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2012-08-20, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
So the maximum size of a semi-space isn't even large enough to fit a person inside without crouching down? I'm not sure why you'd even bother creating a flux inside one at that point.
One other question I forgot to ask: Is there any way to store ebbs without Orichalcum? If you absorb energy from with a transformer, it must be used then and there or it dissipates, correct? For example, could a Ballistics engine store ebbs of puissance needed to fire it and save it for later?
Also, changing a Hueristic circuit seems like a pain if you need to beat your own autohypnosis check every time you do it. What if you roll a 20 while setting it up, and as a result you only have a 1/20 of being able to change it? Or can you bypass the need to roll a check if you are the one who set up the circuit?Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-20 at 10:59 PM.
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2012-08-21, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Hey, people like it! But seriously, let's respond:
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by Zale
Originally Posted by Eldan
Originally Posted by Vauron
Originally Posted by Amechra
But seriously, that's pretty badass.
Originally Posted by bobthe6th
Originally Posted by Amechra
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by Ziegander
But hey, glad you like it! And that goes for the kind words from everyone!
(next page of responses in next post)
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2012-08-21, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Originally Posted by sirpercival
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by Eldan
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by Welknair
Originally Posted by Answerer
Originally Posted by Merchant
Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage
Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage
Originally Posted by Morcleon
2. Can you combine phlogiston with a ARCD 350 ice input transformer to generate an infinite source of ebbs? Blue ice, preferably with an ALCH 101 heat capacity decrease...
3. Can kaleidomantic filters be shaped into spheres, cubes and other hollow shapes?
4. If two arcanodynamic transformers have the same area of net, say a silver and an ice, and a polar ray is cast into the area, which net takes precedence?
5. Can a heuristical circuit reach into an open extradimensional space (a bag of holding, an enveloping pit, etc.)? What about a closed one?
6. How does one extract/store ebbs in orichalcum?
7. Can't you simply take five transformers (one each crystal, copper, tin, ice, mercury) and give yourself universal energy immunity for a ridiculously low price?
8. For spectroconstruction, is the "+3 for every additional time per day you activate it" a +3 to your check or a +3 to the DC?
9. Can you put the number of daily uses next to the "Spectroconstruction" entry on the table (1/day, 2/day, etc.) so it's a bit easier to tell without having to count the number of previous entries?
10. What are specialists of each discipline called? Perhaps... Alchemaster, Arcanodynamicist, Eldrikineticist, Heuristicist, Imachinater, Kaleidomancer, Yggdratect)
11. What is the significance of the maximum speeds for the larger objects? Is it an arbitrary number based on size, or is there an equation behind them?
12. Is there a way to increase the fly maneuverability for a two-part engine?
13. Can you upgrade an existing item's skill check/bubble? How would one go about doing this?
14. Do arcanodynamics transformers have to be 1 cu ft? Can they be smaller?
15. Would the following arrangement work?
By the way, awesome questions! Thank you for the input!
Originally Posted by Omnicrat
Originally Posted by Orderic
Originally Posted by Orderic
Originally Posted by afroakuma
Originally Posted by Eldan
Originally Posted by Merchant
Originally Posted by Orderic
Originally Posted by LordotheMorning
Originally Posted by Vauron
EDIT: Okay, I checked it out, and the reason for the confusion was that YGGD 101 specifically creates 2ft. x 2ft. x 2ft. cubes, instead of letting you shape 8 cubic feet of extradimensional space. This is mostly to prevent silliness abusing weird shapes. Now, YGGD 241 specifically mentions that it lets you prepare YGGD 101 up to 8 times on the same space, so while it does only say that you have 64 cubic feet, it's implied that that space is made up of eight 2x2x2 cubes arranged however you want and attached to each other. I clarified this in the text. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!
Thank you everybody for the kind words! Now I have some revisions to make!Last edited by Kellus; 2012-08-21 at 02:39 AM.
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2012-08-21, 03:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
I did a bit of number crunching and theory crafting, and I'm finding the numbers on Eldrikinetic engines to be a little difficult to work with.
I started off by trying to create a gun:
A solid cubic foot of coal weighs around 84 pounds, meaning it takes 28 pounds of coal just to fire a bullet, which deals 1d3 points of damage. The price of lowest quality coal I googled and found to be about 38 cents per pound, meaning it costs $10.64 to fire a standard ballistic engine once. From the estimations I found here, a gold piece is probably between 80 and 160 dollars. For the sake of math, I'll assume it's worth $100.
The result is that it costs one silver piece to fire a ballistics engine with enough push to fire a bullet, dealing 1d3 damage, assuming that our modern exchange rates are any sort of fair reference. Alternatively, a cubic foot of loose coal pieces weighs between 40 and 60 pounds, meaning it would still take 13 to 20 pounds of coal, costing between 5 and 7 copper pieces.
This doesn't sound too bad until you consider that a bow doesn't cost anything to fire (except for the arrows themselves) and deals 1d8. And where are you going to keep all that coal? 28 pounds per shot, compared to .1 pounds per shot that you'd get firing an arrow, makes it a pretty cumbersome form of ammunition.
