
    |Maximize Spell-Like Ability|Impromptu sneak attack 1/day|Devil's Whispers

    16th|Arcane Trickster 4|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +13
    |
    +16
    ||Sneak Attack +2d6, (Eldritch Blast 7d6)|

    17th|Arcane Trickster 5|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +13
    |
    +16
    ||Ranged legerdemain 2/day|Noxious Blast

    18th|Arcane Trickster 6|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +14
    |
    +17
    |Empower Spell-Like Ability|Sneak Attack +3d6|Retributive Invisibility, Curse of Despair (replacing Walk Unseen)

    19th|Arcane Trickster 7|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +14
    |
    +17
    ||Impromptu sneak attack 2/day, (Eldritch Blast 8d6)|

    20th|Arcane Trickster 8|
    +10/+5
    |
    +4
    |
    +15
    |
    +18
    ||Sneak Attack+4d6|Dark Foresight[/table]

    Equipment worth considering (specific to Warlock and Rogue, in addition to the usual goodies):
    Feathered Wings graft (FF p. 210, slotless; if you can't swing this, replace The Dead Walk with Fell Flight)
    Rod of Eldritch Power x2 (Eldritch Spear and Eldritch Chain, CM p. 127, held)
    Warlock's Scepter (MiC p. 63, held)
    Wand of Sniper's Shot (SC p. 194, held, use with Eldritch Spear version of Rod of Eldritch Power)
    Greater Chausible of Fell Power (MiC p. 85, throat)
    Deathstrike Bracers (MiC p. 93) OR Bracers of the Hunter (SoX, p. 145) OR Bracers of the Entangling Blast (MiC p. 80, arms)
    Rogue's Vest (MiC p. 130, torso)
    Mantle of the Predator (MiC p. 200, shoulders)
    Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (MiC p. 105, hands)
    Boots of Elvenkind (from Ruathar, feet)

    What this build has:
    Offenses:
    Eldritch Blast 8d6. With the right items (Greater Chausible of Fell Power), this improves to 10d6, with the possibility of further improvement through charges (Warlock's Scepter +1d6-3d6, Gloves of Eldritch Admixture +2d6-4d6). Can be quickened, maximized, and empowered 3/day each.
    Hellfire Blast +6d6.
    Sneak Attack +7d6+20. With the right items (Rogue's Vest, Bracers of the Hunter, Mantle of the Predator), this improves to +10d6+20.
    In total, you should be rolling 26d6+20 damage on a single hit (average 111, maximized 151, empowered 139, maxipowered to 179), without charges, and three times a day, you can do it twice in one round. You will not be the primary single-target damage-dealer; rather, your role in the party will probably be to Eldritch Chain that damage to multiple targets at the same time, and tack on a debuff while you're at it (I picked up Noxious Blast, and for awhile at least you'll have Hellrime Blast, but you could pick another). Chilling Tentacles will be your other offensive invocation.
    Sneak attack damage will likely be delivered either through the surprise round (which you're focused on getting), winning initiative, and later Cloak of Deception, impromptu sneak attack, and being greater invisible (when it counts), but you will get it off. Rules note: the Hide rules for sniping impose a -20 penalty to your Hide check, but being 250 feet away imposes a -25 penalty to your opponent's Spot check to observe you; combined with being invisible (when it matters) and hopefully just generally being good at hiding, this could allow you to make multiple sneak attacks with your wand of Sniper's Shot as well, enough so that actually shelling out for a tome to learn Eldritch Spear outright (or just a few rods, if you're lazy or cheap) becomes a fairly good investment.

    Defenses:
    Entropic Warding helps here, as you get a 20% miss chance against ranged attacks, and you will be invisible (and later greater invisible) for most of your career, which are all well and good. You will have two good saves for most of your career (and multiclassing will make them great saves), and Mind Over Body will likely shore up your third often enough. Your greatest defense, however, is probably going to be...

