The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]

[vasharanpaladin]

I feel the need to point out that I'm feeling a lot less Tyranid in this than the thread title implies.

[Lix Lorn]

I feel the need to point out that I'm feeling a lot less Tyranid in this than the thread title implies.

I reckons you could make anything in the tyranid codex with the swarmling rules.

[Hellfire014]

I love the look of this class. But, there's something missing...

Swarming: Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.

There it is! Its not the Zerg if you don't have 16 zerglings for every marine.

A Swarmlord has two natural attacks. These can be claws, stings, slams, tentacles, or any form of natural attack.

Attacks: The Infested has two natural attacks, generally of the same kind as the Swarmlord that created them.

Does this include ranged natural attacks, like from a Totemist's Manticore belt? (yay hydras)

[Lix Lorn]

I love the look of this class. But, there's something missing...

There it is! Its not the Zerg if you don't have 16 zerglings for every marine.

That's what Infested are for!
Sadly, having a horde is both incredibly slowing for the game and reeeaaaally hard to balance.

Does this include ranged natural attacks, like from a Totemist's Manticore belt? (yay hydras)

Only if you pay for it. xD

[Lady Serpentine]

Assimilating a Swarmlord also effectively renders any of their swarm part of your own swarm. However, a Swarmlord with the Assimilate ability is immune to the Assimilate ability, unless she chooses to be subject to it.

An Embraced may trade in one character level or HD for a level of Swarmlord instantly, but its Swarm is always considered part of the Swarm that created it.

So... What happens if an Embraced who becomes a Swarmlord Assimilates the Swarmlord who Embraced them?

[Lix Lorn]

So... What happens if an Embraced who becomes a Swarmlord Assimilates the Swarmlord who Embraced them?

The universe implodes.
Also, you can't. Assimilate gives you immunity to Assimilate.

[Lady Serpentine]

The universe implodes.
Also, you can't. Assimilate gives you immunity to Assimilate.

Unless one chooses to be subject to it, that is.

So, you become a Swarmlord, and, as you mentioned earlier, everything starts to go pear-shaped, so you Embrace your close friend/lover/family member.

Since they're still themselves, you still trust them, and allow them (once they're high enough level to have the ability) to Assimilate you, during which they automatically grant the will save (at least, I seem to remember that being possible).

[Lix Lorn]

Huh. Well.

Can I stick with the explosion answer?

[vasharanpaladin]

I reckons you could make anything in the tyranid codex with the swarmling rules.

Except for the Swarmlord.

[Lix Lorn]

Except for the Swarmlord.

That too, if you wanted, but the Embraced template on some giant monster would work easier.

[Lady Serpentine]

Huh. Well.

Can I stick with the explosion answer?

Since it's your race/class, I'd imagine so, yes.

[Lix Lorn]

Ehe. Well, It'd depend on the context.

[Lady Serpentine]

Ehe. Well, It'd depend on the context.

What do you mean?

(Sorry if this come off badly. I just don't know if you're saying it depends on the circumstances it takes place under at the time, or what the players' intentions are, or something else entirely.)

[Lix Lorn]

Both. xD
If a Swarmlord Assimilates a defeated rival who bought her into the world, she would become victorious.

If a Swarmlord Assimilates her progenitor because the con bonus would stop her from dying... well.

[Lady Serpentine]

Makes sense.

Presumably one could also end up with the two having equal control of the Swarm, should they have a sufficiently awesome plan?

[Lix Lorn]

Indeed, but if they had an argument it'd snap one way or the other.

[Lady Serpentine]

:evilgrin:

It sounds like it should work, then. Thanks for the clarification!

[Network]

Didn't a certain Atticus Carpenter took control of the cerebrate that infested him?

Taking control of the master swarm would be cool, at least.

''No, I didn't intend to control your swarm. Sorry, it is mine now.''

[Mystic Muse]

The discussion appears to be taking a direction I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm out. See you around, Lix.

[Lady Serpentine]

The discussion appears to be taking a direction I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm out. See you around, Lix.

If my questions had anything to do with that, my apologies; it certainly wasn't my intent to make anyone uncomfortable.

[Lix Lorn]

Didn't a certain Atticus Carpenter took control of the cerebrate that infested him?

Taking control of the master swarm would be cool, at least.

''No, I didn't intend to control your swarm. Sorry, it is mine now.''

I wouldn't know, I was very young when I played the original game, and I really sucked at it.
I considered including ways to wrest control from other swarms, but... it seemed a rather vicious potential nerf.

