She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[Amechra]

Quick question which was passed over in the fervor:

If I have a cubic foot of Silver, can it be both a Transformer and an Engine? Or would I have to have a separate cubic foot for each preparation.

Also, part of me wants to make Biollurgical Zerg; heck, it can already make Creep...

Also, how many cubic feet of iron do you think full plate is? We can't use the weight given in the table, since that is a measure of bulk, and if we go by that, it is literally only 1/9th of a cubic foot of Iron.

I want to make Iron Man armor, damn it!

Hmm... I just thought of something kinda cool; basically, you open up two semi-spaces, both 4'x4'x4', and line them up next to each-other so that it forms a 4'x8' opening; have them portal into each-other at an edge.

Then do the same elsewhere; connect each individual portal to a single portal on the other side.

There you go, if you are making a house where the hallways are 4'x8', you can extend your hallways by 8' increments; actually, use that to make nicely paneled hallways that should not fit in your studio apartment.

Hell, I just thought of something... You know, you could totally set up a semi-space inside of a portable hole, and use it to basically connect a bunch of portable holes together into a house.

The rooms might be a little small, but if you set up the normal opening as a window...

Dinner in Sharn, anyone? I mailed a Hole there yesterday. (there isn't a :Classy: smiley. WHY IS THERE NO CLASSY SMILEY)

By the way, I think that little quirk is completely fine; at least it leads to awesome architecture.

[Silva Stormrage]

Sorry I was using the wrong example then, I was just using quicksilver because I was planning a fort and thats what it called for. But what happens if you have a 40ft by 40ft by 40ft room of cursed lead and then built a mini room inside that room with solid stone. Could you cast inside that stone room? Also assuming 20th level so that the grammarie is an (Ex) effect what would happen if you had a subspace entrance inside the cursed lead room. Would the interior of the subspace be affected by the antimagic?

[Arkhaic]

Still on the subject of Yggdracatecture, what if the semi-space is weightless? Can you make a semi-space that takes up less space in less time? (2x2x1 in half an hour, 2x1x1 in 15 minutes, 1^3 in 7.5 minutes.)

[Kellus]

Sorry I was using the wrong example then, I was just using quicksilver because I was planning a fort and thats what it called for. But what happens if you have a 40ft by 40ft by 40ft room of cursed lead and then built a mini room inside that room with solid stone. Could you cast inside that stone room? Also assuming 20th level so that the grammarie is an (Ex) effect what would happen if you had a subspace entrance inside the cursed lead room. Would the interior of the subspace be affected by the antimagic?

Ohhhh I see what you were saying. Yes, anything enclosed by the cursed lead is filled with the area of antimagic. The field permeates anything within the enclosure.

Assuming that you had 20th level, the actual portal would not disappear. I would say an open portal means that the interior semi-space is affected by the antimagic field, since YGGD 101 specifically states that semi-space interiors are affected by area effects. So you could keep the portal open in the animagic field at 20th level, but you couldn't cast a spell inside of it. If this seems kind of weird, it's because the rules were never meant to include extraordinary extradimensional spaces.

Quick question which was passed over in the fervor:

If I have a cubic foot of Silver, can it be both a Transformer and an Engine? Or would I have to have a separate cubic foot for each preparation.

False! I answered that question in post #223!

No, material can be used for multiple simultaneous purposes like that.

Also, how many cubic feet of iron do you think full plate is? We can't use the weight given in the table, since that is a measure of bulk, and if we go by that, it is literally only 1/9th of a cubic foot of Iron.

Interesting question! The average Body Surface Area of a human is 1.73 m^2. That works out to 18.62 square feet. Assuming full plate is about on average... 1/4" thick? That's 0.021 feet thick, which means a total volume for the armor of about 0.39 cubic feet.

God, I wish the D&D rules were metric.

Haha, that's some awesome architecture, though. Once you get the ability to connect semi-spaces, you can really build some crazy stuff.

