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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    This is actually one of my issues with 4e (and to a certain extent 3e) - the idea that a fighter must be heavily focused on a single fighting style. In my mind, "the right tool for the right job" should be one of the skills that a fighter player should have, much like a wizard preparing his spell list.
    The issue is that fighters get way too few abilities to do that effectively, especially compared to wizards and whatnot. A big issue in 3.X was all the feats like Weapon Focus that were way underpowered and only applied to a specific weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    What, you never stub your toe while walking around your dwellingplace in a routine situation?

    Also, Take 10 Rules (or similar) are a great way of modeling "auto-success, but only when not distracted or hurrying."
    No, I never stub my toe around the house. Can't even remember the last time that happened. I have a fairly high Dex.
    I do think some skills should suffer from nat 1s, even though there are some things that pros will almost never have trouble with. Jump, for example. I have a decent Jump bonus, but occasionally I'm in a hurry and I trip or something and bungle my jump. One houserule I've seen used is a nat 1 gives a -X penalty (X depends on the house that's ruling) to skill checks instead of counting as a 1.
    Jude P.

  2. - Top - End - #602
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    My problem with this kind of reset is that the boardwipe doesn't normally arise organically from the elements of the story. Its obviously just there for the commercial benefits of telling people to buy new books because their old ones are now obsolete. Yeah I know that's the business model but they could at least be a bit more elegant about it.

    How about this. I create a setting to sell. I know that in 4 years I will have reached market saturation. I will want to have a new product at that time that replaces the old one. So I put a built in time bomb into the story.

    In the magical world of Algodia the evil Necromancer Zarek was sealed away with his magic a thousand years ago by 7 magical artifacts. 5 of the seals have been broken since then. There is a published quest where another seal is broken(about 2 years into the products life cycle). The loremasters believe the final seal will not last much longer. The PCs regularly fight villians who want to speed Zarek's return.

    Then when I want to put out a new edition I declare the final seal has been broken and Zarek has broken free bringing back necromancy and doing terrible things to the world.

    Much more elegant in my opinion.

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by MukkTB View Post
    <Snip>
    The problem is that you run into the issue Old World of Darkness had; if apocalypse is both inevitable and imminent, then nothing that the PCs do matters. They could sit home eating cheetos and it wouldn't even shift the outcome of the end-times slightly.

    One of the good things Games Workshop does to keep their setting fresh is to have Player actions in tournaments and other organized play actually impact the fluff. If Tau players win 90% of their battles, the Tau Empire expands and has a period of relative prosperity. If Chaos players dominate the tables enough, Cadia might finally fall some day.

    D&D has organized society play, stuff like Living Greyhawk or whatever, so it's not like they couldn't make an organic meaningful transition. And how awesome is it to know that your party opening a new path through the mountains or whatever had some minor .001% difference in shaping the future of Eberron or the Forgotten Realms? Plus it gives an incentive for players to join official games, which means more member subscriptions for WotC.

  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    D&D has organized society play, stuff like Living Greyhawk or whatever, so it's not like they couldn't make an organic meaningful transition. And how awesome is it to know that your party opening a new path through the mountains or whatever had some minor .001% difference in shaping the future of Eberron or the Forgotten Realms? Plus it gives an incentive for players to join official games, which means more member subscriptions for WotC.
    The fact that LFR doesn't do that was a huge disappointment for me. I completely agree with you.

  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Actually, according to the Gen Con keynotes address, WotC plans to start doing this with the Realms as soon as the Sundering is over.

  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    The problem is that you run into the issue Old World of Darkness had; if apocalypse is both inevitable and imminent, then nothing that the PCs do matters. They could sit home eating cheetos and it wouldn't even shift the outcome of the end-times slightly.
    Hardly. Say the setting is set about 20 years before the apocalypse, at which point everybody dies. Are you saying it isn't worth it to struggle to make sure that the last generation that grows up before the apocalypse does so in good conditions? Does the quality of life for those last 20 years simply not matter because everyone is dead in the end either way? Or course not.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  7. - Top - End - #607
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    The problem is that you run into the issue Old World of Darkness had; if apocalypse is both inevitable and imminent, then nothing that the PCs do matters.
    But oWOD books intentionally kept it unclear whether said apocalypse was inevitable or imminent, or even happening in the first place. Neither players nor characters can know for sure.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Say the setting is set about 20 years before the apocalypse, at which point everybody dies. Are you saying it isn't worth it to struggle to make sure that the last generation that grows up before the apocalypse does so in good conditions? Does the quality of life for those last 20 years simply not matter because everyone is dead in the end either way?
    Pretty much, yes. It's re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic; the PCs make choices, it's just all the possible outcomes of their choices are fairly trivial.

    You might make life marginally better for the people in a limited area, or fight some minor BBEG, but when the timer counts down to zero all the pieces get wiped off the board and nothing you did means anything. That might be good theme for a game based around the idea of existentialism or cosmic horror, but it destroys player agency and IMO weakens a game system to do it.

