Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVI

[Piggy Knowles]

Erp, sorry about that.

Sorry for what? My two builds were the only two that DID have Darkstalker, and it was a close enough round that the boost I got for it may have been what boosted my two builds into the top 3!

I stumbled across Snatch Trophy/Bloodsoaked Intimidate myself in Round XIX, as it coupled nicely with the Quick Draw required by the Secret Ingredient and the TWF it provided. Thayan Slaver is a great addition, however.

Just went back and perused Captain Four Fingers... that's a hell of a build! I always think Avenging Executioner needs more love.

[OMG PONIES]

I thought it was a killer combo back in dread pirate the way that one guy used it. I especially liked the bag of knives he carried around, dropping and drawing a new one as he'd move around the battlefield collecting left hands.

<--"that one guy" .

whatever you do, don't confuse nar demonbinder or demonbinder with tome of magic's fiendbinder.

Hey now, I actually liked the Fiendbinder. It's not the worst PrC you can pick, but it's far from the best, too.

I don't think that would go over too well with the judges

Eh, I tinkered with it hoping that the Originality boost could outweigh the Elegance hit. However, once I realized it would also mean a deduction in Use of the Secret Ingredient if I was judging it myself, the costs started to outweigh the rewards.

You're still a level ahead, but yes, you're not getting the full 3rd level qualification that you can get with CL boosts.

Yeah, CL boosts seem like the easiest way in. My second potential build used a human chassis with three class levels to enter the Secret Ingredient.

Sorry for what? My two builds were the only two that DID have Darkstalker, and it was a close enough round that the boost I got for it may have been what boosted my two builds into the top 3!

Whoops, I read that backwards. Good on you, then. Some things (like Imperious Command on a fear build or Mindsight on a telepathy build) are such obvious power grabs that they might as well be prerequisites, but on stealth builds Darkstalker is a prerequisite of the other sort: a feat tax that the build quickly becomes weak without.

Just went back and perused Captain Four Fingers... that's a hell of a build! I always think Avenging Executioner needs more love.

Aw shucks, thanks! When I found Avenging Executioner I knew that had to be the way I build it. The fluff is awesome, and the mechanics can make you very dangerous to everything that's not immune to fear. I've been dying to play him in a campaign, but the only pirate campaigns I can find are low-level, so he'd wind up being a strange bird: a DEX-based charger without his main tricks online.

[Venger]

<--"that one guy" .

lol. Good on you, I really enjoyed captain four-fingers. I think he would be a ton of fun in a nautical themed game.

Hey now, I actually liked the Fiendbinder. It's not the worst PrC you can pick, but it's far from the best, too.

I suppose it's not bad, but what really sort of rustles my jimmies is that it requires 10 in truespeak and doesn't advance truenaming. I know you obviously shouldn't enter it as a truenamer, but that just forces you to either take that one feat that gives you truespeak as a class skill forever, or dip factotum. also, since the truespeak DCs are so high, it seems to want you to play truenamer, but it doesn't advance utterances, and that really is disappointing, because ther are no classes at all in ToM (or anywhere, aside from uncanny trickster and legacy champion) that advance truenaming, and this one seems like it was supposed to but they forgot to make that true.

[vhfforever]

When I was working on my original idea, I started by trying to keep everything class-wise out of the same book and went NE Human Warlock 6 / Mindbender 7 /Acolyte 7 who Dominated and Eternal Charmed the original fiend into giving up its own skin, but as I was putting it all together it just didn't have the right 'feel' to me.

[OMG PONIES]

When I was working on my original idea, I started by trying to keep everything class-wise out of the same book and went NE Human Warlock 6 / Mindbender 7 /Acolyte 7 who Dominated and Eternal Charmed the original fiend into giving up its own skin, but as I was putting it all together it just didn't have the right 'feel' to me.

Lol that seems like a pretty sweet concept. Unfortunately, you'd have to do a lot of fancy footwork to avoid the hurt of all those lost caster levels.

