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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    This is not a new problem.

    I recently made a Powers & Perils character (yes, really!), and my dwarf could press like 490 lbs with a pretty decent strength and good stamina.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    This is not a new problem.

    I recently made a Powers & Perils character (yes, really!), and my dwarf could press like 490 lbs with a pretty decent strength and good stamina.

    -O
    Just because it's not a new problem doesn't mean it should be ignored, especially when it's a simple problem to remedy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Just because it's not a new problem doesn't mean it should be ignored, especially when it's a simple problem to remedy.
    I dunno. Out of everything that bugs me in the Next playtest, this is one of the things that bugs me the least. Yes, it's wildly unrealistic, but it's super-easy. More accurate would probably require a 1e-style table or a more detailed formula.

    Basically, I can't blame the designers for being lazy about it in a playtest, and given how minor an issue it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the final version looks similar. It's a game about guys hauling treasure out of dungeons, not power-lifting in gyms, and the rule is perfectly adequate for that purpose. :)

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Basically, I can't blame the designers for being lazy about it in a playtest, and given how minor an issue it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the final version looks similar. It's a game about guys hauling treasure out of dungeons, not power-lifting in gyms, and the rule is perfectly adequate for that purpose. :)
    I gotta agree with this point.

    Yes it is an issue and yes I will provide more feedback about it, but I much rather them focusing on things like fighter's abilities, fluff, and such.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    I still don't see why they can't haul the chart straight out of 3.5:

    At 10 str (average) a character carries 33lbs unencumbered, up to 100lbs encumbered. Can lift 200, push 500.

    At 18 str (normal max) a character carries 100lbs unencumbered, up to 300 encumbered. Can lift 600, push 1500.


    Seems much more reasonable to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I still don't see why they can't haul the chart straight out of 3.5:

    At 10 str (average) a character carries 33lbs unencumbered, up to 100lbs encumbered. Can lift 200, push 500.

    At 18 str (normal max) a character carries 100lbs unencumbered, up to 300 encumbered. Can lift 600, push 1500.

    Seems much more reasonable to me.
    Eh, it's not like I'd specifically object to such a thing, but IMO, No Chart > Chart.

    If it's functional for the purposes of the game, that's enough for me. It's not like most groups are going to be doing much beyond eyeballing it, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I still don't see why they can't haul the chart straight out of 3.5:

    At 10 str (average) a character carries 33lbs unencumbered, up to 100lbs encumbered. Can lift 200, push 500.

    At 18 str (normal max) a character carries 100lbs unencumbered, up to 300 encumbered. Can lift 600, push 1500.


    Seems much more reasonable to me.
    Agreed, the 3.5 table is fairly reasonable.
    I just remembered, we used to have a riding-style lawn mower. Average mass of those is 400-600 lbs, and I could lift up one end of it and haul it around with one hand when the tires went flat and I had to move it to replace them, but I couldn't lift the thing off the ground entirely on my own. (Granted, they're not exactly shaped well for lifting, they're kind of bulky.)
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    True, an encumbrance table isn't that crucial - but then again, neither does it require a lot of work to make one. In terms of design, that makes it a "quick win"; good design does not generally consist of focusing only on the high priorities and neglecting the rest.

    If WOTC truly wishes to appeal to a broad market, then they would invest the fifteen minutes it takes to get this right. It's the attitude that matters, not this particular detail.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    True, an encumbrance table isn't that crucial - but then again, neither does it require a lot of work to make one. In terms of design, that makes it a "quick win"; good design does not generally consist of focusing only on the high priorities and neglecting the rest.

    If WOTC truly wishes to appeal to a broad market, then they would invest the fifteen minutes it takes to get this right. It's the attitude that matters, not this particular detail.
    That's my opinion on it too. It's not so much that encumbrance matters, but more that they're willing to invest time in the game, rather than just brushing things off as unimportant.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    True, an encumbrance table isn't that crucial - but then again, neither does it require a lot of work to make one. In terms of design, that makes it a "quick win"; good design does not generally consist of focusing only on the high priorities and neglecting the rest.

