Thrallherd's Thrallherd Questions

[TelemontTanthul]

I am running a Psion 5/Thrallherd 5 (Leadership score of 19), I'm going for the long haul on the Thrallherd. That is not part of the question, so let's avoid debating the logic of being a Thrallherd for more than 1 level.

My questions are as follows:

Normally, a Thrallherd does not really choose, per say, his minions, the most notable of which is a thrall (Cohort for those who prefer to use Leadership nominations), similar to a cohort, but in my case, my DM has allowed me to choose my own Thrall.

1. Would it be a little bit... underhanded (to put it lightly) to make my thrall a lesser Thrallherd? Allowing him to essentially be a lieutenant, commanding a slightly smaller squad of believers (followers).

2. Would there be a conflict of interest in commanding my Thrall's minions? For example, since I control the Thrallherd, as a Thrallherd, would my commands override any commands of my Thrall?

I realize this is a little bit like Thrall-ception, so if any clarification is required, please, let me know.

-Telemont

[Mithril Leaf]

3 things here:
A) In fact, most of the time, thrallherds are assumed to be able to build their own thralls, it's part of what makes the class so broken.
B) It's almost always best to go in thrallherd for the long haul, that extra thrall is totally worth it.
C) Don't stack thrallherds. It gets out of hand very quickly. What's stopping you from having your thrallherd from having a thrallherd thrall and so on. This way lies madness.

[Crasical]

A thrallherd already gets so many followers that I don't know what to do with them all.

[TelemontTanthul]

Yes indeed, this way lies madness.

Because I think, due to the level restrictions for the Thrallherd's Thrall is a mere -1 the character level, that I could have 4 thralls? Let's see...

Me (Level 10)
My Thrall (Level 9)
His Thrall (Level 8)
Thrall 3 (Level 7)
Thrall 4 (Level 6)

Thrall 4 meets the base requirements for becoming a thrallherd, so he would have a thrall, but it wouldn't be a Thrallherd, thus ending the madness.

As for how many minions, I don't think I have the brainpower left in me today to calculate how many. (it's past midnight here, and I've been reading for 2 hours on making minions)


I think I would have to keep track of over 100 level 1 believers.

Yeah... problematic.

Fortunately, I am a little more even-handed on playing a class I know has a history of being broken, I had my Believers decided for me by the DM and a improvised randomization table for class, race, and gender. We made over 40 characters (deciding only what I mentioned already, no stats, thank god)

and I ended up with 11 commoners. Haha

Bad luck? Possibly. Karma? Probably.

[Arbane]

A thrallherd already gets so many followers that I don't know what to do with them all.

The guy playing a Thrallherd in this comic might have a few suggestions.

and I ended up with 11 commoners. Haha

Bad luck? Possibly. Karma? Probably.

So, get them killed. You'll get more. (This is what makes Thrallherds even MORE gross than regular leadership-your minions are COMPLETELY expendable.)

[only1doug]

The guy playing a Thrallherd in this comic might have a few suggestions.



So, get them killed. You'll get more. (This is what makes Thrallherds even MORE gross than regular leadership-your minions are COMPLETELY expendable.)

Yup, he's well on his way to only having caster Thralls, simply by looking after the casters a bit better and not being shy about sacrificing the non-caster thralls.

This Comic describes his initial choices of splitting up his minions (note in third panel, hover over to view popup).

[TelemontTanthul]

I definitely enjoyed reading that comic, I think I could learn a lot about how to mismanage my minions from Dan. Especially the bit about having a Department of Human Resources.

Are there any feats I could take to effectively increase my Leadership score for the Thrallherd? I know that they are more restricted in that regard.

Otherwise, if there are any other suggestions on how to get more minions, please, I am all ears. (Or technically eyes, since I am going to be reading responses)

[Venger]

I definitely enjoyed reading that comic, I think I could learn a lot about how to mismanage my minions from Dan. Especially the bit about having a Department of Human Resources.