[Draz74]

Interesting that only one build uses alternate caster progression. I'd have thought that would be the way to go with a 1/2 caster PrC.

Me too. For the five minutes that I spent trying to come up with an idea for this round of the competition, the only thing I thought of was using Factotum 5 or Warlock 5 to get the CL prereq, but then dipping an alternate caster progression PrC and advancing it with AotS.

[vhfforever]

Lol that seems like a pretty sweet concept. Unfortunately, you'd have to do a lot of fancy footwork to avoid the hurt of all those lost caster levels.

The other issue was that it ended up relying a lot more on Mindbender, and not Acolyte, and never picked up Dark Invocations or any of the PrC capstones.

[T.G. Oskar]

Time for an update, guys!

Four out of ten builds have been judged, and I'm seeing a tendency over here. I wish the next batch of builds breaks it.

I must say, I am quite satisfied with at least two builds. One more than the other, of course, but both are equally good. No, I don't know who made them, but I suspect they're vets in the competition: on the other hand, if they're newbs, optimization has some promise.

That said, here's the low-down on the size of the document:
Pages: 15
Words: 9,311
Characters (without spaces): 43,571 (close to the thread limit!)

[The Dark Fiddler]

That said, here's the low-down on the size of the document:
Pages: 15
Words: 9,311
Characters (without spaces): 43,571 (close to the thread limit!)

So, we're looking at roughly 37 and a half pages, nearly 23,000 words, and almost 109,000 characters (without spaces).

...wow.

I don't know whether to be excited or afraid.

[GreenSerpent]

On a side point, I actually enjoyed my first Iron Chef!

Seeing as I've got some spare time, I think I'm going to end up finding some obscure prestige class and practising Iron Chefing on it! Best get in some practise!

[Amphetryon]

On a side point, I actually enjoyed my first Iron Chef!

Seeing as I've got some spare time, I think I'm going to end up finding some obscure prestige class and practising Iron Chefing on it! Best get in some practise!

Next one won't be THAT obscure. . . .

[GreenSerpent]

I'm suddenly very worried... (please don't be Frenzied Berserker, please don't be Frenzied Berserker...)

*rummaging through books* I have a sudden urge to try out Iron Chefing a Black Flame Zealot.

[The Dark Fiddler]

On a side point, I actually enjoyed my first Iron Chef!

Seeing as I've got some spare time, I think I'm going to end up finding some obscure prestige class and practising Iron Chefing on it! Best get in some practise!

As did I. It was kinda tough to get right (and the formatting was a huge pain to mess with), but it was certainly enjoyable. I think I may be back for the next one, ingredient pending.

Next one won't be THAT obscure. . . .

Hmm... what're the requirements for ingredients? 10 level prestige classes on the so-so level of power?

[Menteith]

For some reason I have the terrified idea that he's thinking of either Dwarven Defender or Arcane Archer. Actually, both of those could be neat...."scribble scribble".

[Venger]

I'm suddenly very worried... (please don't be Frenzied Berserker, please don't be Frenzied Berserker...)

*rummaging through books* I have a sudden urge to try out Iron Chefing a Black Flame Zealot.

nah, frenzied berserker's actually really powerful.

As did I. It was kinda tough to get right (and the formatting was a huge pain to mess with), but it was certainly enjoyable. I think I may be back for the next one, ingredient pending.

Hmm... what're the requirements for ingredients? 10 level prestige classes on the so-so level of power?

10 levels and so-so on the power is about it. we've had a few that're more on the high side of average like assassin. "not that obscure" makes me afraid it's a core thing too. I really hope it's not duelist. That would make me sad.

[Menteith]

I'd actually love Duelist. It was the first PrC I ever took in 3.5. Duelist and I go way back .

[GreenSerpent]

A "really powerful" class isn't enough challenge!