[General Patton]

Eeeeeeeheehee

So, all it would take is a source of puissance and materials and then an Abnormal Behaviour setup for Intro to Heuristicism, Exotic Intelligence, Intro to Biollurgy, Animate Construction, Artificial Reckoning and Erratic Mutations in order to have our expanding bubble of Mindsight/Telepathy linked to and controlling a growing population of Telepathically linked sensory organs on legs. If you include an Abnormal Behaviour for Nonlinear Waves to make Gold Input Transformers and give all of your critters the Nimbus of Light and Devil Eye Grafts, then intruders are running blind while you've got infinite puissance and can do a zergling rush light-nuke. Btw, can we get the ability to shut off Input Transformers as a logical decision?

[Kellus]

Btw, can we get the ability to shut off Input Transformers as a logical decision?

I've actually thought about that question a lot ever since someone first asked on page... 2? And I think the answer is yes. You could just do it anyway with roundabout methods like magnetically pulling them apart or something, and that's too much hassle to be worth it. I don't think it would really have ludicrous consequences, so I'm going to add it in there.

Also, that's like the most terrifying scenario for a planar invasion by someone's science experiment run amok ever.

[Milo v3]

I've just made a Class which uses these Principles and the Grafts. Here is a link. Though I think I may have gone a little overboard...

[Kellus]

Still on the subject of Yggdracatecture, what if the semi-space is weightless?

A semi-space is weightless in the sense that it doesn't weigh anything in the Plane that it's tethered to. But if you have, say, a broom which is half in the space and half sticking out, holding that broom-end feels like holding half a broom. The part on the home Plane still has weight, and something needs to hold it up.

Can you make a semi-space that takes up less space in less time? (2x2x1 in half an hour, 2x1x1 in 15 minutes, 1^3 in 7.5 minutes.)

No, but you can make semi-spaces that take up less space in the same amount of time if you like!

I've just made a Class which uses these Principles and the Grafts. Here is a link. Though I think I may have gone a little overboard...

I'd be happy to take a look at it, I'll post my thoughts in your thread.

[General Patton]

Also, that's like the most terrifying scenario for a planar invasion by someone's science experiment run amok ever.

Now that my AI can engulf everything in the light-eating bubbles and turn off only the ones necessary for the max number of light rays on a single target, yes, yes it is. Add Crystal Input Transformers to nullify most forms of Blindsense/sight and the Antimagic Eye Graft and no one will ever make it to the center without permission.

[Amechra]

Kellus, why is there no ability to make "computer" viruses?

I protest!

Also, I might need to make an Understanding that allows Biollurgy to design diseases...

Or just fill up a Heuristic net with BIO 101, and have it convert every material that comes within reach of it...

Alright, so Biollurgical material retains its old properties... if you were to combine, say, Iron BM and Silver BM, would each bit keep its old properties? Or would the entire thing be converted into one or the other?

Because I kinda want to make a suit of armor by blending materials; you know, 'cause Full Plate is about a third of a pound of Iron...

Why? Iron Man (you just need to use the right materials, and you can make armor that let's you fly, shoot things out of your hands, and generate ebbs...)

[Kellus]

Kellus, why is there no ability to make "computer" viruses?

I protest!

Well, you can already hack into a circuit and insert trigger/response pairs, or change the ones already in it. I imagine you could design a machine to automate the process, too...

Also, I might need to make an Understanding that allows Biollurgy to design diseases...

Wayyyyy ahead of you. There's a 2nd level graft called a Disease Incubator, and it even lets you change the vector.

Alright, so Biollurgical material retains its old properties... if you were to combine, say, Iron BM and Silver BM, would each bit keep its old properties? Or would the entire thing be converted into one or the other?

When you combine biostructure, the entire mass gets the worst of all the individual properties. But it keeps the combined weight and volume, which means that you can indeed blend densities together. But your silver/iron alloy ends up with hardness 5 and 10 hit points per inch of thickness, even though there's iron in it.

Now, the question of whether it 'counts' as various metals for things like a transformer or an engine is an interesting one. I have to be forced to conclude that because you add the volumes together without changing the combined weight, the metals both still exist in the alloy. So, for example, if you combine 0.5 cubic feet of iron with 0.5 cubic feet of silver, you end up with 1 cubic foot of biostructure that still counts as both 0.5 cubic feet of both silver and iron for gramaric principles even though it has the vital statistics of pure silver.