Are there any feats I could take to effectively increase my Leadership score for the Thrallherd? I know that they are more restricted in that regard.

Otherwise, if there are any other suggestions on how to get more minions, please, I am all ears. (Or technically eyes, since I am going to be reading responses)

depending on your build, might makes right allows you to add your str score to your leadership score (note: add, not substitute your cha for it, so at least try not to have a negative in both scores)

[demigodus]

So, get them killed. You'll get more. (This is what makes Thrallherds even MORE gross than regular leadership-your minions are COMPLETELY expendable.)

Or keep killing off all lvl 1 minions that are not commoners. But arrange with the DM to be allowed to build the commoners:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822

Then just have your army of commoners destroy encounters.

[Fouredged Sword]

On use of thrallherd I love is to use the feat from libermortis that gives you a stacking +1 to skill rolls for each negative level you deal.

Something like psion 5 / thrallheard 10 - vampire.

Have each thrall cohort be a thrallherd. Each day eat all your non-thrall minions. Get +200-500 to all skills and saves and several thousand temp HP. Become a living god.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Otherwise, if there are any other suggestions on how to get more minions, please, I am all ears. (Or technically eyes, since I am going to be reading responses)

There's the Extra Followers feat from Heroes of Battle that doubles your followers. See if your DM will allow you to take that for Believers.

[2xMachina]

You don't have to haul around all your followers. Keep them in every city, collecting information.

Walk into a brand new city? Your intelligence group has already been there. Want an introduction to some guy? Hey look, one of your followers is an acquaintance, and can get you an invitation to the party.

Or you could get them to worship you and try for a divine rank.

For thrallception, get your thrall to command their thrall to follow your orders. No conflicting order problems. Beware of a high ranking thrall getting killed tho. The whole group under them can disperse.

[TelemontTanthul]

For thrallception, get your thrall to command their thrall to follow your orders. No conflicting order problems. Beware of a high ranking thrall getting killed tho. The whole group under them can disperse.

Thank you 2xMachina for the insight, I wasn't sure how the chain of command would work.

I realized that when I reach level 10 in Thrallherd, I could have a second thrallherd-thrall, effectively doubling the amount of Thrall-ception.

At that point, I would be more concerned about empire building than anything else. I plan on using the majority of my minions to construct a base of operations for my party (Yes, I have coworkers I *don't* mind control... yet)

So, next logical questions:

1. How long would it take to construct a castle, considering I have a workforce of probably about 150 or so. (Sorry, no dimensions given yet, I have to design it first.

2. Should I grind out the rough edges of my forces, such as the commoners? Because I can still use them as a valuable labor resource.

3. Should I just set up a town that will forever be friendly to the party?

4. (Given the information below) What should I do with all my wizards? I am not too willing to bring them on adventures with me, since they are likely to only get in the way. Most of them are level 1 anyway.

I have a complete breakdown of my minions at this point, here is some basic information:

------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to use these in your own campaigns if you are in need of some quick 1st level NPCs with names or, if you run a thrallherd and don't want to spend as much time as I did to roll the minions. (I haven't rolled any stats)

{table=head]Class|Number of Believers
Commoner |

39

|
Fighter |

27

|
Wizard |

25

|
Rogue |

13

|
Ranger |

8

|
Sorcerer |

7

|
Adept |

6

|
Barbarian |

6

|
Bard |

6

|
Expert |

6

|
Aristocrat |

4

|
Cleric |

3

|
Monk |

2

|
Warrior |

2

|
Conjurer |

1

|
Evoker |

1

| [/table]


I think... I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit... How about some pretty pictures instead?

TADA!







My favorite minion is the Female Half-Orc Cleric named Margarita. She's going places.

Also: Given that my level 5 minion, through random table rolling, turned out to be an Expert. What should he specialize in, profession-wise? I want to build a castle, so I think having a high level Architect would be prudent.

Next Logical Question:

Why on Earth would I spend so much time trying to figure out what my minions are, their names, and alignments?

Answer: I have a brother who loves to organize information, and he volunteered to do it for me. Huzzah!