*breaks out into Pokemon theme tune*

[Amphetryon]

I'd actually love Duelist. It was the first PrC I ever took in 3.5. Duelist and I go way back .

Won't be Duelist (this upcoming round).

[Venger]

Won't be Duelist (this upcoming round).

whew! that's a relief

[DemonRoach]

whew! that's a relief

But now you've put the idea out there, so sooner or later...

thought there'd be more than ten entries, I fear what may have transpired had the deadline been later...

[Akal Saris]

Glad to see that Ash'okk Lar used Thrall of Jubilex! One of my favorite odd little PrCs :)

I was planning to enter a character based on Sparky Sparky Boom Man from Avatar...

The build was Cleric 5/Ocular Adept 8/Acolyte of the Skin 7....The idea would be to optimize Ocular Spell, Acolyte's two eye-based attacks, and ocular adept to shoot off eye beams at opponents every round. Sadly, RL got in the way :(

[Venger]

But now you've put the idea out there, so sooner or later...

thought there'd be more than ten entries, I fear what may have transpired had the deadline been later...

yep, 10 in 8 days is pretty impressive. a couple of us had been wanting to do 2 builds.

I was ultimately put off by the dark fiddler and ponies's discussion of what they were going to do. ponies' comment about "using all the parts of the buffalo" made me think they were going to do what I was (initially) going to do.

since other people had discussed their hypotheticals (that weren't similar to the entered dishes) I figured I might as well do the same.

Spoiler

Show

I had figured I would go for a Buffalo Bill motif, but instead of woman skin, it would be succubus skin. He would pose as a demon hunter and when it came time to "dispose of the remains," he'd take his prize and stitch a suit out of her to be a beautiful lady like Ted Levine. I figured I'd call him something like Fiendish Frank, what the watch detectives call him, like the FBI called Gumb Buffalo Bill, but instead of skinning his humps, he'd be, well, you know.

I was going to go Ranger 5/ acolyte 10/ mortal hunter 5 in order to take advantage of the outsider type that the SI offers. mortal hunter is outsider only, and, like acolyte, is centered around wearing the skins of your enemies to gain power. Plus, as an outsider, you can legitimately from a mechanical and in-game perspective, look down on the mortal monsters and characters in the game.

[Draz74]

since other people had discussed their hypotheticals (that weren't similar to the entered dishes) I figured I might as well do the same.

Spoiler

Show

I had figured I would go for a Buffalo Bill motif, but instead of woman skin, it would be succubus skin. He would pose as a demon hunter and when it came time to "dispose of the remains," he'd take his prize and stitch a suit out of her to be a beautiful lady like Ted Levine. I figured I'd call him something like Fiendish Frank, what the watch detectives call him, like the FBI called Gumb Buffalo Bill, but instead of skinning his humps, he'd be, well, you know.

I was going to go Ranger 5/ acolyte 10/ mortal hunter 5 in order to take advantage of the outsider type that the SI offers. mortal hunter is outsider only, and, like acolyte, is centered around wearing the skins of your enemies to gain power. Plus, as an outsider, you can legitimately from a mechanical and in-game perspective, look down on the mortal monsters and characters in the game.

... Have you read The John Cleaver Trilogy?

[OMG PONIES]

I was ultimately put off by the dark fiddler and ponies's discussion of what they were going to do. ponies' comment about "using all the parts of the buffalo" made me think they were going to do what I was (initially) going to do.

No, no, your idea was way better (and creepier) than mine! If it ever seems like I'm being clever or making some kind of obscure pop culture reference, assume that it's entirely accidental .

[The Dark Fiddler]

I was ultimately put off by the dark fiddler and ponies's discussion of what they were going to do. ponies' comment about "using all the parts of the buffalo" made me think they were going to do what I was (initially) going to do.

I'm sorry, such an occurrence was never my intention.

For what it's worth, I like your idea very much. It's a shame you didn't enter it.

[Venger]

... Have you read The John Cleaver Trilogy?

