MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[ReaderAt2046]

On the issue of MITD taking comparatively more damage (pain-wise) from the paper cut to the tongue than from anything else so far, it's also important to remember that hit points are an abstract concept that represents both your ability to survive actually getting hurt and your ability to shift stances/roll with punches/whatever in order to decrease the amount of harm that you take from blows. So Miko's attack might have easily done 30 damage, but 29 of that been "dodging and weaving" damage while only 1 was "ouchy boo-boo" damage. OTOH, the MITD's self-inflicted paper cut might have dealt only 5 damage, but all of it was "ouchy boo-boo" damage, so there's 5 times the owie.

In addition, there's the possibility that the self-inflicted nature of the wound might bypass DR the same way that it is noted to bypass natural armor in the OP. If the DR was fluffed as thick hide or tough muscles, (which actually would make sense, as sword blows bouncing off the hide would feel kind of like tickling), then it might be bypassed by MITD sticking the paper in his mouth.

For that matter, it might be that the MITD doesn't have any DR to speak of, but has a really good natural armor rating, so that all Miko's attacks just bounced off its hide or shell or whatever (which she could easily mistake for DR), but the paper cut auto-bypassed the armor.

[rweird]

For damage reduction, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a cold iron weapon (Hinjo's was and was a different color), silver, maybe. DR x/y and z is something rather common to high level monsters, pit fiends have 15/silver and good. I think everyone who is discussing DR should read through this before continuing.

I know this didn't really contribute much, but that could help.

As for mistaking natural armor for DR, it says "in any case, the creature is immediately aware that there attack was ineffective." so I don't think mistaking natural armor for DR is likely.

[The MunchKING]

I have no idea what to make of this - is there some way Miko could have been tossed like that without sustaining damage?

High monk-y saves, combined with a Paladin's power to get her saves boosted by the power of her God?

Monks also have a negate-damage-from-falls thing, IIRC, but it was both higher level and only works with stuff nearby to slow your fall.

Alternately ring of feather Fall.

[Kish]

For damage reduction, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a cold iron weapon (Hinjo's was and was a different color),

Hinjo's we've-seen-him-use-it katana is silver, he said. He also has
a cold iron katana, which he has never pulled out on-panel because he has never fought a creature he knew to have DR/cold iron on-panel.

[rweird]

Hinjo's we've-seen-him-use-it katana is silver, he said. He also has
a cold iron katana, which he has never pulled out on-panel because he has never fought a creature he knew to have DR/cold iron on-panel.

Ah, it seems I misremembered. Still, I think it'd be safe to assume Milko didn't have a Cold Iron weapon or whatever unless mentioned otherwise at some point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

After hitting the ground, and getting up - Miko seems to have suffered no damage. Also in the next panel, only Windstriker seems to be drinking a potion - and placement of the potions seems to indicate that Windstriker was drinking them at all.

That is a good catch. Particularly in the view that windstrider's fall was cushioned by Miko and he still needed potions. She may have laid hands on herself off page, but she shows no sign of damage between her fall and her horse's, either.

The scene already is unexplainable within the D&D rules, so maybe, having made his point, Rich didn't need to harp on it? The demonstration of hitting power was in the Miko-shaped hole in the wall and distance, there was no need to add battle damage to her?

They aren't good explanations, though.

Grey Wolf

[rweird]

That is a good catch. Particularly in the view that windstrider's fall was cushioned by Miko and he still needed potions. She may have laid hands on herself off page, but she shows no sign of damage between her fall and her horse's, either.

The scene already is unexplainable within the D&D rules, so maybe, having made his point, Rich didn't need to harp on it? The demonstration of hitting power was in the Miko-shaped hole in the wall and distance, there was no need to add battle damage to her?

They aren't good explanations, though.

Grey Wolf

There are some abilities (knockback comes to mind) the don't really do noticeable damage when they push you back, of course, none of the prospective MitD candidates have that. I think a dungeoncrasher with Knockback could do something like that, though no monster I know of.

[NovaeDeArx]

Your entire theory, it seems, is based on your feelings. Your feelings cannot be the basis of a rational discussion. "Sure, the (x) fits all the evidence, but it makes NovaeDeArx quesy, so sorry, can't consider it".

A fair criticism.

Okay, let's try this:

Rich has invented none of the following: Elf, Wizard, Programmed Amnesia, Tainted Sorcerer. He has, however, created V using (EDIT: two of) those templates, fitting his "fine line" statements. After all, if interpreted too strictly, any character that appears in the story (even if sticking 100% to established templates) cannot be used as it was "created for this story" just like every other character in OoTS. (Excepting, possibly, Gygax's cameo. Although Gygax-as-MitD would be so-wrong-it's-hilarious... But I digress.)

