She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[jseah]

True! I suppose you could give it an incredibly complicated set of instructions to follow specific commands and stuff, but it's probably easier to make it sentient and just give it commands to be perfectly obedient.

I don't actually see any restriction on how fast a circuit "thinks". A bunch of chained logical decisions can effectively make a CPU instruction set (you only need goto, add and subtract for Turing completeness IIRC; although bitshift left/right and other things would simplify programming greatly), followed very shortly by assembly language powered by punch cards read via Unorthodox Trigger.

EDIT: currently thinking on a gramarie powered rocket/jet engine/scramjet thingy

[Necroticplague]

It seems to me that the black filter seems a bit cross-school. You can get an almost identical effect with a static, ablative illusion that targets all the senses. Also, why the switching between SI and customary measurements? The distances are in empirical units (inches, feet,miles), while the temperatures are given in metric (Celsius).

Also, can anyone think of a way to cool something down so you can actually use mercury outputs? Once you have one, you can use it to keep the area cold enough to make more, but the trouble is getting the first one. The only thing I can think would be to get liquid mercury, use BIOY101 to turn it into solid biomass, then turn it into an output. Actually, I think BIOY101 requires solid planetary metal, so not even that works. Maybe using Preternatural Fluids to increase the heat capacity to that a small change in temperature causes it to freeze, then making it into an output so it can maintain its cold temperature (or maybe just ramp down the heat capacity so that it doesn't change temperature quickly and stays solid).

Come to think of it, outside of Preternatural Fluids, their is on odd desire to stick with manipulating solids.

[Morcleon]

It seems to me that the black filter seems a bit cross-school. You can get an almost identical effect with a static, ablative illusion that targets all the senses. Also, why the switching between SI and customary measurements? The distances are in empirical units (inches, feet,miles), while the temperatures are given in metric (Celsius).

Also, can anyone think of a way to cool something down so you can actually use mercury outputs? Once you have one, you can use it to keep the area cold enough to make more, but the trouble is getting the first one. The only thing I can think would be to get liquid mercury, use BIOY101 to turn it into solid biomass, then turn it into an output. Actually, I think BIOY101 requires solid planetary metal, so not even that works. Maybe using Preternatural Fluids to increase the heat capacity to that a small change in temperature causes it to freeze, then making it into an output so it can maintain its cold temperature (or maybe just ramp down the heat capacity so that it doesn't change temperature quickly and stays solid).

Come to think of it, outside of Preternatural Fluids, their is on odd desire to stick with manipulating solids.

Just freeze it first, then place a bunch of red filters around it to stop heat getting in.

[Kellus]

It seems to me that the black filter seems a bit cross-school.

A lot of the principles are partially cross-school in that they use some of the same terminology and references as other schools. That's necessary for any system to stand as a whole, so that the pieces fit together properly. Ablative illusions and Black filters are similar in what they do, but also totally different. An ablative illusion actually removes a sensory output, making things invisible or inaudible or unsmellable or really really bland to eat. A Black filter is like a black curtain that you just can't see or hear anything through it no matter what. You know it's there, but there's still no getting through it with your senses.

Also, why the switching between SI and customary measurements? The distances are in empirical units (inches, feet,miles), while the temperatures are given in metric (Celsius).

I don't like this, but the game itself has an unfortunate habit of using imperial measurement for pretty much everything. 5ft. squares, hit points per inch, and so on. Everything is measured in feet. While I would be happier if I could use metric, it would just make everything way more confusing if you had to convert it all back to imperial to see what it actually does in the context of the rules.

The only exception, as you say, is temperature, because the Fahrenheit scale is just really, really dumb.

Come to think of it, outside of Preternatural Fluids, their is on odd desire to stick with manipulating solids.

Again, this is mostly because the game doesn't really have rules for interacting with liquids or gases in any way. There's lots of rules for interacting with solids, so that's what most of gramarie is all about: building solid things, moving around solid things, and so on. Preternatural Fluids is actually pretty interesting, since it sort of blurs the line between fluids and regular gramarie.