If Yggdratecture works the way I hope it does, and objects inside a semi-space are weightless, you could potentially solve this problem with YGGD 241 by creating a weightless chamber for coal that could be as large as you need it to be (by creating semi-spaces within semi-spaces). Seeing as how the engine to launch your bullet in the first place would be large enough to warrant the use of semi-spaces in the first place, the engine could be placed in a semi-space, with more semi-spaces holding coal directly above it. Thus, you could end up with a fairly elegant looking rifle whose moving parts are all in a semi-space mounted on it's front. The barrel of the ballistics engine would presumably exude from the semi-space for aiming purposes, like this:
Spoiler
Again, this sounds managable, but creating a gun in this way would require the use of your specialization, a very valuable commodity seeing as how you only get one, in Yggdratecture. Pulling this off without YGGD 241 would be difficult. A cubic foot of copper weighs about 550 pounds, which means you sure as hell aren't going to be carrying around 8 times that much unless the completed engine weighs less than the materials you need to make it (?), but fortunately you have just enough room to store 8 cubic feet in a non-upgraded semi-space. From there you'd have to rig a device to hold another semi-space above that one to load coal into an input device that also pokes out of the first semi-space, like this:
Spoiler
(My apologies if the text is a little hard to read.) This doesn't take into account a third loading mechanism for the actual bullets. Depending on how much coal can be held within the engine itself(?), and if it can do the same with bullets (?), these extra semi-spaces may or may not be necessary. Regardless, if you do not specialize in Yggdratecture, you will not be able to upgrade the amount of push your gun creates due to space and weight limitations (you can only fit one engine inside a 2-by-2-by-2 semi-space), which means you'll be stuck with 1d3 damage unless you don't care about being able to take the gun with you (such as if you wanted to mount it on a ship). Either way, despite all these hoops we jumped through, we're still far inferior to a simple bow.
At this point, the only way to make this model better would be to change the ammunition to something that takes better advantage of the Gramarist's abilities. I suppose you could shoot Phlogiston for 1d6 fire damage, but that's only if you wanted to specialize in Alchemetry. The only other idea I have would be to create a huge heuristic circuit around yourself and literally launch output Arcanodynamic transformers at the enemy which are set to contingently resume output on contact with your target (Related question: can you have multiple output transformers keyed into the same input if you only use one at a time?). Due to the size requirement of transformers, though, they'd be too bulky to go fast enough do any projectile damage. Anyone else have any ideas?
EDIT: Would it be possible to create a Kaleidomantic net gun? Essentially, use the same trick with a large heuristic circuit, and launch the spatial reference of a Kaleidomantic barrier, which is contingently set to activate upon being launched? The result would send a yellow or purple barrier flying at your target, but I wouldn't even know how to rule the aftermath of doing something like that... Either way, I don't think it works because you can't suddenly activate Kaleidomantic barriers, can you?
Now what if I wanted to bite the bullet, take Yggdratecture specialization, and upgrade the engine size using the former model instead of the latter? Shooting arrows at mach 3, for 2d8 damage that hits flat-footed touch sounds pretty good.
One could fit an engine of up to 64 cubic feet inside an upgraded semi-space, which means it would generate 1,600 push instead of 200. 20,000/30 = 666.6, so unless our Push/Bulk is close to that, we're not getting anywhere near Mach 3. 1,600 push divided by the 8 bulk of an arrow is only 200, which results in a speed of 6,000 ft., which isn't even enough to break Mach 1! Maybe we can at least shoot arrows one size category larger? 1600 push divided by 27 bulk, multiplied by 30 is... 1,778 ft., just 22 ft. shy of projectile speed. Fortunately, bullets with a bulk of only 2 could be fired at 24,000 ft., which is enough to break mach 3 by a healthy margin. The best we can do with a handheld gun seems to be 2d3, but it hits on flat-footed touch, which isn't bad. If you have any static modifiers, the double damage could actually be quite delicious. Does that double damage work with sneak attack dice?
So what is the cost? One shot of this gun is going to burn a whopping 224 pounds of coal! This is admittedly only around 8 sp per shot, which all things considered doesn't seem all that bad, but that's still a lot of coal to have to get your hands on! The most considerable price is still definitely the fact that you would have to use your specialization in Yggdratecture to pull this off. There's also enchantments to consider. Could you enchant this gun the way you could a normal bow? Could you give it properties? How would returning bullets interact with it?
EDIT: It occurs to me now that you could afford to use less push to get a bullet going mach 3. Those extra numbers in 24,000 don't do anything, so it would cost a little bit less than I thought.
Could I fit an even larger engine inside a semi-space if I were to link it to a second semi-space, or would that violate the rule that says it must be a single solid unit? Could I store an 8-by-8-by-4 solid piece inside two linked semi-spaces?
It seems to me that increasing the push of a Ballistic engine to 300 or even 400 wouldn't be a bad idea. 300 base push would allow for mach 1 arrows, or for tiny-sized objects to reach projectile speed. 400 wouldn't allow any increased benchmarks, but it would still make it a little bit easier on the resource demand. It's seems reasonable to me that a one-time launch engine could exceed the power of a continual motion engine like orthogonal by more than just x2 without being too ridiculous.
Now I'd like to move on to the concept of an air-ship. Due to the abundant nature of sunlight, we don't have to worry about fueling the ascending engine, but there's still the orthogonal part to consider. To move an airship at 30 ft., you'd need at least 512 units of push, which means at least 6 Orthogonal engines to manage a 35 ft. speed. This would require 6 cubic feet of wood per round. It was difficult to find an estimate the average cubic feet of wood in a tree via google, but I finally found a statistic saying that an average of two trees go into a unit called a cord, which as an 8 by 8 by 4 stack of wood, for 128 cubic feet. Now, a cord is has empty space in it, because it's just a bunch of logs tightly stacked together, so it's probably closer to 100 or 90 cubic feet of actual wood. The end result is that a tree will produce an average of about 50 cubic feet of wood, which is enough for a little over 8 minutes of travel with my size 6 orthogonal engine. Certain trees, like adult Oak, will produce much more, and other trees like Aspen will produce much less.
In order to power my airship, I'm burning a tree every eight minutes minutes or so, or 7.2 trees in an hour. Moving at 35 ft., I'm going at about 7 miles per hour (according to the PHB), so I'm burning a little more than one tree per mile. Assuming the ship can run 24 hours a day, I could cover 168 miles in a day, which is probably around 173 trees, or 8640 cubic feet of wood.