Simply to give some substance to my (admittedly far-fetched) theory, let me posit that V makes another in his series of bad decisions. He goes for the Tainted Sorcerer prestige class (and it's not like we haven't seen Elan take a prestige class) for some reason that makes sense at the time (probably the usual "paying a long-term price for a short-term gain" pattern he's established). Maybe he already has, it just happened off-screen. Not the point, though.

Let's say that the tears/gates are loops back to the world in a different time. V eventually regrets his rather poor decision, possibly due to a TPK he sets off. In order to make things right, he self-Programmed Amnesias and loops back in time with a "remember and act when..." trigger set to go off in the future to allow him to get a do-over.

Strengths:

The internal corruption caused by the class manifests itself externally if the character is on "tainted" ground, which would explain the reactions in the circus if for some reason the ground there is considered tainted... Not sure why it would be, but I don't have the book, so it's hard for me to verify.

The blood-as-a-substitute-ingredient (and metamagic enabler) characteristic of the TS could also explain the MitD's great hunger, as he is trying to replace lost blood. It could also be as simple as the "I eat because I'm lonely" explanation he himself gives, though, so food for thought? Also, many events surrounding MitD's use of powers seem to occur when another character is bloodied nearby, which is intriguing. If MitD is using a silent casting metamagic feat, it would explain the lack of visible casting.

It also explains the MitD's expectation that he just has to "hope really hard" and things happen... Unless his spell slots are expended, or whatever programming he has doesn't allow him to use too much of his own blood, etc, possibly explaining why it doesn't always work.

It's an even split whether or not the SBGHs recognized him as an elf or corrupted being of some kind, depending on the context. There's a lot of room for flexibility, also, if part of the programming is to maintain some form of illusion when exposed. The SBGHs and RC may have thought they were seeing completely different beasts.

Cons:

It's a stretch. A big one. It requires V to do an insane amount of planning ahead (behind?) and requires knowledge of events that he (currently) shouldn't know about, though that's not necessarily a barrier to him using various spells to find it out.

It also assumes V to have access to a large number of spells that he doesn't currently have. Not an absolute barrier, but pushes the plausibility envelope further.

Probably lots more that I haven't thought of, but it does address some of the "big" must-have events that any non-joke theory must align with.

Happy now? (Just kidding, I enjoy the discussion. I'm well aware that this is probably wrong, but it's fun to think of non-monster-y explanations. This just seems to be the best fit IF MitD happens to be an established character. Which is probably not the case.)

[KillItWithFire]

Vaarsuvius is not a species, Vaarsuvius is a character. If you want to put forth this template elf of yours there is no reason at all it needs to be an established character. Once you head down that route it does indeed begin to clash with the "guessable" statement for the same reason this thread dislikes templates in the first place. If you have a powerful enough templated caster who fits all the scenes and requirements by those two factors alone you can substitute "elf" with just about anything. At that point it's a shot in the dark of well near millions of creatures and I don't call that guessable by any means.

[NovaeDeArx]

Vaarsuvius is not a species, Vaarsuvius is a character. If you want to put forth this template elf of yours there is no reason at all it needs to be an established character. Once you head down that route it does indeed begin to clash with the "guessable" statement for the same reason this thread dislikes templates in the first place. If you have a powerful enough templated caster who fits all the scenes and requirements by those two factors alone you can substitute "elf" with just about anything. At that point it's a shot in the dark of well near millions of creatures and I don't call that guessable by any means.

Fair. However, I think that if Rich was going to do something like that, he'd stick only with narratively appropriate choices - no random characters, no random stack of templates, only what fits a character's choices up until now.

V's "deal with the devils" would make the TS prestige class at least remotely possible, and I doubt he'd disrespect his reader base enough to just start stacking up templates.

Also, I'm using "template" in the general term for any pre-made anything, be it class, race or prestige. Sorry about the accidental misuse; I didn't intend it as template-that-custom-modifies-an-existing-class/race/prestige, since that's been generally agreed-upon to not be an appropriate or fruitful discussion topic, and Rich almost certainly wouldn't do.

[KillItWithFire]

Fair. However, I think that if Rich was going to do something like that, he'd stick only with narratively appropriate choices - no random characters, no random stack of templates, only what fits a character's choices up until now.