Have you considered the Living Construct subtype for your Biomech suits?

Thought about it (actually, I thought about it for biostructure itself) and it's not worth it. It already has the biostructure creature/object traits that go into a fair amount of detail about what it does and doesn't count as as far as effects go. The LC subtype was mostly just a hotfix to try to make a construct playable race, and isn't really appropriate for what BIOY is doing.

Glad you like the class, though!

I don't actually see any restriction on how fast a circuit "thinks". A bunch of chained logical decisions can effectively make a CPU instruction set (you only need goto, add and subtract for Turing completeness IIRC; although bitshift left/right and other things would simplify programming greatly), followed very shortly by assembly language powered by punch cards read via Unorthodox Trigger.

I'm... hesitant to put in too many restrictions on processing power, but saying anything is "unlimited" is a really bad idea. I think I'll keep it simple, and say that an EI can make 100 logical decisions per round.

[Nanoblack]

I hope you're happy with yourself. You've just made the below picture possible and have given me the divine insight necessary to bring that glory to fruition.

Spoiler

Show

Biostructure conversion facility and its massive guardian chassis. Giant tractor beam in the center for mass abduction... I think I just might be in the midst of creating the reapers from Mass Effect.

EDIT: Is biostructure edible? I'd like to see if it would be possible to keep my chassis fed with a diet of biostructure.

[jseah]

A Black filter is like a black curtain that you just can't see or hear anything through it no matter what. You know it's there, but there's still no getting through it with your senses.

What is considered a "sense"? Is a laser rangefinder a sense?

Does a black filter prevent say... searing light as a spell? How about a glowing rock (daylight) vs vampires/drow with a filter in-between?


Jet engine has at least two designs now (turbofan and scramjet), it is rather complicated so I need to draw some diagrams. Will do them later.
A convertible that can swap from turbofan to ramjet to scramjet as the aircraft goes supersonic then hypersonic will be nice to have but I haven't thought of a way yet. The nozzle design for turbofan (de Laval nozzle) and scramjet (aerospike) is just too different.
Power source in the form of phlogiston acceptable for sub-hypersonic speeds, needs proper fuel for scramjet operation. (temperatures are ridiculously high in a scramjet)
Afterburners in the form of Ice (phlogiston has a speed limit as temperatures will only go up) optional, and very inefficient.

One would think you could trap a piece of metal in between two yellow filters with no extra volume would then become a poor man's wall of force. Even if you hit the metal with high velocity, the metal can't get out, can't bend, can't dent. The entire filter itself will experience a slight increase in pressure, but as long as you don't excess the weight limit (spread out all over the filter area, which means ALOT), the filters will contain the hit and it just all comes out as heat and sound.
With additional preparations, you can make the metal wall increasingly hard to break.

I am planning to use this as engine lining (with red filters to block heat)... =D Either that or shell out the cash for riverine.
Orange filters aren't going to work since a speed that wouldn't break the filter is a speed you'd be better off using Polarcane Geometry to obtain. (and this engine is clearly for speed junkies so you'ld be using Polarcane Geometry anyway, gravity AND magnetic; and then go even faster with this)

[Kellus]

I hope you're happy with yourself. You've just made the below picture possible and have given me the divine insight necessary to bring that glory to fruition.

Spoiler

Show

Biostructure conversion facility and its massive guardian chassis. Giant tractor beam in the center for mass abduction... I think I just might be in the midst of creating the reapers from Mass Effect.

Okay, now that would be impressive.

EDIT: Is biostructure edible? I'd like to see if it would be possible to keep my chassis fed with a diet of biostructure.

Yes, it's a creature, so it could certainly be used for sustenance.

What is considered a "sense"? Is a laser rangefinder a sense?

Does a black filter prevent say... searing light as a spell? How about a glowing rock (daylight) vs vampires/drow with a filter in-between?

Clever girl...