    There's a similar problem with the Star Wars games; if you play it anywhere near canon, then the players can't really change any of the most important events going on around them. It's hard to be a hero when you're powerless to make the world better, and almost impossible to make a compelling villain if they can't meaningfully threaten anything.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Even though it is realistic for fighters to be trained in multiple weapons, particularly if they were in an army, characters in fantasy who use weapons almost always have a specific weapon with which they specialize, and thus almost ALWAYS use in battle. I think 4e does this fine, as a fighter can use any military-grade weapon if they have to, but can choose feats to specialize in using their favorite weapon better. 5e only has a few feats so far, so we only have a rough idea of where they're going with weapon specializations, but it seems that it is largely the same: the fighter has training in every weapon category, but if you choose, for example, the Archer specialty, you are better with bows than other weapons.

  10. - Top - End - #610
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    One of the good things Games Workshop does to keep their setting fresh is to have Player actions in tournaments and other organized play actually impact the fluff. If Tau players win 90% of their battles, the Tau Empire expands and has a period of relative prosperity. If Chaos players dominate the tables enough, Cadia might finally fall some day.
    Like that one tournament where they advertised they would advance the setting according to the results and just ignored it and wrote what they wanted to anyway? I think it was Warhammer Fantasy though.

    On Apocalypse: Well, *everyone* dies eventually. Is everything we do meaningless because of it?

  11. - Top - End - #611
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    On Apocalypse: Well, *everyone* dies eventually. Is everything we do meaningless because of it?
    No, because even after you die, there will be others who's lives you will have had an effect on.
    Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    No, because even after you die, there will be others who's lives you will have had an effect on.
    By this logic, you should never do anything that doesn't benefit all of humanity, like watch TV... play video/tabletop games... screw around on internet forums... Since, unless it has a permanent effect, it was all for nothing!

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    By this logic, you should never do anything that doesn't benefit all of humanity, like watch TV... play video/tabletop games... screw around on internet forums... Since, unless it has a permanent effect, it was all for nothing!
    Well, leisure has it's purpose. Games and playfulness are connected with curiosity and learning, happy people are more productive, and mass media like TV and the Internet open up ways for people to do good never before seen. But yeah, most people in the 1st world (myself included) don't do nearly enough good to justify the amount of goodies we enjoy.

    And to avoid a complete de-rail;

    Quote Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
    Even though it is realistic for fighters to be trained in multiple weapons, particularly if they were in an army, characters in fantasy who use weapons almost always have a specific weapon with which they specialize, and thus almost ALWAYS use in battle. I think 4e does this fine, as a fighter can use any military-grade weapon if they have to, but can choose feats to specialize in using their favorite weapon better. 5e only has a few feats so far, so we only have a rough idea of where they're going with weapon specializations, but it seems that it is largely the same: the fighter has training in every weapon category, but if you choose, for example, the Archer specialty, you are better with bows than other weapons.
    The problem with saying that Fighters being trained with all Martial weapons means they are generally competent with them, is that proficiency alone doesn't really mean much. Sure they don't take a non-proficiency penalty, but they aren't going to be able to use them well; bows in particular require highly specialized builds to be effective.

    I would prefer a Fighter with a broad range of powers which inflict status effects (Prone, Stunned, etc) through attacks and let them do that through whatever weapons they are trained in. Weapon Style feats can cover using specific weapons or weapon groups in particular ways, but the base Fighter chassis should be decent with whatever random weapon they pick up.
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-08-30 at 07:58 PM. Reason: Added Quote.

  14. - Top - End - #614
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    By this logic, you should never do anything that doesn't benefit all of humanity, like watch TV... play video/tabletop games... screw around on internet forums... Since, unless it has a permanent effect, it was all for nothing!
    It is all for nothing, but you don't do those things to have some lasting effect on the world. You do them because they're fun, and they pass the time if you don't have anything better to do.

    Heroic deeds, such as overthrowing an evil tyrant or killing orcs to prevent an invasion, are usually distinctly not fun. Those types of activities you do because of their lasting effect on the world. You do them in the hope that it will bring about a better future. If there is no future to save or improve, then none of that is worth doing.
    Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    You do them in the hope that it will bring about a better future. If there is no future to save or improve, then none of that is worth doing.
    There is a future to save or improve, it's just not necessarily a very long one.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  16. - Top - End - #616
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    I'm happy about the inclusion of non-Vancian casters, since I've always HATED Vancian casting. What else do people think about the Sorcerer?

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemonhawk View Post
    I'm happy about the inclusion of non-Vancian casters, since I've always HATED Vancian casting. What else do people think about the Sorcerer?
    I don't hate Vancian, but I've never thought it should be the default. Of course, it depends on the setting, but I think if they're going for the most vanilla setting they can for the core, they should give wizards a certain number of spells that they can cast all they want (after making sure everything is balanced, of course).

    But tradition is rearing its head and they're trying to appeal to old-school gamers, so Vancian it is.

  18. - Top - End - #618
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
    I don't hate Vancian, but I've never thought it should be the default. Of course, it depends on the setting, but I think if they're going for the most vanilla setting they can for the core, they should give wizards a certain number of spells that they can cast all they want (after making sure everything is balanced, of course).