Clear as mud?

[Amechra]

So, would I be able to turn that hypothetical Silver-Iron BM into an Ascending engine after the fact, or would there not be enough material left?

(My eventual goal is to have a Biollurgical Chassis that produces BM that counts as all the Planetary metals. Simultaneously.)

[Qwertystop]

So, would I be able to turn that hypothetical Silver-Iron BM into an Ascending engine after the fact, or would there not be enough material left?

(My eventual goal is to have a Biollurgical Chassis that produces BM that counts as all the Planetary metals. Simultaneously.)

I think you'd need to have more.

[Kellus]

So, would I be able to turn that hypothetical Silver-Iron BM into an Ascending engine after the fact, or would there not be enough material left?

(My eventual goal is to have a Biollurgical Chassis that produces BM that counts as all the Planetary metals. Simultaneously.)

Not even close. An Ascending engine requires 8 cubic feet of silver, and this biostructure only counts as 0.5 cubic feet of it.

But if you're looking for an easy way to fly around in a suit, may I suggest a controlled polarcane flux centered around you with a gravity trait? You can flip the gravity in the bubble whatever direction you want, and you freefall. You could also automate something like that with some heuristic programming to essentially make you weightless, by stuttering the reverse gravity effect on and off.

EDIT: By the way, for anyone that's handling metals, I added a density column to the alchemetry chart in Mysterious Metallurgy that measures the planetary metals by lb/cubic foot. Should make things a little easier, I hope?

EDIT the SECOND: Also, holy crap did I ever lowball the weight of metal. Now I know see why everybody was yelling at me about that. I'm changing all of the Alchemetry targets to "Solid planetary metal body of no more than 8 cubic ft. and weighing no more than 5,000 lb". I am so sorry, people.

[Arkhaic]

Makes me think of a class I'm designing that does gravity/weight stuff, but is still useful in combat. (The lodebearer reminded me of it too). The most practical application in combat so far is to Establish Control over everyone in the area (it let's me change their weight at will, instead of requiring physical contact) and then increase the weight of their eyelids. How's line of sight working out for you now Mr. Rocket-Tag?

Edit: Earlier I was talking about a flux effect inside of a semi-plane.

[Amechra]

Don't worry, Kellus; I, too, was surprised when I saw how heavy stuff like Gold was.

[General Patton]

But if you're looking for an easy way to fly around in a suit, may I suggest a controlled polarcane flux centered around you with a gravity trait? You can flip the gravity in the bubble whatever direction you want, and you freefall. You could also automate something like that with some heuristic programming to essentially make you weightless, by stuttering the reverse gravity effect on and off.

I thought putting Imachination stuff on your person was awesome but, by Celestia, this is the greatest thing ever. After finally rereading the spatial reference principles with a proper mindset of "I can totally wear these", I must point out that you could surround your flight flux with several additional fluxes that direct gravity away from you. Now, if you have all these fluxes surrounding a small object instead and have both Double Time and Slow Time Demiplanes attached to it and get your trusty AI to micromanage all the things, you can fly around with deflector shields in an extradimensional cockpit that either reduces travel time and aging or gives you bullet-time for that extra competitive edge. But wait, there's more! Take that object underwater first, encase it in Orange Filters and lift it out of the water and it's now in a total vacuum. Carefully place and orient semi-spaces around the object such that oncoming air from any direction is portaled around the object. Your flying machine is no longer subject to a terminal velocity and you shouldn't have to worry about wind speeds compromising your vacuum chamber.

[Gideon Falcon]

My one issue with this frankly fantastic class is the Silver Input Transformer and the Green and Violet Kaleidomantic Filters. Specifically, you have caster level checks pitted against skill checks. There are not a lot of ways to optimize caster level checks, whereas skill checks are easily optimized from level one. In addition, you can take twenty on the skill check. This means that, at first level, with the rogue Aiding you, CHA of 16+, 4 ranks in UMD, and Skill Focus (UMD), fairly low investment, you could make items that grant the user SR 32. At twentieth level (my rule of thumb being a standard primary ability modifier of +12 at that point), with The Architect, this increases to at least 58 without items.

