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  1. - Top - End - #871
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Yes, that remains to be seen how that works in the long run. But hp are passive staying power, they only make encounters last longer. Which might hurt glass cannon characters, but I don't think many people are fond of those anyway.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Yeah, it seems like a very simple solution to many problems would be to dramatically reduce the progression of scales. It makes starting bonuses far more meaningful, and just plain removes a lot of design problems.

    On the con side though, it's another system. Ever since the great 3.5/4E/Pathfinder sundering (and the birth of a few children - myself and my friends are all in our 30's), I've had a really hard time cobbling together a regular gaming group. 5E will just make the problem worse, not better. (At least until the children grow old enough to take part in our hobbies. Which is main point in having children, after all).

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    (At least until the children grow old enough to take part in our hobbies. Which is main point in having children, after all).
    I once gamed at a family's house and they had two kids. Refills on soda and letting the cat/dog in and out were just a voice command away. Some people are waiting for the future to take care of our needs, but I say that children are our future.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Hylas View Post
    I once gamed at a family's house and they had two kids. Refills on soda and letting the cat/dog in and out were just a voice command away. Some people are waiting for the future to take care of our needs, but I say that children are our future.
    Two well-behaved kids sounds all right. For a while I was gaming with a DM who had 5 kids, the oldest of whom was 8. While we all loved their kids, it made game night really annoying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Two well-behaved kids sounds all right. For a while I was gaming with a DM who had 5 kids, the oldest of whom was 8. While we all loved their kids, it made game night really annoying.
    One of my groups died due to people getting married and having kids. Kids are great, but they keep you busy enough that you can't always spare 4 hours every other week.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Ha! I use the chaos of our lives (with two little boys) as the basis for my need for gaming. If I don't get it, the chaos gets overwhelming, and I go Craaazy! So my wife agrees to game day :) Otherwise I have no doubt that our weekends would be planned out months in advance, with no room for gaming. It's all about the spin.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Hylas View Post
    One of my groups died due to people getting married and having kids. Kids are great, but they keep you busy enough that you can't always spare 4 hours every other week.
    Yeah, sadly that's the situation with my friends right now too. I have to step up my convention attendance so that I can make more friends to game with, and/or wait until someone invents robot baby sitters.

    On a semi-related note, is there any official timeline on when 5E will be officially published? I assume they're hoping to get it done before Christmas. But they haven't released 90% of the rules, which makes me think that they're not going to, and that there will be no SRD, which kinda defeats the purpose of a play test.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    On a semi-related note, is there any official timeline on when 5E will be officially published? I assume they're hoping to get it done before Christmas. But they haven't released 90% of the rules, which makes me think that they're not going to, and that there will be no SRD, which kinda defeats the purpose of a play test.
    You know what they say when you assume. They actually announced in the keynote speech at Gen Con that they have a two-year plan at the moment, so we won't be seeing 5th edition published until at least 2014, if not later. There will likely be several more playtest packets before then.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
    You know what they say when you assume. They actually announced in the keynote speech at Gen Con that they have a two-year plan at the moment, so we won't be seeing 5th edition published until at least 2014, if not later. There will likely be several more playtest packets before then.
    That's what I heard at PAX too. My guess is, that after 4th, they want to do this right.

    4e was initially successful, but had no staying power, and while it's not a bad game, I think it went a little(a lot) too far in the hack-n-slash RPG direction. Even if it feels a little early, D&D needs a new edition.

    Announcing 5th two years+ before release is going to impact 4e sales negatively in the mean time, which means they must be planning on 5e being a big deal, and considering what I've seen so far, WotC wants this to be the best edition yet(time of course will tell, but it looks promising). While they've made no promises, at PAX they did state a desire to make this the last edition of D&D(or at least make it last longer), by just releasing supplements and hopefully the modular nature will prevent it from going under.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Does anyone know of a good summary of D&D Next and the various rules issues that have cropped up in the play test? I'm too lazy to read through hundreds of forum posts.
    There is a playtest package PM
    here

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    On the con side though, it's another system. Ever since the great 3.5/4E/Pathfinder sundering (and the birth of a few children - myself and my friends are all in our 30's), I've had a really hard time cobbling together a regular gaming group. 5E will just make the problem worse, not better. (At least until the children grow old enough to take part in our hobbies. Which is main point in having children, after all).
    I have found that 4e has actually brought back a few of my lapsed friends to D&D.
    look at it as an opportunity to bring up D&D to renew interest
    Last edited by Charity; 2012-09-11 at 01:18 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #881
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    What was the biggest complaint about 4e (legitimate or not)? "It's not DnD."

