How long is my katana?

[Ashtagon]

Wikipedia says that a katana is defined by a blade at least 24" long. Add another 8" (generous) for a grip, and at 32", it's barely long enough to be classed as a longsword.

The longest modern "replica" katana I have found has a blade of 33". With grip, it comes up to 41" (estimated).

By compariosn, wikipedia identifies bastard swords as having a blade length of 39-48", plus an additional 8-11" grip, for a total length of 47-51". Wikipedia identifies longswords (in an older version of the article, before it got merged with bastard swords) as 35-36" blade length and total length 41-47"

The bastard sword is a good foot longer than the katana, which barely makes the length category for longswords.

Given that D&D rules do allow for longswords to be used two-handed, is there action any reason beyond "ethnic cool" for the weapon to be given bastard sword stats?

(please, no thread crapping with *that* post)

[Spiryt]

Uh...

Katanas were mainly two handed weapons. Plenty of one handed manuevers possible, but two handed weapon.

The bastard sword is a good foot longer than the katana, which barely makes the length category for longswords.

Cannot find anything about 'lenght category' in 3.5. Pretty sure weapons doesn't have any real defined lenght etc. in D&D?

[Ashtagon]

Uh...

Katanas were mainly two handed weapons. Plenty of one handed manuevers possible, but two handed weapon.

Cannot find anything about 'lenght category' in 3.5. Pretty sure weapons doesn't have any real defined lenght etc. in D&D?

Um yeah. I'm trying to tie real-world information to my game. I guess that's why I was using a real-world source of information.

[Stray]

When I was training Ken-Jutsu, my training swords had an overall length of 40 inches, with hilt from 10 to 12 inches. Senior instructors katanas were similar in size. Some techniques actually required grabbing hilt of your opponents sword between his hands, so hilts were definitely longer than 8 inches.

[Driderman]

Try here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...238042&page=45

[Spiryt]

Um yeah. I'm trying to tie real-world information to my game. I guess that's why I was using a real-world source of information.

I'm not sure what's the point then.

Katanas were two handed sword, but wieldable with one hand - for some manuevers, like getting a bit more reach, for example.

Just like most most European longswords.

D&D 'greatsword' seems to cover large, pretty strictly two handed swords, so katana is 'bastard sword'. Though in D&D that generally has not much use, and one is better off with other weapons...


Personally, I would just stat katana as 3.5 'falchion' and be done with it.

[Ashtagon]

http://www.bugei.com/LongTsuka.html
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/arc...p/t-46064.html

Between the photos and the statement that the tsuka (grip) is typically 1/3 blade length and not long enough for a third hand to grip the tsuka, that brings the range to 32-37" for historical katana, and 44" for that reproduction blade. Which still makes it a short longsword.

hmm.

[Krazzman]

http://www.bugei.com/LongTsuka.html
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/arc...p/t-46064.html

Between the photos and the statement that the tsuka (grip) is typically 1/3 blade length and not long enough for a third hand to grip the tsuka, that brings the range to 32-37" for historical katana, and 44" for that reproduction blade. Which still makes it a short longsword.

hmm.

Afaik the Longsword was mostly used as 1-1/2-hander. I had a... let's say few connections to a local "knight-group" or something like that. I never saw one of them use their sword one handed. Never saw a shield in use there either... probably because I mostly were there for my friends and to spent time with them.

In my opinion Pathfinder did the Katana "right". As the DnD standard Longsword is a one-handed weapon it uses the same stats.

The differences I have seen is that while europeans use different words for different swords (Shortsword/Longsword/Flamberg/Claymore etc.) we drop the additional information and just use the term Katana when talking about them.

Some years ago I thought about ordering a Katana. There are differences in lenght of the blade and curve of the blade as well as grip lenght and angle.

I think the main problem in sorting different swords to some few meta-weapons is: DnD failed with the first set of rules for that and brought that through all their editions. They wrote longsword while meaning "a bit longer shortsword".

Hope this is of help for you.

[Spiryt]

Afaik the Longsword was mostly used as 1-1/2-hander. I had a... let's say few connections to a local "knight-group" or something like that. I never saw one of them use their sword one handed. Never saw a shield in use there either... probably because I mostly were there for my friends and to spent time with them.

There's plenty of completely fantasy grade "knight groups" - if they didn't use shields at all, they would probably be one of them.

Anyway,

There seems usual confusion indeed here :

In medieval Europe, "longsword" was a name for two handed sword.

