Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVI

[The Dark Fiddler]

That's what the Zinc Saucier competition is all about. Feel free to enter.

Mhm, I was actually thinking about the Zinc Saucier competition when I asked that. It doesn't have that... je ne sais quoi when it's the point.

[Venger]

Bleh. I got stuck trying to deal with the Spellthief SLA-recharge trick's level cap.

But these look interesting. I'm seeing the alignment knots people were talking about.

EDIT:
One of the build ideas I was juggling around was going to abuse Assume Supernatural Ability and that graft-demon to throw the Acolyte of the Skin's abilities on everybody; I imagine Fleshwarper would be used for the same kind of deal.

are you talking about fiendish codex I's sibriex? Assume supernatural ability doesn't work that way, you have to actually turn into the form whose Su ability you want. wear fiend doesn't make you a fiend, nor does fiendish symbiosis.

[eggs]

are you talking about fiendish codex I's sibriex? Assume supernatural ability doesn't work that way, you have to actually turn into the form whose Su ability you want. wear fiend doesn't make you a fiend, nor does fiendish symbiosis.

There were more shenanigans involved with polymorphing+AotS capstone, but enough ability score dependencies were strewn about that I had to scrap the idea pretty hard. (That happened a lot. )

[Venger]

I hate to be "that guy," but maybe I can save the judges some time by provoking a response.

Is it my imagination, or does Luc fail to explain where he got the evil subtype to qualify for fiend of corruption? Unless of course AotS was erratta'd to give the evil subtype with its fiendish apotheosis?

I ask because I really liked the build and I might want to use it in a future game.

So judges don't see till it's decided by the chairman

Spoiler

Show

I wouldn't say you're that guy. I believe he is confusing an evil alignment with the evil subtype. I am unable to find any errata to suggest that, and have never heard anything about that. After my initial readthrough of the build, I too see that he fails to qualify for FoC. I agree it's a shame, I enjoy the flavor and theme of his build and thought it was interesting, but he doesn't have the evil subtype.

[TroubleBrewing]

GAH. I so badly did NOT want to work tonight. Craptastic.

Well, having missed the deadline, I was working on a Beguiler 2/Human Paragon 3/Mindbender 1/Flayerspawn Psychic 4/AotS 10 design. All I needed was formatting and assembly, too.

Poo.

[OMG PONIES]

*Has anybody ever entered a build that didn't use a single level of the secret ingredient? I wonder if such a thing could somehow make a good showing, despite the obvious flaw...

Besides Zinc Saucier, we used Monk for one of the appetizer competitions (E6 only). One contestant awesomely submitted a build that got pretty much all of the monk's abilities without a single level in monk. Riled some feathers, but it was a darn fine showing.

[Amphetryon]

The inquiry regarding Luc's qualification has its answer right in Luc's entry. Clarifying:

In response to the following question:

I hate to be "that guy," but maybe I can save the judges some time by provoking a response.

Is it my imagination, or does Luc fail to explain where he got the evil subtype to qualify for fiend of corruption? Unless of course AotS was erratta'd to give the evil subtype with its fiendish apotheosis?

I ask because I really liked the build and I might want to use it in a future game.

The relevant passage can be found under "The Perks of Being an Acolyte of the Skin," underneath my comments on Fiendish Symbiosis:

Fiendish Symbiosis: Ah yes, becoming an outsider. We have DR/good, which seems like it goes without saying that we're evil outsiders now. However, ask your DM. If not, you can shell out the coin for the Ritual of Alignment found in Savage Species. Congratulations, your little gnome now qualifies for the delicious "Fiend of..." PrCs in the Fiend Folio!

I've clipped some of the text for the Ritual if needed:

This minor ritual gives the character an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) or changes an existing aligment subtype.

Hopefully this answers questions about how Luc picks up the [Evil] subtype. Sorry it was buried in the text of my build instead of including in an Adaptation/Notes section.

I would ask the judges and the contestant who responded to Kelb_Panthera's question take note before any rush to judgment.

[GreenSerpent]

Ehh... seems a little fishy to me.

Means that you're dependant on the Rituals being allowed (as in a practical game they're 3.0 material and so DMs might not allow them). Like some builds are dependant on a certain item, that one's reliant on a certain Ritual.

I mean, I love the build and all, but it just still seems a little... twisty.

*applauds anyway*

[Amphetryon]

And that makes four folks who may be competing and have gone on record with which build is/isn't likely to be their own.

Knock it off.

[OMG PONIES]

Never got time to submit my second build, which I'll leave until after the contestants are revealed due to its similarity to another entry.

[Kazyan]

Lots of imperious commanders, huh? I predict a collective smiting in Originality.

[Piggy Knowles]

Lots of imperious commanders, huh? I predict a collective smiting in Originality.