    That's why the survey questions are asking about things like "iconic spells" and such. That's why some playtest versions have left out things like Turn Undead. "That spell's too strong" or "this ability seems brokenly good if you can shield yourself too" are relatively easy to fix. Design foundations of classes and their mechanics are not so easy. If you ask people outright "what is DnD," you'll get a lot of eloquent answers, many of which are properly introspective and burrowing down to the fundamental precepts that must be there. Many more, however, might scratch the surface, but ignore something that the person actually does feel is fundamental, but feels is "obvious."

    How many of you, if asked "what's needed for DnD to feel like DnD," would mention that clerics needed to be able to Turn Undead? However, when they had a playtest at a con that did not have the ability, and a lot of people were asking "where's Turn Undead, how do I do that," it told them that this was an iconic ability that people expected to see in SOME form. I know I would not have included it on my list if asked, but the lack of it would feel like it was missing.

    I do thing that many people do not realize HOW early in the design process we're seeing. At GenCon, my DM for the Next playtest was in the FnF playtest, and he was able to vouch how different things were just since then. He was also where I first heard the "2 years" for how long they're planning to still be working on it (this was before PAX...well, 1 week before or so).

  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    ...they did state a desire to make this the last edition of D&D...by just releasing supplements and hopefully the modular nature will prevent it from going under.
    That's just plain impossible. Someone will get a new idea at some point, and management will inevitably trade hands, and eventually they'll start from scratch again. That's how it works, and that's not a bad thing. However, I do agree and hope that they try to make it last as long as possible. I've played three sessions of 5e now and it is fantastic for my (ever-changing) group.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
    That's just plain impossible. Someone will get a new idea at some point, and management will inevitably trade hands, and eventually they'll start from scratch again. That's how it works, and that's not a bad thing. However, I do agree and hope that they try to make it last as long as possible. I've played three sessions of 5e now and it is fantastic for my (ever-changing) group.
    I would agree. The art of game design is every evolving. We know more about how to design a good game now than we ever have before. I mean come on, at one point THAC0 was the most logical and intuitive system they could come up with. Eventually one of the following will happen:

    A) The system has been around so long that it feels old and dated, and much better ideas have come along.

    or

    B) People already have most of the books they want, and most the ground they can think of has been covered, so they make a new edition to allow them to start over again.

    I'd just rather 5e last 10-15 years rather than 4-6.

    Quote Originally Posted by huttj509 View Post
    =I do thing that many people do not realize HOW early in the design process we're seeing.
    This pretty much sums it up. Right now, they are just trying to get the basic core rules and the core 4 classes (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) up and running. Monsters, feats, equipment, spells, none of those have really even been touched yet, what they have are early pre-alpha versions of all of those that are designed to be there so the game can be tested in the mean time.

    As it stands, the core system is mostly there(though changing), the cleric is mostly done(aside from the spell list and more domains), the rogue is kinda close to done(though they have stated they either a) want to give more abilities to the rogue, or make sneak attack one of several options). The fighter is still a work in progress, and the wizard the haven't really touched yet(though, since arcane casting is powerful, I don't think they'll need too much). The Warlock and Sorcerer were just sent out so they could show something new at Gen Con, and honestly I don't think they were quite ready to see the light of day.
    Last edited by TheOOB; 2012-09-12 at 01:55 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grundy View Post
    Ha! I use the chaos of our lives (with two little boys) as the basis for my need for gaming. If I don't get it, the chaos gets overwhelming, and I go Craaazy! So my wife agrees to game day :) Otherwise I have no doubt that our weekends would be planned out months in advance, with no room for gaming. It's all about the spin.
    Ah, excellent advice... my wife is about to have our first baby any day now, and my brother just had his first child... excuse me as I continue developing machiavellian plans to continue playing D&D....

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    My wife was very supportive of me going off and playing D&D every few weeks while the kid was a baby. Oddly enough, as the kid got older, going off got harder. The gaming group collapses, so now I got to church with the kid, and that seems to matter more.

    Personally, I want to get together a game group where we collaboratively create the gameworld and scenarios.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Now would be the time to add in some features from other Hasbro lines especially the pony races from the My Little Pony series.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 b4k4 View Post
    It seems to me that when they do provide slightly more extensive fluff, the wailing and gnashing of teeth concerning the restrictiveness of said fluff begins. See some of the reaction to the little fluff they put in the playtest for sorcerers vs warlocks vs wizards.
    Except D&D went in the opposite direction with 4th edition and it is one of the major complaints about the system. Honestly, it is a tight rope WotC has to walk. My personal opinion is to air on more fluff rather than too little and include a paragraph in the DMG telling the DM it's ok to ignore baked-in fluff and make your own stuff, or - perhaps better yet - listen to what your players want the fluff for their character to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Actually, it's not really subjective, especially not good and evil, which is the only one that's relevant for the paladin code. While a Paladin must be lawful, they can perform chaotic acts if need be. Remember that as a general rule, determining whether a specific action is a certain alignment is usually pointless, alignments represent general trends of a character.
    One of the biggest issues with the Paladin was that he DID have to follow the Lawful side of his alignment.