This provides another big logistics problem. A cubic foot of wood is going to weigh anywhere from 25 to 60 pounds, so even at it's lightest that's going to be 216,000 pounds of wood! I can't take all that on board without increasing the bulk of the ship, can I? By how much would it increase? How much energy could I save by installing sails on my airship? Where am I'm I gonna get all this wood? Can I buy it? Can I used Spectroconstruction to harvest it? Am I not just inviting the DM to throw angry druids at me?
Overall, I think it might be easier to measure out materials required in terms of weight instead of cubic feet. Heavier wood is obviously denser, which means the engine should get more energy from it. The same applies to coal and various other fuels. Could it perhaps be that Eldrikinetics has a little too much resource demand for a little too little push?
In order to make the class playable in a normal session, I think we're going to need a lot more information. There ought to be a chart of all the materials a Gramarist might need to use, their weight per cubic foot, their price per cubic foot (or per pound), the amount of man-hours it would take to harvest or mine a cubic foot (or the amount one could harvest in one use of Spectroconstruction), so that logistics questions don't take so much research to answer. I have no problem googling stuff like this, but if I have to do it in the middle of a session, the rest of my group is going to be cross with me.
I'm also really eager to know what the prices of Sunmetal, Orichalcum, and other ascended metals are, because one of the first things I'd want to do would be to buy an Orichalcum battery. That might be tricky to balance. If it costs too much, then Alchemetry specialization becomes a gold mine. Too little, and who would ever want to specialize in Alchemetry?Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 05:17 AM.
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2012-08-21, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
I don't want to double post, but my last one was getting so hairy I figured I should start over since this is a new subject.
I looked over the Kaleidomantics section again, and I'm afraid I'm not clear how their spatial references are supposed to work. You can fix a barrier to a point in space, that much is obvious, but I'm not sure what happens if you connect it to an object, because the barrier is essentially 2-dimensional. If you set up a purple barrier affixed to, say, a foot-long bar of metal, could you then simply grab the bar and slide the barrier to the side like a door? (It would be important to note that a non-stationary purple barrier wouldn't have any collision with the ground.)
Can the spatial reference be affixed to the barrier by one of the ends instead of the middle, and can the object therefore be something like the threshold of a doorframe? I could set up a submarine with blue barriers if so (or a spaceship with orange barriers and gravity fluxes), but I would need to be sure that the barriers would move with the submarine.
Can I create a purple barrier so slim that it acts like a piercing weapon? Could I then make what would essentially be a brilliant energy spear by affixing it to one end of a hilt or shaft? (though not a slashing or bludgeoning weapon because I think those would require weight to do damage). If this is the case, and I really hope it is, one could then potentially increase the damage dice on my gun design by having them shoot razor-sharp discs of superlunar pigment bound to bullets. The effective size and weight would remain the same, but I would essentially be shooting large chakram at that point. The final step would be to carve slight grooves into the bullets to ensure they loaded properly (I don't them firing with the blade end facing away from what I'm aiming at)Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 05:39 AM.
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2012-08-21, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Okay, huge posts! Let me answer some of the questions?
I personally think that coal would be most useful as a power source on board a ship or something, where you're using big engines to launch cannons or harpoons or something, and where you can store all the coal you would need (or keep the spaces that connect to places where you keep all the coal). For firearms, if you really want to launch physical objects, you might have more luck with an eldrikinetic engine built out of a semi-space, that is powered straight off of puissance from the input. So either a wood-output transformer or actual orichalcum beads or bars that you buy and then insert into the firearm to charge it. For example, a bar of orichalcum with 10 ebbs in it (enough for one shot) is about 100 gp, and can be recharged later. Or a light-input puissance-output transformer that's powered by everburning torches or something. Or a gun that actually shoots magic missiles when you yell loud enough.
Basically, what I'm getting at is that there are a lot of ways to look at almost any problem in the system. The other main thing to mention is that your personal level isn't necessarily the same thing as the technology level of the setting. You might just be able to buy phogiston and orichalcum, since they don't go away when you use them. This all depends on the setting you're in, and is the main reason why this material is as much for DMs as it is for players.
Okay, the airships: if your problem with wood-burning engines is storage space, YGGD 101 provides pretty much as much storage space as you need. Or you could just use actual sails, and use the wind to move, like a boat; once you defy gravity, the hard part is done. A very small force can get a levitated object moving pretty easily. Or you could look at other methods of lift, like dirigibles or vacuum airships; both of those are possible with kaleidomantic filters.
That being said, you raise some excellent points on the numbers needed for Push. I tried to err on the conservative side to prevent abuses, but after spending the last few hours checking math, I'm inclined to agree with you. I'm going to increase the Push from a Ballistic engine to 400 points, and decrease the wood requirement for a simple orthogonal engine to 1 pound of wood every minute. So you'll still need a lot to propel big stuff for long periods of time, but not chopping-down-forests numbers. (Also, it makes automotives more feasible)
Coal is also probably a bad resource to use for a Ballistic Engine, since it's not really defined in-game. I'm going to change the fuel required for a Ballistic Engine to bone instead, and reduce the required fuel to 1 pound of bone per shot. That should make things a little easier to have firearms of various types and sizes. I'll be noting fuel requirements in both weight and volume to make things more user-friendly as well.
The higher level engines seem mostly reasonable as they are, especially since you'll have all sorts of additional options at the 300-level. Like a demiplane made of acorns that you carry in your pocket, for example. But I'm going to reduce the fuel requirement for all of them slightly.
The price of all of the high-level metals is the same as any other gramarie: 10 gp per Baccalaureate principle, 100 gp per Magisterial principle, and 1,000 gp per Doctorate, plus the cost of the materials needed.
