The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]

[Erik Vale]

Thanks. This will work well...

Damn, I think I am overly lacking in feat slots for the game I'm playing... I'ma need lots of flaws.

Hmm. Swarmlords getting lots of interest now...

Q: Would you like me to work on templates gained as levels, or are you working on that at the moment? (You mentioned thinking about it)

[Lix Lorn]

For Enhanced Ability, do reductions count against your total spending toward the cap on that evolution?

For example: If a level 10 swarmlord wants to increase a swarmling's Strength and constitution by 6 (12 points total) and decrease Charisma by 4 (gain 2 points back), would the bonus points keep that sort of spending within the limit of 10 points?

Hmmm. Let's go with Yes.

Thanks. This will work well...

Damn, I think I am overly lacking in feat slots for the game I'm playing... I'ma need lots of flaws.

Hmm. Swarmlords getting lots of interest now...

Q: Would you like me to work on templates gained as levels, or are you working on that at the moment? (You mentioned thinking about it)

I like doing stuff myself. But thanks!

[Andrian Talehot]

Just reading though the class again (I'm using it in a campaign now and loving it) and I think that I quite like the sound of templates (providing that they are LA free) but I would also like to bring up another possibility. I can't help but think as I am rereading the class that I would love to be able to do some of the things that my swarming is capable of and thought that maybe rather then giving the swarm lord a template you could give us evolution points that we could spend on the swarm lord. (not sure how easy that would be to balance but I personally really like the idea of spending points that I gain though levels on my abilities rather then reaching a mile stone of a sorts and making a choice about what upgrade that I am going to choose out of the current 17 possible upgrades.) You can just ignore my idea if you want but I just see it as a bit of a smoother way of evolving/adapting. (part of the reason for this idea was poison because I noticed that while your swarmlings and others can get poison there is nothing that will let you do that and while you can grow in size you can't shrink, you can't gain a burrow speed and you can't gain fast healing) ... I know that a lot of that can be hard to balance and understand if you don't want to but these are just my personal thoughts having played my first session today XD. Anyway I hope that you consider my idea.

[Lix Lorn]

That's an entirely valid point! The easiest way would be to use Infestation on yourself. But I do intend to add a way to get Evolution points for the Swarmlord themself, I'm just not yet sure what.

[Erik Vale]

Two ways currently:
Be an infested/assimilated. Use abduction/abdictation on self :P.
Get high enough level and use embraced template.

[Andrian Talehot]

I didn't consider infested/assimilate. However should you do that then you end up with that horrible thing that we know as LA *shudders*(really really hates LA). Secondly I'm not quite sure how that second one works (just don't really understand how that gives you points both in the rules sense and flavour sense)

[Lix Lorn]

Two ways currently:
Be an infested/assimilated. Use abduction/abdictation on self :P.
Get high enough level and use embraced template.

I... don't see what you mean with the first one.

I didn't consider infested/assimilate. However should you do that then you end up with that horrible thing that we know as LA *shudders*(really really hates LA). Secondly I'm not quite sure how that second one works (just don't really understand how that gives you points both in the rules sense and flavour sense)

Ahhh. Well, I just added two feats for it, so LA is no longer the only option.

[Erik Vale]

I'll look at those feats.

As for the 1st method I mentioned, Have a swarm lord infest/assimilate you and take control of you.
Have some means to regain control.
Use Abduction ability of Abduction and Abdictation on yourself, assigning yourself as your controller. This grants you your own mind back and has you the template.
Or you could say a swarm lord with gentle queen did it to you originally.

[Lix Lorn]

...or you could just use the ability on yourself. xD

[Morph Bark]

If the Swarmlord is a race, I'm guessing there are no starting stats beyond what this class gains at first level, and the class cannot be taken by other races?

[Erik Vale]

Lix, I already asked if a swarm lord could self infest/assimilate/embrace, and only Embrace was usable on self. I'll find the quote later.

@ Morph
No, it's races as normal. It's just a flavour thing Lix put in... Which might be worth changing (Even if just brackets to clarify that you can take this class as normal)

[Lix Lorn]

If the Swarmlord is a race, I'm guessing there are no starting stats beyond what this class gains at first level, and the class cannot be taken by other races?

Lix, I already asked if a swarm lord could self infest/assimilate/embrace, and only Embrace was usable on self. I'll find the quote later.

@ Morph
No, it's races as normal. It's just a flavour thing Lix put in... Which might be worth changing (Even if just brackets to clarify that you can take this class as normal)

...huh. I don't remember why I decided that. That seems silly now.

Yeah, the race thing has come up twice. Edited it. That was always meant to be a fluff line.