Depends on the judge, I guess. If I recall correctly, something like 50% of the builds in the Mindbender competition took Mindsight, and I don't think any of them got docked for it.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Lots of imperious commanders, huh? I predict a collective smiting in Originality.

That doesn't surprise me; Fiendish Glare is probably the best thing about the secret ingredient, and it meshes well with demoralization.

[Venger]

Depends on the judge, I guess. If I recall correctly, something like 50% of the builds in the Mindbender competition took Mindsight, and I don't think any of them got docked for it.

well hey, only 2 of the 17 entries in shadowdancer took darkstalker, and everyone who didn't have it was smote in the power by one judge.

so sometimes, it's just understood that you're supposed to take a feat, like mindbender and mindsight.

[Piggy Knowles]

well hey, only 2 of the 17 entries in shadowdancer took darkstalker, and everyone who didn't have it was smote in the power by one judge.

Ha, I remember it well - both of those two builds were mine ;)

[Piggy Knowles]

Fixing the reply glitch, and also, it's after the fact, but I did continue to toy around with the Thayan Slaver build that I couldn't quite get off the ground. Here is where it has more or less been left:

Human, Spellthief 5/AotS 10/Thayan Slaver 5

1- Martial Study (Devoted Spirit), Willing Deformity
3- Practiced Spellcaster (Spellthief)
6- Abominable Form
9- Snatch Trophy
12- Bloodsoaked Intimidate
15- Deformity (madness)
18- Master Spellthief

Fluff was going to be a slaver who is known for skinning and flaying those who displease him, and who one day skinned a barbazu and wore that skin as his own. He uses Snatch Trophy to steal bits of his opponent's skin as a trophy, and Bloodsoaked Intimidate to get off swift action demoralize attempts as much as possible (which, thanks to his Thayan Slaver levels, have the bonus of dealing Wisdom damage every time he wins the check by 10 or more).

Thus far, that's the best I could come up with... I also messed around with a half-orc version using Half-Orc Paragon, but it was tough fitting all the necessary components together, and ended up requiring a lot of dips to fit everything. It was theoretically a good bit stronger, but it would have gotten slammed in elegance (three one-level base class dips). And I had another version that involved familiars, with some cool tricks on that end, but it was too feat starved.

Oh well... my own fault for waiting until the last minute to start putting things on paper.

[Urpriest]

There were a few early qualifications, but I'm surprised nobody tried to qualify early with racial features. Genasi and Duergar can both manage it. Problem is, both get penalties to Charisma, so I couldn't think of anything to do with their builds beyond that (and the fluff of the Duergar being a wannabe Durzagon).

[Piggy Knowles]

There were a few early qualifications, but I'm surprised nobody tried to qualify early with racial features. Genasi and Duergar can both manage it. Problem is, both get penalties to Charisma, so I couldn't think of anything to do with their builds beyond that (and the fluff of the Duergar being a wannabe Durzagon).

Hmm... Could maybe do something with that, although the LA means that without LA buyoff (which almost always results in a small hit to Elegance in IC), you're not actually coming out ahead any even with the early entry. Still, could be fun to toy around with.

Since intimidating builds were common, maybe something with Dread Tyranny on a cleric base? That gives you Intimidate as a class skill and lets you add your Strength bonus to your Intimidate checks, making the Charisma penalties a little less painful. The Fiendish Glare's save would be a little lower, which is a shame since it would hurt that nice stun effect, but the 10 minute shaken would still kick in.

EDIT: Actually, thinking on it more, the Aventi from Stormwrack could do it without a Charisma penalty and without any LA, as could the Dream Dwarves from Races of Stone....

[Kazyan]

I considered entering using a Pixie with the SLAs somehow, but that eats up a lot of levels and was sure that someone would go "I wonder who that could be."

Yes, failed my save against the Illusion of Transparency.

[T.G. Oskar]

Just so you know that I deliver: 2 of the 10 builds (a whole 1/5th of the competition) has been judged.

And, as usual, the statistics thus far: using Word Starter, the document is already 9 pages, 5,719 words and a whopping 26,616 characters (without spaces). I did mention you guys to "expect a long read", and I'll be darned if I don't deliver!

Can't say much, though. I don't wish to keep you on the expectative, but after I complete 80% or so I can give a few details about the judging. If things go right (given that I have to work), I expect judging to be done in a week and a half. I wish to aim for, as a bare minimum, 5 days if I do 2 builds per day, but not even I'm that amazing!

[Venger]

EDIT: Actually, thinking on it more, the Aventi from Stormwrack could do it without a Charisma penalty and without any LA, as could the Dream Dwarves from Races of Stone....

in contests past, assuming LA buyoff usually means more than a small hit.

has anyone ever actually taken dread tyranny? it seems like it would be useful, but I've never really been able to make it fit.

aventi plus other tricks for early entry could get you in two levels early instead of one. that's a really good catch, plus you could fluff it as a selkie like thing since they wear skins as their shtick.

