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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Would it be possible to use Kaleidomantics, Heuristicism and Yggdratecture to make a dagger with a button that activates/deactivates a Black Filter surrounding the user and their victim? Have the Filter around a small object that is pulled out from a semi-space or demiplane?

    Also, can't you use a bunch of Ablative Imachination effects positioned relative to yourself to enter permanent stealth mode? Better yet, stash this inside of a second dagger to go with the other one and you've got the ultimate two-weapon fighting, sneak attacking, rogue/assassin weapons.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by General Patton View Post
    Would it be possible to use Kaleidomantics, Heuristicism and Yggdratecture to make a dagger with a button that activates/deactivates a Black Filter surrounding the user and their victim? Have the Filter around a small object that is pulled out from a semi-space or demiplane?

    Also, can't you use a bunch of Ablative Imachination effects positioned relative to yourself to enter permanent stealth mode? Better yet, stash this inside of a second dagger to go with the other one and you've got the ultimate two-weapon fighting, sneak attacking, rogue/assassin weapons.
    Yes, to both. Filters can be fixed relative to objects, so storing the anchor in a semi-space or demiplane is an easy way to 'turn off' the filter when you don't want it. Although remember that you would have to build some sort of structure out of the filters to block any kind of sensing, such as a cube made of six black filters that stay in relative position to each other.

    And yes, the whole point of ablative illusions is to remove the sensory output of things that are there. Just watch out for people that have abilities that penetrate illusions or extra senses that aren't accounted for in the illusion!
    Last edited by Kellus; 2012-08-22 at 11:24 PM. Reason: g/p

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    I've been thinking about a number of concepts that might make this class clash with the overall mechanics of DND. I really, really, want to see this class safe for use without totally transforming the world and the game in which it is played, but there are two issues I can think of that would prevent that.

    The first issue is a matter of exclusive benefits. There is very little that the Gramarist does that other classes cannot benefit just as much from. For example, I could spend 15 class levels to make a Violet barrier sword, or I could buy it from a passing Gramarist and be a Fighter instead. A fighter would make even better use of it than Gramarist himself. And even if there isn't that kind of availability for hiring Gramarists, I can encourage someone else to play a Gramarist in my party. All I really have to do is drop a few ranks into Knowledge (Engineering), and I could design a schematic and hire someone else to make it, all without taking a single class level. And really, who's going to buy a Brilliant Energy weapon when they can get a violet barrier for 1,000 gold? Of course, anything requiring more than a couple of hours would get difficult to afford, but I think it's a bit of an issue that a Gramarist's tech is just as useful to him as it is to anybody else. It's all well and good that I can make an awesome canon that shoots laser-discs at you, but it kind miffs me to know that anyone else can pick it up and use it just as well. I cannot use a Telflammar Shadowlord's Shadow Pounce ability, a Fighter's bonus feats, nor can I have a Wizard cast Mage Armor and other personal range spells on me, but all of my class features as a Gramarist can be used by them.

    What if Gramarie relied on the supervision of a Gramarist in order to reach it's full potential? What about trouble-shooting, maintenance, and jury-rigging? What if Gramarie unsupervised were vulnerable to things like dispel magic? Therefore, without the presence of a dedicated gramarist, any magitech could have it's usefulness lessened.


    The other issue is the notion of time as a limiting resource. I know the psychology DMs tend to operate by, and I can almost guarantee you that a character whose ability to create extremely powerful, potentially gamebreaking, devices is limited by time is going to find himself constantly struggling against time constraints, and inadvertently provoke a lot of rail-roading. That evil lich you were told to go defeat, who in another game might be content to fight in his lair, might simply start laying waste to towns if you don't get to him within an arbitrary amount of time.

    If you need time to be immensely powerful, then time becomes the one thing the DM can't give you, which means you'll never have time for any side-questing or sandboxing unless the DM decides to ramp up the CR by a ridiculous amount or decides that he doesn't mind if you aren't challenged. Certain other characters can make good use of their time, such as those with crafting feats, but their true limiting factor has always been level. Here however, time becomes so crucial that it may even replace experience as the player's resource. I think you could make a good argument that a level 5 Gramarist with two weeks of prep-time could defeat a level 10 Gramarist with two days of prep-time. I really don't even know how I would fix this one. Any ideas?
    Last edited by LordotheMorning; 2012-08-23 at 05:49 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordotheMorning View Post
    I've been thinking about a number of concepts that might make this class clash with the overall mechanics of DND. I really, really, want to see this class safe for use without totally transforming the world and the game in which it is played, but there are two issues I can think of that would prevent that.
    <...> Of course, anything requiring more than a couple of hours would get difficult to afford, but I think it's a bit of an issue that a Gramarist's tech is just as useful to him as it is to anybody else. It's all well and good that I can make an awesome canon that shoots laser-discs at you, but it kind miffs me to know that anyone else can pick it up and use it just as well.
    <...> Here however, time becomes so crucial that it may even replace experience as the player's resource.
    You do realize this IS the entire purpose of this homebrew?

