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    Default Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PEACH)

    TL/DR / Summery below second table.

    Long ago there was a tribe of necromantic shadow-worshipers, who due to their various practices and religious beliefs, found that the positive energy commonly used for the sake of healing no longer affected them, they were completely immune to even the most powerful of healing spells available at the time. With little other choice, the people of the tribe turned to the magic they had been mastering their entire lives, Necromancy, for the sake of healing.

    Thus the dawn of the Shadowlimb, While still rather rare, the people of the tribe where frail and inbred, falling off a tree could cause major damage to one's arm or leg, something they were incapable of healing even with their best doctors. And while true creation of the undead was still beyond them the tribe had the power to resurrect specific bodyparts and connect them to the owner's brain. Using this, repairing or reattaching a broken or severed arm was as simple as securing the arm back on, and bringing the arm back to life as a sort of proto-undead, full control of the arm was then given to it's owner with a mental link, and it could move about as if nothing had happened, with no pain.

    Just as their are many bodyparts in the body, their are many different kinds of shadowlimb, and of coarse, some things that can absolutely not be brought back as a shadowlimb.

    {table=head]Type | Example | Bonus | Penalty
    Minor | Fingers, toes, nose, ear, other small extremities | retain use of minor bodypart. | -0.5 per shadowlimb to relevant skill checks
    Major Minor | Thumb, big toe, hand, foot. other small-ish but important bits. | Undead effect, retain use of major minor bodypart | -4 to relevant skill checks per major minor shadowlimb
    Major | Arm, forearm, joint, leg, thigh, wings, Other large body parts. | Retain use of major body part. undead effect, +2 to Str or Dex. | -2 to Con, -6 on related skill checks, -2 Dex or Str depending on +2 bonus given.
    Organ | Lung, liver, kidney, large intestines, heart, any organ that has a backup or performs a simple job. | Retain use of Organ | -2 on fortitude saves against poison or disease, -2 Con
    Impossible | Brain, stomach, head, neck, other body parts that cause instant death upon destruction or perform a complicated job. | N/A | N/A
    [/table]



    Forms of Shadowlimb:

    Minor Shadowlimb:

    Examples: Fingers, toes, noses, ears, and other small extremities.
    Benefits: Minor shadowlimbs are often small and weak, so the most one will get in terms of a benefit for a shadowlimb will be the ability to continue using the bodypart.
    Penalties: While small, Minor bodyparts are often very important for every day life, such as fingers, toes, and earlobes. As such, given their now stiff and mostly-numb state, minor limbs provide a -0.5 penalty on skill checks involving that bodypart. To put it simply, if you posses one undead finger, you can still make use rope checks without any real penalty. but if you posses two or more undead fingers, you will suffer at least a -1 penalty to use rope checks and other checks which require fingers to perform. Other body parts, such as ears and noses, would provide penalties to listen and scent checks respectively.

    Major Minor Shadowlimb:

    Examples: Hands, feet, thumbs, big-toes, and other small-ish but largely important bodyparts.
    Benifits: Ability to use bodypart again, and an Undead Effect
    Penalties: -4 to all relevant skill checks per bodypart. Includes swimming for both hands and feet, searching for hands, moving silently for feet, ETC.


    Major Shadowlimb:

    Examples: Arm, forearm, leg, thigh, knee, elbow, wings, other large body parts.
    Benefits: Ability to use limb again, an undead effect, and either +2 Str or Dex, either owner's choice or randomly determined by D2 roll.
    Penalties: -2 Con, -6 on related skill checks per major shadowlimb. -2 on either Str or Dex, depending on what the player chose for the bonus. If the player chose +2 Str, they also gain -2 Dex, and vice-versa.



    Organ Shadowlimb:

    Examples: Lung, liver, kidney, large intestines, heart, any organ that has a backup or performs a simple job.
    Benefits: Retain use of organ.
    Penalties: -2 to fortitude saves against poison or disease, -2 Con


    Undead effect:

    Many undead have unarmed touch attacks such as paralysing touch and chill touch, similarly many undead limbs also have a possibility of gaining one after their creation. These effects are usually harmful however, so undead arms or legs are usually kept covered with gloves or other forms of clothing to provide protection to both the bearer and those they know.

    Major-minor and Major Shadowlimbs have a possibility of being created with some form of necromantic touch attack at creation as a spell-like ability. At creation of a shadowlimb, a player must roll on the following table to determine which, if any undead effect their limb is created with. These effects are unique to that specific shadowlimb and are useable as many times per day as indicated on the table.