No, I haven't heard of them, I'll have to check them out. Would you recommend them? Like I said, at least the basic chassis for the idea came from Ed Gein, the guy who every tv/movie serial killer (including "Silence of the Lambs"'s Buffalo Bill) is modeled off of

No, no, your idea was way better (and creepier) than mine! If it ever seems like I'm being clever or making some kind of obscure pop culture reference, assume that it's entirely accidental .

Well, that's awfully nice of you. I'm really having a devil of a time trying to figure out which one is yours this time around. I'm sure it'll make sense after the reveal. heehee, I'll keep that in mind. If it ever seems like I'm making some kind of obscure pop culture reference (can't really claim myself to be "clever" rather defeats the purpose) OTOH, assume it's intentional, especially in Iron Chef, All of my entries have been loosely based off of something:

Shadowdancer: Claire was Kraehe (Claire) from "Princess Tutu," Pumpkinhead was essentially supposed to be a tongue in cheek Mowgli type character

consecrated harrier: Shere Khan Singh was a mashup of Shere Khan from the jungle book and Khan Noonien Singh from Star Trek 2, with the destruction of the jungle standing in for the destruction of his planet.

initiate of pistis sophia: Shui Cho was Omi from xiaolin showdown, because when building a straight monk, that was the first place I reached for flavor, especially with all the water themed feats/ACFs I took

shadow sentinel: $ (or Sue as he was called) was basically an excuse to make as many references to johnny cash songs/lyrics as I could in the span of one backstory. I had intended for his character's name to be "$" as in cash, with that symbol being his Illumian sigil after his rebirth after moving to the plane of shadow. It was probably easily missed in the table, and his human name before his reincarnation as an illumian, Sue, stuck. This was fitting, given the source material, so I can't complain.

temple raider of olidammara: Ted was a mashup of several different Keanu Reeves characters, namely ted from bill and ted, johnny mnemonic, and of course neo. I think this was the one I was surprised most by how poorly I did with the numbers.

drow judicator: I honestly had RL come up when I was planning to write this. my initial intention with anansi had been to have him and a group of other drow escape from their mindflayer captors and to have him try to establish a separatist movement in the underdark, using the Judgement ability on the flayers for their slave-taking. Ultimately, I was unable to finish in time and had to settle for rewriting the 60s spider-man theme song. I still thought it was fun, but I could have done better with more time.

dragon disciple: this was another mashup, this time with Ivan Drago from Rocky 4 and Draco Malfoy from harry potter, so he had the over-the-top training montages from the film administered by his controlling overbearing father from the book. he's able to kill his opponent in the ring (in the form of wizard duel) by eating lightning and crapping thunder

death delver: this is the only character I've entered in Iron chef that's not based on anything. I got the name from Lovecraft's "reanimator" but it's all original content otherwise (with proper recognition to burlew for all the fine eberron material that served as the backdrop. I was especially proud with the end result.

mindbender also wasn't based on anything. I had a ton of fun with monty, but his backstory was probably too long. The only one longer I've seen is probably little starry eyes back from green star adept.

I'm sorry, such an occurrence was never my intention.

For what it's worth, I like your idea very much. It's a shame you didn't enter it.

Oh, that's okay, I just read too much into it. you and ponies worrying about the same idea, I figured it would be the most obvious (to me of course) entry fluffwise about skinning things and wearing the skin, which led me to buffalo bill. I'm sure it wasn't

that's very kind of you. I'm a little let down also, and had initially wanted to do 2 entries, bill and my other idea, but since we had a truncated cooking period, I just didn't have enough time to cook 2 dishes between having 8 days and having to move back for school, i had to choose one, I picked the one that I thought was less likely to be done by another chef, figuring that at least one of you was going to do bill, and maybe others too. unfortunately, I was wrong, and I am a little bummed, but that's the luck of the draw when playing this sort of prisoner's dilemma/psychological chicken thing every iron chef.