    The very essence of magitech is totally contrary to standard fantasy magic.
    Magic, as commonly conceived, is a personal power that only special people can use.
    Magitech, being a technology, is an impersonal power that *anyone* can use.
    It defeats the entire purpose to restrict magitech to the gramarists.

    Secondly, by its very nature of impersonality, magitech will transform the entire setting. When one can make permanent effects that anyone can benefit from, one is only restricted by time. Then obviously, time becomes an important resource.

    EDIT:
    This also applies to and embodies the entire division of mystical magic and magitech in general.
    One CANNOT have mystical magic in a world where magic operates outside of a character and impersonally (ie. doesn't matter who's doing what). If magic is independent of people and has permanent effects, magitech is what results.

    EDIT2:
    Likewise, aspiring wizards looking to leave a permanent mark on the setting or build a Tippyverse-lite, look to ways to impersonalize their magic and render it available to the common people.

    The longbow was strictly superior to an early gun. But anyone could pick up a gun and use it, while the longbow archer took forever to train; so the gun won eventually.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-08-23 at 07:23 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    The first one, however, is still a bit of a problem if this isn't to be an NPC class. It should offer an advantage over, say, taking Leadership and just having your personal Gramarist at home equipping you whenever you need it.

    The prestige classes seem to help, there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    That's why, if I were to play with this, I would totally have it all be Gestalt, where everyone has to Gestalt with the Grammarist class.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    That's why, if I were to play with this, I would totally have it all be Gestalt, where everyone has to Gestalt with the Grammarist class.
    Funny you should say that, we're setting up one or two gestalt Gramarist games right now. It should be near the top of the player recruitment forum.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Don't have the time; I'm about to head off to college, so my free time will be severely proscribed.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Don't have the time; I'm about to head off to college, so my free time will be severely proscribed.
    Ah, that's too bad. This is an excellent class and I can't wait to test it out.
    Last edited by Omnicrat; 2012-08-23 at 07:06 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    The classes I'm taking will be excellent, too.

    I'm kinda waiting for the Natural Philosophy Principles to be finished, so I can update my pantheon.

    The Gods of Science each have perfect, complete access to a single Discipline; they automatically succeed on all key skill checks (treat this as a roll of 250 in any skill check), and can use their Principles through their Spectroconstruction ability (referred to as Eternity in an Eyeblink).

    72,000 Preparations in 30 minutes? Fear the science!

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Two questions.

    1) Does a Gramarists eldrich blast stack with the other side of a gestalt that also has an eldrich blast, such as warlock?

    2) Can Carmot foil be used as a means of preservation, or is there a certain required volume/mass?

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Two questions.

    1) Does a Gramarists eldrich blast stack with the other side of a gestalt that also has an eldrich blast, such as warlock?

    2) Can Carmot foil be used as a means of preservation, or is there a certain required volume/mass?
    1. Like any gestalt feature, whenever you receive the same ability on either side of a progression you only count the best progression.

    2. By the rules, no. Any amount of carmot that an object touches will freeze the decay or rusting process in it. Similarly, it doesn't matter how much you drink, as long as you drink some carmot each day, you won't age. This has led to the distribution of Vitamin C, an immortality supplement popular on the Outer Planes.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Okay! Biollurgy is ready for you to make some monstrosities with! Or really creepy architecture. Whatever, really.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    I'm in love. With a piece of text.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Did you just give me a way to make custom creatures with any fluff I want and a wide variety of abilities? If you're not careful, people might end up stalking you. Or worshipping you. Or both.
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    Fatigue makes me wax philosophic and/or babble. If I've posted something strange and tangential, that is probably the cause. This entry would be an example.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    You broke my brain. In a good way.

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    I just realized: this class, contrary to the thread title, cannot actually blind people.
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    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I just realized: this class, contrary to the thread title, cannot actually blind people.
    Black kaleidomantic filter centered on your target and focused inward?
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Thanks for Biollurgy; it will be... useful.

    I assume your effective Xenoalchemist level is equal to your Grammarist level for the purpose of how powerful the "grafts" are?

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    When I first see this my thought was something like "Amazing! Awesome! What I can with this.."

    Then when I see the designs people come up with I thought "Kellus, I think you has broken the Outer Gates"

    After seeing Biollurgy: "And you did it TWICE!"