    If a shadowlimb is removed from the body, it can be re-attached and still function normally. if a major-minor body part containing a minor shadowlimb (ex: hand with a shadow finger) is turned into a shadowlimb, the two are considered a single entity under the higher classification. Only by going up a classification on the minor-major scale can a shadowlimb effectively be considered a new shadowlimb and thus demand a new roll, removing any abilities and bonuses it may have had prior.


    {table=head] Roll D% | Undead Effect | times per day
    1|DeathWard *| 1 Per 3 days
    2-20 | None | N/A
    21-23 | Touch of Fatiuge | 3 Per day
    24-35 | None | N/A
    36-39 | Chill Touch | 3 Per day
    40-45 | None | N/A
    46-48 | DeathKneel | 1 Per day
    49-50 | None |N/A
    51-53 | Inflict Light Wounds | 3 Per Day
    53-60 | None |N/A
    61-62 | Darkness | 2 Per day
    63-75 | None | N/A
    76-77 | Vampiric Touch | 1 Per day
    78-83 | None |N/A
    83-84 | Blight | 2 Per day
    84-90 | None | N/A
    91-92 | Ghoul Touch | 3 Per Day
    93-99 | None | N/A
    100 | Energy Drain *| 1 per 3 days
    [/table]

    *Death Ward and Energy Drain May only be claimed on a Major Shadowlimb only, and bestow One permanent negative level onto the owner for as long as the Shadowlimb exists. Should Death ward or Energy drain be rolled for a major-minor shadowlimb, the player must reroll until a different selection is made. You may only have one of either of these two abilities. if you roll the other while creating a new shadowlimb, that limb instead gets nothing.


    Creating a shadowlimb

    While the original tribe who perfected this art lived in a different time with a different econimy, and even then often performed this ritual for free for their fellow tribesmen, in the modern age the price is as follows.

    One extremity, limb, or organ of matching size category to the to-be owner.

    (If Limb is the original of the to-be owner): 10,000 gold, 5000 Experience points, Cleric of 10th level or better.

    (If limb is not the original of the to-be owner): 20,000 gold, 10,000 experience points, Cleric of 10th level or better with the Death domain.

    (If Limb is of a different race/subrace of the to-be owner, even if once belonging to to the to-be owner): 40,000 gold, 30,000 Experience points, Cleric of 15th level or better with the death domain.


    Sorry about the fluff, i wrote that after everything else mostly just to explain everything here, basically it's a part of your body that is brought back as an undead, and hooked up to your brain so you have full control of it. With things such as the heart, they are naturally hooked up to your brain in a way that makes you not need to consciously think about it. Any thoughts/opinions/suggestions? I realize i probably need to create a spell or something used to create one of these things, but i dont know how to do that so if anyone can help me with that it would be great.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2012-08-20 at 02:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    1. What are the costs involved in creating a shadowlimb?
    2. Can you just cut off a shadowlimb and keep creating new ones to get a spell-like ability you want?

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    1. A severed limb or extremity, other then that i have no idea.

    2. Probably not, should probably make a note somewhere that it either needs to be the origional limb of it's owner, or you only get one shot.

    Eidt: And either you just skimmed it or geez you read quickly!
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2012-08-19 at 01:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Hmm... Okay, I can see this being pretty cool, but, couldn't you make a negative version of Regeneration? Like doing a Graft, but a whole limb, organ, etc... The shadow version would be cool, fluff wise, but the checks seem to make a limb graft/negative regen a bit more viable.
    Not that I don't like your idea. You did a great job on it.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    1. A severed limb or extremity, other then that i have no idea.
    You should look at the rules for grafts, particularly undead grafts, over in Libris Mortis. You're covering similar ground. I think the grafts in that book are overpriced by a fair amount, but I also think that having no cost other than losing your limb is not enough - not when you have a better than 50-50 shot at getting powerful spell-like abilities.

    Also, you should really organize your chart. Have a big fat block of "nothing" at the bottom, then increase power linearly as you roll higher. Also, energy drain does not belong on that list, and death ward probably doesn't either; those are far too powerful. You need to specify a caster level; caster level = HD is pretty standard. Also also, why Touch of Idiocy. That's Enchantment; it doesn't seem to fit.

    On a more general level, I'm not a big fan of randomized power on a permanent (or semi-permanent) basis, though. Players can feel cheated when they look at a chart with awesome effects and they get something lame (or nothing at all). Players can feel doubly cheated when they get something lame - and then another guy in the party gets something really cool. It's acceptable on a short term basis, but when you're talking about replacing a limb, it's too much.