    Senses:
    In addition to whatever you get out of your skill ranks, you will have a +8 to Spot and Search (+6 from All-Seeing Eyes, +2 from elfwise) and a +2 to Listen (elfwise). All three will be class skill equivalents from 1 to 20 (they become class skills, and thus get the "in-class skill" cap, from Rogue 1, and Able Learner means they will always be available at a 1:1 ratio). In addition, you will have trapfinding (Rogue 1), low-light vision (Ruathar 2), darkvision and invisibility 60 ft. (See the Unseen, and scent (Hunter's Sense stance). True Seeing, blindsense, and tremorsense elude you, although the first two can be picked up as magic items (and the third isn't strictly necessary at any time). If you so choose, you have the option of selecting Voidsense to pick up blindsense 30 ft., but it's not recommended due to redundancy and limited selection of features.
    You also have the ability to scout remotely, thanks to Crawling Eye. This is important: your Crawling Eye is what you are probably going to be using to scout ahead most of the time, since being invisible isn't a catch-all at later levels. It is also what will allow you to snipe effectively (you get somewhat close to maximum range, position the eye closer so that you don't take huge Spot penalties to single out targets out a distance, and then you snipe from maximum Eldritch Spear range with your wand of Sniper's Shot using your Crawling Eye as a vantage point; now, your opponent takes massive penalties to observe you, but you don't take massive penalties to observe your enemy).
    Lastly, as a "capstone" (which you can pick up earlier by grabbing the Charm invocation in place of any other lesser invocation and dipping Mindbender), you can communicate all this information that you gain with the rest of the party telepathically.

    Stealth:
    Hide and Move Silently are "class skills" for you, and if you were able to swing a high INT, you should have at least a decent modifier in both. Being invisible (and later greater invisible) will help, as it is essentially a +20 bonus to your Hide check. You will also likely be picking up any combination of Boots of Elvenkind (+5 to Move Silently), Bracers of the Hunter (+5 to Hide), Rogue's Vest (+2 to both) and Mantle of the Predator (+5 to both); however, all four items grant competence bonuses, and thus don't stack, so if you grab a Mantle of the Predator, Bracers of the Hunter and Boots of Elvenkind aren't necessary for their skill bonuses, and vice-versa. Shadow Jaunt is certainly an option for moving when you don't want your enemy to know where you're going (bonus points if you can Shadow Jaunt in all three directions, e.g. you can fly). Finally, you leave no trail and can't be tracked by scent thanks to Entropic Warding.

    Miscellany:
    Devil's Whispers allows you to instill Suggestions into people. Mountain Hammer lets you break all the things (and is one of the few reasons you can justify not taking Baleful Utterance). The Dead Walk is Animate Dead (which is useful for all the reasons Animate Dead is useful). Use Magic Device is a class skill (which I recommend you get enough ranks in to take 10 on wand use, if nothing else).

    Possible changes to the build:
    Remove Rogue to add Factotum: Since this build relies on a high INT, a level of Factotum in place of Rogue may suffice. You sacrifice 1d6 of Sneak Attack Damage and 8 skill points, but gain every skill as a class skill (which Able Learner allows you to basically keep indefinitely), including Concentration, which Rogue lacks (meaning you can't grab four ranks in Concentration at level 1, and have to make it up later in order to make Mind Over Body useful as a Fort save analogue). You can also add your INT to-hit, which helps in those early levels, when your Eldritch Blast is going to be suffering from a low hit chance thanks to the poor BAB that all your dips get you, but only a very limited number of times. Ultimately, I chose Rogue because it allows you to qualify for Craven early (and the late levels are so feat-starved already).