[Fouredged Sword]

Building a castle is easy, just use the crafting rules and have your DM price your construction (stronghold builders guide suggested).

Then all your labor force rolls to aid other on the craft check. Each is +2 to the roll and for every 10 commoners aiding the roll (make sure they have 4 ranks in the correct craft and at least a +1 tool or +1 int) you get to increase the DC of the craft check by 20 to speed construction.

Bonus if you get a marshal with motivate int to act as a labor leader, then you don't need ranks or tools.

Say a good level level 5 leader (int +2, 8 ranks) and 150 followers (no skills, make the aid other check 25% of the time) gives you 37.5 +2's.

Then you have 20 as your base and +75, so 90. Make the DC 90 by choice, You will make 810gp of progress per week.

Add a marshal with a +3 cha mod and an item boosting cha by +4 and you have a base 25, and your minions make the aid other check every time taking ten.

This allows a full check of 325 with a dc of 325, allowing 10562.5 gp of progress a week, a 1300% increase in production.

[Venger]

Building a castle is easy, just use the crafting rules and have your DM price your construction (stronghold builders guide suggested).

Then all your labor force rolls to aid other on the craft check. Each is +2 to the roll and for every 10 commoners aiding the roll (make sure they have 4 ranks in the correct craft and at least a +1 tool or +1 int) you get to increase the DC of the craft check by 20 to speed construction.

Bonus if you get a marshal with motivate int to act as a labor leader, then you don't need ranks or tools.

Say a good level level 5 leader (int +2, 8 ranks) and 150 followers (no skills, make the aid other check 25% of the time) gives you 37.5 +2's.

Then you have 20 as your base and +75, so 90. Make the DC 90 by choice, You will make 810gp of progress per week.

Add a marshal with a +3 cha mod and an item boosting cha by +4 and you have a base 25, and your minions make the aid other check every time taking ten.

This allows a full check of 325 with a dc of 325, allowing 10562.5 gp of progress a week, a 1300% increase in production.

Sure, I guess you could do that

assuming of course that minionmancy is the message rather than simply the medium, yours does sound like more fun. more stuff for campaign hooks, etc, progress, character development. besides, the lyre only works 1/week (per person it is implied, pass it around all the followers with perform strings or decent cha) or 1/week on an absolute scale if your DM doesn't want to play civilization, so it could be used to supplement construction rather than replace it.

[Mithril Leaf]

Sure, I guess you could do that

assuming of course that minionmancy is the message rather than simply the medium, yours does sound like more fun. more stuff for campaign hooks, etc, progress, character development. besides, the lyre only works 1/week (per person it is implied, pass it around all the followers with perform strings or decent cha) or 1/week on an absolute scale if your DM doesn't want to play civilization, so it could be used to supplement construction rather than replace it.

Or he could murder his minions until he gets a warforged bard

[Jarveiyan]

TelemontTanthul you may not want to hear this, however I'm going to say it. Thrallherd says leadership won't work with that prestige class, which says for me anything cueing off of it(leadership, followers, and/or cohorts) won't work with it either. To be sure you need to talk this over with your GM. Remember believers aren't followers and thralls aren't cohorts.

[The Random NPC]

TelemontTanthul you may not want to hear this, however I'm going to say it. Thrallherd says leadership won't work with that prestige class, which says for me anything cueing off of it(leadership, followers, and/or cohorts) won't work with it either. To be sure you need to talk this over with your GM. Remember believers aren't followers and thralls aren't cohorts.

It would depend on how it was phrased. For example, assuming Might makes Right simply says that you add your strength to your leadership score, it would still work with Thrallherd as they both have leadership scores.

[Crasical]

The guy playing a Thrallherd in this comic might have a few suggestions.

Euugh. Anyone who complains about OotS being overcrowded by text bubbles hasn't seen this before.

[Mithril Leaf]

Euugh. Anyone who complains about OotS being overcrowded by text bubbles hasn't seen this before.