    Very nice work, Kellus. Biollurgy is just... wow. Though right now my brain is still struggling and can't keep up with the thread and the new content yet. And I'm eagerly waiting for the Alchemetry specialist PrC.
    Last edited by Salbazier; 2012-08-24 at 08:45 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Also, can Biollurgists modify someone else's body parts?

    I want to be able to give the party Fighter an arm made of flesh and steel, damn it!

    Additionally, can you place Level 0 Grafts on people with the higher level principles? So you could, for example, give these hideous masses of flesh and gristle your face, for example.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    1. Like any gestalt feature, whenever you receive the same ability on either side of a progression you only count the best progression.

    2. By the rules, no. Any amount of carmot that an object touches will freeze the decay or rusting process in it. Similarly, it doesn't matter how much you drink, as long as you drink some carmot each day, you won't age. This has led to the distribution of Vitamin C, an immortality supplement popular on the Outer Planes.
    1) That's what I assumed, but people were debating it in the campaign thread.

    2) Does one have to drink it? Because I was planing on making Carmot tablets for sale to nobles.

    On a new note, 3) Did you ever address the person pointing out that your volume/weight restrictions being kinda heavy (well, literally light, but you get my meaning) on the weight side of things?

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I'm in love. With a piece of text.
    Haha, awesome! Glad you like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by radmelon
    Did you just give me a way to make custom creatures with any fluff I want and a wide variety of abilities? If you're not careful, people might end up stalking you. Or worshipping you. Or both.
    Yeah, basically. The beautiful part of it is that it's the xenoalchemy rules doing the heavy lifting for the monster abilities, since it's already a nice tiered list of level-appropriate monster speeds, senses, natural weapons, and abilities to hand out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman
    You broke my brain. In a good way.
    Sorry, I'll clean that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop
    I just realized: this class, contrary to the thread title, cannot actually blind people.
    Imachination can make someone think they're blinded!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra
    I assume your effective Xenoalchemist level is equal to your Grammarist level for the purpose of how powerful the "grafts" are?
    Ooo, good point. I think actually I'm going to say that the Hit Dice of the chassis determines the strength of the grafts. That means that big monsters are inherently more powerful, and also that as they advance their grafts grow stronger as well. And for PC use as you level up your grafts become more powerful along with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salbazier
    When I first see this my thought was something like "Amazing! Awesome! What I can with this.."

    Then when I see the designs people come up with I thought "Kellus, I think you has broken the Outer Gates"

    After seeing Biollurgy: "And you did it TWICE!"

    Very nice work, Kellus. Biollurgy is just... wow. Though right now my brain is still struggling and can't keep up with the thread and the new content yet. And I'm eagerly waiting for the Alchemetry specialist PrC.
    Thanks! I'll try to get the arcanitect and the graughtsman done today.

    EDIT: Sorry, you said alchemetry. I'll move the contractor in front of the arcanitect on the queue, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra
    Also, can Biollurgists modify someone else's body parts?
    Hrm... Interesting. What they can do is actually transform part of a living creature into biostructure, giving it object and metal-like characteristics. So you can turn the fighter's arm into biostructure for the benefits of the fast healing and hardness and other characteristics that the arm would receive. And you could also attach other masses of biostructure onto the arm. But you can't actually grow grafts on something already alive, that's the domain of actual xenoalchemy. This discipline is about forging entirely new monsters and lifeforms.

    Additionally, can you place Level 0 Grafts on people with the higher level principles? So you could, for example, give these hideous masses of flesh and gristle your face, for example.
    Oh, good call. A chassis can have unlimited one free 0-level graft, and they're partially mutated in offspring, so that children look similar but slightly different to their parents. Thank you for reminding me, I'll update that!

    For those interested, I'm also making one other small change; biostructure, like any building material, should have its hit points measured by inch of thickness for when people actually try to break through it. It now has one Hit Die per inch of thickness at any given point. This still changes when you turn it into a chassis, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat
    1) That's what I assumed, but people were debating it in the campaign thread.
    I'm sorry, I'm not an expert on gestalt, but I believe that the relevant passage is:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.


    2) Does one have to drink it? Because I was planing on making Carmot tablets for sale to nobles.
    No, any way you consume it is valid. But have you ever tried eating solid copper?

    On a new note, 3) Did you ever address the person pointing out that your volume/weight restrictions being kinda heavy (well, literally light, but you get my meaning) on the weight side of things?
    Nope, stuff is heavy. There's a whole discipline about creating extradimensional spaces that you can carry around with you!
    Last edited by Kellus; 2012-08-24 at 11:43 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    Nope, stuff is heavy. There's a whole discipline about creating extradimensional spaces that you can carry around with you!
    Ah, I'm sorry. I meant with regard to ALCH 101, not the bulk of objects Gramarie creates.