Really, the CL checks should have a DC that scales linearly with level, not something like skill checks.

Once the negative is over and done with, though, HECK YES!!!
This is yet another masterpiece worthy of Kellus, and resonates with me especially, because I plan on some day writing a book or something on how magic would interact with real-world physics. Combining that concept of magiscience with your magitek, the Geek level becomes well over 9000.

[Kellus]

My one issue with this frankly fantastic class is the Silver Input Transformer and the Green and Violet Kaleidomantic Filters. Specifically, you have caster level checks pitted against skill checks. There are not a lot of ways to optimize caster level checks, whereas skill checks are easily optimized from level one. In addition, you can take twenty on the skill check. This means that, at first level, with the rogue Aiding you, CHA of 16+, 4 ranks in UMD, and Skill Focus (UMD), fairly low investment, you could make items that grant the user SR 32. At twentieth level (my rule of thumb being a standard primary ability modifier of +12 at that point), with The Architect, this increases to at least 58 without items.

In my defense, the pseudo-spell resistance is one-half the Use Magic Device check, but your point still stands.

I used a different mechanic on a later principle that I wrote when a similar issue came up. The main problem is that in this system you very specifically do not have a "gramarist level", which makes the traditional DC formula hard to use. The solution I came up with was a formula of 5 + 5 per principle you know from that discipline. That starts out at a flat 10 at level 1, and maxes out at 25 30. Not perfect, but I like the predictability a lot better. Thank you for bringing my attention to this oversight!

Once the negative is over and done with, though, HECK YES!!!
This is yet another masterpiece worthy of Kellus, and resonates with me especially, because I plan on some day writing a book or something on how magic would interact with real-world physics. Combining that concept of magiscience with your magitek, the Geek level becomes well over 9000.

Hey, I'm glad you like it! I think magitek is a pretty awesome idea, too!

I thought putting Imachination stuff on your person was awesome but, by Celestia, this is the greatest thing ever. After finally rereading the spatial reference principles with a proper mindset of "I can totally wear these", I must point out that you could surround your flight flux with several additional fluxes that direct gravity away from you. Now, if you have all these fluxes surrounding a small object instead and have both Double Time and Slow Time Demiplanes attached to it and get your trusty AI to micromanage all the things, you can fly around with deflector shields in an extradimensional cockpit that either reduces travel time and aging or gives you bullet-time for that extra competitive edge. But wait, there's more! Take that object underwater first, encase it in Orange Filters and lift it out of the water and it's now in a total vacuum. Carefully place and orient semi-spaces around the object such that oncoming air from any direction is portaled around the object. Your flying machine is no longer subject to a terminal velocity and you shouldn't have to worry about wind speeds compromising your vacuum chamber.

I... I have no words. This is beautiful.

Fun story time! The Orange filter, and then all of Kaleidomantics, and then this entire idea initially came from me wanting a way to build a vacuum airship in D&D. I kept thinking that there had to be some way to use magic to keep gas out of an area, but nobody ever thought that there should be rules about that sort of thing.

[Milo v3]

You may want to add Heal to the class list, otherwise the Biollurgist specialists are screwed.

Edit: As a mental excerise I was wondering about creating a living poket watch:

Spoiler

Show

Get 1 cubic foot of gold (Cost 48,000 gp)
Phase Change - Lower its melting point.
Heat to a molten state.
Lower Density to 132.277 lb.
Phase change - increasing its melting point.
Get crafted into a pocket watch (Dimunitive in size).
Attach 1 or three Gravity Polarcane Fluxes to it.
Convert pocket watch into Biostructure.
Animate Construction

Finished Result = Living golden scarab/pocket watch which can attach to or lie in my hand as if it weighed nothing and "fly" back into my pocket at its whim. In addition, if anyone steals it, it will weigh 60 kg.

Note: Level 14 is required.

Also, I think I'm going to try and make a Disciple; Horotheurgy. Sadly its name doesn't sound very Magiteky.

[Eldan]

Time you mean? Tempo- works as a prefix, the Latin word for time.