Yes, any means of gaining information about the other side of the filter fails. The laser rangefinder doesn't go through. I would even go so far as to say that all light and sound fails to penetrate it, so yes, you can block searing light and daylight with it. Someone earlier I think was using Black filters to shape the cone of sound on a sonic cannon.

Jet engine has at least two designs now (turbofan and scramjet), it is rather complicated so I need to draw some diagrams. Will do them later.
A convertible that can swap from turbofan to ramjet to scramjet as the aircraft goes supersonic then hypersonic will be nice to have but I haven't thought of a way yet. The nozzle design for turbofan (de Laval nozzle) and scramjet (aerospike) is just too different.
Power source in the form of phlogiston acceptable for sub-hypersonic speeds, needs proper fuel for scramjet operation. (temperatures are ridiculously high in a scramjet)
Afterburners in the form of Ice (phlogiston has a speed limit as temperatures will only go up) optional, and very inefficient.

As a pilot I absolutely adore this. Can't wait to see your diagrams!

One would think you could trap a piece of metal in between two yellow filters with no extra volume would then become a poor man's wall of force. Even if you hit the metal with high velocity, the metal can't get out, can't bend, can't dent. The entire filter itself will experience a slight increase in pressure, but as long as you don't excess the weight limit (spread out all over the filter area, which means ALOT), the filters will contain the hit and it just all comes out as heat and sound.
With additional preparations, you can make the metal wall increasingly hard to break.

This is a very clever way to make an unbreakable sheet of metal! The only limit to it does seem to be the weight restriction on the filters themselves... And of course it's also vulnerable to things like acid or alkahest that would just chew through it. But that's a brilliant way to spread out the force from a kinetic impact or support massive loads without deformation.

[Omnicrat]

What is considered a "sense"? Is a laser rangefinder a sense?

Does a black filter prevent say... searing light as a spell? How about a glowing rock (daylight) vs vampires/drow with a filter in-between?

Yes to all of that. In fact, those things are pretty much the point.

A convertible that can swap from turbofan to ramjet to scramjet as the aircraft goes supersonic then hypersonic will be nice to have but I haven't thought of a way yet. The nozzle design for turbofan (de Laval nozzle) and scramjet (aerospike) is just too different.

Semispaces. The answer is always semispaces.

Power source in the form of phlogiston acceptable for sub-hypersonic speeds, needs proper fuel for scramjet operation. (temperatures are ridiculously high in a scramjet).

Just use red filters to contain the heat and keep using it as fuel.

One would think you could trap a piece of metal in between two yellow filters with no extra volume would then become a poor man's wall of force. Even if you hit the metal with high velocity, the metal can't get out, can't bend, can't dent. The entire filter itself will experience a slight increase in pressure, but as long as you don't excess the weight limit (spread out all over the filter area, which means ALOT), the filters will contain the hit and it just all comes out as heat and sound.
With additional preparations, you can make the metal wall increasingly hard to break.

1) Most projectiles are metal or stone anyway, so this is a bit redundant.
2) If you layered it with a few red/yellow layers, you could make the the metal molten (it would take a LONG time, but 100 ballistic engines firing wood chips could do it) or start with it molten with at least one solid layer in the back. That way, even if they break your front layers of filters, they are flooded with glowing-hot molten metal!
3) Is it even possible to break through the metal under these conditions? No matter how damaged it is, as you said, it has no where to go. Even the Molten layers would still be as dense as the solid ones.

[Omnicrat]

This is a very clever way to make an unbreakable sheet of metal! The only limit to it does seem to be the weight restriction on the filters themselves... And of course it's also vulnerable to things like acid or alkahest that would just chew through it. But that's a brilliant way to spread out the force from a kinetic impact or support massive loads without deformation.

How does the weight restriction work? If I have 100 1x1 yellow filters, does it support 100 times more than a single 10x10 filter?

[Quester]

I don't actually see any restriction on how fast a circuit "thinks". A bunch of chained logical decisions can effectively make a CPU instruction set (you only need goto, add and subtract for Turing completeness IIRC; although bitshift left/right and other things would simplify programming greatly), followed very shortly by assembly language powered by punch cards read via Unorthodox Trigger.

