The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]

[Qwertystop]

I've got some free time tonight - I'll try fixing the tables.

[Adam1949]

Well, I fixed the first-page table at least.

Spoiler

Show

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Power Points	Powers Known	Max Power Level	Evolution Points
1st	+0	+2	+0	+2	Body of the Queen, Seeds of the Swarm	2	1	1	6
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+3	Infestation	5	2	1	8
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+3	-	9	3	1	11
4th	+3	+4	+1	+4	Adaption	14	4	2	15
5th	+3	+4	+1	+4	-	20	5	2	20
6th	+4	+5	+2	+5	Adaption	26	6	2	26
7th	+5	+5	+2	+5	Hive's Might	33	7	3	33
8th	+6/+1	+6	+2	+6	Adaption	41	8	3	41
9th	+6/+1	+6	+3	+6	Assimilation	50	8	3	50
10th	+7/+2	+7	+3	+7	Adaption	60	9	4	60
11th	+8/+3	+7	+3	+7	-	70	10	4	71
12th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Adaption	81	11	4	83
13th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Hives Might II	93	12	5	96
14th	+10/+5	+9	+4	+9	Adaption	106	13	5	110
15th	+11/+6/+1	+9	+5	+9	-	120	14	5	125
16th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	Adaption	134	15	6	141
17th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	-	149	16	6	158
18th	+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+11	Embrace of the Swarm, Adaption	165	16	6	176
19th	+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+11	-	182	17	7	195
20th	+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+12	Adaption	199	18	7	215

[Qwertystop]

Well, I fixed the first-page table at least.

Spoiler

Show

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Power Points	Powers Known	Max Power Level	Evolution Points
1st	+0	+2	+0	+2	Body of the Queen, Seeds of the Swarm	2	1	1	6
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+3	Infestation	5	2	1	8
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+3	-	9	3	1	11
4th	+3	+4	+1	+4	Adaption	14	4	2	15
5th	+3	+4	+1	+4	-	20	5	2	20
6th	+4	+5	+2	+5	Adaption	26	6	2	26
7th	+5	+5	+2	+5	Hive's Might	33	7	3	33
8th	+6/+1	+6	+2	+6	Adaption	41	8	3	41
9th	+6/+1	+6	+3	+6	Assimilation	50	8	3	50
10th	+7/+2	+7	+3	+7	Adaption	60	9	4	60
11th	+8/+3	+7	+3	+7	-	70	10	4	71
12th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Adaption	81	11	4	83
13th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Hives Might II	93	12	5	96
14th	+10/+5	+9	+4	+9	Adaption	106	13	5	110
15th	+11/+6/+1	+9	+5	+9	-	120	14	5	125
16th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	Adaption	134	15	6	141
17th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	-	149	16	6	158
18th	+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+11	Embrace of the Swarm, Adaption	165	16	6	176
19th	+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+11	-	182	17	7	195
20th	+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+12	Adaption	199	18	7	215

Better:

Spoiler: Improvement

Show

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Power Points	Powers Known	Max Power Level	Evolution Points
1st	+0	+2	+0	+2	Body of the Queen, Seeds of the Swarm	2	1	1	6
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+3	Infestation	5	2	1	8
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+3	-	9	3	1	11
4th	+3	+4	+1	+4	Adaption	14	4	2	15
5th	+3	+4	+1	+4	-	20	5	2	20
6th	+4	+5	+2	+5	Adaption	26	6	2	26
7th	+5	+5	+2	+5	Hive's Might	33	7	3	33
8th	+6/+1	+6	+2	+6	Adaption	41	8	3	41
9th	+6/+1	+6	+3	+6	Assimilation	50	8	3	50
10th	+7/+2	+7	+3	+7	Adaption	60	9	4	60
11th	+8/+3	+7	+3	+7	-	70	10	4	71
12th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Adaption	81	11	4	83
13th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Hives Might II	93	12	5	96
14th	+10/+5	+9	+4	+9	Adaption	106	13	5	110
15th	+11/+6/+1	+9	+5	+9	-	120	14	5	125
16th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	Adaption	134	15	6	141
17th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	-	149	16	6	158
18th	+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+11	Embrace of the Swarm, Adaption	165	16	6	176
19th	+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+11	-	182	17	7	195
20th	+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+12	Adaption	199	18	7	215

[AuraTwilight]

Ugh, someone needs to put up a tutorial or something; I wanna know how Qwerty made his table so pretty!