Alternatively, go Greek and use either Kairos or Chronos, both of which mean time. Chronotect is a pretty cool name. Kairogenist (Maker of the right moment). Chronurgist (maker of time).

[Eldan]

So, one of my players wants to build a god computer now.
Still working on details, but the basics is a system that telepathically detects pious thoughts and outputs divine spells that are helpful to the praying person. Divine magic for everyone!

[Omnicrat]

So, one of my players wants to build a god computer now.
Still working on details, but the basics is a system that telepathically detects pious thoughts and outputs divine spells that are helpful to the praying person. Divine magic for everyone!

Man. And I thought I was saving the world by making solar powered spell transformers for food, water, and illness in every town...

[EdroGrimshell]

...What would happen if a warforged or other race that doesn't need sleep just just kept on working to build something continuously for a week?

[Kellus]

You may want to add Heal to the class list, otherwise the Biollurgist specialists are screwed.

Good catch, thank you.

As a mental excerise I was wondering about creating a living poket watch

Nice use of the density mod!

So, one of my players wants to build a god computer now.
Still working on details, but the basics is a system that telepathically detects pious thoughts and outputs divine spells that are helpful to the praying person. Divine magic for everyone!

That's the coolest idea for a deity I think I've ever heard.

...What would happen if a warforged or other race that doesn't need sleep just just kept on working to build something continuously for a week?

Yeah, if you can get around sleep you're a much more efficient gramarist!

[Eldan]

One of my players, the Yggdratecture specalist, had an idea for what is basically a gramarie grenade: a semispace filled with a substance (oil and alchemist's fire came up, but also biollurgical creatures), tethered to something like glass or clay that breaks on impact.
What's your opinion on this? I ruled that breaking the tether counts as tearing the space from the tether.

[Omnicrat]

I was thinking: Wouldn't higher prices for specialist principles make sense? They're harder to come by, they're incredibly useful, and they are very necessary for almost everything Gramarists want to do. It seems like specialists would charge more for their unique principles than their common ones.

[Kellus]

One of my players, the Yggdratecture specalist, had an idea for what is basically a gramarie grenade: a semispace filled with a substance (oil and alchemist's fire came up, but also biollurgical creatures), tethered to something like glass or clay that breaks on impact.
What's your opinion on this? I ruled that breaking the tether counts as tearing the space from the tether.

I'd tend to agree. Breaking or destroying the tether should collapse whatever is attached to it.

That being said, alchemist's fire and its ilk don't stack the way that most people think they should, which is the reason you don't see people throwing barrels of it around in catapults already. Having a massive amount of it in one place increases the area that it affects, but not the damage. Although you could combine a nice delivery system like this with an acid output to make the surprise a little more potent...

I was thinking: Wouldn't higher prices for specialist principles make sense? They're harder to come by, they're incredibly useful, and they are very necessary for almost everything Gramarists want to do. It seems like specialists would charge more for their unique principles than their common ones.

I need to do some thinking anyway about pricing for gramarie, since so much of it is subjective. Somebody earlier in the thread suggested relative price levels compared to the tech level of the setting, and it's a pretty good idea. This is as well, and I think combining them should have the effect of:

1. Not allowing players to get crazy rich at low levels
2. Not allowing players too easy access to high level stuff they can't make
3. Not allowing players to ignore specialist constraints

I need to run my numbers a few more times before I make any changes, but this is an excellent suggestion. Thank you!

[Volthawk]

I'd tend to agree. Breaking or destroying the tether should collapse whatever is attached to it.

That being said, alchemist's fire and its ilk don't stack the way that most people think they should, which is the reason you don't see people throwing barrels of it around in catapults already. Having a massive amount of it in one place increases the area that it affects, but not the damage. Although you could combine a nice delivery system like this with an acid output to make the surprise a little more potent...

Ah, awesome. I wasn't the guy who first came up with that, but I have an alternative version - stick a biollurgical chassis in there, so all you have to do is smash a glass bead or whatever and there you go, you have a creature out there! Magitech pokemon.

Of course, there's the life support issue, but I'm sure there's tons of ways of dealing with that.

[Eldan]

Have two creatures, one breathing X and exhaling Y, the other the same in reverse?