I'm... hesitant to put in too many restrictions on processing power, but saying anything is "unlimited" is a really bad idea. I think I'll keep it simple, and say that an EI can make 100 logical decisions per round.

I would of thought a chassis's ability to process information would be controlled by its wisdom and intelligence score.

Also to make a filter cube you would have to prepare the principle 6 times, seeing the principle can only be used to make 2d shapes, right?

I just realized how useful the ability to convert gasses could potentially be. Just of the top of my head you could make an underwater structure and fill it with air by vaporizing surrounding water.

Would a closed cube of filters count as a container for going through filters?

[Omnicrat]

Can two gramarists work on HEUR 302 or gramarie grafts, one person prepairing 302 or making the graft while the other prepares the principle to be reproduced?

[EdroGrimshell]

Nother interesting question, could you have a chassis that eats organic materials and uses everything but carbon, producing diamonds as waste?

[Omnicrat]

Nother interesting question, could you have a chassis that eats organic materials and uses everything but carbon, producing diamonds as waste?

Cheapest resurrection spells ever.

[Quester]

Nother interesting question, could you have a chassis that eats organic materials and uses everything but carbon, producing diamonds as waste?

Now that it has true life, it also requires a normal diet, including water to drink and food to eat.

An interesting idea but I don't think not processing carbon is a normal diet, and even if you could you wouldn't get diamond with out tremendous pressure and heat, so you would only get raw carbon.

Can two gramarists work on HEUR 302 or gramarie grafts, one person prepairing 302 or making the graft while the other prepares the principle to be reproduced?

As part of this principle you must also prepare a principle which has an immediate effect such as an alchemetric transformation or a kaleidomantic filter

It does specify that you (the person preparing the principle) prepare the auxiliary principle as part of HEUR 302, so by that interpretation no.

Some one may have already asked, but could you give us the weight per cubic feet of non-planetary substances, like wood, crystal, ice and stone?

[Necroticplague]

An interesting idea but I don't think not processing carbon is a normal diet, and even if you could you wouldn't get diamond with out tremendous pressure and heat, so you would only get raw carbon.

This gives me an idea for a diamond generator: A red filter box inside of a orange filter box. The gradually increasing to incredibly high temperature, combined with the fact that the air can't escape, would create massive amounts of pressure based off the high temperature. Hold a piece of charcoal in the generator using a something that isn't your hand, watch it slowly get compressed into a diamond. To make the heat go up faster, use phlogistinate.

[Amechra]

Out of curiosity, what would a Grammarie-using world use as currency once the general tech level hits Magisterial levels?

I'm going to be playing in a (NSFW) campaign where there is a magical byproduct for... naughty things, which essentially is currency (with fascinating sociopolitical consequences.) Since the byproduct breaks down quickly even if not used, it works wonders as a form of income and (short term) money.

So, in other words, a Magisterial-level world would have to figure out some other currency. Perhaps Platinum based? Or maybe it is based off of how many Ebbs you generate in your home generator, which you can then send to your friends in Red-cell batteries?

Ooh, ooh, maybe you can charge a dull grey Ioun stone with a ebbs, and have that be the currency; a Dull Grey Ioun Stone costs 25gp, so you could have one store 25 virtual ebbs, and you could transfer those ebbs between DGISes with no loss, with each virtual ebb counting as 1 GP.

These ebbs can't be used to power a circuit (think of it as trying to power a computer with a lemon battery), and normal ebbs can only be added to the economy by creating new Dull Grey Ioun Stones; of course, the secret to making Dark Grey Ioun Stones is closely regulated by the government, and well, inflation starts to hurt once you have too many of them in the economy, which prevents governments from just making billions of them.

Now, here's what I think is neat about this: spells that cost a number of GP to cast? If you are in a Wood field that is putting out Ebbs, you can simply use an amount of ebbs equal to the material component cost to cast whatever spell you want.