    If WOTC truly wishes to appeal to a broad market, then they would invest the fifteen minutes it takes to get this right. It's the attitude that matters, not this particular detail.
    Good design also means simple & functional, and keeping the focus of the game in mind. Which this does perfectly well. :)

    Like I said, it's not like I'll hate Next forever if it has an encumbrance table. But WotC also can't keep going down every single player's wishlists. It's already a frighteningly unfocused system, and adding in everything every player wants isn't a good idea. That's not bad design - it's trying to focus on the game's purpose.

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I still don't see why they can't haul the chart straight out of 3.5:

    At 10 str (average) a character carries 33lbs unencumbered, up to 100lbs encumbered. Can lift 200, push 500.

    At 18 str (normal max) a character carries 100lbs unencumbered, up to 300 encumbered. Can lift 600, push 1500.


    Seems much more reasonable to me.
    Reasonable yes, but an amusing thing resulted from it. Carrying everything you'd need for adventuring took a lot of weight. The bare necessities are 66 pounds on their own, almost two thirds an 18 str character's maximum unencumbered load, without factoring in money or weapons and armor, which could easily eat up the remaining 34 pounds.

    I think the inflated numbers are mostly so the party doesn't need a wagon to haul around their stuff/treasure everywhere. Yeah it's a little ridiculous, but the only other solution was to completely disregard the encumbrance rules in full.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Have to ask, any word on whether this edition will settle debates Re: Enlarge Person?

    Are they finally introducing an improved version at a higher level?

    Are they tweaking the spell itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_warlock View Post
    That's all fine and good, but not entirely relevant given that Wyatt has been quoted as saying 'Mike, our boss, has been steering us very clearly toward an experience that is more like the classic feel of "I'm fragile, I could go into this dungeon and be killed by a giant rat."'

    The designers aren't trying to build a system reminiscent of the Shadowrun experience you describe but instead one where they're intentionally pitting low level characters against the odds of a dice roll instead of having good/bad decisions on the part of the player/character decide their fate. Unless you want to make the argument that adventuring itself is a bad decision, which may be valid, but essentially undermines the entire purpose of the game.

    I'm fine with low-level characters being significantly weaker than high level ones, but there's no need to intentionally make them more fragile when, typically, the inherent randomness of low modifiers on dice rolls makes them more vulnerable to begin with.

    Exceptionally fragile low-level characters are no more fun for me than playing rocket tag with save-or-dies. Some people enjoy games where a single bad roll can end their character's career, but it shouldn't be the default for 5e. Especially when the majority of games take place at low level. I don't really want to return to the days where I had to bring 4-5 characters to a session simply to stay in the game after having characters die from essentially nothing more than bad luck.

    I don't like this way of thinking, you are limiting my playstyle by making adventurers as exceptional people off the bat, instead of having them grow into their abilities. If you start out low the only way you can go is up. If you feel like your characters should be stronger/tougher etc, then maybe there will be a module to buff up their HP gains & such. It's harder to nerf than it is to buff.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    I don't like this way of thinking, you are limiting my playstyle by making adventurers as exceptional people off the bat, instead of having them grow into their abilities. If you start out low the only way you can go is up. If you feel like your characters should be stronger/tougher etc, then maybe there will be a module to buff up their HP gains & such. It's harder to nerf than it is to buff.
    What version of D&D provides non-exceptional PCs by default?

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    What version of D&D provides non-exceptional PCs by default?

    -O
    Level 1?
    Also, the assumed default is 25 point buy, or 3d6. That provides an average score of 10-11 for each ability. That applies to PCs.
    Further, all the rules apply to NPCs too.

    Edit: A couple of posts down I was reminded that I had that mixed it. It's 15pb for 3d6, and 25pb for 4d6b3.
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2012-09-22 at 07:36 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Good design also means simple & functional, and keeping the focus of the game in mind. Which this does perfectly well. :)

    Like I said, it's not like I'll hate Next forever if it has an encumbrance table. But WotC also can't keep going down every single player's wishlists. It's already a frighteningly unfocused system, and adding in everything every player wants isn't a good idea. That's not bad design - it's trying to focus on the game's purpose.