Some of them were large and mostly two handed indeed, some of them could be very readily and nimbly used with one hand - to gain a bit of reach in maneuvers for example, or to have other hand free for grabbing etc.

Later ages brought the 'bastard' sword term, which is rather unclear one, but generally is used to describe such a more compact longsword that can be wielded with one hand easily.

In D&D "longsword" is one handed weapon, weapon trope including, and probably mainly based on 'Dark Age' swords and medieval one handers.


Katana is longsword equivalent in the sense that it's personal weapon meant to be used two handed/one handed in some occasions.

It's short compared to most longswords, most probably due to both smaller stature of Japanese people, and it's close quarters, compact character.

Japanese had plenty of longer nihonto as well, but katana sized ones were most popular.

There were many longswords with total lenght under one meter as well:

This one seems to be just under, with 31.5 inches blade

[Storm Bringer]

just to add what others have said, the weapon called a "longsword" in DnD is a much shorter weapon than the one called "Longsword in Real Life.

A DND longsword went by several names in different times and places, however, a a one handed, double edged, cut and thrust weapon, such as this one, was known as an "Arming sword", and is the weapon which DnD calls a "longsword".

a historical longsword is a two handed weapon closer to what DnD calls a "bastard sword". they were used slightly later in the historical timeline to arming swords. Here is a picture of a man holding a bastard sword. note the grip is long enough to fit two hands, but the man is able to hold it comfortably in one hand.

A proper two handed sword is a weapon that was used much later in the timeline, and much bigger than a bastard sword/RL longsword, being used well into the firearms era.

a Katana, like a RL longsword/DnD bastard sword, is a two handed weapon which is used onw handed in certain moves to free up a hand for something else. I think statting it as a DnD bastard sword is quite acceptable.

[Zerter]

Kind of a dirty question if you ask me...

[Rion]

Also that while the Katana, is shorter than the historical longsword (bastard sword in D&D) the blade was thicker, and it weighs rougly the same as longsword (if not more). This results in the katana being about as cumbersome for onehanded use as the bastard sword, despite being shorter.

[Spiryt]

note the grip is long enough to fit two hands, but the man is able to hold it comfortably in one hand.

Well, one can comfortably hold a child in one hand, so that's not really telling much.

A proper two handed sword is a weapon that was used much later in the timeline, and much bigger than a bastard sword/RL longsword, being used well into the firearms era.

Well, there were quite a few "proper" two handers before 15th century already.

Also that while the Katana, is shorter than the historical longsword (bastard sword in D&D) the blade was thicker, and it weighs rougly the same as longsword (if not more). This results in the katana being about as cumbersome for onehanded use as the bastard sword, despite being shorter.

Hard to tell, Japanese blades in museums etc. are, quite unfortunately, measured to hell and back but without weight, usually.

Anyway, there was huge variety in weights/thickness of longswords, some of them were - not so much of it in katana's case, but still some of it.

So stating that "katana blades were thicker" is not really possible, unless on some very rough "average".
Being 'cumbersome', though is not a matter that can be guessed just from weight and lenght.

[Ashtagon]

Okay, some definition of terms is in order...

I consider an idealised "One-Handed" blade weapon to be 36" long (total length). This is what D&D called the longsword, but what real life called the arming sword in the Middle Ages, and the broadsword or basket-hilted sword in the early modern era.

An idealised "Light" blade is exactly half the length of a one-handed blade (18"). An idealised "Two-Handed" blade is exactly twice the length of a one-handed blade (72"). These correspond to the D&D short sword and great sword, respectively.

The astute reader will notice there's a logarithmic function going on here. By logarithmic maths, the mid-point between 1-H and 2-H is at 4' 2½". This is what D&D calls a bastard sword, but which historically corresponds better to the longsword, which 19th century writers would refer to as the hand-and-a-half sword.

So, based on logarithm maths, I'm defining the following weapons. All later commentary in this post will use these definitions for the terms.

• Knife: 8-16 cm (3" - 6¼") (D&D 1e and 2e only had this, where it was intended to represent kitchen utensils rather than weapons)
• Dagger: 16-32 cm (6¼" - 1' ½") (6-13")
• Short Sword: 32-65 cm (1' ¼" - 2' 1¼") (13-25")
• Broadsword: 65-109 cm (2' 1¼" - 3' 6¾") (25-43") (D&D calls this a longsword; it was an "arming sword" in Middle Ages, and a broad sword in the early modern era)
• Longsword: 109-154 cm (3' 6¾" - 5' ½") (43-61") (D&D calls this a bastard sword)
• Great Sword: 154-217 cm (5' ½" - 7' 1½") (61-82")

Based on these ranges, even the largest historical katana are broadsword-equivalents. Yes, I am aware of the nodachi and odachi, which were indisputably great swords. And the wakizashi is indisputably a short sword.