Thank you for the suggestions!
Kaleidomantics:
Yes, once you fix it to an object or creature you can move it around however you like, and it rotates in space. Blue filters that are fixed around a frame to make a submarine move with it and turn with it and everything.
Yes, by the text (and by intention), a Violet filter can be used to make touch attacks if it's launched, since it passes through everything that's not living matter.
EDIT: The other big change that I made was to reduce the volume for the actual SO Engine and Ballistic Engine to 1 cubic foot per preparation. You still need huge room for the fancy engines, but those ones are now a little easier to carry around.
Note: If anyone's confused about any changes, the OP always has the latest dates of changes and modifications to the rules text.Last edited by Kellus; 2012-08-21 at 03:02 PM.
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2012-08-21, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Oh my goodness, you can move Kaleidomantics?!
*jaw drop*
Too bad though, Neumann cyclers are impossible unless embedded principles from Abnormal Behaviour don't go away when they are activated. (ie. they can be activated as many times as you have ebbs to power)
EDIT:
holy crap. Tie a violet filter to an arrow, fire the arrow at mach 3. *splat*Last edited by jseah; 2012-08-21 at 03:31 PM.
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2012-08-21, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
1-Get two people
2-Prepare a 10X10 horizontal Violet Filter under person A's feet, relative to them
3-Prepare a 5X5 horizontal Violet Filter over person B's head, relative to it
4-Person A stands 2.5 feet from person B
5-Person A grabs the Violet Filter ledge above himself and pulls himself up
Problem, gravity?
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2012-08-21, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- Somewhere Warm
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
That could be an interesting type of flooring. If one did not mind things going away if you dropped them..
On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.
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2012-08-21, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Where I live.
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Alright, part of me wants to design a von Neumann machine using this system...
You would need to be a Heuristicism specialist, though; you kinda need to shove an AI and all the principles necessary onto nets...
Though this does lead to the issue of... wait, no, you would only need one of each principle involved, as well as an intelligence that was instructed in making copies, and nothing else...
Because it would be necessary to set them to minimum Intelligence, or else they would get dumber with each cycle, and that would be bad.
But, yeah, anyway, it would take me a bit to write it up, but you would only need (off the top of my head) a Transformer, a couple of Heuristic nets, a few Eldrikinetic engines, a couple sub-spaces, and maybe a few Alchemetry principles, to be sure that I would be dealing with the proper materials.
Int 3 is smart enough for me to coordinate self-replication, right?
---
A question I have been meaning to ask; namely, we can connect a Silver input and a Wood output, for example, to convert magical energy into ebbs, right?
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2012-08-21, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
The thing with self replication is that principles can't cast principles (apart from the contingent one).
That's what I meant when I said Neumann Cyclers need embedded principles from Abnormal Behaviour to not go away when activated.
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2012-08-21, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Originally Posted by Amechra
Originally Posted by Amechra
As far as the embedded principles going away after one activation, that certainly wasn't the intent. The idea was that the principle is programmed intot the circuit, and whenever the circumstances are met or triggered, it activates that principle in a preprogrammed way. So you can have things like orichalcum-manufacturing plants and stuff. I'll take a look at Abnormal Behaviours and make sure that's clear.
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2012-08-21, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
All right! The Neumann Cycler is officially possible!
To start things off, here's a Independent Locomotion module. This is intended to be a platform that other modules can be stuck on.
Eg. a scout to go find raw metal sources.
Independent Locomotion
SpoilerPlanck-Becquerel Generator - Eternal Flame x 3
-> Simple Orthogonal Engine
The trick:
The 6 transformers are shaped into equal sections of a sphere and the Simple Orthogonal engine is a hollow iron sphere wrapped around the outside.
The 3 gold inputs occupy marginally larger sections than the Wood output and have a little hollow to themselves on the inside of the engine shell, that hollow contains an Eternal Flame to power it.
A Heuristical circuit pegged to the center connects all of them in the appropriate ways and contains an Exotic Intelligence (or is part of one).
This is the smallest moving independent unit I can manage. It just rolls around, ideal for flat land.
The Jumping Jack is identical except that the shell is made of copper and is a Ballistic engine. The engine moves the internal transformers, which then causes the entire ball to hop. This engine is more designed to climb stairs or rocks that the rolling ball cannot get up.
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2012-08-21, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Thanks for your response! I'm sorry, but I ended up casting another Wall of Text. If you want to get the rest of your content out before worrying about my concerns, I totally understand.
That reminds me. What would be the caster level on said magic missles? 3?
Originally Posted by Kellus
Originally Posted by Kellus
Originally Posted by Kellus
With the Gold transformer, I can get access to nigh infinite energy at a slower rate of accumulation by level 5. With a single gold transformer, I can generate 3 ebbs per round, meaning I could charge it fully in 37 rounds, a little under 4 minutes. Now, 3 ebbs per round might be balanced for level 5, enabling you to deal 3d6 damage or cast a level 3 spell with the right transformer, but with an Orichalcum battery things get ridiculous quickly. The only thing stopping me from buying sunmetal and dropping nukes at this point would be price. Going off some of the other posts in the thread, I could get a cubic foot of gold for 12,000 gp, and then transform it into sunmetal for 4,000. So for about 20,000 gold, which 4 level 5 players could manage if they pooled resources, they could drop a nuke. If you have Hueristic specialization, then you won't even have to worry about killing yourself in the blast, because you can set it to go off in 5 minutes/on impact/whatever else.