    -O
    True. They only need concern themselves about my wishlist instead of everyone's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Level 1?
    Also, the assumed default is 25 point buy, or 3d6. That provides an average score of 10-11 for each ability. That applies to PCs.
    Further, all the rules apply to NPCs too.
    In 3.x, 25-point buy is akin to 4d6, pick 3, arrange to taste. It's the "elite array". Also, Elites (like the PCs) get max HPs at 1st level.

    As opposed to the "standard array" which is used by your average goblin or orc. They also have to roll for their first HD. :)

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Reasonable yes, but an amusing thing resulted from it. Carrying everything you'd need for adventuring took a lot of weight. The bare necessities are 66 pounds on their own, almost two thirds an 18 str character's maximum unencumbered load, without factoring in money or weapons and armor, which could easily eat up the remaining 34 pounds.

    I think the inflated numbers are mostly so the party doesn't need a wagon to haul around their stuff/treasure everywhere. Yeah it's a little ridiculous, but the only other solution was to completely disregard the encumbrance rules in full.
    66 lbs as a minimum? Maybe if you want to carry a tent and full kitchen set around on your back. Most adventurers tend to live a little less luxuriously than that. Some food, water, rope, and a sleeping bag is what most characters I've seen and played have at low levels. (later on with higher strength characters and extradimensional storage space, they tend to live it up a bit more even on the road)
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    In 3.x, 25-point buy is akin to 4d6, pick 3, arrange to taste. It's the "elite array". Also, Elites (like the PCs) get max HPs at 1st level.

    As opposed to the "standard array" which is used by your average goblin or orc. They also have to roll for their first HD. :)

    -O
    Oh, wait, 15 point buy would get you the 3d6 averages. 25 point buy is roughly equivalent to 4d6b3. Right. Okay, so PCs get slightly above-average stats at the beginning because of the assumption that most of the people who go adventuring are the unusual ones. That accounts for all the real superiority PCs have to NPCs at level 1, besides a couple of small class abilities.

    This doesn't argue my point that NPCs are held to the same rules as PCs. If a PC should be able to lift more, give them higher Str scores, don't change the rules that apply to normal people too.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Okay, so PCs get slightly above-average stats at the beginning because of the assumption that most of the people who go adventuring are the unusual ones. That accounts for all the real superiority PCs have to NPCs at level 1, besides a couple of small class abilities.
    That was my main point, yes.

    I am not arguing that a strength score should mean something else - just that 3.x assumes by default that the PCs are special in the setting and better than normal people. It represents this with better scores, more HPs, and free access to PC classes.

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Also, the assumed default is 25 point buy, or 3d6. That provides an average score of 10-11 for each ability. That applies to PCs.
    Further, all the rules apply to NPCs too.
    Uhhhh.... what?

    A 15 Point buy will net you the Standard Array (11/11/11/10/10/10), which all "ordinary" NPCs use by default, and the Non-Elite Array (13/12/11/10/9/8) which the DMG suggests using to spice things up.

    A 25 point buy will generate the Elite Array (15/14/13/12/10/8), which is recommended for "elite" NPCs who have PC levels and normal WBL.

    Also, the default rolling method laid our in the SRD is 4d6b3 not 3d6. Just rolling 3d6 flat will come out much much lower than a 25pt buy, and leave you with very very weak characters. Although that might be what you're looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    66 lbs as a minimum? Maybe if you want to carry a tent and full kitchen set around on your back. Most adventurers tend to live a little less luxuriously than that. Some food, water, rope, and a sleeping bag is what most characters I've seen and played have at low levels. (later on with higher strength characters and extradimensional storage space, they tend to live it up a bit more even on the road)
    Bedroll, blanket, the backpack, a belt pouch (unless you'd rather spend time digging through your bag looking for money to pay), a mirror, crowbar, rope, grappling hook, lantern, waterskin, tent, and 10 days trail rations.

