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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    This only works when you're using a plot that has a time limit to it, like "Save the princess before she gets eaten by the dragon" or "Stop the evil cult before they complete the ritual to summon Cthulhu."

    If your campaign centers around something the PCs can well afford to take their time with, like "Explore the jungles of Xen'drik and find hidden treasure", this falls apart entirely.
    Not true at all. I know, having ran a campaign which consisted mostly of PCs exploring the game world at their leisure. Surprise surprise, it included exploring jungles for hidden treasure. Here's how passage of time affected their actions:

    Since resources dwindled as time passed, this put a cap on how far they could travel with any given expedition. When a random encounter let to loss of resources (injuries, food, beasts of burden etc.), it often lead to them having to rethink their course of action - sometimes, they could no longer reach their desired destination, or had to abandon treasure and come back for it later to safely get back to town. Sometimes, their desire to push on endangered their whole mission later down the line, when penalties that invidually would have been non-issues stacked to a point where success became extremely uncertain.

    This all served to create a natural ebb and flow to their exploration, with periods of searching, hunting, retreating and resting logically following from the game rules. My players became more involved as a result, since the evolving situation kept them on the edge and had them continuously coming up with increasingly inventive ways to circumvent their drawbacks. (Such as creating undead cows merely to haul all the treasure back in one go to minimize chance of random encounters.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    If the consequence is "you guys spend a week sipping margaritas while Jorgen's whiplash is healed /handwave" then there is no consequence.
    What happens during the week they spend healing? The answer to that question is the consequence! Just because it takes negligible time to go over at the table, doesn't mean the passing of time is relegated to meaninglessness.

    Let's take my above campaign again. Sometimes, weeks or months of in-game time passed over in a span of five minutes, but the passing of time was still important to the choices they made, as outlined above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    And if the alternative is that you punish the players for choosing to fight hurt, or punish the players for waiting for the wizard's concussion to heal, then I propose that you haven't given them a choice at all (or if you rather, you've given them two bad choices).

    If you want to give them temporary penalties until they have the option to rest (assuming they're under a time limit), I guess so?
    *DING DING DING* We have a winner here! You finally realized what is the sole purpose of any injury system, whether that be HP loss or permanent penalties. They exist to punish PCs for tactical failings!

    Mind you, this is not quite the same as punishing players. A player might actually want to roleplay a struggling character, or he might like plot twists resulting from a tactical error. He might have committed that tactical error precisely to trigger this course of events. Tell me you've never had a player have their character do stupid things just to have "something interesting" happen in the game.

    As for the choices, if there are two different paths with different outcomes (it's not one and the same what form a "punishment" takes"), then obviously player decision matters. That the choice can be between two evils is neither good or bad in itself.

    Again, the sole reason you have random elements in the game is to add uncertainty. This means and requires accepting that sometimes, things happen to your character against your will. This already applies to the HP mechanic: exact number of HP you have left will influence tactical decisions you have available, and it can put your character in a situation where he is SOL.

  2. - Top - End - #1382
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    What happens during the week they spend healing? The answer to that question is the consequence!
    Precisely. In terms of character optimization, it doesn't matter - but in terms of the role you play, it does.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    *DING DING DING* We have a winner here! You finally realized what is the sole purpose of any injury system, whether that be HP loss or permanent penalties. They exist to punish PCs for tactical failings!
    Please drop the attitude. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean deserve to be treated with disrespect.

    The game already has multiple resources in it that limit what a character thinks they can do at any one time (hit points, spell slots, magic item uses, etc). I'm sorry, I don't really see how adding one more (temporary injury) would add something new to the system, especially when there's already a rough marker in place (however flawed) to represent how "hurt" a player is -- hit points. Especially the addition of a "resource" that conflicts with hit points (I can already see a PC wondering how they can have full HP, but a broken back).

    I'll try to be clear: I'm not against using downtime for players to "heal up". What I'm against is a system that would allow one PC to recover from 1 hit point to 50 in a single day (via even a low level cleric) but telling another PC that all the magical healing in the world can't let you get out of bed for a week while a broken bone heals... unless they had 2500g or a level 7 Cleric. Such a system (in my mind) can't work unless you severely limit magical healing (i.e. "Cure Light Wounds" restores a single hit point).

    As for the choices, if there are two different paths with different outcomes (it's not one and the same what form a "punishment" takes"), then obviously player decision matters. That the choice can be between two evils is neither good or bad in itself.
    Assuming the PCs are unaware of any pressing need to accomplish a task quickly, and that there is nothing "pulling" them towards a particular action, then they've got two "equal" options:

    1) Play hurt. Potentially fail because PC resources are lacking.
    2) Rest up. Potentially fail because enemy resources have been bolstered.