    Add Uncanny Trickster: three levels of Uncanny Trickster can be taken in place of two levels of Arcane Trickster near the end (and the Rogue level at the beginning). This trades 2d6 of Sneak Attack damage (but no invocation caster levels) for 4d6 Hellfire Blast damage, makes you decidedly less skillful to start (that first level of Rogue gives you 24 points over a first-level Warlock, and Able Learner doesn't do anything for you at this point, so your skill list is stunted), but makes up for it down the road (by being an 8+INT class itself), and allows you to take Maximize Spell-Like Ability at level 6 by making your caster levels a little more front-loaded. You could do this with Legacy Champion as well, but at that point you might as well just trash the skilled idea entirely (which is the unique feature of this build).

    Feats: If Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) is not allowed in your game or you make one of the above changes and can't fit Craven back into the build, possible replacements include Nymph's Kiss (remember, you're trying to be skillful) or the Darkness SLA feats from Drow of the Underdark (below).

    Darkness: The Darkness invocation is very useful for a stealth-based character who is intending to take advantage of the Drow of the Underdark feats. If you are allowed to take flaws (and thus move Craven and Shape Soulmeld to 1st level), consider taking Darkness as your second invocation (ECL 3), bumping See the Unseen to your third and getting rid of Entropic Warding entirely (or learning it later as a tome), and then taking Instinctive Darkness and Blend Into Shadows (which let you cast Darkness as an immediate action and hide in plain sight, respectively). If Shape Soulmeld is out of the picture (or you use either of the level switches above and can't fit Craven into the build), consider switching in one or both of these feats.

    Enjoy!
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Is not true. Perhaps if it said "somehow immune to the Constitution damage", it would be. But it doesn't. So it isn't. Instead, it refers to "somehow immune to Constitution damage", which means immunity to Constitution damage (the general, not the specific).
    Well, my point is that 'immune' is not defined in the rules. Immunity is, but immune is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Source: Years of tutoring, and going to college to teach, actual, proper English.
    Same here, actually

    Good build, btw

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Exactly. Abjurant Champion is good for basically any class... except for warlocks.
    The Warlock Information Compilation has a good list, it probably covers most classes. Thinblade commits a lot of mistakes regarding those classes, though (Swanmay being the most egregious).
    Could you list all the problems with thinblades guide please? Then I could go to the handbook discussion thread and show him these problems so that he could fix them. I would hate for a new optimizer to be mislead. Heck, since he has stated that he won't be updating the guide anymore maybe he could put a link to your guide in the handbook. After all, the purpose of the guide was to collect all the scattered optimization information about warlocks.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Well, my point is that 'immune' is not defined in the rules. Immunity is, but immune is not.
    Neither is dead.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Neither is dead.
    It actually is. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree here, buddy. This debate has been going on for years, I doubt it's going to stop now.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    It actually is. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree here, buddy. This debate has been going on for years, I doubt it's going to stop now.
    Fine. I absolutely refuse to budge on the point that Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) is deserving of mention on the guide, even if it comes with a giant asterisk and "by the way, your DM might not approve of this, so clear it with them first". Frankly, I don't care to try to convince every DM in the world that Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) needs to be allowed in their game, but everyone at least deserves to make an informed decision (and the ability to make an informed decision by way of mention, either in the feats section or its own section of the guide, benefits both the player that wants to use it, and the discerning or hesitant DM who doesn't).
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Fine. I absolutely refuse to budge on the point that Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) is deserving of mention on the guide, even if it comes with a giant asterisk and "by the way, your DM might not approve of this, so clear it with them first". Frankly, I don't care to try to convince every DM in the world that Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) needs to be allowed in their game, but everyone at least deserves to make an informed decision (and the ability to make an informed decision by way of mention, either in the feats section or its own section of the guide, benefits both the player that wants to use it, and the discerning or hesitant DM who doesn't).
    Oh, it is going to be on the guide, I didn't think for a second to leave it out. Agree 100% with you.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Oh, it is going to be on the guide, I didn't think for a second to leave it out. Agree 100% with you.
    Oh, OK. I think I had come to the conclusion that, since there is a feat section (which is complete, or no?), and this is not on it, that it wasn't going to be.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Oh, OK. I think I had come to the conclusion that, since there is a feat section (which is complete, or no?), and this is not on it, that it wasn't going to be.
    Oh, it's nowhere near complete. We still have a lot of work to do here.
    There are at least two other soulmelds that belong there - Arcane Focus and Mage Spectacles, btw.
    Combat Casting should be mentioned, Shielded Casting, Battlecaster Offense/Defense, Knowledge Devotion, Snap Kick... there is a lot to cover yet.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Fine. I absolutely refuse to budge on the point that Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) is deserving of mention on the guide, even if it comes with a giant asterisk and "by the way, your DM might not approve of this, so clear it with them first". Frankly, I don't care to try to convince every DM in the world that Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) needs to be allowed in their game, but everyone at least deserves to make an informed decision (and the ability to make an informed decision by way of mention, either in the feats section or its own section of the guide, benefits both the player that wants to use it, and the discerning or hesitant DM who doesn't).
    Ok... just on a side note... how about E6? A small part about the Warlock in E6? LT dm's it afaik and thus could provide a bit of knowledge on that part. Or is this too specific for this handbook (or would take too long?).