The discussion appears to be taking a direction I'm uncomfortable with, so I'm out. See you around, Lix.

No probs. Thanks for hanging out so long.

If my questions had anything to do with that, my apologies; it certainly wasn't my intent to make anyone uncomfortable.

She has a thing about mind control. I had to write the feat just for her to get her to look at the class. So don't feel bad?

[Network]

I wouldn't know, I was very young when I played the original game, and I really sucked at it.

It isn't in the original game, but in an expansion pack, StarCraft : Insurrection. It was produced by Aztech New Media, but Blizzard made it canon.

[Lady Serpentine]

I wouldn't know, I was very young when I played the original game, and I really sucked at it.
I considered including ways to wrest control from other swarms, but... it seemed a rather vicious potential nerf.

I'm not sure if there's already something in there about this (it's a rather large class with all of the evolutions, and I may have missed something), or if there would be reasons it would never come up (such as the Swarm dying on the Swarmlord's death) but a way to take control of a Swarm where the Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control it might be a good compromise.

Perhaps something like this:

Spoiler

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Rite of Succession
Prerequisites: At least four levels in Swarmlord, Distant Manifestation evolution.
Benefit: When within Hive Mind range of members of a Swarm whose Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control their Swarm, the Swarmlord may cause them to make a will save, with the DC based on her Charisma. Infested make this save with no bonuses, while Assimilated and Embraced may apply modifiers as normal. Failure causes them to join her Swarm, while success means that they are unaffected.

Any Infected or Assimilated brought into the Swarm in this manner who have retained their free will must make a save as though they were being Infected or Assimilated again, with the same effects. The Swarmlord may act as though she has the Gentle Queen feat in such cases, irregardless of her actual possession of it. However, she cannot apply it retroactively, whether or not she has it; if they failed the save originally, or were unable to make it, they remain as they are.

She may also choose to turn over control of them to one of her Embraced, so long as they have at least one level of Swarmlord, in which case they will be added to or become the Embraced's Swarm, with effects as above.

Finally, she may choose one of her Embraced who began as or have chosen to become Swarmlords in their own right as a successor, in which case they will automatically assume control of her Swarm on her death or incapacitation.

?

She has a thing about mind control. I had to write the feat just for her to get her to look at the class. So don't feel bad?

Ah, okay. Good to know it wasn't entirely me.

[Lix Lorn]

I'm not sure if there's already something in there about this (it's a rather large class with all of the evolutions, and I may have missed something), or if there would be reasons it would never come up (such as the Swarm dying on the Swarmlord's death) but a way to take control of a Swarm where the Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control it might be a good compromise.

Perhaps something like this:

Spoiler

Show

Rite of Succession
Prerequisites: At least four levels in Swarmlord, Distant Manifestation evolution.
Benefit: When within Hive Mind range of members of a Swarm whose Swarmlord is dead or otherwise unable to control their Swarm, the Swarmlord may cause them to make a will save, with the DC based on her Charisma. Infested make this save with no bonuses, while Assimilated and Embraced may apply modifiers as normal. Failure causes them to join her Swarm, while success means that they are unaffected.

Any Infected or Assimilated brought into the Swarm in this manner who have retained their free will must make a save as though they were being Infected or Assimilated again, with the same effects. The Swarmlord may act as though she has the Gentle Queen feat in such cases, irregardless of her actual possession of it. However, she cannot apply it retroactively, whether or not she has it; if they failed the save originally, or were unable to make it, they remain as they are.

She may also choose to turn over control of them to one of her Embraced, so long as they have at least one level of Swarmlord, in which case they will be added to or become the Embraced's Swarm, with effects as above.

Finally, she may choose one of her Embraced who began as or have chosen to become Swarmlords in their own right as a successor, in which case they will automatically assume control of her Swarm on her death or incapacitation.

Oooh, that's an excellent idea. Do you think it works better as a feat, or as an evolution?

[Lady Serpentine]

Oooh, that's an excellent idea. Do you think it works better as a feat, or as an evolution?

Thanks! And an evolution might be more thematically appropriate, but it prevents one from taking it quite as early (the soonest would be level six, instead of being able to take it at level four if you choose Distant Manifestation as your first Evolution (assuming the feats work for that, which I don't have time to check now), so I'm not sure, nor do I really have time to think more about it at the moment, since I have to run now.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, you don't actually get a feat between level 4 and 6, so you'd have to take it at 6 anyway xD

[Network]

I return with more comments. After reading the abilities, I found a couple of weird mechanics and game-breaking abilities. Here are a compilation of those I found :

Infested Template
[...]
Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 10. These mental ability scores are fixed mental traits, and are not gained by Infested that pass their will save on creation. As clarification, these new ability scores represent the fact that the original self is effectively dead. Resurrection magic treats it as if their body was completely destroyed. (if the Infested body is slain, it can be used for resurrection again.)