[toapat]

Ugh, someone needs to put up a tutorial or something; I wanna know how Qwerty made his table so pretty!

still not as pretty as the Pifro's blue/white one based on the class tables from the books, but the PIFBB setting for formatting compiles the BBC code, just without the frame or background. you just need to then steal the table bracket from Qwerty's post.

[Qwertystop]

Classes. "head" gives the top row, "alt1" gives the light-brown even-numbers, "alt2" gives the dark-brown odd-numbers (the old tables were just alt1 but I like the combination), "thick_outer_border_grid" draws in the gridlines with the thick outer border.

[Lix Lorn]

Whoooops. I updated all my other tables in all my other brew, and forgot those two. Fixed.

[toapat]

Classes. "head" gives the top row, "alt1" gives the light-brown even-numbers, "alt2" gives the dark-brown odd-numbers (the old tables were just alt1 but I like the combination), "thick_outer_border_grid" draws in the gridlines with the thick outer border.

The tables were always three colored, its just that now its more noticable since GitP is on a white field instead of a cream one, and Alt2 is a new, third shade replacing the original Alt1. Alt1 is the old Alt2 color

Whoooops. I updated all my other tables in all my other brew, and forgot those two. Fixed.

Steal the one from Qwerty up there, its even prettier

[TSGames]

Hello Playgrounders!

I'm not sure if anyone is using the pdf, but just in case: I changed the site structure the links to the existing pdf. The pdf can now be found here.

For easy copy/paste:

http://www.topsecretgames.net/pdfs-for-friends/the-swarm-arrives/

[Lix Lorn]

I have no idea what I'm going to do with this class. It's inherently abusable, and I'd liiike to fix that. But I don't know if it's actually fixable while keeping the fluff of the class.

...I have, however, decided that Sarah Kerrigan is gestalt, if not tristalt, and the class doesn't really need to have the psionics built in.

[qazzquimby]

What's is abusable? Farming creatures for massive armies?

[toapat]

I have no idea what I'm going to do with this class. It's inherently abusable, and I'd liiike to fix that. But I don't know if it's actually fixable while keeping the fluff of the class.

...I have, however, decided that Sarah Kerrigan is gestalt, if not tristalt, and the class doesn't really need to have the psionics built in.

the problem with modeling Kerrigan in 3.5 is her entire skillset is significantly too broad for anything less then a 6 class gestalt:

Shes an Infiltration Sniper (Targeteer and rogue)
She has training in blades and martial arts, although thats not depicted in game (Ranger, Unarmed Swordsage)
Shes a 20th level psion

and thats before infestation

[Silva Stormrage]

I have no idea what I'm going to do with this class. It's inherently abusable, and I'd liiike to fix that. But I don't know if it's actually fixable while keeping the fluff of the class.

...I have, however, decided that Sarah Kerrigan is gestalt, if not tristalt, and the class doesn't really need to have the psionics built in.

I recently ran a swarm lord in a high op campaign solo campaign that got to level 10. I will try to post a good commentary if you wanted to fix some of the more abusable aspects. It frankly is very similar to the problems high op necromancers have.

I also don't think that the psionics aspect is that unbalancing. The strongest aspect of the class is certainly the minions.

[Lix Lorn]

the problem with modeling Kerrigan in 3.5 is her entire skillset is significantly too broad for anything less then a 6 class gestalt:

Shes an Infiltration Sniper (Targeteer and rogue)
She has training in blades and martial arts, although thats not depicted in game (Ranger, Unarmed Swordsage)
Shes a 20th level psion

and thats before infestation

Pretty sure you could model her with just three classes, if they were good enough classes.
One for the ghost aspects of sneakiness and fightiness (Swordsage would function fine, especially if you added some homebrew ranged disciplines)
One for the psionics
And one for the Swarmness.

I recently ran a swarm lord in a high op campaign solo campaign that got to level 10. I will try to post a good commentary if you wanted to fix some of the more abusable aspects. It frankly is very similar to the problems high op necromancers have.

I also don't think that the psionics aspect is that unbalancing. The strongest aspect of the class is certainly the minions.