    There is no risk/reward there. I have no doubt there might be some narrative consequence, but you haven't truly presented the PCs with a dilemma.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    The game already has multiple resources in it that limit what a character thinks they can do at any one time (hit points, spell slots, magic item uses, etc). I'm sorry, I don't really see how adding one more (temporary injury) would add something new to the system,
    Because the resources you mention all fully replenish after a night's rest, and this one doesn't.

    (hit points only replenish if your party has a competent healer, but in practice all parties do).
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Because the resources you mention all fully replenish after a night's rest, and this one doesn't.
    Right, but what's the tension?

    If they're on a strict time limit, they'll push on regardless of injury/hit points/spell slots available. If there is no time limit they're aware of (or if the injury is not severe enough that their other resources can't compensate), then they have little incentive to not wait until their resources are replenished (i.e. the 15 minute workday, simply with X days separating them). Declaring that the "world will move on without them" is fine, but again, that does not present the PCs with a dilemma.

    Without outright saying "if you clear the Cavern of Cadaverous Doom in 3 days instead of 4, you'll get bonus treasure", short-term injury has no realistic consequence on what a PC wants to do. Now, if the PCs had some in-game system that outright rewarded them for "fighting hurt" (e.g. "Honor Points")? That would present some tension (or if you rather, risk/reward).

    Alternatively, make all injury slow to recover from. This would force D&D to drastically reduce the amount of healing available, but one could imagine a system similar to 4e's where instead of receiving all of your healing surges back after an extended rest, you receive only one.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    Right, but what's the tension?
    There is in-character tension. There may be out-of-character tension if the players don't have perfect knowledge of what will happen and when, but the point is that there's IC tension. D&D is supposed to be an RPG, not a strategical battle game.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    D&D is supposed to be an RPG, not a strategical battle game.
    It's meant to be both. Long-lasting and meaningful injuries make for a great module exactly because they don't fit in every campaign.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    There is in-character tension. There may be out-of-character tension if the players don't have perfect knowledge of what will happen and when, but the point is that there's IC tension. D&D is supposed to be an RPG, not a strategical battle game.
    Yes... let's just ignore that whole wargame attitude that D&D is based on.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    Yes... let's just ignore that whole wargame attitude that D&D is based on.
    Precisely. It's good to acknowledge that the game has evolved in the past thirty-five years.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Precisely. It's good to acknowledge that the game has evolved in the past thirty-five years.
    Isn't the entire point of D&D Next attempting to ignore the evolution of the game? I'm not actually being sarcastic, here.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    Isn't the entire point of D&D Next attempting to ignore the evolution of the game? I'm not actually being sarcastic, here.
    Since Next contains quite a number of progressive design principles, no, it is not the point of Next to ignore the evolution of the game.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Since Next contains quite a number of progressive design principles, no, it is not the point of Next to ignore the evolution of the game.
    Exactly. Next brings D&D up to 1992 or so, whereas D&D 3.x was very much an early 1980's game. It was just published later.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Precisely. It's good to acknowledge that the game has evolved in the past thirty-five years.
    Evolution in & of itself is not a good thing. Look at a screwdriver. A rod with a specially designed tip for use of screws. Say someone decides to add a hammer head at the top of the screwdriver. This can be seen as an improvement because it makes the tool more versatile, but corrupts the original use of the tool. Now look at a drill, a drill does exactly what a screwdriver does only better.

    So if D&D wants to "return to core" like it says then it needs to do what it used to do but better.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    Evolution in & of itself is not a good thing. Look at a screwdriver. A rod with a specially designed tip for use of screws. Say someone decides to add a hammer head at the top of the screwdriver. This can be seen as an improvement because it makes the tool more versatile, but corrupts the original use of the tool. Now look at a drill, a drill does exactly what a screwdriver does only better.

    So if D&D wants to "return to core" like it says then it needs to do what it used to do but better.
    That's not evolution. A mutation like that would quickly either die out due to natural selection or develop into another species entirely. The latter case might be evolution, but then the two are incomparable. Your point that D&D could become so different as to not feel like D&D still stands.
    Also, a drill doesn't screw screws, it drills holes. A screwgun or electric screwdriver screws screws better than a screwdriver.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Anderlith View Post
    So if D&D wants to "return to core" like it says then it needs to do what it used to do but better.
    D&D doesn't want to return to core. It wants to incorporate all the successful parts from all earlier editions, but in particular those from 3E/PF and 4E since those factions cover 99% of the fanbase.

    I'm not saying this is possible but this does appear to be what WOTC wants.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    In D&D 4e, WotC tried to revolutionize, D&D, take all the problems people had with older editions and take them out of the game. They tried to make an entirely new fresh D&D. There were some good ideas there, but in throwing out all of the old, they left some good stuff behind.