This can, potentially, increase the mental ability scores. Since it's probably not intended, you may add ''These mental ability scores are a cap ; if the base creature has lower ability scores, they doesn't increase''.

Evolutions-specific comments :

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Infestation Queen
Taking this ability enhances the numberless minions of the swarm. All Infested creatures possessed by her swarm at the time she takes this ability gain an additional HD. This ability may be taken more than once.

As written, this doesn't affect the HD of creatures gained after the ability is selected. You also forgot to mention what kind of HD (Magical beast? Aberration?), not mentioning it improves non-mindless servants, which is something the DM and/or other PC may not like.

Lord Above
This ability greatly increases the size of the Swarmlord. She increases by one size category, [...].

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Size Increase evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Overpowered ; this is one of the few evolutions that greatly improve the swarmlord, and it also increase her minions.

Ironscales
She gains [...] Resist equal to half [her Con. modifier].
Resist functions as a combination of Damage Resistance and Energy Resistance. [...]

Same problem. If you removed Resist, the Ironscale evolution would (probably) be balanced.

Sky Swarm
This ability grants a Swarmlord great wings, or some other means of aerial propulsion. She gains a flight speed of 30ft (Average), +10ft for each five levels she possesses, and increasing in manoeuvrability by one stage for each ten levels she possesses. [...]

I'm not sure why it evolve with level. An ability that increase by level must be intended for use in an indefinitely high level of play. After an indefinite amount of time, an epic swarmlord can exceed the speed of light. Also, there is no manoeuvrability after ''perfect''. You don't have to be high-epic to have a better manoeuvrability than perfect. Sky Swarm is one of the few evolution that improves with level (there should be none).

Weapons of the Queen
This ability grants vastly improved weapons to the Queen. She may gain an additional natural weapon for each five levels she possesses, and she may grant an enhancement bonus to each of her weapons equal to a third of her class level. Points of enhancement bonus may be traded for special abilities, and the enhancement bonus may not surpass 5.

Taking this ability gives each Swarmling she possesses up to two free points in the Additional/Enhanced Natural Weapon evolution, which don’t count towards their cap.

Then again, same problem. No evolution should improve with level. Especially not something that grant more attacks. I mean, a 200th level swarmlord has 42 natural weapons? For a single evolution?

About the swarmling : what is the formula for evolution points? At some levels, the swarmling gains 3, at others it gains 13, with apparently no real formula.

Mind Over Matter
For five points, the Swarmling suffers -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, but gains +7 Int, +2 Wis.

Why is it +7 Int? Why not +6 or +8?

This will be my last comment for today ; I'm going to read the enhancements. May I suggest one that grant a permanent Detect Psionics effect?

[The_Final_Stand]

Maths Correction: There is an iterative formula to determine the number of EP a Swarmling gets at a certain level. Someone better at maths and/or not sleepy could probably simplify it.

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F(N) = F(N-1) + 2(Ceiling{[N-2]/2}) + 1
F(0) = 5
Where Ceiling(X) means "Round X in the positive direction" and the fancy brackets are to make reading easier.

Or, in English, at hypothetical level 0 (Iterative formulas always start at 0. If you want, imagine F(1) = 6 instead), you have 5 EP. At each odd level, gain that level in EP. At each even level, gain that number of EP - 1.

Oh, and incidentally, Lix, the unholy 3.5m psychic snake thing that is the Zoanthrope is not what I would describe as "Small".

And now I have in my head a theoretical "Norm Queen" Epic Prestige class that controls massive organisms and massive swarms at the expense of personal combat/psychic might and oh gods I'm thinking this in depth about homebrew for a game I don't even play and an army I don't play either.

[Volthawk]

Then again, same problem. No evolution should improve with level. Especially not something that grant more attacks. I mean, a 200th level swarmlord has 42 natural weapons? For a single evolution?

You play at level 200? At that point, 42 natural weapons are the least of your worries. The game breaks down a long, long time before that.

[Network]

You play at level 200? At that point, 42 natural weapons are the least of your worries. The game breaks down a long, long time before that.

What, you never did?

There are two classes that can hypothetically do the same thing. Although the DM may put a limit in the number of attacks without cancelling the class all together (namely, the evolutionist and ozodrin).