Of course, for anything like, say, Raise Dead, you would cause nearby city lights to flicker out briefly, since you would need heinous amounts of energy (11 P/I generators, all hooked up to Wood outputs, all centered around a Wood Inputm which is itself connected to a Wood Output, would get you the necessary juice. It's gonna tingle, though.)

This variant would, of course, replace Eschew Material Components (if you can get an Ebb emitted to you, you get pretty much the same effect.)

[Qwertystop]

This gives me an idea for a diamond generator: A red filter box inside of a orange filter box. The gradually increasing to incredibly high temperature, combined with the fact that the air can't escape, would create massive amounts of pressure based off the high temperature. Hold a piece of charcoal in the generator using a something that isn't your hand, watch it slowly get compressed into a diamond. To make the heat go up faster, use phlogistinate.

Thing is, whatever you use to hold the diamond would also be completely destroyed. And once the pressure gets high enough, it would be really really hard to actually get the diamond into the box, so you couldn't set it up ahead of time.

[Necroticplague]

Thing is, whatever you use to hold the diamond would also be completely destroyed. And once the pressure gets high enough, it would be really really hard to actually get the diamond into the box, so you couldn't set it up ahead of time.

I actually thought of this, and (I think) I have a solution. Instead of being free-floating, the generator is inside a small piece of yggdrictecture, whose entrance is inside a small bag. So you don't need to hold the charcoal, just fling it into the bag, the turn it upside down and dump out the diamonds a few hours/days later. Do of course, be careful when opening the bag, after running long enough, the pressure will be so great that the diamond will end up being shot out of the bag like a bullet when opened (I'm assuming the space is just large enough to hold the generator so the coal/diamond can't go anywhere else until the bag's opened).

[Nanoblack]

I'm not as versed in how all of this science-y stuff works, but what's to stop the gas molecules from just escaping the red filers once they get so hot? Heat rises, right? So once they get so hot, they'd just get carried out of the filters by the momentum and immediately cooled back down.

[Necroticplague]

I'm not as versed in how all of this science-y stuff works, but what's to stop the gas molecules from just escaping the red filers once they get so hot? Heat rises, right? So once they get so hot, they'd just get carried out of the filters by the momentum and immediately cooled back down.

The orange filters, which trap loose gases.

[Amechra]

You... do realize that diamonds burn, right?

The only reason why they convert underground is a lack of oxygen; since you are using atmospheric gas, unless you can figure out a way to remove oxygen (hey, burning stuff inside the filter box would work for that, actually. Or a Chassis that breaths oxygen and emits another substance).

So, in other words, you are leaving out a step; vacate any oxygen inside that area, and then heat it up, dump a piece of carbon in, and then dump it out.

Say... how high a pressure do you think we can get? Do you think we could hit one NI high?

I kinda want to see if we could pull off a fusion reactor...

[General Patton]

Thing is, whatever you use to hold the diamond would also be completely destroyed. And once the pressure gets high enough, it would be really really hard to actually get the diamond into the box, so you couldn't set it up ahead of time.

EI controlling gravity flux. Antigrav stasis fields are the solution to all remote material handling problems.

[Qwertystop]

I actually thought of this, and (I think) I have a solution. Instead of being free-floating, the generator is inside a small piece of yggdrictecture, whose entrance is inside a small bag. So you don't need to hold the charcoal, just fling it into the bag, the turn it upside down and dump out the diamonds a few hours/days later. Do of course, be careful when opening the bag, after running long enough, the pressure will be so great that the diamond will end up being shot out of the bag like a bullet when opened (I'm assuming the space is just large enough to hold the generator so the coal/diamond can't go anywhere else until the bag's opened).

But once the pressure builds up, the diamond won't be able to go through the border into the generator. It doesn't matter whether it's in a semi-space or not.

[Necroticplague]

But once the pressure builds up, the diamond won't be able to go through the border into the generator. It doesn't matter whether it's in a semi-space or not.

hmmm....
Could a reverse-geometry flux be used to force the two together?