V's "deal with the devils" would make the TS prestige class at least remotely possible, and I doubt he'd disrespect his reader base enough to just start stacking up templates.

Also, I'm using "template" in the general term for any pre-made anything, be it class, race or prestige. Sorry about the accidental misuse; I didn't intend it as template-that-custom-modifies-an-existing-class/race/prestige, since that's been generally agreed-upon to not be an appropriate or fruitful discussion topic, and Rich almost certainly wouldn't do.

But that starts to question when Rich intended for MitD to BECOME guessable. he originally made the statement, what, near strip 200 or so? I can't recall. Did he mean that MitD was guessable right then? Did mean MitD would be guessable in the strip immediately before he was revealed? Your guess hinges on "guessable once the soul-splice occurs" and I don't think that's quite what the statement means. Even beyond that, your proposal has a hard time in some other areas, some could name the tower scene or the escape scene, I'll try something a bit more mundane. Sleep. Vaarsuvius is incapable of it and immune to it's effects. Elves go into a trance when they need to rest and we've already seen that this facet of D&D is one OotS follow rather closely. Why then does MitD sleep so often as opposed to going into trance?

[rweird]

The thing is, people don't know the story until it is over, speculating on how the story will end and making the MitD as a combination of classes and such that make sense from that is a guess, a guess with various qualifiers, but still a guess. The idea that it is V from the future with levels in Tainted Scholar sent into the past with brain damage is not something that clues point to really, as much as "with a liberal enough interpretation, that might be possible." Its an idea, though not one with very much evidence as is, unless the MitD isn't revealed until after V goes back in time and all that (which I find unlikely), you can't figure that out, you only could guess it.

The lack of the requisite strength for the tower scene, along with any real ability to eat someone makes me think it highly unlikely anyways, besides Rich's words.

[Astral Avenger]

Has anyone considered DR X/slashing? Miko is using katana & mini-katana (both slashing weapons) and Belkar uses daggers, which iirc can be either slashing or piercing at the player's choice.

Its also possible that Miko didn't do anymore than Belkar, but Miko's attack tickled because the MitD was paying attention, while it wasn't paying attention to Belkar's attacks.

Another note, probably already discussed: in the escape scene, I recall reading someone's commentary that the MitD must be tired by the escape because it falls asleep right after that. I read it as the MitD was pretending to be asleep there.

Don't read to much into my analysis, I don't play d&d and I only skim this thread occasionally, so totally possible something I've suggested is flat out wrong/impossible/previously discussed.

[Mage Paradox]

Eh, at the start I suspect it was intended to be the child of a Tarrasaque. However I doubt it is anymore, the identity probably got retrospectively changed as the story evolved (and as many people guessed Tarrasaque).

[rweird]

Has anyone considered DR X/slashing? Miko is using katana & mini-katana (both slashing weapons) and Belkar uses daggers, which iirc can be either slashing or piercing at the player's choice.

Its also possible that Miko didn't do anymore than Belkar, but Miko's attack tickled because the MitD was paying attention, while it wasn't paying attention to Belkar's attacks.

Another note, probably already discussed: in the escape scene, I recall reading someone's commentary that the MitD must be tired by the escape because it falls asleep right after that. I read it as the MitD was pretending to be asleep there.

Don't read to much into my analysis, I don't play d&d and I only skim this thread occasionally, so totally possible something I've suggested is flat out wrong/impossible/previously discussed.

The DR would have to be /bludgeoning or something then, if they both have slashing weapons, and the DR is /slashing, they'd overcome it. While it has been considered, a lack of creatures with high DR/bludgeoning fit very well.

The sleepiness is thought to be a clue, but very few things require rest after using powers which limits options. If he pretended to be asleep (which I also can see), though that would give no more hints to what it is, just its personality (though it makes sense to pretend to be sleeping so X won't "be mean" to the MitD).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eh, at the start I suspect it was intended to be the child of a Tarrasaque. However I doubt it is anymore, the identity probably got retrospectively changed as the story evolved (and as many people guessed Tarrasaque).

That would make Rich both a liar and a terrible writer, both of which I will vehemently deny.

GW

[Savannah]

Has anyone considered DR X/slashing? Miko is using katana & mini-katana (both slashing weapons) and Belkar uses daggers, which iirc can be either slashing or piercing at the player's choice.

DR / slashing means that their weapons WOULD do damage. What follows the slash is what is able to bypass the DR.

Eh, at the start I suspect it was intended to be the child of a Tarrasaque. However I doubt it is anymore, the identity probably got retrospectively changed as the story evolved (and as many people guessed Tarrasaque).