    However! There is room to do what you want to do, if you want to randomize power. Instead of making those abilities uses per day, make those uses be once. Not per anything. That way you can even have some powerful stuff - but once the player uses the ability, he's back with just an undead body part. That could work.

    2. Probably not, should probably make a note somewhere that it either needs to be the origional limb of it's owner, or you only get one shot.
    You need to be careful about the wording here. I could slice my arm of slightly higher than I did last time, and then bam! It's not really the same limb anymore is it? If you're too overzealous about preventing that, though, then you risk preventing someone who has a shadow finger from making a shadow arm when some idiot orc with a greataxe lops it off. If you have costs to make the shadow limbs, though (just like creating a magic item), the problem goes away.

    Eidt: And either you just skimmed it or geez you read quickly!
    Haha, thanks.
    Last edited by Vadskye; 2012-08-19 at 03:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohj View Post
    Hmm... Okay, I can see this being pretty cool, but, couldn't you make a negative version of Regeneration? Like doing a Graft, but a whole limb, organ, etc... The shadow version would be cool, fluff wise, but the checks seem to make a limb graft/negative regen a bit more viable.
    Not that I don't like your idea. You did a great job on it.
    The shadow thing is just a name, it's still a physical undead arm that's attached to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    You should look at the rules for grafts, particularly undead grafts, over in Libris Mortis. You're covering similar ground. I think the grafts in that book are overpriced by a fair amount, but I also think that having no cost other than losing your limb is not enough - not when you have a better than 50-50 shot at getting powerful spell-like abilities.
    Yeah i wanted to to be lower, but had too many spells that worked well with it. Should i reduce some more of them to only two or three numbers out of a hundred?

    Also, you should really organize your chart. Have a big fat block of "nothing" at the bottom, then increase power linearly as you roll higher. Also, energy drain does not belong on that list, and death ward probably doesn't either; those are far too powerful. You need to specify a caster level; caster level = HD is pretty standard. Also also, why Touch of Idiocy. That's Enchantment; it doesn't seem to fit.
    Well thatís the main reason why i gave them such low odd of happening, energy drain requires the highest possible roll, which is pretty rare. could probably get rid of touch of idiocy, but can you specify whats wrong with death ward? Also i was trying to sort it so that even if you roll higher then say, fifty, thereís still a chance that you get squat out of it.


    However! There is room to do what you want to do, if you want to randomize power. Instead of making those abilities uses per day, make those uses be once. Not per anything. That way you can even have some powerful stuff - but once the player uses the ability, he's back with just an undead body part. That could work.
    I think that kind of defeats the purpose of the thing i was going for here wich was something along the lines of gaining something cool despite loosing so much.


    You need to be careful about the wording here. I could slice my arm of slightly higher than I did last time, and then bam! It's not really the same limb anymore is it? If you're too overzealous about preventing that, though, then you risk preventing someone who has a shadow finger from making a shadow arm when some idiot orc with a greataxe lops it off. If you have costs to make the shadow limbs, though (just like creating a magic item), the problem goes away.
    Okay what would you recommend then, something along the lines of "If a shadowlimb is removed from the body, it can be re-attached and still function normally. if a major-minor body part containing a minor shadowlimb (ex: hand with a shadow finger) is turned into a shadowlimb, the two are considered a single entity under the higher classification. Only by going up a classification on the minor-major scale can a shadowlimb effectively be considered a new shadowlimb." or something?
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Yeah i wanted to to be lower, but had too many spells that worked well with it. Should i reduce some more of them to only two or three numbers out of a hundred?
    The issue isn't really with the probability. Even if it were only a 25% chance or 10% chance of something good, I'd slice off all my "major minor" (unnecessarily confusing name, by the way) body parts in a heartbeat. The problem is that you can get something for nothing.

    Well thatís the main reason why i gave them such low odd of happening, energy drain requires the highest possible roll, which is pretty rare. could probably get rid of touch of idiocy, but can you specify whats wrong with death ward? Also i was trying to sort it so that even if you roll higher then say, fifty, thereís still a chance that you get squat out of it.
    The problem with energy drain and death ward is that they are too good to be allowed as spell-like abilities, period. Those are spells. You have to take 7+ levels in a class to get access to that. You can't just get them for free because you were an idiot and lost your thumb.

    I think that kind of defeats the purpose of the thing i was going for here wich was something along the lines of gaining something cool despite loosing so much.
    Losing so much? What are you losing by replacing your thumb with a shadow thumb? I can count the list of classes seriously inconvenienced by a -1 penalty to checks involving thumbs on one thumb. I'm going to cut of all my thumbs and big toes and replace them with shadow variants which I will suffer basically no significant penalties for - and now I've got a 25% chance of Energy Drain 1/day, which can just end a fight right then and there at low levels.