    A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

    Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


    He could never topple a dictator because doing so would not be respecting legitimate authority, He would also be helping people for chaotic means because what inevitably happens after a revolution? Chaos. Sure the end product is both good and lawful but the ends do not justify the means in D&D.

    Most DMs are not hardcore "Thou shalt not break alignment EVER" types but there will always be that fringe element that uses alignment like a cudgel. This is why I agree with you that alignment should be much more broad in scope and fairly vague.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    He could never topple a dictator because doing so would not be respecting legitimate authority, He would also be helping people for chaotic means because what inevitably happens after a revolution? Chaos. Sure the end product is both good and lawful but the ends do not justify the means in D&D.
    And this is a problem why? He's lawful. If the dictator is legitimate (as in, has actual rules that even he abides by, rather than simply doing whatever he wants), then the lawful paladin should absolutely be against starting a revolution. The means are chaotic, and the end is also chaotic.

    That said, I definitely agree that not every paladin should be forced into this kind of way of thinking. It fits for some, but the class can do more than this.

    My way of thinking, is that the paladins have no alignment restrictions whatsoever, but instead have a Paladin's Code. The Paladin's Code might be a personal code, or more likely it's a code developed and followed by a specific Order of paladins, who all follow that same code. (The order could also have non-paladin members, who are supposed to follow the code but aren't magically bound to)

    For example, you could have an order of Knightly Paladins, who's Code says that they must treat people with respect, always be polite to women, never attack an unarmed person (having spells memorized counts as "armed"), always protect the innocent, always respect and follow the orders of the king of (X land where the order is based out of), etc. etc.

    Importantly, all of these rules would be very clearly laid out, with no "hidden" rules that the paladin my break by mistake. The set of rules would need to be set up before the campaign begins, either by the DM as they create the order, or by the player as they decide their character's personal creed.

    This could also allow more exotic paladin orders, for example you could have a Order of the Red Dragon, whose Code consists of various stuff like following the orders of red dragons, attacking non-red dragons on sight, protecting red dragon eggs, and so on.

    Since there's no specific alignment restrictions, you could have evil paladins, even in an order designed for good paladins, as long as they follow the specific rules of the order. This allows for a lot more subtlety and interesting RP opportunities than all paladins simply being homogeneously lawful good by definition.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    "Legitimate" is a word with a lot of wiggle room. One could argue that any government that doesn't fulfill it's social contract with it's people(life, liberty, property) is illegitimate and thus needs to be toppled.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Felhammer View Post
    Honestly, it is a tight rope WotC has to walk. My personal opinion is to air on more fluff rather than too little and include a paragraph in the DMG telling the DM it's ok to ignore baked-in fluff and make your own stuff
    Except there already is such a paragraph. Several pages, actually.

    or - perhaps better yet - listen to what your players want the fluff for their character to be.
    This would be a welcome change, but unfortunately D&D still seems to be stuck in the "DM is God" mentality.

    One of the biggest issues with the Paladin was that he DID have to follow the Lawful side of his alignment.

    A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

    Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


    He could never topple a dictator because doing so would not be respecting legitimate authority, He would also be helping people for chaotic means because what inevitably happens after a revolution? Chaos. Sure the end product is both good and lawful but the ends do not justify the means in D&D.
    Actually the real problem with the Paladin is that Paladins can fall. This sort of thing (a character who wants to maintain tradition is faced with a tradition that is also horribly wrong) could be an interesting personal dilemma but Paladins hate dilemmas because, well, you get punished and fall either way. The mere presence of a Paladin forces everything to start being clear black and white or the Paladin player will become very upset with you.

    Most DMs are not hardcore "Thou shalt not break alignment EVER" types but there will always be that fringe element that uses alignment like a cudgel. This is why I agree with you that alignment should be much more broad in scope and fairly vague.
    Alignment is already extremely broad and vague. That's part of the reason it's so easy for alignment to start fights: The interpretation of alignment the DM makes is often mutually contradictory with the interpretation made by the players. And when something as important as "Keeping or losing all of your class features" is on the line, the fights can get ugly.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Players often forget that not only the ruler has right, but the populace as well. In medieval Poland, the lords actually had the RIGHT to rebel against the king. The barons of Britain certainly believed that had the same right against King John. Likewise, a paladin may have the right to overturn a government through civil war. The paladin may take up the right of the populace to remove an unjust king.