[jseah]

Semispaces. The answer is always semispaces.

Wait till you see the design. The two are so different that I don't see where to begin (they won't help since its a question of nozzle spread vs air pressure; which I can't see semi-spaces helping)

Just use red filters to contain the heat and keep using it as fuel.

I already assume my entire engine is red filtered to keep the heat down. The problem is that phlogiston is only 1000 degrees (or 2k if you use the super version). They're good for preheating (I can see the use of a pholgiston-lined intake) to increase air flow, but at mach 5, you need to keep adding heat.

1) Most projectiles are metal or stone anyway, so this is a bit redundant.
2) If you layered it with a few red/yellow layers, you could make the the metal molten (it would take a LONG time, but 100 ballistic engines firing wood chips could do it) or start with it molten with at least one solid layer in the back. That way, even if they break your front layers of filters, they are flooded with glowing-hot molten metal!
3) Is it even possible to break through the metal under these conditions? No matter how damaged it is, as you said, it has no where to go. Even the Molten layers would still be as dense as the solid ones.

I wasn't actually intending them as armour plating. I needed a material that would withstand large constant forces and not deform. We can do it in RL with some expensive special materials, but D&D metallurgy kinda sucks.
And of course, applying gramarie to the problem is a plus since you know, that's what this thread is about.

I could always use magic (wall of force comes to mind), but what's the fun in that? I could build a perfectly good cee-fractional reactionless drive using magic items and some questionable tricks with ring gates, but that's not the point. =D

[Morcleon]

Could you please move Handle Animal in front of Heal? The lack of alphabetical order annoys me every time I try to copy down the list.

[Omnicrat]

Wait till you see the design. The two are so different that I don't see where to begin (they won't help since its a question of nozzle spread vs air pressure; which I can't see semi-spaces helping)

Have both noses in different semispaces that you can swap on the fly with a mechanism. You'll probably need something alot better than that at such high speeds, but still its a start.

I already assume my entire engine is red filtered to keep the heat down. The problem is that phlogiston is only 1000 degrees (or 2k if you use the super version). They're good for preheating (I can see the use of a pholgiston-lined intake) to increase air flow, but at mach 5, you need to keep adding heat.

Hm... Capture the heat of the sun somehow?

I wasn't actually intending them as armour plating.

Regardless of intent, there is always another application. Dynamite comes to mind.[/QUOTE]

[jseah]

Have both noses in different semispaces that you can swap on the fly with a mechanism. You'll probably need something alot better than that at such high speeds, but still its a start.

Well, design for Turbojet with basic calculations. I skimped out on calculating the flow but it's late and I'm getting lazy.

Spoiler

Show

This nozzle is basically a funny shaped tube that you stick under a wing or build an aircraft around.

The aerospike has this huge thing right down the middle. And if it goes up to scramjet designs, the huge thing is actually the aircraft body and the engine is built around the aircraft instead of the other way around.

Hm... Capture the heat of the sun somehow?

You want to build a Sunmetal powered version of the Orion drive? Go ahead, be my guest.

I'll... be... right... over... here...
ooo, I hear holidays in Milawee, that nice island on the other side of the world, is all the rage nowadays. Well, cya, and don't kill yourself with that thing.
caster who has teleport wanted urgently! oh gods, let me leave before he does a test fire...

[General Patton]

Oh Celestia, we've got legit engineering up in here. This man is now the patron-saint of magitek.

[jseah]

You're likely to find that actual thrust is going to be alot lower though. The nozzle will be underexpanded at higher altitudes because ambient pressure is lower, but it's more stable this way.

Also, you might find that you need to regulate the airflow with fins or even a proper turbine after the gust of wind section. Someone with actual aerospace engineering can do that. I'm just a guy with a calculator and wikipedia.

...

Come to think of it, aircraft in this world are going to be rather different. That Eldrikinetic airship picture has got to be practically the worst way you could design an airship. And no, eldrikinetic engines are just plain bad.

*grin* I'll procrastinate on the aerospike for now, designing an airship first.