[Silva Stormrage]

A question for the embraced template and the swapping of HD to swarmlord levels. If you embrace say a great wyrm dragon could he swap all of his HD to swarmlord levels even if he has more than 20 HD? What exactly would happen? Just continue progression? You might want to clarify what happens in this situation.

Also as a side note that would be an absolutely terrifying creature if a player did that to a dragon I think that dragon could just start slaughtering everything in his wake.

[Erik Vale]

Well yea, it doesn't have to listen to the Swarmlord.

Thats why you infest a dragon instead, also, think what would happen if a Dragon swapped all it's hit dice for Swarmlord levels. It would suddenly become a baby dragon.
I would like to think DM's would limit the amount of swapping. Also, I think there is a 1 HD/CL limit.

Editted to be true.

[Lix Lorn]

A question for the embraced template and the swapping of HD to swarmlord levels. If you embrace say a great wyrm dragon could he swap all of his HD to swarmlord levels even if he has more than 20 HD? What exactly would happen? Just continue progression? You might want to clarify what happens in this situation.

Also as a side note that would be an absolutely terrifying creature if a player did that to a dragon I think that dragon could just start slaughtering everything in his wake.

I will probably write an epic progression up, as soon as I need one. However...

Well yea, it doesn't have to listen to the Swarmlord.

Thats why you infest a dragon instead, also, think what would happen if a Dragon swapped all it's hit dice for Swarmlord levels. It would suddenly become a baby dragon.
I would like to think DM's would limit the amount of swapping. Also, I think there is a 1 HD/CL limit.

Editted to be true.

There is a 1 HD limit.

[Aldurin]

Epic Progression would be nice to know, I'm using this class for an epic-level game and so far all I know is that going epic keeps stacking level-dependent stuff like evolution points and the beefiness of your swarmlings.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, it'd just continue advancing things at the same rate. Have a couple of bonus feat options.

[Durazno]

Would a dragon who traded a bunch of its dragon hd for Swarmlord levels become sickly and emaciated-looking, then? I mean, since the the Swarmlord has smaller dice.

[Lix Lorn]

If it could, which it can't, then yes, and it would also drop age categories.

[Erik Vale]

You know have a funny mental picture of a dragon that stupidly wished all it's HD for Swarmlord class levels, becoming a sickly baby...
Or inelligently having cast genises and then going to a pre-prepped plane so it grew up, and repeating several times for unlimited levels...

[Aldurin]

Thing is if a dragon is going swarmlord and is replacing his HD with swarmlord levels, there is no reason for him to not use evolution points to artificially increase to his maximum possible size. That way you get baby dragons as huge as elder ones and horribly infected in ways so that it looks terribly off. Then it looks ridiculous when he flaps like a hummingbird because he enhanced his flight to perfect control.

[Lix Lorn]

xD
This is awesome and dumb.

[Erik Vale]

Ok, posting proposed templates to be gained through the class. The delay hasn't so much been 'Uhh, long hard work to get perfect', so much been time. These a are little ruff and are probab(definite)ly in need of editing.
Also, PM to insure your still around.

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Templates for Swarmlord:

Good Levels- 7th , 13th, 20th

Template 1 Based on Infestation
Template 2 Based on Assimilation
Template 3 Based on Embrace

Template 1: Heart of the Swarm

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Size and Type: Swarmlords who achieve this template maintain the same size and type they would otherwise have.

Hit Dice: As Swarmlord Class

Speed: No Change

Armor Class: +1 natural armour.

Attacks: All the natural attacks of the swarmlord count as being from a creature 1 size category larger.

Special Qualities: Swarmlords gain a permanent +1 untyped bonus to will saves.

Abilities: +2 Con, +2 Cha [A Swarmord becomes a hive for the power of the swarm, lending it a stronger force of personality. The body also hardens, partially to contain this power, partially in a inbuilt desire to protect ‘the queen’]

Feats: Swarmlords gain no additional feats.

LA: +0

Special: Should the Swarmlord become infested, the Swarmlord gains +1 Armour Class, +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, the type change of an infested, the evolution points of an infested instead of normal, and three automatic points in hive node, this is instead of the normal modifications due to being infested. Should they fail their will save and the infestor not have the gentle queen feat, the normal infested template is applied with the mindless stats.
Also, should the Swarmlord become infested, she is subject to no additional level adjustment from the template.
Both the Embraced and Assimilated templates apply the normal statistical bonuses. However the LA of either template is reduced by 1.

Template 2: Princess of the Swarm

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Size and Type: Swarmlords who achieve this template maintain the same size and type they would otherwise have.

Hit Dice: As Swarmlord Class

Speed: No Change

Armor Class: +3 natural armour.

