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2012-08-27, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
"Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-08-27, 05:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I guarantee there will be a rogue scheme for that eventually.
But more seriously, I don't think it's fair to judge the sorcerer based on
A) What we've seen so far
B) The fluff from that Legends and Lore article.
We've only seen one facet of the class so far, so come on guys, have a little patience. Secondly, and this is the part that really annoys me, the article wasn't a rules article, nor was it some some canonical D&D "If you don't play the game like this you're wrong" type of thing. It was FLUFF. Written by a guy who thought that was a cool back story for these mechanics. The sorcerer can be REFLUFFED however you like. In fact, it would probably be easier to refluff a sorcerer than say, a fighter or wizard.Last edited by Leeham; 2012-08-27 at 06:09 AM.
Majestic avatar by the wonderful yldenfrei
I have one , which is good, because I like him.
Won't you join me in Fallen London?
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2012-08-27, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Jude P.
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2012-08-27, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
What does a ninja do that is different from a rogue?
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2012-08-27, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It's about as different as an assassin is to a rogue. Meaning mostly, just one that decided to focus on some specific subset of the rogues abilities.
Honestly, I don't think either need to be separate classes, but it would help making a Rogue Scheme that is actually called: Assassin, Spy, Acrobat, and all that jazz so that folks who get caught up on names know what they're supposed to play. Now if they do that, which it looks like they will, my question would be what real difference would the ninja have to the assassin scheme to make it necessary?
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2012-08-27, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-08-27, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Smoke pellets are an item.
I didn't mean magic illusions. But I guess a couple of magic ninjutsu are kind of the classic western view of the ninja. Not that that necessarily means the ninja should be Naruto or something ridiculous like that. I don't think I'd like a magic ninja.Jude P.
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2012-08-27, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Points to consider from tradition (D&D tradition):
Assassins have a "Death Attack" and dabble in magic. One could say, the archetype the D&D Assassin covers, is the stealthy killer that uses magic to boost its skills.
Ninjas have various Supernatural powers. One could say a Ninja is a stealthy guy that uses Ki to for superhuman feats.
Both opposed to the Rogue, who currently seems to be a shady McGuyver type.
Whether you think thats enough of a distinction to make an own class is your call.
Personally, I think the Mage/Thief killer type is distinct enough to warrant a class. Its narrow, but not narrower than the Druid or Paladin. I wouldn't mind if its included in D&D Next.
The Ninja on the other side is to specific for my tastes as a class. Some (line of) Feats would be better, like "Ki User: Acrobatic", "Ki User: Body" and "Ki User: Mind" or so.
Sorry if I'm harping on semantics, but very few things are necessary for a fantasy PnP system. One could argue that something qualifies for the genre some kind of magic user has to be available, likewise some kind of warrior. The Wizard and Fighter classes would satisfy this.
What is represented by a class, or by a feat (or whatever) or at all, is largely contingent. The reasons for including one thing or the other can vary. For Next tradition likely plays a big role, as well as player expectations and considerings what makes for an interesting game.
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2012-08-27, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-08-27, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2012-08-27, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Something like the Pathfinder version, I perfer the Eastern anime/fantasy version. They can Shadowclone (mirror Image) using Ki, turn invisible, Use ki for extra attack, wall climb, etc.
Rogues don't have magic/Ki, rogues are better at disabling traps however.
Both can find them easily.Last edited by Starbuck_II; 2012-08-27 at 10:49 AM.
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2012-08-27, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I'd rather see both a Rogue scheme for a nonmagical Ninja and a Monk scheme for a mystical Ninja. There's no reason both ideas couldn't be expressed through different ways.
There is the moral of all human tales;
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
And History, with all her volumes vast,
Hath but one page...
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2012-08-27, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
This is a good idea. But they'll probably rename them so there aren't two schemes floating around called ninja.
Because they are entirely basing their argument on disliking the fluff. Fine, if you said you don't like the fluff of bloodlines there'd be no argument. IBut you try to tie your dislike of the fluff into an argument of the mechanics saying that bloodlines will have no changes in altering the class which is as yet unproven. That's what gets pointed out, repeatedly.
Now personally, after a quick read through the sorc/warlock thing without thinking of implications or whatnot, I thought the fluff was interesting. Not the best thing I've ever read, but interesting.Last edited by Dienekes; 2012-08-27 at 11:33 AM.
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2012-08-27, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
As mentioned, a ninja isn't just an assassin, he's also a spy, an infiltrator. Really, the real difference between a ninja and a samurai wasn't so much their fighting styles but how they applied themselves. Samurai were the honorable face of their lord, ninja were the guys that did their business on the sly.