    Okay what would you recommend then, something along the lines of "If a shadowlimb is removed from the body, it can be re-attached and still function normally. if a major-minor body part containing a minor shadowlimb (ex: hand with a shadow finger) is turned into a shadowlimb, the two are considered a single entity under the higher classification. Only by going up a classification on the minor-major scale can a shadowlimb effectively be considered a new shadowlimb." or something?
    I think that instead of doing that, you should just institute a cost to create shadow versions of body parts. Regeneration is a 7th level spell, and you want to do it for free?

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    The issue isn't really with the probability. Even if it were only a 25% chance or 10% chance of something good, I'd slice off all my "major minor" (unnecessarily confusing name, by the way) body parts in a heartbeat. The problem is that you can get something for nothing.

    Losing so much? What are you losing by replacing your thumb with a shadow thumb? I can count the list of classes seriously inconvenienced by a -1 penalty to checks involving thumbs on one thumb. I'm going to cut of all my thumbs and big toes and replace them with shadow variants which I will suffer basically no significant penalties for - and now I've got a 25% chance of Energy Drain 1/day, which can just end a fight right then and there at low levels.
    Allright, what would you reccomend for penalties then?




    The problem with energy drain and death ward is that they are too good to be allowed as spell-like abilities, period. Those are spells. You have to take 7+ levels in a class to get access to that. You can't just get them for free because you were an idiot and lost your thumb.
    Alright, what if i rewrote it so you can only get them from major limbs, and only one of either of them, so you can't just lob off both of your arms and get two energy drains at once?




    I think that instead of doing that, you should just institute a cost to create shadow versions of body parts. Regeneration is a 7th level spell, and you want to do it for free?
    Yeah i know that, but i don't know how to make a spell or how to work out costs, wich is why i said in the very first post "I realize i probably need to create a spell or something used to create one of these things, but i dont know how to do that so if anyone can help me with that it would be great." so someone could help me do so.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Allright, what would you reccomend for penalties then?
    Well, you could do one of my favorite mechanics: permanent negative levels! One negative level for minor, two for "major-minor", three for major, and four for organs. (Side note: why is heart an organ? That definitely seems more appropriate in "impossible"). No one would abuse it that way, and it would be a significant enough cost that it would be more reasonable to give the abilities. Plus, the penalties would be worse at low levels, which is when the SLAs are better - it balances out nicely. Just make sure that you can't remove the negative levels without also removing the limb.

    Alright, what if i rewrote it so you can only get them from major limbs, and only one of either of them, so you can't just lob off both of your arms and get two energy drains at once?
    If you go with the cost above, you don't need to worry about this. Otherwise, yes - some sort of modifier on the percentile roll based on the severity of the organ lost would be appropriate

    Yeah i know that, but i don't know how to make a spell or how to work out costs, wich is why i said in the very first post "I realize i probably need to create a spell or something used to create one of these things, but i dont know how to do that so if anyone can help me with that it would be great." so someone could help me do so.
    Ah, got it, sorry. Well, with the negative level cost, it's already pretty steep; just choose something semi-arbitrary that scales based on the severity of the organ. Maybe 200gp for minor, 500gp for major-minor, 2000 for major, and 5000 for organ? *shrug* These are weird items, so the costs can be weird. Just so long as they have one.

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Allright, what would you reccomend for penalties then?
    Well, you could do one of my favorite mechanics: permanent negative levels! One negative level for minor, two for "major-minor", three for major, and four for organs. (Side note: why is heart an organ? That definitely seems more appropriate in "impossible"). No one would abuse it that way, and it would be a significant enough cost that it would be more reasonable to give the abilities. Plus, the penalties would be worse at low levels, which is when the SLAs are better - it balances out nicely. Just make sure that you can't remove the negative levels without also removing the limb.

    Alright, what if i rewrote it so you can only get them from major limbs, and only one of either of them, so you can't just lob off both of your arms and get two energy drains at once?
    If you go with the cost above, you don't need to worry about this. Otherwise, yes - some sort of modifier on the percentile roll based on the severity of the organ lost would be appropriate

    Yeah i know that, but i don't know how to make a spell or how to work out costs, wich is why i said in the very first post "I realize i probably need to create a spell or something used to create one of these things, but i dont know how to do that so if anyone can help me with that it would be great." so someone could help me do so.
    Ah, got it, sorry. Well, with the negative level cost, it's already pretty steep; just choose something semi-arbitrary that scales based on the severity of the organ. Maybe 200gp for minor, 500gp for major-minor, 2000 for major, and 5000 for organ? *shrug* These are weird items, so the costs can be weird. Just so long as they have one.