I guess I can call the katana a broadsword, and note that some of the larger examples ("o-gatana") were functionally longswords. I guess too that because Japanese people from the Middle Ages were (and to some extent are) shorter than Europeans, a shorter blade would still remain functionally equivalent to a Western longsword in terms of combat technique, which might justify making them longswords anyway.

Which leaves the nagamaki. I think I can make this equivalent to a longsword that can only be used two-handed. The total weapon length is the same as a great sword, which gives it the same useful amount of angular momentum. But it has a shorter useful blade length, which limits it compared to a great sword.

Naginata? It's a pole weapon, with reach, despite using similar construction techniques to regular swords.

[Morph Bark]

Given that D&D rules do allow for longswords to be used two-handed,

[citation needed]

[Ashtagon]

[citation needed]

http://www.d20srd.org/

Base damage is same as for one-handed use, but you get ×1.5 your Strength bonus instead of ×1.

[Spiryt]

Based on these ranges, even the largest historical katana are broadsword-equivalents. Yes, I am aware of the nodachi and odachi, which were indisputably great swords. And the wakizashi is indisputably a short sword.

I guess I can call the katana a broadsword, and note that some of the larger examples ("o-gatana") were functionally longswords. I guess too that because Japanese people from the Middle Ages were (and to some extent are) shorter than Europeans, a shorter blade would still remain functionally equivalent to a Western longsword in terms of combat technique, which might justify making them longswords anyway.

.

They are not 'broad sword' equivalents, and calling o-gatana functionally longsword is tricky at best.

One handed swords and later broadswords, walloon swords, schiavonas etc. can only be used with two hands in rather "improvised" manner at best, which from the very start makes them completely different from katanas.

Defining sword function by blade and overall lenght doesn't have any sense - I think that that's the whole thing about this topic.

Lenght of a sword and it's parts is important feature concerning it's handling, motion and impacts, but without tons of other aspects from weight to profile doesn't really tell much.

a shorter blade would still remain functionally equivalent to a Western longsword in terms of combat technique

Depends on what blade and what longsword. Plenty of longswords out there that would be never 'equivalent' to katana, even with exactly the same size and proportions.

[Matthew]

Generally speaking, the Japanese long sword is two to three shaku in length, which is to say 24" to 36". Two shaku is also the minimum length for a D&D long sword from AD&D first edition onwards (presumably). Katana are typically shorter than tachi, some are indeed just cut down tachi. The hand and a half sword or what is now commonly called a "longsword" amongst enthusiasts and collectors (being perhaps the most common period term) seems to hover around 30" to 42", so I see no problem with katana being either D&D long swords or bastard swords, if the criteria is length.

[Spiryt]

Generally speaking, the Japanese long sword is two to three shaku in length, which is to say 24" to 36". Two shaku is also the minimum length for a D&D long sword from AD&D first edition onwards (presumably). Katana are typically shorter than tachi, some are indeed just cut down tachi.

The definition I keep reading is that the only really clear differences were mountings and way of wearing them - edge upwards or downwards.

http://nihontoclub.com/glossary/types-of-swords

Other than that different lenghts/curvatures and generally distinct shapes can be seen between both 'types' from the same period.

http://nihontoclub.com/swords/0000-0636

http://nihontoclub.com/swords/0000-0039

[Matthew]

The definition I keep reading is that the only really clear differences were mountings and way of wearing them - edge upwards or downwards.

http://nihontoclub.com/glossary/types-of-swords

Other than that different lenghts/curvatures and generally distinct shapes can be seen between both 'types' from the same period.

http://nihontoclub.com/swords/0000-0636

http://nihontoclub.com/swords/0000-0039

Yes, the definition of a tachi as opposed to a katana is based on style of wearing, but the fact remains that many tachi [i.e. older blades] were cut down to serve as katana, I have seen them in museums here in Japan and in Britain as well. It is speculated that the reason is a move from cavalry to infantry based fighting, but I doubt it is that clean cut.

Of course, I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to say how it was determined the blades cut down were considered tachi, maybe they were long katana cut down to serve as tachi, but I am going to give the museums the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[Morph Bark]

http://www.d20srd.org/

Base damage is same as for one-handed use, but you get ×1.5 your Strength bonus instead of ×1.