Of course, 20,000 gold is a lot for a one-use trick, so there's also a more sustainable way to have fun with Orichalcum using a simple Silver transformer. Assuming level 5 again, I could take 4 minutes to charge the battery. Then, assuming max ranks and 16 CHA, I could take a 20 on my UMD check for 31, enabling me to fire bolts of 31d6 untyped damage 3 times per encounter at level 5! After combat, set out your generator for about 4 minutes and you're good to go again. We'll call it a Death Ray. Setting this up would cost... 12,000 for the gold transformer, 1,200 for a silver transformer (rough estimate, assuming silver is worth 1/10 of gold and disregard differences in density between the two metals), and 4,025 for the Orichalcum, for a total price tag of 17,225 gp. Due to the weight, I'd probably have to have it carried by a wagon, or I suppose I could simply keep all the but the business end of it inside a semi-space (which almost seems a bit unfair).
The price is really the only thing that brings any balance to it, and even then I'm fairly certain that an orthodox enchanted item capable of doing what this does would be a waaaay more expensive. I didn't expect a gold transformer to cost quite as much as it does, but regardless, the major problem is Orichalcum, which is, in my opinion, the best ascended metal by a long shot. Even Sunmetal has only specific uses and requires Arcanodynamic specialization to harness as an energy source. For 4,000 gold it's an absolute steal. It turns that meager 3 ebbs per round into a god-like force to be reckoned with. This must have been why I assumed I wouldn't have access to Orichalcum when I built that gun in my earlier post, because I guessed that if I did, I'd be on my way to bigger and better things. The idea of storing ebbs completely revolutionizes the way the class works. Producing 3 ebbs per round doesn't sound too bad until you introduce a way to store it, at which point it turns into 43,200 ebbs per day, the equivalent 4,800 9th level spells. Something like should either cost more than you could imagine or simply be impossible. I want to feel as though ebbs are difficult to get without a lot of preparation and resources, but Orichalcum breaks this by making actual ebbs per round produced irrelevant.
I can think of a number of general suggestions to tone it down a bit, which I will spoiler in case you'd rather come up with your own idea (I don't want to stifle your creativity).
Spoiler
-Adjust the price of Gamarie to the level of magitechnology in the world. In a Doomsday Magitech world they would sell Doctorate for 1,000 per hour while in Magitech Rennaissance they would sell it for a much higher price, and in Low-Impact world, it would cost a fortune. This would make sense because skilled gramarists might be incredibly rare in a more traditional setting.
-Severely reduce the amount of ebbs a cubic foot of Orichalcum can hold.
-Severely reduce the amount of ascended metal you can create with a single 4-hour preparation.
-Limit the amount of puissance you can have flowing through a Heuristic Circuit by some factor of your autohypnosis check. This would prevent atomic explosions from being as easy to create, but it wouldn't prevent the Death Ray, however, as one could simply max ranks and take a 20 again.
EDIT: Actually scratch that idea completely because you could always just make more circuits.
-Implement some form of diminishing returns to Orichalcum batteries. Perhaps they aren't rechargable, or perhaps they're less efficient at storage the larger they are. Perhaps they lose energy over time when inactive? Or maybe drastically increase the amount of time it takes to charge Orichalum?
-Raise the price of Orichalcum specifically by a large amount, or use a more precious metal as its base (like platinum).
-Make it so that transformers can only absorb/output a certain amount in accordance with their size, meaning that it would probably take more than a cubic foot of silver to get to 31d6.
Also, can any of the ascended metals be found in nature?
Thinking about weight vs. cubic feet got me thinking that if ALCH 364 is overpowered, ALCH 101 might be underpowered. Stone is going to be somewhere between 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, which means about 3.3 cubic feet of stone per preparation. So, you see that stretch of the town wall you'd like to harden? The one that's 100 feet wide, 10 feet thick, and 20 feet tall? Better get crackin', cuz that's gonna take you 6,060 hours to do! And that's probably not even the whole wall! Might wanna take another look at other principles with similar targets, because I'm noticing a trend that weight per cubic foot is usually a lot higher than anticipated.
Originally Posted by Kellus
Worse still I could create an 100 ft. long (or more) spinning blade out of a violet barrier, and propel it with a powerful orthogonal engine (like I mentioned earlier). Ride that baby through town and you've got a giant lawn-mower that mows living things instead of lawns. But how do you even begin to calculate how much damage that would do?
Originally Posted by Kellus
EDIT: The other big change that I made was to reduce the volume for the actual SO Engine and Ballistic Engine to 1 cubic foot per preparation. You still need huge room for the fancy engines, but those ones are now a little easier to carry around.
One last thing: Would darkness created by an input gold transformer be magical or natural darkness for the purposes of darkvision?
EDIT: One other MAJORLY important question. You know that rule with crafting that says you work 8 hours a day and you can't work more than that per day? Do Gramarist's get that too?
I'm sorry to drill you like this. If you want to hold back responding until you finish your final discipline/prestige class stuff, then by all means do so. I'll be paying rapt attention.Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 07:20 PM.
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2012-08-21, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
@LordotheMorning: Actually, your trick can be improved upon quite significantly, with my P/I (phlogiston/ice) Generator! (Disclaimer: Does not actually make pie.)
Put 8 cu ft of phlogiston (heat-radiating) in a semi-space, and make the entrance a 1 in diameter chip or something similar. Place an input ice transformer made of blue ice in a 1x1x1 semi-space with an opening of the same size and shape of the first entrance. Place the two openings together. Get a heuristical circuit to bond the ice input transformer to a silver output transformer, which is also placed in a semi-space with a small opening (placed on a staff or something). Assuming 14th level and arcanodynamic specialization, your UMD check is:
17 (ranks) + 5 (Cha) + 2 (mstwk tool) + 7 (class boost) = 33
Take 20 on the ice and silver, and you get 53 ebbs transformed per round, converted to 53d6 at about a mile range as (effectively) a free action each round. The entire apparatus (assuming you make everything yourself except for the phlogiston and not including the relatively small amounts of raw material) costs 4000 gp.