This would be helpful, thanks.

The minions should be the strongest part! My reasoning for removing psionics isn't that they're too strong so much as they're too much extra over what they need.

[Tacitus]

If you take out psionics, which could be argued either way, I'd suggest giving the Swarmlord something to do other than auto attack while minions do all the work. Trying to get something to actually do by means of her bonus evolution points is somewhat inefficient and doesn't give many options. Maybe give an ability here or there to boost, heal, or instantly move minions. Maybe based on invocations, maybe encounter uses, something.

[toapat]

One for the ghost aspects of sneakiness and fightiness (Swordsage would function fine, especially if you added some homebrew ranged disciplines)

the problem with translating Ghost training to DnD is that the non-psionic aspects of it are above and beyond what any single class has in 3.5. it covers Blades, unarmed, and multiple classes of firearms. they have training in the use of most of the equipment the Confederacy and Dominion used, and they have officer's training. Swordsage with Thunderbolts and White Raven wont cut it.

[JeminiZero]

Pretty sure you could model her with just three classes, if they were good enough classes.

Why, hello there!

the problem with translating Ghost training to DnD is that the non-psionic aspects of it are above and beyond what any single class has in 3.5.

I think the bigger issue (in terms of mechanics anyway) Starcraft equipment does not quite translate to D&D so cleanly. For example:

it covers Blades, unarmed, and multiple classes of firearms.

Most firearms would arguably be classed as a Martial Weapon in Starcraft-verse, since they are found all over the place, and used by virtually every human soldier/warrior, analagous to bows/swords in D&D. And even then, a case could be made that the smaller firearms could be classed as Simple Weapons (civilians/commoners can be proficient at them).

they have training in the use of most of the equipment the Confederacy and Dominion used

Again, all that equipment is normally operated by engineers/experts. Which means that arguably, in Starcraft-verse, its use probably requires nothing more than an appropriate skillcheck.

and they have officer's training.

But what does this officer's training mean mechanically? Do they project an aura which causes nearby men to fight better (marshal)? Are they able to talk better (skill ranks)? Or does it just mean they have higher rank to throw around (RP)?

[toapat]

Most firearms would arguably be classed as a Martial Weapon in Starcraft-verse, since they are found all over the place, and used by virtually every human soldier/warrior, analagous to bows/swords in D&D. And even then, a case could be made that the smaller firearms could be classed as Simple Weapons (civilians/commoners can be proficient at them).


Again, all that equipment is normally operated by engineers/experts. Which means that arguably, in Starcraft-verse, its use probably requires nothing more than an appropriate skillcheck.


But what does this officer's training mean mechanically? Do they project an aura which causes nearby men to fight better (marshal)? Are they able to talk better (skill ranks)? Or does it just mean they have higher rank to throw around (RP)?

1: Handwaving time, the firearms argument is easy to cover in DnD terms, basically just all crossbow and bow proficiencies other then Footbow. Sure its not direct correlation but thats not hard to cover, expecially since Targeteer 1 can grab both hand crossbows and great crossbows at first level. No, its Feats that matter

2: arguably No. Ghosts have the training necessary to pilot most of the spacecraft in the setting we see (UED Valkeries, Vikings, and Battlecrusers excluded, as UED valkeries are an intermediate class of ship between the Minotaur class battlecruiser and the Viking/Wraith fighters)

3: Ghosts are at least of the equivalent rank to Ensigns, they dont typically take direct command because they are Clandestine Field Operatives. They are still trained for basically every situation that could possibly show up.

[JeminiZero]

1: Handwaving time, the firearms argument is easy to cover in DnD terms, basically just all crossbow and bow proficiencies other then Footbow. Sure its not direct correlation but thats not hard to cover, expecially since Targeteer 1 can grab both hand crossbows and great crossbows at first level. No, its Feats that matter

I would argue that Starcraft firearms are probably mechanically closer to short/longbows, in the sense that you can crank out multiple shots per round even on the most basic versions of bows/firearms. But that is just me.

Anyway, as an alternative to feats, their skill with firearms could be emulated via ranged weapon martial disciplines.