Attacks: All the natural attacks of the swarmlord count as being from a creature 1 size category larger.

Special Qualities: Swarmlords gain a permanent +2 untyped bonus to will saves.
Further, the range at which creatures with the hive mind rule are controlled by the Swarmlord increases to 15 feet/level. Also, creatures with the hive mind rule gain a +3 bonus to will saves instead of a +2 bonus should they be within this range. (This range bonus and bonus to will saves doesn’t extend to with/affected by the Hive Node evolution)

Abilities: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Int, +4 Cha [The Swarmlord manages to use some of it’s learning’s to self improve it’s body and mind, meanwhile the power of the swarm further manifests within the Swarmlord.]

Feats: Swarmlords gain the Queen Follows Subjects Understanding feat. Should the Swarmlord already have this feat, they may choose another of any feat normally available to them


LA: +0

Special: This template supersedes and replaces both the infested and Heart of the Swarm templates. However, it will not replace the loss of mental stats caused by infestation should this template be gained, not that it should be possible to continue progressing in levels of Swarmlord.
Should the Swarmlord become assimilated, the Swarmlord gains and additional +2 Armour Class, +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, the type change of an embraced, the evolution points of an embraced instead of normal, this is instead of the normal modifications due to being embraced. In addition, should the Swarmlord become embraced, it gains no additional level adjustment.
Should the Swarmlord become a Assimilated and be under the control of another Swarmlord, it has 3 free ranks in the Hive Node evolution.
The Embraced template supercedes this template, and all statistical bonuses of this template, however the Swarmlord still gains the free ranks in hide node should she be controlled by another swarmlord. Also, the LA of the Embraced template is reduced by 3.

Template 3: Queen of the Swarm

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Size and Type: Swarmlords who gain this template undergo the type changes of a creature affected by the swarmlord template.

Hit Dice: As Swarmlord Class

Speed: No Change

Armor Class: +5 natural armour.

Attacks: All the natural attacks of the swarmlord count as being from a creature 2 size categories larger. In addition, the swarmlord can choose to gain either +2 natural attacks of any type, or can instead choose for their natural attacks to count as being from a creature 3 size catagories larger.

Special Qualities: Swarmlords gain a permanent +3 untyped bonus to will saves.
Further, the range at which creatures with the hive mind rule are controlled by the Swarmlord increases to 20 feet/level. Also, creatures with the hive mind rule gain a +4 bonus to will saves instead of a +2 bonus should they be within this range.
The Hive Node evolution now grants a control range of 15 feet/number of points in the Hive Node evolution.

Abilities: +4 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Wis, +4 Int, +6 Cha [The Swarmlord uses it’s learning’s to self improve it’s body and mind, meanwhile the power of the swarm further manifests within the Swarmlord.]

Feats: Swarmlords gain the Like Mother, Like Daughter feat. Should the Swarmlord already have this feat, they may choose another of any feat normally available to them. In addition, the Swarmlord gains the Rapid Evolution feat.


LA: +0

Special: This template supersedes and replaces both the assimilated and Princess of the Swarm templates. Should the Swarmlord become assimilated, the Swarmlord replaced the Queen of the Swarm template with the Embraced template, and gains all the normal statistical benefits of a Embraced creature, with the exception that it does NOT gain two additional attacks, and retains the bonus feats and special qualities of the ‘Queen of the Swarm’ template. A Swarmlord gaining the Embraced template only gains +1 Level adjustment

[Lix Lorn]

That's some pretty interesting stuff! I probably won't use it exactly as you have it, but I think I can use it.

[Turalisj]

Wonder if you could do up an adaption for Pathfinder. Most of the DMs I know have pretty much stopped running 3.5.

[Lix Lorn]

I don't really play PF... I expect not much would change.

[Erik Vale]

As far as I know, that would just be grouping the skills and dropping two skill points. Which should be pretty easy. As for changing abilities, the DM can nerd at will, and I don't think this class really needs to get more powerful. [Ignores notes that I gave her ideas for templates considering they were already being kicked around]

[Lix Lorn]

Hmm. I'm sort of having second thoughts about the templates.

Reasoning;
The Swarmlord already has Adaptions and potentially Evolutions. Their physical changes really ought to be covered.
To this end, I'm considering making 'Swarmlord can use Evolution points' a base class feature, and describing the physical changes that are expected to happen (or at least specifying that they do) as levels progress.

[Erik Vale]

Thats fine. However, balls still need kicking as to a capstone, and you have a empty ACF list.

[Lix Lorn]

True on the capstone! THe ACF being empty doesn't bug me that much, as the class is very, very adaptable as is.