    But tradition is rearing its head and they're trying to appeal to old-school gamers, so Vancian it is.
    Even so, magic is D&D has always been very versatile, allowing for many different combinations. Having only one way to cast magic no matter what doesn't make sense. I can swing a sword different ways, persuade people in different ways, and do pretty much anything else in multiple ways, but I can only cast magic one way...It just never made sense to me.

  19. - Top - End - #619
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Wait I'm confused. How is planing an apocalyptic event long beforehand different than spontaneously deciding to have one? Doesn't it make the struggle of the heroes beforehand somewhat meaningless in either case?

    I like that idea about the world being changed by the aggregate player action.

  20. - Top - End - #620
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Anyways, I'm going to PAX tomorrow, I'll try attend any D&D panels I can, and post what I can hear, that if if the sweet sweet lure of the expo hall doesn't take me(and if I don't spend too much time at the Dominion Tournament.)
    "Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    So, topic change.

    Item crafting. The devs haven't really talked about it much, but it's something that needs to be addressed. What does everyone think of it? What new directions should 5E take?

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    I'd say just ignore it, like every single campaign I ever played or ran.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    Item crafting. The devs haven't really talked about it much, but it's something that needs to be addressed. What does everyone think of it? What new directions should 5E take?
    My general guidelines for item creation are:

    a) Item creation should be possible for PCs. If the PCs have the power to kill demons and gods, it should be within their capabilities to make stuff. Item creation should also be practical – it shouldn't require jumping through a ludicrous number of hoops.

    b) Item creation should be cheaper than buying the same item from someone else. This is economics 101. If making an item costs the same as buying it from a shop, no-one will make items.

    c) To balance out a) and b), item creation should require some amount of character creation resources. If everyone can make magic items, there's no scarcity. You should need to spend feats (or skill points, or build points, or whatever) to do it.

    At the moment I quite like the Pathfinder model for doing it: PCs can create items for 50% of their value, assuming they have the time, item prerequisites, and feats to do so. Effectively, an item creation feat is trading a feat slot for gold (and for the ability to make your own stuff instead of relying on other people to do it). The 50% mark is a logical one because that's also the basic sell value for items.

    Not everyone likes item crafting, but some people do, and it would be pretty silly to refuse to include a system for item crafting just because not all the players will use it.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

  24. - Top - End - #624
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    When I first heard about a lot of the goals of 5n, I was very excited. The more that I've listened to the podcasts with Mearls, the less excited I've become.

    He continually leans towards "ease of use" and DM Fiat. I'm not going to pay for a game that relies on DM Fiat. If I have to make up my own rules, I'm not going to pay for yours. Making everything easy seems to have transgressed into making everything stupid. I'm still somewhat optimistic . . . but listening to Mearls makes me think this game is made for children who can't understand or be bothered by basic mechanics.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Well, I do. After 3rd Edition, I am no longer going to invest time and money into games where I have to learn rules for everything imaginable and I need to justify it to the players every time I do things in a different way.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    My general guidelines for item creation are:

    a) Item creation should be possible for PCs. If the PCs have the power to kill demons and gods, it should be within their capabilities to make stuff. Item creation should also be practical – it shouldn't require jumping through a ludicrous number of hoops.
    Well... crafting magical equipment needs only to be practical if acquiring magical equipment plays a big role like it does in 3e and 4e. If magic items are supposed to be *special* easy and practical item creation may not be advisable.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Well... crafting magical equipment needs only to be practical if acquiring magical equipment plays a big role like it does in 3e and 4e. If magic items are supposed to be *special* easy and practical item creation may not be advisable.
    True enough, but D&D settings typically have huge amounts of magical stuff floating around. Low-magic D&D is possible but isn't the norm.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    We've already seen how PCs can craft mundane items at level 1, with the Artisan background. However, I agree with Zombimode: they've said that magic items aren't even going to be necessary to add into the treasure if you don't want to. Each item will make the group more powerful than average. They'll also have tables and suggestions for giving every magic item a story. Knowing this, if the PCs were able to create magic items just by picking a feat and spending some gold, they would either have to be
    • really lame items,
    • require multiple feats to craft better items,
    • or have to be really high level.

    I'm sure that there will be a way to make it balanced, but it will take a lot of investment on the part of the character who chooses to be a magical item crafter.
    Last edited by Camelot; 2012-08-31 at 07:22 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    I really dislike dependence on magic equipment. If we're moving away from that and making magic items quest items, or at least rare, I'll be happy.
    Which is not to say that better weapons (bonuses to attack and damage) and armor (bonuses to AC and drops in ACP) shouldn't be a thing, but they should be cheaper and should be considered mundane.
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2012-08-31 at 07:40 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
    However, I agree with Zombimode: they've said that magic items aren't even going to be necessary to add into the treasure if you don't want to. Each item will make the group more powerful than average. They'll also have tables and suggestions for giving every magic item a story.
    That's all fine and dandy for the default baseline rules, but I'd certainly expect to see a module that allows for magic items to be more common without it snapping the game in half. Especially since magitech settings like Eberron are fundamentally incompatible with the notion of magic being exotic.

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