    I have no experience with E6 so I don't know how validate this could be.
    Have a nice Day,
    Krazzman

    Currently Playing:
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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    Ok... just on a side note... how about E6? A small part about the Warlock in E6? LT dm's it afaik and thus could provide a bit of knowledge on that part. Or is this too specific for this handbook (or would take too long?).

    I have no experience with E6 so I don't know how validate this could be.
    I'd love to include something about Warlocks in E6, but I have very little experience with it.

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    Default Re: The New Warlock Handbook [3.5, WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    Ok... just on a side note... how about E6? A small part about the Warlock in E6? LT dm's it afaik and thus could provide a bit of knowledge on that part. Or is this too specific for this handbook (or would take too long?).

    I have no experience with E6 so I don't know how validate this could be.
    I can write a sub-guide on the Warlock as it relates to E6, as I have spent a lot of time dealing with Warlocks as they relate to E6 and other low-level play (one of the player in my E6 game has made a Warlock as his back-up character, and I have worked exhaustively with him on options, and I am also in a game run by this same player, where the party belongs to an order of Warlocks that deals with toppling unfit governments), but my E6 game does not have a Warlock PC in it (yet). You'll be relying on my general knowledge and experience how E6 works (but I have a fair bit of that), and my general Warlock experience and intuition (which is what I used for the rest of my contributions), but I have never explicitly mixed peanut butter and chocolate.

    I should also include a cautionary note: the way level adjustment is handled informs a Warlock's decisions greatly in E6. For instance, if you're using the suggested level adjustment rules (where level adjustment determines point buy instead of actual level reduction), you are a Pixie Warlock. This is not negotiable: Pixies are Tiny-sized, receive all the favorable stat modifiers, have innate flight and at-will Greater Invisibility (the equivalent of a lesser and dark invocation each), and are just objectively better than almost every other race in almost every way. If you are using standard level adjustment rules, however, the LA+4 becomes very prohibitive (as you can only realistically take two class levels, unless your DM allows you to just progress as four levels later, taking ten levels' worth of experience to reach 6 class levels), and you would want to pursue another race.

    Other options become rather prohibitive, as well; a Glaivelock becomes okay, but not your absolute best damage option, and a Clawlock never scales to the point where they are reliably hitting everything (and never gets Shock Trooper, so Power Attack is not as reliable). Really, you aren't going to be the best damage-dealer in the game anyway; the selling point is that you can do it the safest, what with at-will flight and the ability to attack from 250 feet away (above) with no penalties. Basically, an E6 Warlock plays drastically differently from a 20-level Warlock, so I suppose it would be useful to have a sub-guide.
    Homebrewiness!
    Base Classes: Blood Mage
    Prestige Classes: Trophy Hunter / Spellshatterer
    Miscellany: Permanency Support
    Resources:
    Alchemical Items/Special Materials List / E6 Magic Item List

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