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    Well, you could do one of my favorite mechanics: permanent negative levels! One negative level for minor, two for "major-minor", three for major, and four for organs. (Side note: why is heart an organ? That definitely seems more appropriate in "impossible"). No one would abuse it that way, and it would be a significant enough cost that it would be more reasonable to give the abilities. Plus, the penalties would be worse at low levels, which is when the SLAs are better - it balances out nicely. Just make sure that you can't remove the negative levels without also removing the limb.


    If you go with the cost above, you don't need to worry about this. Otherwise, yes - some sort of modifier on the percentile roll based on the severity of the organ lost would be appropriate


    Ah, got it, sorry. Well, with the negative level cost, it's already pretty steep; just choose something semi-arbitrary that scales based on the severity of the organ. Maybe 200gp for minor, 500gp for major-minor, 2000 for major, and 5000 for organ? *shrug* These are weird items, so the costs can be weird. Just so long as they have one.


    Three negitive levels just to get your arm back? I think even with those abilities that's pretty steep, pretty sure that's something akin to giving up your house just to get your bike repaired.

    As for the heart, it does nothing but repeat the same motions over and over again for as long as it exists. It doesnt create any chemichals, or do any complex motions like say, the brain, so i marked it down as reviable.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Eh, if that feels like too much, then make it half that; one negative level for the first two categories, and two for the second. Mostly, you're paying for the SLAs, though, not the arm itself.

    The heart's pretty complicated in the motions it does, actually, but let's put that aside for the moment. The description of "impossible" says: "other body parts that cause instant death upon destruction". Now, the heart definitely falls into this category. So either the description should be changed, or the heart should be there.

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Altered the SLA chart, added special penalites for death ward and energy drain, added a price to create shadowlimbs (I may edit them to have a lower cost for major-minor and minor types) and increased the penalties to having a major shadowlimb and major-minor shadowlimb.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Mechanically, how does a -0.5 skill check penalty work? Aren't skill check DCs always whole numbers?

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Cool - I like this better. You should probably update the initial table; it's inaccurate right now.

    Also, any particular reason that you decided to spread out the "get nothing" rolls throughout the table? Just so you don't know whether you get something until you check the table?

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grue View Post
    Mechanically, how does a -0.5 skill check penalty work? Aren't skill check DCs always whole numbers?
    It works in the same way putting ranks into a cross-class skill works in 3.5, if you have only one rank in it, you don't get anything out of it. But if you have two ranks in it, then you get one point in the skill itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    Cool - I like this better. You should probably update the initial table; it's inaccurate right now.
    Darnit, could have sworn i did that. Think i did and the tab just crashed without my noticing or something i guess.

    Also, any particular reason that you decided to spread out the "get nothing" rolls throughout the table? Just so you don't know whether you get something until you check the table?
    Pretty much yeah, don't want people thinking "oh i rolled a twenty one, that must mean i got something lame/nothing" or "Woo-hoo ninedy-eight! I got something AWSOME!" It's supposed to be a small chance of getting something interesting, no matter how high or low your dice can roll.

    Any other suggestions/ideas?
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    It works in the same way putting ranks into a cross-class skill works in 3.5, if you have only one rank in it, you don't get anything out of it. But if you have two ranks in it, then you get one point in the skill itself.
    Ah, I see. So only every odd-numbered finger you replace translates to a skill penalty then?

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grue View Post
    Ah, I see. So only every odd-numbered finger you replace translates to a skill penalty then?
    Even. If you only have one shadowfinger then you dont get a penalty. If you get two however then you take -1 on skill checks that inolve hands.
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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Even. If you only have one shadowfinger then you dont get a penalty. If you get two however then you take -1 on skill checks that inolve hands.
    As I understand fractional skill modifiers are rounded down. If I have 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand and get a shadowthumb replacement, I now have a modifier of 4.5, which rounds down to 4; just like if I put 9 ranks into Sleight of Hand as a CC skill to get 4.5 ranks, rounded down to 4.
    Last edited by The Grue; 2012-08-20 at 08:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Arm chopped off and trouble with positive energy? Use Necromancy! Shadowlimbs (PE

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grue View Post
    As I understand fractional skill modifiers are rounded down. If I have 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand and get a shadowthumb replacement, I now have a modifier of 4.5, which rounds down to 4; just like if I put 9 ranks into Sleight of Hand as a CC skill to get 4.5 ranks, rounded down to 4.
    Ahh... that makes sence then i guess.
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