That would be incredibly unfair, given his comment that he's been dropping clues since he decided what the MitD was. I don't think Rich is a jerk like that.

Edit: yeesh, what is with me and ninjas on this thread today?

[KillItWithFire]

Eh, at the start I suspect it was intended to be the child of a Tarrasaque. However I doubt it is anymore, the identity probably got retrospectively changed as the story evolved (and as many people guessed Tarrasaque).

At the start I suspect it was simply "A powerful thing that will never have a real identity." Once he decided to make the comic more serious and less of a joke a day comic he decided on a creature for it. After all, in a gag-a-day it works if the creature has a short appearance as the superweapon that's too lazy and inept to do any superweaponing but once it becomes a character you'll need to flush it out more.

[Mage Paradox]

That would make Rich both a liar and a terrible writer, both of which I will vehemently deny.

GW

It wouldn't make Rich a liar, because his comments do not say that the MiTD always had the same identity, merely that (from the time he posted it) that there was now a specific identity. I believe him when he says he didn't change it after that point, I just feel like originally it was going to be a Tarrasaque cub.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

At the start I suspect it was simply "A powerful thing that will never have a real identity."

No need to suspect it, Rich said as much in the WaXP commentary (see OP): "Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. "

Edit:

It wouldn't make Rich a liar, because his comments do not say that the MiTD always had the same identity, merely that (from the time he posted it) that there was now a specific identity. I believe him when he says he didn't change it after that point, I just feel like originally it was going to be a Tarrasaque cub.

On the contrary, from the very same commentary:
"Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since."

Changing what MitD is halfway through just because someone figured it out in the forums would make that a lie, and Rich a terrible writer who can't accept that if his clues are good enough, someone figured out the puzzle.

GW

[Mage Paradox]

Nobody said halfway through was when the change happened.

[KillItWithFire]

No need to suspect it, Rich said as much in the WaXP commentary (see OP): "Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. "

Edit:


On the contrary, from the very same commentary:
"Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since."

Changing what MitD is halfway through just because someone figured it out in the forums would make that a lie, and Rich a terrible writer who can't accept that if his clues are good enough, someone figured out the puzzle.

GW

Agreed. Changing the answer just so you can prove the guesser wrong means there was never a reason to play the game in the first place and since it seems like Rich was encouraging the game it would be incredibly petty and self-detrimental to let his fanbase to control his story like that.

EDIT: even still, why do you feel that MitD's first identity MUST have been a juvenile tarrasque? I mean the burden of proof would be on you there we have no reason to believe MitD's identity is anything but consistent since strip 100 and so any claim to the contrary will need to back itself up.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nobody said halfway through was when the change happened.

Actually, you just did:

Eh, at the start I suspect it was intended to be the child of a Tarrasaque. However I doubt it is anymore, the identity probably got retrospectively changed as the story evolved (and as many people guessed Tarrasaque).

Rich's quote above, that was in the OP that you were politely required to read to not make me have to go through this over and over clearly points out that MitD went from "no actual species, just something in the darkness" to "a specific species that Rich has had in mind and given clues for". That does not allow for MitD to have been a Tarrasque at any point, unless it still is a Tarrasque.

Grey Wolf

[Mage Paradox]

Where is the word halfway?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where is the word halfway?

Semantics; implied in your words. According to them, Rich changed what MitD when "many people guessed Tarrasaque". Since that would require the forum, and the forum didn't exist at story start, it must have happened in the middle, or "halfway" through the story.

GW

[AgentPaper]

Ok, I want to turn this discussion towards the darkness surrounding MitD. It's a pretty big part of his character, since that's obviously the only way we've seen him, and I think it hasn't been examined closely enough. What we have now:

"As per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind)"

It's established that the darkness around MitD is magical in nature, and that he can "leap out" of them. I think those are fine conclusions, however, I'd suggest that the darkness itself is not something cast upon him, IE by Xykon, but rather a natural ability of MitD himself. Specifically, an ability that shrouds him in magical darkness as long as he is in shadowy illumination. As evidence:

1) We've never seen anyone cast a spell upon MitD.

This could easily be explained by "it happened off-panel", but it's important to establish that there is no positive proof that MitD is specifically under the effects of the Darkness spell or something similar cast by someone else.

2) MitD can move around under the umbrella, but can "jump out" of the shadows.

If Darkness were cast on MitD himself, then he wouldn't be able to jump out of them at all. If, however, his darkness was created only when he himself was in shadowy illumination (for example, the shade created by a normal umbrella), then he could jump out of them by simply moving out of the shadowy area.