2: arguably No. Ghosts have the training necessary to pilot most of the spacecraft in the setting we see (UED Valkeries, Vikings, and Battlecrusers excluded, as UED valkeries are an intermediate class of ship between the Minotaur class battlecruiser and the Viking/Wraith fighters)

This does not mean that piloting them requires more than a skill check. The D&D parallel are naval ships, which can all be piloted using profession: sailor checks.

3: Ghosts are at least of the equivalent rank to Ensigns, they dont typically take direct command because they are Clandestine Field Operatives. They are still trained for basically every situation that could possibly show up.

So, this officer training is mostly RP stuff then?

[Silva Stormrage]

This would be helpful, thanks.

The minions should be the strongest part! My reasoning for removing psionics isn't that they're too strong so much as they're too much extra over what they need.

Agreed the minions should be the strongest part but they can still be the strongest part without being overpowered.

Okay so my experience with the swarmlord. It was a solo campaign but I was allowed to run four characters. Swarmlord, Ebon Initiate (Theurge with Spirit Shaman), Ur Priest Theurge Glaive Lock and Wizard. Ebon Initiate was mostly minions with face and utility. The Glaive Lock was a DMM buffer and damage dealer and the wizard was into save or loses with ludicrous DC's. I mostly used the Swarmlord to fill in gaps in the party and also to deal additional damage. The campaign went from 5-10.

The main things I noticed that were problematic with the swarmlord were that it could boost AC to ludicrous amounts. Yes AC isn't that important but I think the +1 NA for one evolution point is incredibly cheap and combined with inertia armor and the adaptation that adds con to NA allowed for a ludicrous AC at low levels.

Swarmlings:
Also I found myself vary rarely using the base evolution points on improving the swarmlings. I found it was pretty much always more efficient to just use those points to purchase additional swarmlings.

Also the swarmlings can become far too powerful with certain combinations, the most notable I found was the combination of a humanoid swarmling with the martial expertise. There are a lot of really nice low level dips and low level maneuvers that combos really well. Yes it requires a decent amount of optimization but it honestly felt sometimes like I had 3-4 mini cohorts running around. ESPECIALLY once I ended up getting White Raven Tactic on all of them. It got kinda out of hand

Another problem selection is improved mettle. Improved Mettle is such a ludicrously powerful ability that it should not be purchasable. It essentially makes you immune to all save or dies. I would just remove it entirely.

As a side note I wasn't sure on this but can the inherent bonuses from swarmlings evolution points go beyond +5 to a stat? In this game I never attempted to go beyond +5 but I wasn't sure.
Frankly for swarmlings I would remove the ability to purchase more and just say that every few levels you get an extra one. Maybe one every six levels?

Assimilated/Infested/Etc
Infested are fine, it was incredibly hard to actually get any and when I could I often found that assimilated minions were simply better. But here is where there was a slight problem. The assimilated were far too easy to mass into a ludicrous army. At level 10 I ended up having (All Assimilated): A level 12 wizard, 2 Baralagulas (Demonic teleporting gorillas), A level 12 Abjuration Wizard, a level 12 Evocation Wizard, A level 12 Psion and a level 13 psion.

This was manly possible due to two things. One the hive node evolution point option is too freaking good. I would often spend all of my evolution points on that simply so that I could create a "Chain of Command" that allowed me to massively exceed my normal limit of control. Secondly, and this is admittedly not a problem with the swarm lord class but rather necromancy. But I would quite commonly kill an enemy, animate it as a bone creature or corpse creature or something similar and just hit it with debuffs until it auto failed the assimilation saves. After that domination to make the assimilated creature join "willingly" even if he maintained his individuality.

Suggestions for Assimilated/Embraced (Infested are fine)
Make it so that assimilated and embraced have a chance to break free if they resist and are strong enough. Something like creatures with a higher CR than 3/4 the Swarmlord's level get a will save at the start of each day or break free. This would keep the assimilated and minions from becoming stronger than the swarm lord itself and it makes sense.

In addition, make it so that joining the swarm can't be done under magical or forced duress. With magic it is too easy to make a subject "Willing" and it can lead to snowball issues with minions.

Also it might be a good suggestion to have two "control pools" one for infested and one for assimilated and embraced. 1 HD of an infested creature is simply not equal to 1 HD of an assimilated creature.