The P/I generator makes 100 ebbs per round, and considering this array only uses 53 ebbs per round, you can add on even more transformers. And if you add on even more generators, you get even more power per round! Also, it has insignificant weight (about three marbles and a staff), and you only need one staff, no matter how many generators and firing points you add.
This can all be done at a lower level (and higher optimization), but requires you to buy more stuff.Last edited by Morcleon; 2012-08-21 at 07:24 PM.
Avatar of Furude Setsuna, by Telasi.Originally Posted by Akagi
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2012-08-21, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
I believe the simplest version of my troll physics flying device would be a Violet Filter shaped like a box with an open top, with its spatial reference being a steering wheel like object. Sit in the box holding the object and lift/turn it.
I second this notion. A surface being held at a fixed distance from something else that can be moved will break physics as soon as someone starts interacting with both the Filter and the object it's affixed to. You can't even meaningfully calculate the motion since there's no forces involved with some of the components of this system. Without constructing physics for it, you could carry infinite weight on a Filter glued to an object and create bootstrap drives that we can only assume move at infinite speed.
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2012-08-21, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
You are now imagining a dungeon in which the floor is a purple barrier suspended above an enormous pit. In this room, you encounter a fighter who is the best damn disarmer you've ever seen. You drop your weapon and down it goes. Like a rust monster, but infinitely more creative and amusing.
@Morcleon: Yeah, Phlogiston may potentially be another problem-causing ascended metal. My point wasn't to optimize it, but to point out how much power you can get by level five as a way to help Kellus balance. At the very least, this happens at level 14, and at that point things start to get broken anyway. I'm also not sure if Phlogiston stacks addi- *checks numbers of Phlogiston and Ice transformers*... . Phlogiston is a full 980 degrees hotter than room temperature, so it produces 98 ebbs/round?! And that means normal fire does near that too!
EDIT: I think I should have read your entire post before typing my response. I think Kellus is gonna have to swing a nerf bat at this one too.
Also, I think you forgot about the price of blue-ice. Unless you used Alchemetry to make it.Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 07:48 PM.
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2012-08-21, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Wow, you have some really insightful questions. I'm being lazy and putting off finishing Biomachinery, so let me answer your questions first.
That reminds me. What would be the caster level on said magic missles? 3?
If you're changing the fuel source to bone, might you also want to change the material of the ballistics engine from copper to something that makes a more thematic fit? I love the way flesh engine to blood fuel/gold engine to sunlight fuel fit, and it'd be a shame to break that. For that matter, does the thematic of bone fit the mechanic of the ballistic engine?
(interesting stuff about pricing and orichalcum)
I'll think about various scenarios, but I think the most reasonable solution is to be careful as a DM introducing any higher tech level material into lower tech settings.
I've tried to stay away from the economic side of things, mostly because:
1. I don't really care
2. I don't know much about economics
3. Any economic decision is predicated on the specifics of the setting
Especially number 3. I can't make generalisations like "orichalcum is especially valuable in low-tech settings", because maybe someone wants to run a low-tech game set in a post-apocalyptic setting where the fallout of the angel wars has left a lot of orichalcum and phlogiston deposits lying around. Essentially, I trust DMs to understand the material, and control how it enters into their game. Orichalcum is a Doctorate-level effect for a reason.
But let me think a little more about it, I might at the very least put some guidelines in about handling orichalcum in the setting. At least advise DMs not to hand out massive chunks of it.
Also, can any of the ascended metals be found in nature?
Thinking about weight vs. cubic feet got me thinking that if ALCH 364 is overpowered, ALCH 101 might be underpowered. Stone is going to be somewhere between 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, which means about 3.3 cubic feet of stone per preparation. So, you see that stretch of the town wall you'd like to harden? The one that's 100 feet wide, 10 feet thick, and 20 feet tall? Better get crackin', cuz that's gonna take you 6,060 hours to do! And that's probably not even the whole wall! Might wanna take another look at other principles with similar targets, because I'm noticing a trend that weight per cubic foot is usually a lot higher than anticipated.
If that's the case, then I'm gonna need some rules for damage/knock-back when you get crushed/pushed by one of these babies, because to me, the #1 coolest thing to do with this is shoot them at people. I'd want to rig up a 20 ft. chain, fix a barrier to it, and then swing at in a circle to shunt people around. Hell, you could literally make a giant flyswatter and swing it through buildings to splat the people inside! It'd probably be some sort of modified bullrush, using a function of the weight of the spatial reference to which the barrier is linked, but leverage might also be a factor. You probably know more about physics than I do. Or perhaps there's already something in the established rules you could use to calculate it?
That being said, see my response to General Patton below.
One last thing: Would darkness created by an input gold transformer be magical or natural darkness for the purposes of darkvision?
@Morcleon–
Haha, I'm not sure I'd rely too much on blue ice. I get that it's pretty cool, but the intent was that when an effect specifies "ice" it means actual frozen water.
The main problem with a phlogiston/ice transformer is that phlogiston has a temperature of 1,000 degrees Centigrade around it, and even with alchemetric modification, there's only so much heat you can channel away with arcanodynamics. If you can set something up to get around that, it's a fantastic source of energy!
Originally Posted by General Patton
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2012-08-21, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Blue ice is frozen water. It just happens to be super awesome frozen water from the deepest areas of the oldest glaciers.
As for the heat...
The material is cold and feels identical to regular ice upon casual observation, blue ice only melts under intense and direct application of heat, similar to iron.Avatar of Furude Setsuna, by Telasi.Originally Posted by Akagi
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2012-08-21, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Int 1 is sufficient for reproduction. Animals manage that by themselves.