Ha, I remember it well - both of those two builds were mine ;)

congrats! good job on placing that time around.

[Piggy Knowles]

aventi plus other tricks for early entry could get you in two levels early instead of one. that's a really good catch, plus you could fluff it as a selkie like thing since they wear skins as their shtick.

That's good... You'd have to use something that boosts CL that also works on [Water] spells, but that's not hard. I don't know of any Illusion, Necro or Enchantment [Water] spells, so that nixes a couple of the tricks used in this particular IC, but Spell Thematics should still work. An aventi cleric with the Creation domain would have a CL of 5 on the Create Water spell, and I'm sure one of the reserve feats would also do the trick.

A dream dwarf cloistered cleric would also qualify by level three, without needing any other feats or anything. +1 to divination spells from being a dream dwarf, +1 for the Knowledge domain.

[Venger]

That's good... You'd have to use something that boosts CL that also works on [Water] spells, but that's not hard. I don't know of any Illusion, Necro or Enchantment [Water] spells, so that nixes a couple of the tricks used in this particular IC, but Spell Thematics should still work. An aventi cleric with the Creation domain would have a CL of 5 on the Create Water spell, and I'm sure one of the reserve feats would also do the trick.

A dream dwarf cloistered cleric would also qualify by level three, without needing any other feats or anything. +1 to divination spells from being a dream dwarf, +1 for the Knowledge domain.

right. the only reserve feat that boosts spells with the water descriptor is drowning glance, which requires being able to cast 4th level spells, which is not feasible at a level that you could enter acolyte early. a cleric also has a divine CL, not an arcane one, so you'd need to drag southern magician into the mix too. since that requires mulan, which an aventi can't simultaneously be, I think that cleric's out.

I'm less familiar with dream dwarves, that was a good catch. in order to prevent the schroedinger's cat paradox that CWar invented regarding prcs, you'd have to never be out of contact with the ground, like Antaeus. If you could find a god that gave you knowledge and oracle (cdiv) domains, or were able to boost your CL that'd overlap with divination spells and just the oracle domain, you wouldn't have this issue

[gbprime]

Interesting that only one build uses alternate caster progression. I'd have thought that would be the way to go with a 1/2 caster PrC.

I was working on a "Demon of the Forest" build combining Nentyar Hunter and Acolyte of the Skin. I was plugging the Kara Tur angle and had Knowledge Devotion and Shiba Protector powering it up in melee, but I couldn't quite finish it in time. Ah well.

Anyway, judging is underway. Results soon!

[gbprime]

a cleric also has a divine CL, not an arcane one, so you'd need to drag southern magician into the mix too. since that requires mulan, which an aventi can't simultaneously be, I think that cleric's out.

Acolyte of the Skin doesn't specify Arcane or Divine. Either works fine.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, since you're freely speaking of builds...as I mentioned, I didn't made a build for this one because it's not my plate, but you know what I missed seeing?

Nar Demonbinder. Really, the fluff just fits so nicely (though you'd get very late, 8th level at most, but you get 7 levels of the PrC), and the only thing you'd have lost would be the Baleful Energy capstone. Something like Binder 1/wizard or wu jen class 3/Anima Mage 4/Nar Demonbinder 2/AotS 10. That nets 8th level spells, manipulation of vestiges as a 5th level binder but using 4th level vestiges, a fiendish familiar and fiendish qualities.

How many of you guys thought of that? I'm terrible at spellcasters, but that idea dropped up recently and fits quite well: Binder 1, Improved Binding lets you bind 2nd level vestiges so one prereq is met, Intimidate and Knowledge (the planes) are class skills for the Binder, three levels in Wizard or Wu Jen nets you 2nd level spells (another prereq met), enough levels for Imp. Binding and a metamagic feat, so Anima Mage prereqs are met. From there, all you need is play with the cards so that you delay entry into Nar Demonbinder using 6th and 9th levels for Iron Will and Greater Spell Focus (conjuration), and finally dipping into Nar Demonbinder, saving all remaining levels for fulfillment of 8th level spells. I believe it could be done without using human, even.

But again, I thought of this right now, and it wasn't my plate. I'm still gunning for the other one. Still resting from judgment; I expect to finish one or two more tomorrow.

[Piggy Knowles]

right. the only reserve feat that boosts spells with the water descriptor is drowning glance, which requires being able to cast 4th level spells, which is not feasible at a level that you could enter acolyte early. a cleric also has a divine CL, not an arcane one, so you'd need to drag southern magician into the mix too. since that requires mulan, which an aventi can't simultaneously be, I think that cleric's out.

As gbprime pointed out, AotS doesn't specify arcane versus divine - any caster will do (including shadowcasters, warlocks, et al).