    That's not really luxury, and is actually hilariously cut down from what a set of adventurer would really carry (where's he going to put any loot that can't be strapped to his belt? Spare clothes? Spare Oil for the lamp, the containers for that oil? What about kitchen ware for just boiling potable water? Firewood that won't be sending up a tower of smoke when you burn it? Spell component pouch, holy symbol, disguise and or lock picks?). The tent could be stricken for 20 pounds, but carrying your pack, your armor (which can range from 10 to 50 pounds depending) and your weapon (another 2-8 pounds), means most characters, even strength 18 characters are encumbered when carrying all their crap around, and would need to drop their packs when they start fighting, and make several trips out of a dungeon with any large amount of loot.
    Last edited by Zeful; 2012-09-22 at 08:53 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    I don't like this way of thinking, you are limiting my playstyle by making adventurers as exceptional people off the bat, instead of having them grow into their abilities. If you start out low the only way you can go is up. If you feel like your characters should be stronger/tougher etc, then maybe there will be a module to buff up their HP gains & such. It's harder to nerf than it is to buff.
    Characters in a D&D game of any edition are already exceptional people - spell-slinging magic users and trained warriors. If you're looking for unexceptional people, you won't find them in a fantasy game. Unless you're planning on a party of commoners? Again, maybe you find that fun, but a party of commoners should not be the default for a D&D game.
    Last edited by ghost_warlock; 2012-09-22 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Bedroll, blanket, the backpack, a belt pouch (unless you'd rather spend time digging through your bag looking for money to pay), a mirror, crowbar, rope, grappling hook, lantern, waterskin, tent, and 10 days trail rations.

    That's not really luxury, and is actually hilariously cut down from what a set of adventurer would really carry (where's he going to put any loot that can't be strapped to his belt? Spare clothes? Spare Oil for the lamp, the containers for that oil? What about kitchen ware for just boiling potable water? Firewood that won't be sending up a tower of smoke when you burn it? Spell component pouch, holy symbol, disguise and or lock picks?). The tent could be stricken for 20 pounds, but carrying your pack, your armor (which can range from 10 to 50 pounds depending) and your armor (another 2-8 pounds), means most characters, even strength 18 characters are encumbered when carrying all their crap around, and would need to drop their packs when they start fighting, and make several trips out of a dungeon with any large amount of loot.
    You have a strange idea of what "an adventurer would really carry" especially since you've already admitted that the 3.5 rules for capacity are pretty accurate and the rules in the playtest have characters capable of carrying way too much. An adventurer would "really" have to be conscious of what he's carrying and cut out things that aren't necessary. Carrying around firewood on your back when you're walking through areas that you can get wood is stupid. As is carrying around a week's worth of clothes, a full set of kitchen ware, mirrors, crowbars, etc. These are things adventurers would probably like to have, but generally don't want to lug around with them all the time. The fact that they can't is what makes extra-dimensional storage so nice.

    And yes, you will probably need several trips, or a wagon or something, to clear out a large dungeon full of loot. Are you also going to say that "real" adventurers just load up an entire dungeon worth of stuff on their backs and walk out?
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_warlock View Post
    Characters in a D&D game of any edition are already exceptional people - spell-slinging magic users and trained warriors. If you're looking for unexceptional people, you won't find them in a fantasy game. Unless you're planning on a party of commoners? Again, maybe you find that fun, but a party of commoners should not be the default for a D&D game.
    ...unless you're playing WFRP 1e or 2e. :)

    Which, btw, is my go-to game if "rags to riches" is a vital part of my campaign idea.