I see them having all sorts of diversionary tactics/abilities. Maybe focused on more cinematic and acrobatic abilities. I see them more diverse and spread out.
Assassin's were killers, flat and simple. While there'd definitely be some cross-over in some areas, I see them as completely focused on something that ninja simply dabble in.
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2012-08-27, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Ninja deserve Hide in Plain Sight, definitely. Maybe an ability to avoid an attack by leaving a dummy image behind, and moving to behind the enemy. Fast movement. Possibly illusionary doubles. Maybe the ninjutsu abilities could be based on some Ki points system similar to the Sorcerer's Willpower in 5e. Uhh...some water-walk and wall-walk abilities. And maybe a fire-based ability. That's what I think of for Ninja.
Jude P.
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2012-08-27, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
That's a spellcaster with the Stealth Skill.
I like my ninja as just some guys who are really got at sneaking and silent killing with knives and poison and some scouting ability.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2012-08-27, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Fortunately, just about all of them could easily be represented, though it works best if there isn't an explicitly delineated Ninja class or theme or whatever. Yora's conception can be handled with a rogue with the right equipment and skills really easily, Lictor's is represented easily enough with skills in disguise and deceit, a high dexterity score, and the rogue class. Noparlpf's is the only listed conception which requires quite a bit of new stuff, and even then, I wouldn't be surprised if the Monk class ended up having quite a bit of it built in.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-08-27, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I think the new sorcerer is a really good idea. A "possessed" character isn't a well represented arch-type in D&D, and the idea of a caster who becomes more melee focused as he runs low on spell slots is a creative new dynamic that turns the concept of going nova and the 15 minute work day on its ear.
The problem is, that isn't what a sorcerer is in D&D. It's a great idea for a new class, but it is a drastic betrayal of an existing concept, and that is exactly the type of thing they should be shying away from if they are trying to win back fans of older additions and not alienate anyone.
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2012-08-27, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
How is that not what the sorcerer has been about historically? In 3.5, the sorcerer was just a re-hash of the wizard with slightly different casting. It wasn't until 4E that the sorcerer got their own distinct identity, and that identity is basically exactly what the 5E sorcerer is doing, just taken a step further.
As for specifically becoming more of a melee character when the spells are out, that's what the dragonblooded sorcerer does, not all sorcerers. We don't know what the other types do yet.Last edited by AgentPaper; 2012-08-27 at 02:38 PM.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-08-27, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Emphasis mine.
I don't think it is really. In 3e the idea of sorcerer as the mage who draws his power from his supernatural heritage was right there in his fluff if not in the mechanics, and in 4e it appeared again, with mechanical representation. Now this iteration of the sorcerer might seem a little extreme, but if you ask me it's the logical conclusion of this concept, mechanically supported so that now the class focuses on that concept to the point where the class is all about power from supernatural heritage, instead of that theme just being a minor feature of the class.Majestic avatar by the wonderful yldenfrei
I have one , which is good, because I like him.
Won't you join me in Fallen London?
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2012-08-27, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
fun with d&d character generation - I give you Belkar Bitterleaf
1st level Halfling Fighter CE
Str- 12
Dex- 17
Con- 14
Int- 10
Wis- 8
Cha- 13
AC- 15 (studded leather)
HP- 12
2 x dagger 1d6 (+6 to hit, +3 to damage)
Halfling-
Speed- 25 ft.
Lucky
Halfling Weapon Training
Halfling Nimbleness
Lightfoot- naturally stealthy
Thug-
intimidate- 4
stealth- 6
streetwise- 4
Duelist - tumbling
Dual Wielder- two weapon fighting
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2012-08-27, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-27, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
How 'bout no. Yes, there was a line in reference to supernatural heritage, but unlike the rest of the body of that text, it was written as myth-making than a statement of fact (and yes, there is a difference). The sorcerer fluff in 3e did not officially support any specific factor for why he could cast, making it the player's job to come up with all that background, if he felt it necessary.
Or to put it in a way that people will understand, the fighter. What did his class' fluff endorse for archetype? Anything you wanted it to. What if all fighters were in 5e mechanically forced to be mercenaries? How do you think people would take it?Last edited by Zeful; 2012-08-27 at 03:43 PM.
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2012-08-27, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
How are those in any way comparable? The sorcerer's fluff dictates only that you were born with strange powers. It says nothing about what you did with those powers, or anything else about your life at all. You could be a farmer who didn't know about his power until very late in his life, or you could be a scion of a noble bloodline that has nurtured their sorcerous bloodline for generations, or you could be a mercenary that uses their bloodline powers for coin.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.