And I was thinking of the acid and cold-based Reserve feats, which IIRC can be taken by third level. There has to be some low level spell with both the [Acid] or [Cold] tag and the [Water] tag, right?*

*Purely conjecture, I don't have a specific spell in mind. I'm just spitballin', thinking of all the different ways an aventi could qualify for the prestige class by third level.

as I mentioned, I didn't made a build for this one because it's not my plate, but you know what I missed seeing?

Nar Demonbinder.

Like I mentioned above, I considered a Cloistered Cleric 5/AotS 10/Nar Demonbinder 5, for 8th-level arcane and 4th-level divine spells, but didn't really do much more than set up a build stub for it. Also, I was pretty sure SOMEONE else would think of it, since it seemed like such an obvious combination to me. I guessed wrong, though!

[OMG PONIES]

well hey, only 2 of the 17 entries in shadowdancer took darkstalker, and everyone who didn't have it was smote in the power by one judge.

so sometimes, it's just understood that you're supposed to take a feat, like mindbender and mindsight.

'Allo, poppet. 'Twas I!

Ha, I remember it well - both of those two builds were mine ;)

Erp, sorry about that.

Fluff was going to be a slaver who is known for skinning and flaying those who displease him, and who one day skinned a barbazu and wore that skin as his own. He uses Snatch Trophy to steal bits of his opponent's skin as a trophy, and Bloodsoaked Intimidate to get off swift action demoralize attempts as much as possible (which, thanks to his Thayan Slaver levels, have the bonus of dealing Wisdom damage every time he wins the check by 10 or more).

I stumbled across Snatch Trophy/Bloodsoaked Intimidate myself in Round XIX, as it coupled nicely with the Quick Draw required by the Secret Ingredient and the TWF it provided. Thayan Slaver is a great addition, however.

There were a few early qualifications, but I'm surprised nobody tried to qualify early with racial features. Genasi and Duergar can both manage it. Problem is, both get penalties to Charisma, so I couldn't think of anything to do with their builds beyond that (and the fluff of the Duergar being a wannabe Durzagon).

I thought about a few races that might be able to qualify without class levels, but I didn't want to waste the few additional caster levels this Ingredient gave. That caused me to look for monsters with innate spellcasting, but I didn't know any good low-level ones or whether PrCs could progress their casting.

Well, since you're freely speaking of builds...as I mentioned, I didn't made a build for this one because it's not my plate, but you know what I missed seeing?

Nar Demonbinder. Really, the fluff just fits so nicely (though you'd get very late, 8th level at most, but you get 7 levels of the PrC), and the only thing you'd have lost would be the Baleful Energy capstone. Something like Binder 1/wizard or wu jen class 3/Anima Mage 4/Nar Demonbinder 2/AotS 10. That nets 8th level spells, manipulation of vestiges as a 5th level binder but using 4th level vestiges, a fiendish familiar and fiendish qualities.

How many of you guys thought of that?

I thought I thought of that, but just now realized that Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) is different than Demonbinder (Drow of the Underdark). I was wondering what all the fuss was about, as Demonbinder didn't seem like the best PrC, so I dropped the idea. Whoops.

As gbprime pointed out, AotS doesn't specify arcane versus divine - any caster will do (including shadowcasters, warlocks, et al).

If you want to get really technical about it, you don't even have to use a casting class. According to the PHB, page 181: "A creature with no classes has a caster level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified." So any creature that just has 5+ HD and no class levels could qualify.

[Venger]

'Allo, poppet. 'Twas I!

of course it was. like I'd forget

I stumbled across Snatch Trophy/Bloodsoaked Intimidate myself in Round XIX, as it coupled nicely with the Quick Draw required by the Secret Ingredient and the TWF it provided. Thayan Slaver is a great addition, however.

I thought it was a killer combo back in dread pirate the way that one guy used it. I especially liked the bag of knives he carried around, dropping and drawing a new one as he'd move around the battlefield collecting left hands.

I thought I thought of that, but just now realized that Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) is different than Demonbinder (Drow of the Underdark). I was wondering what all the fuss was about, as Demonbinder didn't seem like the best PrC, so I dropped the idea. Whoops.

whatever you do, don't confuse nar demonbinder or demonbinder with tome of magic's fiendbinder.

If you want to get really technical about it, you don't even have to use a casting class. According to the PHB, page 181: "A creature with no classes has a caster level equal to its Hit Dice unless otherwise specified." So any creature that just has 5+ HD and no class levels could qualify.

I don't think that would go over too well with the judges

[Urpriest]

Hmm... Could maybe do something with that, although the LA means that without LA buyoff (which almost always results in a small hit to Elegance in IC), you're not actually coming out ahead any even with the early entry. Still, could be fun to toy around with.

You're still a level ahead, but yes, you're not getting the full 3rd level qualification that you can get with CL boosts.