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_warlock View Post
    Characters in a D&D game of any edition are already exceptional people - spell-slinging magic users and trained warriors. If you're looking for unexceptional people, you won't find them in a fantasy game. Unless you're planning on a party of commoners? Again, maybe you find that fun, but a party of commoners should not be the default for a D&D game.
    Let me put this another way maybe? It's all about relative competence

    Cop = NPC townguard
    Average Soldier (after maybe one tour in war) or a well decorated cop = What I'd like to see as the basis for a level one character
    Special Forces = 4e's level of competency of a level one character

    I want my player's to feel mortal & like something mundane can kill them. It makes them act realistically to the world & to act a lot smarter about fighting foes.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    You have a strange idea of what "an adventurer would really carry" especially since you've already admitted that the 3.5 rules for capacity are pretty accurate and the rules in the playtest have characters capable of carrying way too much. An adventurer would "really" have to be conscious of what he's carrying and cut out things that aren't necessary. Carrying around firewood on your back when you're walking through areas that you can get wood is stupid. As is carrying around a week's worth of clothes, a full set of kitchen ware, mirrors, crowbars, etc. These are things adventurers would probably like to have, but generally don't want to lug around with them all the time. The fact that they can't is what makes extra-dimensional storage so nice.

    And yes, you will probably need several trips, or a wagon or something, to clear out a large dungeon full of loot. Are you also going to say that "real" adventurers just load up an entire dungeon worth of stuff on their backs and walk out?
    No, I'm not going to say "...real adventurers just load up an entire dungeon worth of stuff on their backs...", because my point was that the 3.5 weight allocations made trying to carry loot out of the dungeon hard, to the point that you'd need to bring a mule or a cart along for the ride just to store essential things so you weren't carrying a 40+ pound pack into battle, and had more than 2 or 3 pounds available to carry loot without it slowing you down. Which is why they went with the much higher and less realistic weight system this time around.

    As for the rest of the post. That was gross exaggeration of my point. Yeah, adventurers need to be conscious of what their carrying, like real life backpackers would, but the logistics behind carrying armor, weapons, and then all the stuff you need (which for what are a group of grave robbers is pretty similar to what freebooters or mercenaries would have carried), gets heavy really quickly, such that going in without some way of not carrying the weight of your camping supplies into the dungeon, looting the thing is almost impossible.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    It is called dungeons and dragons, not logistics and chart management. If you find keeping track of weight, food, water, encumbrance, various lackeys and mules, and all that sort of stuff that realistic adventurers would have to worry about, then you can add a module on to handle all of that. (either one made by WotC or more likely a fan creation) For those of us who'd rather worry about, well, just about any other aspect of DnD, having simple rules that don't bog the game down is much more important than realistic bench pressing.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    It is called dungeons and dragons, not logistics and chart management. If you find keeping track of weight, food, water, encumbrance, various lackeys and mules, and all that sort of stuff that realistic adventurers would have to worry about, then you can add a module on to handle all of that. (either one made by WotC or more likely a fan creation) For those of us who'd rather worry about, well, just about any other aspect of DnD, having simple rules that don't bog the game down is much more important than realistic bench pressing.
    Then why not just remove Encumbrance from the game?

    Rather than have twist realism into a horrible knot to justify an unrealistic mechanic, just don't model it at all in the core rules. If they take the time to model how much a typical human can carry, it's sort of weird that they're use such arbitrary numbers (not just for carrying capacity, for weapon weight and other aspects as well). They could just say "what a character can carry should be kept reasonable, and the DM may rule that a heavily overburdened character has Disadvantage under certain physical checks". Giving out precise rules for it which are silly from a realism standpoint doesn't make sense to me, as it's grating to people who care about logistics in game (as the numbers are weird) and the exact same to people who don't care (as they'll do their own thing anyway).
    Last edited by Menteith; 2012-09-22 at 10:37 PM.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    Let me put this another way maybe? It's all about relative competence

    Cop = NPC townguard
    Average Soldier (after maybe one tour in war) or a well decorated cop = What I'd like to see as the basis for a level one character
    Special Forces = 4e's level of competency of a level one character

    I want my player's to feel mortal & like something mundane can kill them. It makes them act realistically to the world & to act a lot smarter about fighting foes.
    I find low-level 4e to be pretty darn lethal. Sure, the PCs are more capable, but so are the enemies. (It was less lethal early in the edition, but with the MM3 fixes - mostly to brute accuracy and soldier damage, while you're at low levels - it's plenty lethal now. And at higher levels, lethality is cut way down.)

    One-hit death is rare, but simple character death can happen even with an L+1 or L+2 encounter.

    -O

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