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Is ALCH 286 supposed to not be able to produce platinum?

    Also, is the iron not supposed under the table?

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Is ALCH 286 supposed to not be able to produce platinum?
    No, it doesn't. It specifically lists the metals that are valid choices, and ALCH 364 says the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me!
    In addition to the normal planetary metals, this principle can target an 8th metal: platinum. Platinum is an odd case, and while it can be ascended with this principle, it is not a valid choice for ALCH 286. For all other purposes, it is treated as a planetary metal.
    Also, is the iron not supposed under the table?
    Iron is generally assumed to be a default material due to its ubiquity in the game to begin with. I don't want to introduce any unusual rules for it, since nearly everything metal in the game is already made out of iron or an alloy of it.

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    You know that one cubic foot of platinum costs 665000 gp, right? I know it was really easy to get before, but now it seems much too prohibitive.

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    For BIOY 381 I have a question on the reproduction part. It states that the golems can reproduce by asexual budding but is there any limit on that? Could I make the creatures reproduce every .000001 seconds and just flood the plane with reproducing golems?

    Also I couldn't find this on the graft page you linked but can you affix the same graft to a creature? In particular the suicide organ.

    Still love the class
    Last edited by Silva Stormrage; 2012-08-24 at 03:58 PM.
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    For BIOY 381 I have a question on the reproduction part. It states that the golems can reproduce by asexual budding but is there any limit on that? Could I make the creatures bud every .000001 seconds and just flood the plane with reproducing golems?

    Also I couldn't find this on the graft page you linked but can you affix the same graft to a creature? In particular the suicide organ.

    Still love the class
    Good questions!

    I guess that's a good call on the reproduction guidelines. It's incredibly open-ended so that people can make pretty much any kind of creature that they like, but I understand there's also room for abuse. I think what I'll do is put in a minimum gestation period based on size category; 1 month, with an additional four months for every size category above Tiny. That gives us mice with 1 month gestation, humans with 9 month gestation, and elephants with 17 month gestation. Not perfect (elephants are 22 and mice are about 20 days) but close enough to satisfy me.

    The other main point I'll put in is that the creature can't reproduce until reaching adulthood.

    As for the doubling up on grafts, you are allowed to have multiple of the same graft if they occupy separate body slots normally, such as claws in more places than normal. Since these growth slots can count as any body slot, you can double up whatever you like. Nothing particularly unbalancing about having exceptionally powerful death throes, especially from a 4th level graft.

    Glad you like it!

    You know that one cubic foot of platinum costs 665000 gp, right?
    Yes. It's expensive stuff. You can always transmute a smaller amount if you want. But at normal xenoalchemy rates, at Doctorate-level you can make about enough for that in 6 months to a year. As some people pointed out to me, orichalcum is pretty much the biggest gamebreaker in the entire system.
    Last edited by Kellus; 2012-08-24 at 04:11 PM. Reason: g/p

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    Silva Stormrage's Avatar

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    Good questions!

    I guess that's a good call on the reproduction guidelines. It's incredibly open-ended so that people can make pretty much any kind of creature that they like, but I understand there's also room for abuse. I think what I'll do is put in a minimum gestation period based on size category; 1 month, with an additional four months for every size category above Tiny. That gives us mice with 1 month gestation, humans with 9 month gestation, and elephants with 17 month gestation. Not perfect (elephants are 22 and mice are about 20 days) but close enough to satisfy me.

    The other main point I'll put in is that the creature can't reproduce until reaching adulthood.

    As for the doubling up on grafts, you are allowed to have multiple of the same graft if they occupy separate body slots normally, such as claws in more places than normal. Since these growth slots can count as any body slot, you can double up whatever you like. Nothing particularly unbalancing about having exceptionally powerful death throes, especially from a 4th level graft.

    Glad you like it!



    Yes. It's expensive stuff. You can always transmute a smaller amount if you want. But at normal xenoalchemy rates, at Doctorate-level you can make about enough for that in 6 months to a year. As some people pointed out to me, orichalcum is pretty much the biggest gamebreaker in the entire system.
    Awesome, that seems like a good compromise and also another question. Are biollurgical chassis blocked by violet filters? It says that it blocks living and undead but constructs are let through... Since biollurgical chassis are a mix of both... it is somewhat hard to tell

    And yes orichalcum is really really broken IMO as it almost completely negates the purpose for other generators.
    Last edited by Silva Stormrage; 2012-08-24 at 04:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    ...Silva, you are a scary person.
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