Psionics:
The psionics really were not a big roll of this character except for utility. The main psionic powers I used were Vigor + Share Pain, Psionic Dispel and Ego Whip. I took some other utility powers such as time hop but his psionics were often weak enough that they were mostly used for utility and I couldn't spam them like a full psion and often ran out of juice fairly quickly.



In conclusion, the biggest issues are with the assimilated minions. The psionics gave him something to do in combat (He wasn't especially good at melee he was more of an overseer type but still), but his minions were frankly vastly stronger than him. Which can be fine, but when you have 5 tier one casters at higher level then you under your control. Frankly something is a bit wrong


Hope this helps!

[toapat]

I would argue that Starcraft firearms are probably mechanically closer to short/longbows, in the sense that you can crank out multiple shots per round even on the most basic versions of bows/firearms. But that is just me.

Anyway, as an alternative to feats, their skill with firearms could be emulated via ranged weapon martial disciplines.


This does not mean that piloting them requires more than a skill check. The D&D parallel are naval ships, which can all be piloted using profession: sailor checks.


So, this officer training is mostly RP stuff then?

depends on the specific weapon, and hand crossbows are the ones that get the highest RoF in a round when it comes down to shots fired. The ranged disciplines dont really emulate or support Gunfu in the same way you need it to work though.

DnD doesnt have Starfighter or jumpcraft equivalents. you are claiming Profession: Sailor equates to Profession: Fighterpilot, except that Fighterpilots have to spend years training and they cannot master chess at the same time.

RP is incorrect. Martial is also because thats a battlefield commander. Ghosts are trained in actual operation planning. The reason Tosh is so dangerous to the dominion is because he knows how the dominion plans, the same reason Sarah was always with Mengsk upto Tarsonis for planning

The point remains that Kerrigan has no less then 5 classes before infestation. She also has something like 400 points in Know (Biochemistry)

[JeminiZero]

depends on the specific weapon, and hand crossbows are the ones that get the highest RoF in a round when it comes down to shots fired.

Its not just about RoF though. More generally, its about overall damage, and how easily you can achieve said damage. And it is generally easier to do with a bow than a crossbow.

The ranged disciplines dont really emulate or support Gunfu in the same way you need it to work though.

Well, then if its merely a problem of existing ranged disciplines not emulating the style well, then all that needs to be done is to homebrew one!

DnD doesnt have Starfighter or jumpcraft equivalents. you are claiming Profession: Sailor equates to Profession: Fighterpilot, except that Fighterpilots have to spend years training and they cannot master chess at the same time.

One could simply say that the years of dedicated training required, either means that the skill is simply hard to learn, or that the skill rank DCs required for reliable use are higher (e.g. Fighterpilots require 8 ranks / 5 levels in Expert to make the checks, on par with what a D&D ship captain should have, whereas the average sailor deckhand can get by with less than 4 ranks/ 1 level in Expert).

So a mid level (~5) ghost should likewise be able to achieve 8 ranks and pilot stuff around.

Ghosts are trained in actual operation planning. The reason Tosh is so dangerous to the dominion is because he knows how the dominion plans, the same reason Sarah was always with Mengsk upto Tarsonis for planning

Well, this sounds like it MIGHT be Knowledge-Dominion Planning to me.

I say MIGHT because familiarity with how a faction operates may not necessarily even require Knowledge skill ranks. Lets say that the prime minister of a nation defects to the enemy side during war. As the former prime minister, he knows many of the country's secrets. Does that necessarily mean he has ranks in Knowledge-National Secrets? Or is it merely an RP thing?

The point remains that Kerrigan has no less then 5 classes before infestation. She also has something like 400 points in Know (Biochemistry)

Well, I was talking about general ghost abilities, rather than Kerrigan. Specifically, this was the original post:

the problem with translating Ghost training to DnD is that the non-psionic aspects of it are above and beyond what any single class has in 3.5. it covers Blades, unarmed, and multiple classes of firearms. they have training in the use of most of the equipment the Confederacy and Dominion used, and they have officer's training. Swordsage with Thunderbolts and White Raven wont cut it.

Also, we cannot say that Ghost requires some ges/tristalt, until there is at least some reasonable sense of how Ghost abilities function mechanically. As I have been trying to point out, a lot of the stuff are skills (which any class can take, at least within a Starcraft-like setting). Only their Psionics, and general expertise with hand-to-hand/blades/guns/crossbows/bows might require specific class features.