    This time WotC is trying to look through all the old editions, look at what worked and didn't work in each edition, and try to make an edition that takes the best of all the old editions.

    5e will be a new edition, it's just that this time WotC is looking back as much as looking forward(and honestly, with modular design, they appear to be looking forward more as well).
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Has there been anything new and significant released about 5e since the playtest went out? We got our playtest stuff, then did some survey, and haven't heard anything since.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Has there been anything new and significant released about 5e since the playtest went out? We got our playtest stuff, then did some survey, and haven't heard anything since.
    Well, there were two surveys, but other then this, just the usual dev blogs, which of course is nothing concrete.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    The game already has multiple resources in it that limit what a character thinks they can do at any one time (hit points, spell slots, magic item uses, etc). I'm sorry, I don't really see how adding one more (temporary injury) would add something new to the system, especially when there's already a rough marker in place (however flawed) to represent how "hurt" a player is -- hit points. Especially the addition of a "resource" that conflicts with hit points (I can already see a PC wondering how they can have full HP, but a broken back).
    Having HP and injuries not be in conflict is simply a matter of redefining HP. Redifining HP also solves the problem with magical healing. This is a simple task. I can't see a player wondering about the thing you mentioned, because we can understand from real-life experience that it's different to be in "full health" with a chronic injury than without. We can also understand from real life that band-aid can't heal a severed limb - D&D healing spells have always been fairly specific of what they can cure (Cure Disease won't heal wounds, Cure Wounds won't heal Ability damage etc.), so this wouldn't be much of a deviation from D&D traditions. Injecting a bit of verisimilitude makes it trivial to explain, really.

    Also remember the posed injury system is supposed to (partially) replace character death. The point being that the way D&D has historically handled death (at least before 4th Ed.) had all the caveats of injuries, except it was even worse towards low-level characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    Assuming the PCs are unaware of any pressing need to accomplish a task quickly, and that there is nothing "pulling" them towards a particular action, then they've got two "equal" options:

    1) Play hurt. Potentially fail because PC resources are lacking.
    2) Rest up. Potentially fail because enemy resources have been bolstered.

    There is no risk/reward there. I have no doubt there might be some narrative consequence, but you haven't truly presented the PCs with a dilemma.

    ...

    What's the tension?

    If they're on a strict time limit, they'll push on regardless of injury/hit points/spell slots available. If there is no time limit they're aware of, then they have little incentive to not wait until their resources are replenished.
    Equal-but-different still is different. Options 1) and 2) lead to vastly different chains of in-game events. The dilemma is preference - which PCs want one over the other? Character or player motivations can create notable amounts of drama over the choice. A problem here is your a priori assumption that there will be no conflict between these.

    The underlined portion of your post is also wrong. If they are unaware
    of a time limit, then they need to guess whether there is one. This is, in itself, one potential source of tension and conflict, because if there is a limit, then option 1) is clearly better, but if there isn't, then option 2) is. I've had great fun watch my players argue and bake their noodles over this dilemma.

    If they are aware there's no time limit, then you are correct - they have no reason not to rest.

    But overall, your guestion "What's the tension?" can't be answered completely on a system level. It's a matter of scenario design - a job for the GM or adventure desginer to set the table so the choice creates meaningful and interesting deviations in the story path.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Has there been anything new and significant released about 5e since the playtest went out? We got our playtest stuff, then did some survey, and haven't heard anything since.
    Since the sorcerer warlock update there has not been. WotC has said they are looking to release a new playtest document sometime in October.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Hmmmm. So Im pleasantly surprised with the Next edition of DND (I think I got a better understanding of the game once I got the second packet).

    It simplifies 3es aspects but in a different way. Its pretty solid in my opinion.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    That's not evolution. A mutation like that would quickly either die out due to natural selection or develop into another species entirely. The latter case might be evolution, but then the two are incomparable. Your point that D&D could become so different as to not feel like D&D still stands.
    Also, a drill doesn't screw screws, it drills holes. A screwgun or electric screwdriver screws screws better than a screwdriver.
    True that a screw gun is better, and an impact driver the best tool I've found for driving screws, but a drill beats a screwdriver 9 times in 10.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grundy View Post
    True that a screw gun is better, and an impact driver the best tool I've found for driving screws, but a drill beats a screwdriver 9 times in 10.
    Spoilered because this is tangential now:
    Spoiler
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    No, a drill literally does not screw screws. A drill drills holes. Many electric drills double as screw guns, or vice versa, depending on which bit (and speed and torque settings) you use, but the function changes when you switch bits. If you try to screw in a screw with a drill, the screw will probably go flying and the drill will hit the hand that was holding it and you might need to go to the emergency room.
    A drill:
    Spoiler
    Show