3) The darkness surrounding MitD is very short-ranged.

The Darkness spell has a radius of 20 feet, while MitD's darkness has a much smaller radius. This rules out the possibility that the umbrella had Darkness cast upon it, since otherwise it would also have made it impossible to see anyone near him as well. Darkness also has a fairly short duration, and would need to be cast a few times per day, even by a caster of Xykon's level. Deeper Darkness has a much longer duration, but also has an even larger radius, so it's also fairly unlikely.

I feel I should also mention Armor of Darkness, which fits the area of effect perfectly, but also has the short duration, and even worse, is a cleric spell unique to the Darkness domain, meaning Xykon certainly couldn't cast it and Redcloak probably couldn't either.

4) MitD needs an umbrella to keep him hidden.

If MitD had Darkness cast upon him, he wouldn't need his umbrella when walking around outside, since the Darkness spell works just fine even in bright light; only magical light can pierce it.

5) MitD wanted the Lantern Archons to hit him with rays of light.

The Lantern Archon doesn't have any special ability that dispels magical darkness. However, if all they needed to do was provide normal illumination to cause the spell to stop being active, then it would work.

I'll admit that this last argument is a bit tentative, since the rules involved aren't completely clear to me, and MitD might have just been mistaken, but I think it's still worth mentioning as a possible clue.


I don't think the argument here is quite strong enough to preclude any monsters that don't have some sort of aura of darkness, but I do think it should be taken into consideration as a qualifier, and certainly an ideal candidate should have some way of explaining the darkness.

[Mage Paradox]

Clearly you read the wrong implication into it though, since I didn't mean that when I wrote it. It's news to me the forums didn't exist around issue 100-ish

[Steven]

I'm having a bit of trouble following your logic Mage Paradox:
If you're saying that you suspected the MitD was a Tarrasaque cub before strip 100 then I suppose you're right on the basis that Rich didn't know what it was, see what GreyWolf posted about it, so it's like a kind of Schrodinger's Powerful Monster in that it could have been a Tarrasaque cub or a Giant Space hamster or a Vampire Moose or, or, or....

If you're saying that sometime after strip 100 Rich changed the type of monster then unless it was before he dropped any hints it then either Rich would have had to a: Find a different monster that fits ALL the clues given prior to the change in addition to any extra abilities he wants it to have or b: some of the clues are void and therefore he is misleading us if not exactly lying.

Option a, depending on when he changed his mind, would be pretty hard to do considering how hard it is for us to find ONE monster that can do this stuff and option b.... I don't think Rich would do that. I'd HOPE he wouldn't do that.

[KillItWithFire]

It's also all meaningless conjecture as the point of the thread is to figure out what MitD is NOW. Changed or not in the past is irrelevant. While it's unlikely Rich ever changed MitD's identity after coming up with it let's assume he did. Does this information in anyway help us decide what he is now? It's useless to argue whether Rich did or did not change it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Clearly you read the wrong implication into it though, since I didn't mean that when I wrote it. It's news to me the forums didn't exist around issue 100-ish

I cannot answer what you meant, only what you actually posted. You said that Rich went through this process:

MitD didn't exist -> MitD was no particular species -> Rich decided it was going to be a baby Tarrasque -> many people in the forum guessed that (which, again, requires both a forum, and many people guessing at MitD's species. This didn't happen before strip #100) -> Rich changed MitD to something else because too many people guessed it.

Since Rich tells us that the process was:
MitD was no particular species -> Strip #100 -> MitD is fully defined and unchanging

You are implying he lied to us when he made that declaration, and that he is a hack writer that must change a story to preserve the mystery.

Ok, I want to turn this discussion towards the darkness surrounding MitD. It's a pretty big part of his character, since that's obviously the only way we've seen him, and I think it hasn't been examined closely enough. What we have now:

<snip>

I'm looking forward to whatever comes out of this revisit of the topic; I agree it is probably about time.

Two more points to consider: in Dorukan's dungeon, MitD staid behind the throne throughout the fight. This was not in his orders, unless the darkness was immobile (he was told to stay in the darkness, not behind the throne. If the darkness moved with him, he could move around the battlefield).

The idea that MitD generates a low-level field of darkness that can be dispelled with natural light has been brought up before. I still feel that if he generates the field, Xykon's orders would've been phrased differently, but I would love to hear other takes on the topic (especially when it is presented in such a clear manner, btw. Thanks, AgentPaper).

Grey Wolf