[toapat]

Its not just about RoF though. More generally, its about overall damage, and how easily you can achieve said damage. And it is generally easier to do with a bow than a crossbow.


Well, then if its merely a problem of existing ranged disciplines not emulating the style well, then all that needs to be done is to homebrew one!


One could simply say that the years of dedicated training required, either means that the skill is simply hard to learn, or that the skill rank DCs required for reliable use are higher (e.g. Fighterpilots require 8 ranks / 5 levels in Expert to make the checks, on par with what a D&D ship captain should have, whereas the average sailor deckhand can get by with less than 4 ranks/ 1 level in Expert).

So a mid level (~5) ghost should likewise be able to achieve 8 ranks and pilot stuff around.


Well, this sounds like it MIGHT be Knowledge-Dominion Planning to me.

I say MIGHT because familiarity with how a faction operates may not necessarily even require Knowledge skill ranks. Lets say that the prime minister of a nation defects to the enemy side during war. As the former prime minister, he knows many of the country's secrets. Does that necessarily mean he has ranks in Knowledge-National Secrets? Or is it merely an RP thing?


Well, I was talking about general ghost abilities, rather than Kerrigan. Specifically, this was the original post:


Also, we cannot say that Ghost requires some ges/tristalt, until there is at least some reasonable sense of how Ghost abilities function mechanically. As I have been trying to point out, a lot of the stuff are skills (which any class can take, at least within a Starcraft-like setting). Only their Psionics, and general expertise with hand-to-hand/blades/guns/crossbows/bows might require specific class features.

1: I dunno, Instantaneous Vaporization with a hand crossbow is alot more damage then 420 with a bow. Kerrigan being dicked over because she ran out of rifle ammo is because Mengsk wanted her to die.

2: you assume that 10 maneuvers covers what ghosts can do. That means your ignorant of exactly how much training they have. and Nova also has the Psiblade focusing apperture on her right arm in the games.

3: have you seen A-10 simulator? that program requires you to download the user manual for the aircraft to turn the plane on. Let alone fly it. in DnD terms the equivalent skillcheck would be a ship that can only be crewed by one person and which took a DC150 skillcheck to operate. and you cant have a masterwork ship for the +2 bonus to sailor checks. If you do learn that game, it still doesnt make you able to pilot the aircraft because you dont have the physical training to be a pilot, or the experience of flying a real one. Just because a character in 3.5 can invest enough ranks into martial focus to use scripts, doesnt mean they understand how those actually work.

Fighter pilots have enough training that they can perform the launch proceedure without the manual and cheat sheets.

4: No, its not. If you think that leadership in the form which can be represented by skillchecks is the type ghosts have, you dont understand what i mean.

[JeminiZero]

2: you assume that 10 maneuvers covers what ghosts can do. That means your ignorant of exactly how much training they have.

Firstly, a single Martial Discipline can have more than 10 maneuvers. Many of the official ones in fact have MORE than one maneuver available at each level, for the lower levels at least.

Secondly even if you do decide to enforce some arbitrary 10 maneuvers-per-discipline rule, it merely changes the problem from homebrewing one custom Ghost discipline, to homebrewing several custom Ghost disciplines.

Thirdly, we are talking about the average Ghost here, not heroic units. People without PLOT armour, and who die quite quickly, when they are caught alone by a group of enemies with detector support.

and Nova also has the Psiblade focusing apperture on her right arm in the games.

Right. And? How does this connect with 10 maneuvers per discipline? (Also, Nova is not exactly the average ghost).

3: have you seen A-10 simulator? that program requires you to download the user manual for the aircraft to turn the plane on.

Yes it is complicated. But is it anymore complicated than, say disarming a magical trap? More on this later.

Let alone fly it. in DnD terms the equivalent skillcheck would be a ship that can only be crewed by one person and which took a DC150 skillcheck to operate.

But if the skill check DC was that high, then HOW is the actual NPC pilot flying the thing?