I kind of would like to stat him up and show him to people. If the judges aren't averse, I'd be happy to post him over the weekend. it'd give people something to look at until judgings are posted on thursday.

thanks for the encouragement, guys, I really appreciate it. best of luck to both of you.

[Draz74]

No, I haven't heard of them, I'll have to check them out. Would you recommend them?

Yeah, they're fun. Can't say much more about why your post reminded me of them without spoiling some plot twists, though.

[T.G. Oskar]

[...], I expect judging to be done in a week and a half. I wish to aim for, as a bare minimum, 5 days if I do 2 builds per day, but not even I'm that amazing!

Alright, so a week will expire next Sunday, and 6 builds have been finally judged. Unlike most people here, I will mention that there's some builds I don't like, others that I do, and others which are nice but could have been better. Those I don't like I won't give them the "well, at least I couldn't have done anything with it", because while I didn't, the fact that some effort led to the Nar Demonbinder build means it CAN be used cleverly. I don't want to sound rude, but I have to be frank; don't expect mercy from me.

On the other hand, those builds I like I'll definitely praise, because they're exemplary works. The tendency I was seeing has broken, something I can't mention until I deliver my full judgment, which I find it's good, but I noticed that Acolyte of the Skin, so far, works well with spellcasting classes that bring a lot of low-level spells with a lot of utility, instead of going for the high-level spells with a lot of power.

Now, for those I feel a bit disappointed with but are nonetheless good enough: I might sound harsh, but take note of what I mention. It's not advice on how to build for IC, but it's good advice on how to take the build and make it a bit better. There are very nice things within those builds that hold an inch of promise, and a bit of polish can make them great builds.

To my fortune, this will be a long weekend. I still have to work tomorrow (*grumble*) and I have some things to do Saturday night and all Sunday (sharing with my niece and running D&D for my pals, respectively), so I'll see what I can wring on those two days. That said, Monday is entirely free, so I expect at the very least a better update on when I can finish by early Monday. Worry not; the most I can take is a week and a half. It's just that making patches for Final Fantasy Tactics can be so addictive...

P.S.: Silly me, where are my manners!? Here's the rundown on the judgment so far...
Pages: 22
Words: 14,549
Characters (without spaces): 68,007 (hooray, a two-parter post!)

[T.G. Oskar]

8 judgments so far, so soon you'll see my results. That said, I promised I'd deliver some data after 8 judgings were done, and I'm a man of my word.

The tendency I saw finally repeated, so I must mention it as a cause of concern: Acolyte of the Skin is not meant for martial characters. There's at least three people who attempted it, and got bad results out of it. Those who got GOOD results, though, got good mileage out of their spellcasting.

Be forewarned: there's one of you guys so far who's just .5 points out of a perfect score. The build was amazing, and I take my hat off to whomever made it. There's another that delivered such an interesting trick that made me appreciate being a judge a bit more, as you get to learn a lot from it.

Oh, and there's three builds so far that got a 1 on Elegance. You'll feel that I delivered nothing more than vitriol for them, but I tried to hold my reins on the caustic stuff: politeness more than anything, but I saw that there were a few who somehow thought they could wing the arcane CL 5th requirement, getting a CL of 4th and 2nd respectively, another with a CL that doesn't exist (and I'm still breaking my head on how he qualified, though I have my suspicions), and another with a CL that doesn't exist either. I feel like I made a mistake or something, but the CL requirement is stringent enough. The one that I have my suspicions on still doesn't get off the hook that easily, tho.

Finally, the tally of content thus far. Will I break my earlier records of content? We shall see once I deliver:
Pages: 29
Words: 19,059
Characters (without spaces): 88,904

[DemonRoach]

Pages: 29
Words: 19,059
Characters (without spaces): 88,904

There going to be a summation at the beginning? Not that keen to read a whole essay you've repeatedly mention is liable to be vitriolic at various points