Also, why not use semi-spaces linked to a demi-plane, such as the one my generator generator would be on, to act as a power source for the bots instead of generating the power on them.
Same goes with AI, possibly even using the same link. You know you want the self replicating machines to be legion.
Here is an idea with a nice table.
{table]2 above setting|100,000 gp/hour
1 above setting|10,000 gp/hour
setting level|1,000 gp/hour
1 below setting|100 gp/hour
2 below setting|10 gp/hour[/table]
This way, in a low magitek setting, high level magitek is really damn pricey, while low grade magitek is in the general magic item territory.
As you add magitek to the setting, it gets cheaper, but highest grade magitech never goes below 1000 gp per hour.
A platinum base would result in a 120,000 gp price tag per cubic foot, plus gramarist expenses. In a high magitek setting, that's 124,000 gp for 100 charges, or 1240 gp per charge. Which is a fair bit more reasonable, as you'd need almost 40kgp for the 31d6 deathray. And then it only stores a single shot. With the 1/2 wealth on 1 item thing enforced, a character would need to be at least level 12 to start with such a battery.
In low magitek, it'd be 520,000 gp, or 5200 gp per charge. 161200 for a single 31d6 deathray shot capacity. Said character would need to be level 17.
At those prices at those levels, it is quite reasonable, considering what else is available.
Edit: Also, Alch 101 (heat capacity) can result in immunity to fire and cold damage with a result of 0. Said result can also apply a 1/0 multiplier to fire damage on an iron golem, meaning any fire damage fully heals them. Then use Alch 364 and make it a phlogiston golem. It now fully heals, always.Last edited by jojolagger; 2012-08-21 at 08:00 PM.
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2012-08-21, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm not personally responsible for every stupid thing that WotC has written in random splatbooks. It's not ice just because it has 'ice' in the name, any more than Baatorian green steel is the same thing as normal steel. Or the colour green for that matter.
That being said, if your DM thinks it's reasonable, go nuts! I'm not going to tell you how to play your game!
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2012-08-21, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
The thing about this, though, is that a Gramarist can build a house in thirty minutes by himself with Spectroconstruction. If he can build it that fast, why should it take him weeks or months to strengthen it? I'd say this principle has one of the least abuseable uses in the first place because you can only use it to increase a given attribute once, so you have little to fear from improving it by. There's also the notion that various other principles, such as ARCD 101 and HEUR 101, are not only incredibly useful, but essential for most of the things you'd want to do with the class.
I also edited in this question on my earlier post, but I must have been too late to be seen: You know that rule with crafting that says you work 8 hours a day and you can't work more than that per day? Do Gramarists get that too?
@jojolagger: Those platinum prices are pretty steep. Maybe a little too steep. Although at the same time, I'd actually rather it be too hard than too easy so that my DM doesn't just think I'm trying to be cheesy.
Funny thing about that, actually. My DM homebrewed in something he calls X-Spheres, which are little crystal artifacts that are remnants of an ancient civilization that was very adept at manipulating "mana" (which is functionally identical to the idea of puissance). X-Spheres are a major part of the plot, and are essentially really, really good Orichalcum batteries. The party has managed to collect a few already, so if I do get to take levels of this class, I'm gonna be having a lot of cheese for dinner. Most of the ones we've found have been full, but we have no way to charge them. I have a glove that allows me to draw puissance from the battery to cast a spell instead of having it count for my spells for day. Now, if I can take this class, I can learn to charge them... I showed him this thread and joked that was practically already using these rules without realizing it. I think the complexity of some of the rules confused him a bit, but I think he'll come around. Especially since it's such an absolutely perfect fit for his setting.Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 08:29 PM.
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2012-08-21, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
That's an interesting distinction. Heuristicism, and arcanodynamics (to a lesser degree) are what I think of as 'systemic' disciplines, whose main use is to work inside of a machine as a whole. Alchemetrics is much more of a standalone field, and is mostly useful for providing the materials to do crazy stuff with (especially the highest level principle). Spectroconstruction is specifically nothing that mundane labour can't solve in its own right. The lyre of building described digging ditches, mines, building stuff, and so on. Magically enhancing the durability or heat capacity of materials isn't something that a normal work crew would be able to do. Even though people in the thread haven't yet figured out crazy stuff to do with ALCH 101 on par with the others, I'm confident that there are quite a few abusable things to do with it (and in fact it's practically required for some of the stuff like ice transformers). It's also interesting because it's very useful in its own right in a more standard combat scenario, since you can increase the durability or hardness of stuff.
Now that you mention it, though, I'd completely forgotten about that limit of a single buff to a material. I'd intended to remove that clause at one point, and had even been considering allowing a single preparation to set each of the qualities to the point on the slider that you like. I'm sorry for the error, stuff sneaks through from draft to draft.
I also edited in this question on my earlier post, but I must have been too late to be seen: You know that rule with crafting that says you work 8 hours a day and you can't work more than that per day? Do Gramarists get that too?
@jojolagger: Those platinum prices are pretty steep. Maybe a little too steep. Although at the same time, I'd actually rather it be too hard than too easy so that my DM doesn't just think I'm trying to be cheesy.
Funny thing about that, actually. My DM homebrewed in something he calls X-Spheres, which are little crystal artifacts that are remnants of an ancient civilization that was very adept at manipulating "mana" (which is functionally identical to the idea of puissance). X-Spheres are a major part of the plot, and are essentially really, really good Orichalcum batteries. The party has managed to collect a few already, so if I do get to take levels of this class, I'm gonna be having a lot of cheese for dinner. Most of the ones we've found have been full, but we have no way to charge them. I have a glove that allows me to draw puissance from the battery to cast a spell instead of having it count for my spells for day. Now, if I can take this class, I can learn to charge them... I showed him this thread and joked that was practically already using these rules without realizing it. I think the complexity of some of the rules confused him a bit, but I think he'll come around. Especially since it's such an absolutely perfect fit for his setting.