If you do learn that game, it still doesnt make you able to pilot the aircraft because you dont have the physical training to be a pilot

Assuming for the moment that physical training here refers to not passing out due to high G-force, that again is mechanically a fortitude save vs environmental hazard, made as part of flying the craft (just like you have to make balance checks against falling off the slippery deck of a D&D ship in a storm). Again, it not something that requires specific class features.

or the experience of flying a real one.

And again, the lack of experience can be summed up as having low skill ranks.

Allow me to use another D&D example: a rogue disarming a trap (potentially, maybe even a magic trap). Like the A-10 simulator, you can train like mad on the "training traps", until you get quite good at them (they have low DC for success), but still fumble when you encounter an actual symbol of death in a Lich's fortress (low skill ranks not enough for high DC traps).

Just because a character in 3.5 can invest enough ranks into martial focus to use scripts, doesnt mean they understand how those actually work.

You make it sound like pilots fundamentally understand how their planes work. They know how to pilot it, but that doesn't mean they fully comprehend the physics and engineering principles that go into building a starfighter. Again, D&D ship captains know how to handle D&D ships. That doesn't mean they know anything about building one.

Fighter pilots have enough training that they can perform the launch proceedure without the manual and cheat sheets.

And all that knowledge? Can be represented by skill ranks. Just like if you suddenly face dozens of different monsters, the Archivist can tell the specific weaknesses of each and every one, in the heat of combat, without referring to his masterwork encyclopedia.

4: No, its not. If you think that leadership in the form which can be represented by skillchecks is the type ghosts have, you dont understand what i mean.

Then what do you mean?

[toapat]

Firstly, a single Martial Discipline can have more than 10 maneuvers. Many of the official ones in fact have MORE than one maneuver available at each level, for the lower levels at least.

Secondly even if you do decide to enforce some arbitrary 10 maneuvers-per-discipline rule, it merely changes the problem from homebrewing one custom Ghost discipline, to homebrewing several custom Ghost disciplines.

Thirdly, we are talking about the average Ghost here, not heroic units. People without PLOT armour, and who die quite quickly, when they are caught alone by a group of enemies with detector support.


Right. And? How does this connect with 10 maneuvers per discipline? (Also, Nova is not exactly the average ghost).


Yes it is complicated. But is it anymore complicated than, say disarming a magical trap? More on this later.


But if the skill check DC was that high, then HOW is the actual NPC pilot flying the thing?


Assuming for the moment that physical training here refers to not passing out due to high G-force, that again is mechanically a fortitude save vs environmental hazard, made as part of flying the craft (just like you have to make balance checks against falling off the slippery deck of a D&D ship in a storm). Again, it not something that requires specific class features.


And again, the lack of experience can be summed up as having low skill ranks.

Allow me to use another D&D example: a rogue disarming a trap (potentially, maybe even a magic trap). Like the A-10 simulator, you can train like mad on the "training traps", until you get quite good at them (they have low DC for success), but still fumble when you encounter an actual symbol of death in a Lich's fortress (low skill ranks not enough for high DC traps).


You make it sound like pilots fundamentally understand how their planes work. They know how to pilot it, but that doesn't mean they fully comprehend the physics and engineering principles that go into building a starfighter. Again, D&D ship captains know how to handle D&D ships. That doesn't mean they know anything about building one.


And all that knowledge? Can be represented by skill ranks. Just like if you suddenly face dozens of different monsters, the Archivist can tell the specific weaknesses of each and every one, in the heat of combat, without referring to his masterwork encyclopedia.


Then what do you mean?

1: Martial Classes of the level you are suggesting will have about 10 known. the equivalent training of a ghost would equate to complete knowledge of Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, (something similar but different to White Raven), and Thunderbolts, and be able to use every maneuver and stance, at level 5 equivalent. And these are not the grandmasters, those are the ones who dont die on the first mission

The difference between Kerrigan/Blond Kerrigan and every other ghost is, They have actual Psion levels, as opposed to being just the psionic subrace human. Project Shadowblade was to alter the psionic potential of Academy canidates to equate to Kerrigan/Nova.

2: Class features can replace and do replace skill checks. Disarming traps can be performed when able to spend the 10 hours needed to take 20 on it to not set it off. You can only take 1 on untrained maneuvers with the spacecraft under duress.

3: Shipcaptains are not people who have to be trained from ideally the age of 5, while knowing the exact limits of the equipment they have.