I asked for a citation, as in a quote and a source for that quote, which means the exact spot to find it in. If I had asked for a citation of John 3:19, saying "the Bible" wouldn't be sufficient either.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I asked for a citation, as in a quote and a source for that quote, which means the exact spot to find it in. If I had asked for a citation of John 3:19, saying "the Bible" wouldn't be sufficient either.

PHB 113, ".... If a one-handed weapon is weilded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's strength bonus to damage rolls."

[Water_Bear]

I asked for a citation, as in a quote and a source for that quote, which means the exact spot to find it in. If I had asked for a citation of John 3:19, saying "the Bible" wouldn't be sufficient either.

What? Look this isn't Debate Club, look it the heck up yourself.

It is a well known rule that you can use a One Handed weapon (but not a Light weapon) with two hands to apply 150% Strength bonus to damage, as you would on a Two Handed Weapon. Saying you need to 'cite' it with exact page numbers for the PHB is as stupid as saying that you need to cite that Paladins get Smite Evil.

Don't be difficult just for the sake of it.

[toapat]

Wikipedia says that a katana is defined by a blade at least 24" long. Add another 8" (generous) for a grip, and at 32", it's barely long enough to be classed as a longsword.

The longest modern "replica" katana I have found has a blade of 33". With grip, it comes up to 41" (estimated).

By compariosn, wikipedia identifies bastard swords as having a blade length of 39-48", plus an additional 8-11" grip, for a total length of 47-51". Wikipedia identifies longswords (in an older version of the article, before it got merged with bastard swords) as 35-36" blade length and total length 41-47"

The bastard sword is a good foot longer than the katana, which barely makes the length category for longswords.

Given that D&D rules do allow for longswords to be used two-handed, is there action any reason beyond "ethnic cool" for the weapon to be given bastard sword stats?

(please, no thread crapping with *that* post)

I would like to point out that the Wikipedia Articles were significantly revised recently for all swords, and that in doing so, the blade lengths were changed with rather significant differences and minimal citing.

either way, as has been said in the thread earlier, what makes a Katana a Bastard sword, is the Technique required to properly wield the weapon.

the way i always considered it was with a few quick rules:
Blade Length:
A Sword is an average of 27" +-3"
Add 6" for Longsword, x2 for Bastard, x3 for greatsword
subtract 6" for Shortsword, x2 for dagger, x3 for knife

[TheOOB]

An important thing to remember is that, in real life, just because a weapon is designed for two hands, doesn't mean you keep two hands locked on the grip at all times. In real life, anything we would call a long sword is definatly a two handed weapon(in that you wouldn't hold something in your off hand, such as a shield), though they often had a one handed grip. Depending on the maneuver you are using, you may use your off hand to stabilize the sword, balance yourself, or punch someone in the face.

A sword you would use with a shield or off hand weapon would be much smaller, such as an arming sword.

Much in the same way, a katana is a two handed weapon, but both hands wouldn't necessarily be on the grip at all times. Yes a katana is notably smaller than a longsword, but there are two reasons for that. First, Japanese people tended to be smaller than European people, and second, Japan had some pretty terrible iron, and they couldn't forge a sword much larger without making it fragile. That's also where the curve comes in, straighter katana where generally considered superior, but Japan lacked the metal and smithing techniques to make straight bladed weapons that wouldn't break.

[Scow2]

The problem with D&D is that it classified the "Longsword" and "Bastard Sword" as two different weapons, when historically they were the same thing.

[Fiery Diamond]

A large part of the confusion that comes with all this is a simple "Research? What's that?" on the part of the people who made the D&D rules. Until I played D&D when I was in high school, I had never heard any terms regarding swords discussed (just encountered them in passing) or seen anything realistic regarding sword fights. This means my knowledge of swords was limited to what I'd read in fantasy stories and what I'd seen in games and movies. D&D just picks its own terms to use for things without regard for what they're called in real life. This only makes things worse, because it widens the gulf even further between people who know what they're talking about and people who've had the limited experience I did (e.g. most fantasy fans) because the latter group "learn" the terms D&D uses and never bother to question whether that's what they actually mean.

Falchion and longsword are the two ones that D&D gets completely wrong that I can say off the top of my head. You have people "learning" that that's what those words mean, and well, that just makes things more confusing.

I mean, when I was in grade school, I was proud of myself for knowing something esoteric like what a "cross hilt" was. Yeah. That's how badly people who are fantasy sword fanboys are educated, and it perpetuates because of the inaccuracies in media.