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2012-08-21, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Hmmm...
Will the Alchemetry specialist PrC include some feature that will let you apply ALCH 101 more than once to an object, just not the same enhancement twice? Because, as it is, I cry a little when I see that you can't, you know, make a really hard, difficult-to-break substance out of, say, tin.
Plus, I totally want to increase the Melting point of Ice and the Heat Capacity of said Ice.
It isn't that hard to hit DC 100 Diplomacy checks, which are what you would need to get a piece of ice with precisely a 100 degree melting point and a heat capacity of 1/10th.
Let's see... specializing in Alchemetry gives you a good +43 modifier, with full ranks and 20 levels in the class...
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) is a +3, you obviously want to play a Half-Elf with that synergy-boosting feat (+9 from all the synergies), Masterwork Tools, a casting of Guidance of the Avatar (+20 to a skill check)...
That's a +77 modifier. We just need another +4 or more to make ice that will not melt if you use it as a box to hold Phlogiston.
Let's say 2 or more assistants Aiding Another?
Then we get 998 Ebbs a minute. Not bad... Especially since this is pretty cheap, and can be sold for a pretty penny, I would think...
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2012-08-21, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
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2012-08-21, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
I still that's that's way too strong. It can be powerful, but that many ebbs is just excessive. I thought it was crazy when I thought it made 98 ebbs, and now that I realize I did the math wrong... well. That outstrips every other power source by a huge margin. You don't even need Phlogiston to do it. Just light a fire.
I had another idea as to the price of ascended metals- the skill check. One could charge a lot of money for something that requires the services of someone capable of getting a skill up that high. The price could potentially include the DC of the skill check required as a factor.
I do hope the Alchemetry specialist is able to use ALCH 101 in some sort of superior manner. I had this image in my head about building small 10-by-10 forts on the fly, reinforcing them, and then getting the whole party inside to have the best chokepoint defense ever. A Gramarist would be a wonderful class to defend a position with.Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 09:34 PM.
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2012-08-21, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Nope! Phlogiston radiates a massive amount of heat, but 1,000 degrees Centigrade is about the temperature of a flame, not of the ambient temperature in an area. Depending on the area and whatnot, most flames wouldn't raise the ambient temperature by much more than 10-50 degrees, as we know from real life. Recall that an actual fire doesn't deal more than 1 or 2 d6 fire damage (being caught on fire only deals 1d6 damage per round). If it's not clear how to interpret it, there's usually another way to go about it. A normal flame would generate a few ebbs, and then puff out. Phlogiston specifically warms an area to incredible flash point temperatures because it's magic.
I do hope the Alchemetry specialist is able to use ALCH 101 in some sort of superior manner. I had this image in my head about building small 10-by-10 forts on the fly, reinforcing them, and then getting the whole party inside to have the best chokepoint defense ever. A Gramarist would be a wonderful class to defend a position with.
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2012-08-21, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Sweetness!
Though I realized after posting that I can make ice that could carry Phlogiston as a box very easily.
You just need to raise the melting point by 20+ degrees, and then set the bubble up to include the ice.
Done and done; if you can buy the services of a couple of 14th level Grammarists, you could pull this off at level 1; as it is, if you are working alone, you can set up your first 998 ER (Ebb (per) Round) generator at 14th level, in less than a day.
This begs the question: is there any way to boost the temperature of Phlogiston? I kinda want to find some really high ER generators, and I think a boosted temperature Phlogiston would be quite the boost.
Let's see... you would need 100 cubic feet of Sunmetal to match a P/I generator with an S/L generator. That being said...
Unlike a P/I generator, you wouldn't be able to drop an S/L generator of similar rate into a tub of Quicksilver, which is then dropped into a Fast Time sub-space, for a good old 3992 ER. Sure, it takes a pair of 14th level specialists to pull off, but you needed one of them anyway (if you were to do this solo, anyway.)
Seriously, when you adjust for size, a P/I generator is the most efficient, full stop. The next best option, a S/L generator, takes up 50.5 times as much space, and no other generator comes close, except for maybe a Silver generator filled with a nice Arcane Fusion spell, though that doesn't feel legal for some reason... (Arcane Fusion is a 7th level spell that in effect casts 11 spell levels, iirc; it would generate an effective 4 ER, if you take looping into account, which barely seems worth it...)
You know, if you want to be damn sure that all Vampires are gone, you can just connect a P/I generator to a Gold output; you get 9945 feet of Daylight equivalent, at the very least, which is constant.
On a side note, I wonder...
Yep, we can chill an area below absolute Zero by creating a P/I generator attached to a Mercury output.
That... is something that you might want to disallow...
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2012-08-21, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Oh. Well that's better because I was about to say "EDIT: As a matter of fact, all you really have to do is build a larger Ice transformer, hold it over a fire, and enjoy your profit of 1000+ ebbs that you make before the ice totally melts," but you nipped that one in the bud. All the same Phlogiston is still better than Sunmetal, and you can't even capture energy from Sunmetal unless you specialize in Arcanodynamics (which means you have to buy your Sunmetal).
Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-21 at 09:40 PM.
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2012-08-21, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)
Not sure where you're getting a thousand ebbs a round from; an ice transformer generates 1 ebb for every 10 degrees, so your icebox only generates 98 ebbs per round.
Heh. Only.
This begs the question: is there any way to boost the temperature of Phlogiston? I kinda want to find some really high ER generators, and I think a boosted temperature Phlogiston would be quite the boost.
Yep, we can chill an area below absolute Zero by creating a P/I generator attached to a Mercury output.
That... is something that you might want to disallow...