I didn't really want to break the ice, but yeah, that kinda hurt my eyes to read.

[Jarveiyan]

It would depend on how it was phrased. For example, assuming Might makes Right simply says that you add your strength to your leadership score, it would still work with Thrallherd as they both have leadership scores.

That will work, except if the effects mention followers or cohorts, reference what I said before. If that feat just says you can add strength to leadership score, fine, it works. Stuff like extra followers or improved cohort won't work though.

[Arbane]

Euugh. Anyone who complains about OotS being overcrowded by text bubbles hasn't seen this before.

I didn't really want to break the ice, but yeah, that kinda hurt my eyes to read.

Yeah, the guy's art is terrible (and it used to be _worse_!), but I like the writing.

[Psyren]

Euugh. Anyone who complains about OotS being overcrowded by text bubbles hasn't seen this before.

comic way too wordy for chief grukgruk sometimes

Normally, a Thrallherd does not really choose, per say, his minions, the most notable of which is a thrall (Cohort for those who prefer to use Leadership nominations), similar to a cohort, but in my case, my DM has allowed me to choose my own Thrall.

As others have said, you get to choose by RAW (though the wording indicates the DM has final say.)

Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences.
*list of differences*

A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.

As the above ability of the Leadership feat is not one of the listed differences, it is automatically incorporated into the Thrallherd.

I imagine the DM is arbiter over this in the same way that s/he is arbiter over what you get from a Planar Ally. In other words, if you don't get what you ask for, there needs to be a good reason why or else you're simply being griefed.

[Venger]

That will work, except if the effects mention followers or cohorts, reference what I said before. If that feat just says you can add strength to leadership score, fine, it works. Stuff like extra followers or improved cohort won't work though.

that is exactly what the feat says. add your str mod to your leadership score, so your thrallherd leadership is equal to:

Character level + thrallherd level + cha mod + str mod

you are correct about improved cohort, but thrallherd does not need it. it lets your cohort move from 2 levels behind to you to 1. that's already the cap with thrallherd, prerequisites aside.

[Jarveiyan]

TelemontTanthul can't take Might makes Right - he has the inability to take the leadership feat(prereq 6th lvl) due to thrallherd which he got at 6th lvl.

[Arcanist]

TelemontTanthul can't take Might makes Right - he has the inability to take the leadership feat(prereq 6th lvl) due to thrallherd which he got at 6th lvl.

A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences.

WELL THAT is a little weird...

akin
adj \ə-ˈkin\

Definition of AKIN:

1: related by blood : descended from a common ancestor or prototype
2: essentially similar, related, or compatible <his interests are akin to mine>

Hmm... I'm not usually one to pick at WoTC's choice of words but....

I guess the problem is: Does Thrallherd count as leadership? By RAW? No it does not. I'd say by RAI it does, but that term doesn't technically make sense (since I cannot in all honesty say that I am a mind reader/time-traveler).

EDIT: Better yet, does Undead Leadership count for Leadership prerequisites?

[Doc_Pippin]

The Best possible thralls for army massing are the opti- Dread Necro or the Might makes Right Orc Warlord leader + the extra followers feat both are capable in combat shoring up in places the basic thrall herds lack but also bringing either mass undead or Orc hoards... I prefer the Dread Necro because he casts off CHA making him a prime candidate for both Leadership and Undead Leadership+ extra Followers, Rulership, and improved cohort which by RAW would double the followers available to him and allow his Cohort(s) to be up to one level below him.
Then give him anything to boost his HD limit in normal animated dead and you can build a whole city.so in the end you can have

Your Believers + His followers (Living) x2+ His followers (Undead) x2+ his controlled undead + his animated HD limit (Which is already insane)

His cohort is say an Orc Warlord with Might makes right both leaderships extra followers, blood of the warlord, rulership

His undead cohort could be a Necropolitian Dread Pirate granting even more followers

the list goes on and on with these + legendary leader, legendary captain, great captain

I long ago proved it is possible to raise a truely insane army if given the freedom to do so