    Anyhow, I do generally agree that Paladin vs Alignment causes royal headaches for all the players. The class is written with conflict in mind. I thought that it would go away with 3rd, when the class got written more loosely, but instead it seemed to get worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    "Legitimate" is a word with a lot of wiggle room. One could argue that any government that doesn't fulfill it's social contract with it's people(life, liberty, property) is illegitimate and thus needs to be toppled.
    If that is the social contract. The idea that life, liberty, and property were what the government needed to uphold was not by any means universally accepted or even understood. For a large part of history the contracts were more like: You obey me, so long as it is the will of God. Or I protect you when the barbarians come, therefore you must obey me. Or you game me your oath until one of us is dead, and I'm still standing.

    Now I don't want to get into a politics debate. Needless to say I do not agree with the old way things were done on a lot of levels.

    Anyway on alignment. I think now's a good time to introduce alignment as something to be ditched with the modules. Sure you can have alignment, it's actually an ok way to help new players roleplay. But it should not be difficult to cut it out completely from a game. As for Paladins, having their own separate codes is nice. Though I haven't looked through them, Pathfinder may have the right idea here with the Cavalier class' Orders each with their own restrictions on how a member of that order is supposed to act.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    I like the alignment system. I actually think it's well defined, but poorly explained, due in large part to the fact that they don't have room to publish a 2-3 page essay on alignment.

    As far as I see it, alignment should not be used as a role play tool. I strongly support giving a player an alignment based on how they play, not playing to an alignment. In real life, I don't think "How would a Lawful Neutral" person act, I just act.

    Remember what alignment is, alignment is an objective property of living beings that determines how alignment based magic affects them. Alignment determines whether a detect evil or holy smite spell works on you, or whether or not you can use an unholy great axe. Since you can't get into an argument with a chaos hammer about why you took certain actions, your alignment must be just something you have, not something you work at and rationalize(I could see a situation where a formerly good character doesn't realize how far they have fallen until they take damage from their own holy smite).

    What alignment does is it allows for creatures who exemplify good and evil, law and chaos. It allows for spells and magical effects that target different people differently, and magic items that only some people can use. It gives a DM more options when making a story. You can pretty much ignore alignment entirely, or it could be used to give the BBEG a powerful weapon the players will never be able to use.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    I like the alignment system. I actually think it's well defined, but poorly explained, due in large part to the fact that they don't have room to publish a 2-3 page essay on alignment.
    Why not? They have a few pages on how spells work, so why not alignment? It could even be consigned to the DMG as a DM's tool rather than a player's tool.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    I really hope they stay true to alignment being optional, with no monsters that absolutely require good or lawful weapons to overcome their damage resistance and spells that affect creatures of different alignment differently.

    Though I guess there's good reason to make it so that paladins require alignment to be used in the game. Which shouldn't be really a problem since the entitre concept and archetype are based on objective forces of good and evil.
    Same could be done for something like Good and Chaos domains and their domain spells.

    Just not demons with Resistance to weapons unless good and spell like abilities that only affect good targets.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Why not? They have a few pages on how spells work, so why not alignment? It could even be consigned to the DMG as a DM's tool rather than a player's tool.
    I think it would be a good idea, but I understand that page space is limited and people at WotC may not care as much as I do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    I think it would be a good idea, but I understand that page space is limited and people at WotC may not care as much as I do.
    But they should care about the customers and clearly alignment has been a huge headache since forever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMac307 View Post
    Ah, excellent advice... my wife is about to have our first baby any day now, and my brother just had his first child... excuse me as I continue developing machiavellian plans to continue playing D&D....
    You've got to stay on top of it, or the ball will roll you under and spit you out, every time.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    But they should care about the customers and clearly alignment has been a huge headache since forever.
    But the question is, would D&D be a better game without alignment than with it. Remember that people complained when they simplified the alignment system for 4e.
    "Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."

    -Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion

  30. - Top - End - #900
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011

    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    But the question is, would D&D be a better game without alignment than with it. Remember that people complained when they simplified the alignment system for 4e.
    And yet others love how 4E all but ditched alignment: Not a single mechanical effect in the game depends on what alignment the target is.

    If there's anything in the base rules that should be cut out and put into a module, it's alignment. Keeping it around as the default is pretty much the ultimate example of keeping around a stupid tradition for tradition's sake.

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