4: when it comes down to it, a Ghost can operate as something Like a Marshal or Bard, but off of Int.

[qazzquimby]

Toapat, youre basically just describing an epic character build. Why not homebrew a T2ish class that does everything you want the ghost to do, and extending into epic levels?

[toapat]

Toapat, youre basically just describing an epic character build. Why not homebrew a T2ish class that does everything you want the ghost to do, and extending into epic levels?

because currently i want to make a DH inspired "Do Unto Evil" class, and a Lord of the Realm inspired by "O Thanagor"

Most of the ghost abilities and training can be covered by pre-existing material, such as Targeteer 4/Ranger 13/Scout 3 covering most of their abilities, unless you want to figure out how to make a Psionic equivalent Apocalypse from the Sky and Psionic Arcane Archer to replace 2 of those levels, allowing you to use the nuke. Needs: Farshot and Greater manyshot archer

then you would have to dig up some sort of initiator bard variant (this is where we grab Thunderbolts), and replace all mentions of Cha with Int.

then you have the third class which would be 9 Warblade (focusing on Diamond Mind)/10 Eternal Blade/1 Fightercraft pilot

the 4th gestalt is only if you cant get enough feats between those.

then you have Psion 20

[JeminiZero]

1: Martial Classes of the level you are suggesting will have about 10 known.

I only suggested that level (~5), in relation to being similiar to what level *I* think an NPC expert pilot should be, and therefore with similiar max skill ranks. But more on this later.

2: Class features can replace and do replace skill checks.

Of course they can. Healing magic in general makes heal skill checks redundant. The wizard with invisibility from a spell (one of his class features), can use that to completely obviate the need for a hide check, etc. This is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is whether such replacement is necessary, for a mundane NPC pilot flying a spaceship.

3: Shipcaptains are not people who have to be trained from ideally the age of 5, while knowing the exact limits of the equipment they have.

I'm not saying that learning to pilot a starship is easy. But to the extent that it is difficult, what I am saying is that difficulty can be represented by skill checks of sufficiently high DC.

If you think piloting a starship is more difficult than the 8 skill ranks (and ability/equipment bonus) a level 5 D&D ship captain expert can bring to bear. Thats fine. Make it a level 7 expert with 10 skill ranks. Still not enough? Level 10 expert with 13 skill ranks. etc.

All I am saying, is that it only needs sufficient skill, and that whatever level of expert you think is required, a similiar level Ghost can bring along similiar skill.

You can only take 1 on untrained maneuvers with the spacecraft under duress.

At this point, we can only agree to disagree. I say that all it requires is an appropriate skill check (similiar to D&D sailing, d20 Modern pilot skill, or the M&M3e vehicles skill). You seem to be saying that it requires some special 'ship-flying' class feature or equivalent, that only a:

1 Fightercraft pilot

can use. And neither of us can convince the other.

Toapat, youre basically just describing an epic character build. Why not homebrew a T2ish class that does everything you want the ghost to do, and extending into epic levels?

I must agree with qazzquimby here. The way you describe them, the average ghost should be able to get in a 1-on-1 MELEE fight with a Tarrasque Ultralisk, and win.

[toapat]

I must agree with qazzquimby here. The way you describe them, the average ghost should be able to get in a 1-on-1 MELEE fight with a Tarrasque Ultralisk, and win.

Piloting: We arent talking about D20 modern or a system built for starfighting, we are talking about DnD. the equivalent Skillcheck is non-achievable pre-epic in this system

except for a few factors:

1: The ultralisk is the size of the tarrasque
2: Find the highest muscle density in nature. Now quadruple it.
3: Make that muscle the size of an elephant
4: Anchor that muscle to a foundation of pure rage
5: Attach the other end of the muscle to a sickle 20' long and with a mono-fillament diamond cutting edge.
6: Tell me when that muscle stops pulling the blade through steel.

also, the Ultralisk's skin is 3 feet thick, with extreme regeneration even before Abathur integrated highly radioactive thorium into their DNA to let them get back up.

Translating the zerg fully into DnD accurately is even worse.

besides that, Ghosts are the in universe equivalent to supersoldiers.

[Malcador]

besides that, Ghosts are the in universe equivalent to supersoldiers.

So are most player characters.