For example, just from myself: I hear longsword, I think arming sword (a term I just learned in this thread). I hear broadsword, I think "especially wide-bladed hand-and-a-half sword." I hear bastard sword, I think "hand-and-a-half sword that isn't as broad as a broadsword." I hear short sword, I think "sword designed primarily for stabbing that is shorter than a longsword but longer than a long-bladed dagger." I hear great sword, I think "two handed sword with total length of about 5 (give or take a little) feet." I hear claymore, I think "great sword with a wide blade and a distinctive taper."

It doesn't matter that those connections are often factually wrong, what matters is that they are supported by and perpetuated by the media consumed, which 1) gives those concepts in the first place and 2)affirms that those are the definitions. So when people who actually know what the &@#% they're talking about enter the scene, EVERYBODY ends up confused.

[toapat]

*snip*

Falchion and Scimitar are what DnD gets completely wrong, because the Scimitar is a cavalry saber from the middle east, where as a Falchion is a Swordlike weapon with a broad, curving blade and awkward weighting.

the comparison of Longsword and Bastardsword is likewise off, because a Bastard Sword is a celtic weapon with weighting and length that made it difficult to wield as a longsword, but without the reach and foregrip of a greatsword. in the Mythbusters episode where they are testing a Katana's sharpness, Kari cant even lift the bastard sword they have.

to give a better idea: A Bastard Sword is weighted so that anyone who would normally understand how to use a one handed sword would be thrown off, a Longsword can be used effectively, but not optimally, as a 1 handed weapon without as significant a loss of control of as the bastard sword.

This also ignores the fact that the bastard sword is going to be hell to lift.

[Ironlion45]

I think it's important to note that Katanas are, in real life, from a completely different martial tradition. We can't quantify them by the measures and standards of a completely different culture, or at least not easily.

The standard length Japanese sword is comparable to the length of a western arming sword. Though the length was very much not standardized, and varied greatly depending on both the era and the sword maker. Some had very long blades which we would think of as a long sword, though these are exceptionally uncommon

The Katina is meant to be used primarily with two hands. It is very much not advised to use one hand only. In medieval Japan, many would carry two swords for this very reason. A full sized sword, and a shorter sword that was easily used in only one hand; its shorter length offered better control and balance for single hand use, though at the expense of the weapon's reach (one of the most effective ways of not getting hit/sliced/stabbed by somebody is to have a weapon that is longer than theirs, so you can hit/slice/stab them without them being able to do the same).

In Europe, the long sword wasn't possible until the metallurgic technology had advanced to a point where very long blades could be made that were strong enough to withstand the punishment of combat (anybody who has had a sword fight with a stage sword will attest that poorly-made metal blades tend to chip, crack, and break very easily).

Thus the two-hardens like the iconic claymore weren't seen much until around the 14th century, and the same goes for the quintessential English Longsword. (Though ceremonial two-handers that were not intended for combat may have existed earlier).

The bastard sword seems to be a mis-understood and frequently misinterpreted term. In modern language, when we speak of a bastard sword, we are talking about the hand-and-a-half sword, referring to the length of the hilt. But this is only a modern use of the term.

Originally, the term "Bastard Sword" actually comes from a Medieval French word that meant "of uncertain origin", and it was a term used to describe irregular swords- that is to say a sword of unusual dimensions or proportions. To whit, the sword we now call "English Longsword" was in its day often referred to by the English as a bastard sword.

The term "Bastard Sword" later on came to refer generally to all very large swords. It was never really a specific term referring to a specific type of sword.

For the purposes of your role playing, I would suggest you treat your katanas in a way similar to how standard rules (I am unfamiliar with 4th edition so I can't sepak for them) treat a regular longsword (a D&D longsword, not a RL longsword!). Just add in significant penalties for one-handed use- probably to attack roll, damage, and speed factor.

For the record, the rules in some campaign settings, notably Forgotten Realms (at least in 2e) have actual Japanese-themed swords, as well as stats for them; one can be confident that those are play-tested to fit well with the standard D&D arsenal.

[Ashtagon]

Kind of a dirty question if you ask me...

I don't actually have a katana, despite the thread title. Although I did go to a show once where I saw an impressive display of their use. This was followed by some men playing a pair of giant taiko drums, and several smaller ones.

This post, despite the theoretical innuendo, it being played perfectly straight. It was at a school in Japan where I used to work as a teacher. The school's kendo club held a display of 100 students in formation doing kendo drill, except because this was PTA day and H&S laws are more of a suggestion there, they used real (modern day replica) swords for the day. And the taiko drums were just that - big thunderously loud drums.