    A small, cordless screw gun:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Note how the drill has a long bit with a thread cut out, designed for removing material. Note how the screw gun has a small bit with a crossed head, designed for slotting into a philip's head screw to tighten or loosen it.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Since the sorcerer warlock update there has not been. WotC has said they are looking to release a new playtest document sometime in October.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Spoilered because this is tangential now:
    [SPOILER]No, a drill literally does not screw screws. A drill drills holes. Many electric drills double as screw guns, or vice versa, depending on which bit (and speed and torque settings) you use, but the function changes when you switch bits. If you try to screw in a screw with a drillbit, the screw will probably go flying and the drill will hit the hand that was holding it and you might need to go to the emergency room.
    A drill with a drill but in the chuck:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Another drill with a Phillips driver bit in the chuck:
    Spoiler
    Show

    A screw gun:
    Spoiler
    Show
    [IMG]http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0012DOU0K/ref=aw_d_iv_hi?is=l
    an impact driver:
    Spoiler
    Show


    Note how thefirst drill has a long bit with a thread cut out, designed for removing material. Note how the other drill has a small bit with a crossed head, designed for slotting into a philip's head screw to tighten or loosen it.
    FTFY. Bold text mine :)

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    On-topic: New Legends & Lore column up. Basically, it seems to be saying that they're going to be writing descriptions of individual spells with a modular approach, so that the same spell list can be adapted to Vancian, Point-Based, AEDU, or other magic systems within each playgroup.

    Ambitious. But I approve, in theory -- this hopefully means a much smaller fraction of the Core rulebooks will be filled with just spell descriptions, which will tend towards making spellcasters less overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grundy View Post
    FTFY. Bold text Broken links mine :)
    Bold text mine.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Ambitious. But I approve, in theory -- this hopefully means a much smaller fraction of the Core rulebooks will be filled with just spell descriptions, which will tend towards making spellcasters less overpowered.
    I really like this. I'm not optimistic about them actually getting it to work, but if they do it will be of vast help to the system.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Ars Magica wizards usually gain power far faster by sitting in their lab studying than by adventuring so this can be done (the more recent editions may have changed this some).
    If anything it is more pronounced in the "new"edition (now eight years old).

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    On-topic: New Legends & Lore column up. Basically, it seems to be saying that they're going to be writing descriptions of individual spells with a modular approach, so that the same spell list can be adapted to Vancian, Point-Based, AEDU, or other magic systems within each playgroup.

    Ambitious. But I approve, in theory -- this hopefully means a much smaller fraction of the Core rulebooks will be filled with just spell descriptions, which will tend towards making spellcasters less overpowered.


    Bold text mine.
    Ha! Too true. I may know tools, but my forum skills are...subpar.

    EDIT:
    On topic, I don't reallly have a problem with vancian casting, or with spell points. They both have their merits, and most importantly, they have different effects on how I play a character. I like choices, so I hope they get that right.
    It doesn't solve the basic problem I have with 3.5 casting, though, which is that the spell power levels are all over the map, and are generally too strong. If they don't go through the spells with a fine-toothed comb, it won't matter how many cool systems they have for casting.
    Last edited by Grundy; 2012-10-01 at 08:39 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #1410
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grundy View Post
    Ha! Too true. I may know tools, but my forum skills are...subpar.

    EDIT:
    On topic, I don't reallly have a problem with vancian casting, or with spell points. They both have their merits, and most importantly, they have different effects on how I play a character. I like choices, so I hope they get that right.
    It doesn't solve the basic problem I have with 3.5 casting, though, which is that the spell power levels are all over the map, and are generally too strong. If they don't go through the spells with a fine-toothed comb, it won't matter how many cool systems they have for casting.
    The problem with 3.x spellcasting is actually several problems. Here is a short, non comprehensive list

    1) Spells got better as you leveled up, meaning your old abilities get more powerful as you also gain new more powerful abilities.
    2) Non spellcasters usually only had a few options, where as spellcasters had dozens of viable options.
    3) Individual spells were quite broken and rarely balanced well.
    4) Spellcasters, especially Arcane casters, were balanced by having a weak low level experience to justify a powerful late level experiance.
    5) Typically, a spell was as good or better than a mundane ability that did the same thing.
    6) A single spell often did several things or had an extremely long duration, meaning limited slots was not an issue.
    7) There was very little you could do to stop a spellcaster.
    8) Spells suffered from extreme power creep.

    All of these problems need to be addressed in 5e, and so far several of them have.
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