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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    FWIW, oak is over 50% heavier than plain old spruce, and hardwood is a real PITA to work with when you want to build something like a box. (Way more likely to have a hardwood plank crack when driving a nail through it, and that's assuming you have a STR high enough to even manage to drive them in!)
    I'll freely admit that my closest brush with carpentry is IKEA products, so I'll take your word that oak might not be appropriate. In my defence, I'll say that I googled a bit to try and figure out what wood to pick, and I found somewhere that mine carts are made from oak, thus why I picked that material.

    But even if I drop the weight by 33%, and then halve it to represent a weak box (non-reinforced, even though that's not what the comic shows), we are still at almost 300 pounds for the box (278, to be precise). MitD is unlikely to weight 22 pounds, unless he is buoyant.

    This makes the hardest kind of sense. Picture that box in real life, i.e. a wooden cell taller than you, broader than a door and twice as long. There is no way an average human is going to be able to lift it even empty.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    FWIW, oak is over 50% heavier than plain old spruce, and hardwood is a real PITA to work with when you want to build something like a box. (Way more likely to have a hardwood plank crack when driving a nail through it, and that's assuming you have a STR high enough to even manage to drive them in!)
    Actually, I wouldn't put it past them to use oak for a box like that. Especially if they are trying to keep something strong it in, like a monster. Yes, spruce or pine is lighter and softer, and therefore easier to work with.....however oak gives you the overall strength of the wood as well as the heaviness of it for big projects, like building a box for the sole reason of keeping a big, nasty monster in it. Knowledge of this? I have been a carpenter for 10-11 years now


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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    This is all very good logic, however when you add the cart into the mix that changes things. Not being one that is good with numbers, or science for that matter, I can't explain the mechanics behind this, but say you were to drag a lifeless body with your own two hands. This would take much more strength than if you were to put said body into a cart and pull the cart. Because the cart takes off some of the weight for you, which is why we invented them in the first place. So, really, while you are very much on the correct road, you stopped too soon. Keep going down that road........

    Two medium creature with Str 13 could carry 300lbs......good start. However, 300lbs isn't the approximate weight of MitD, since the Cart itself takes some of the MitD's weight off of the hands of the two creatures carrying it, and applies it to itself. Of course, like I said, I do not know a formula for that, but MitD, given your scenario, Gandariel, would actually weigh more than 300 lbs.
    Frink: "Yes, over here, [...] in Episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, my dear, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian! Please do explain it!
    Lucy Lawless: Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.
    OK, a bit specious, but this is a traveling circus that has access to magic. Are there any enchantments place-able on objects like the box that would make it weigh a lot less, regardless of what's in it? If they keep it in a heavy box and he's heavy then they'd need to use their strong-men to move him - not very convenient. (At first I was going to say the cart is enchanted, but I remember he had to lift it on the cart by himself.)

    Just throwing it out as a thought-bubble. While it seems possible to me I'm not a player that would know for sure. And yes, they may have stronger humanoids we haven't seen that aren't inconvenient to use - the point is could the box be enchanted?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    OK, a bit specious, but this is a traveling circus that has access to magic. Are there any enchantments place-able on objects like the box that would make it weigh a lot less, regardless of what's in it? If they keep it in a heavy box and he's heavy then they'd need to use their strong-men to move him - not very convenient. (At first I was going to say the cart is enchanted, but I remember he had to lift it on the cart by himself.)

    Just throwing it out as a thought-bubble. While it seems possible to me I'm not a player that would know for sure. And yes, they may have stronger humanoids we haven't seen that aren't inconvenient to use - the point is could the box be enchanted?
    The standard D&D spell to help carry large weights with magic is Tenser's Floating Disk. It wasn't used in either situation, and from the name I think it is wizard-only (i.e. not clerical). Now, I am not well versed in splatbook magic, but D&D is not too expansive in non-fighting spells, in general. Players are more interested in ways to get rid of the monsters guarding the piles of treasure than in the mechanics of moving said treasure afterwards.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Levitate can be cast on objects. its a second level spell so min caster level is 3-4 (wiz or sorc) and it can lift 100 lbs per level (so minimum 300 pounds). it can only lift up or down, but then you can push the lifted object along weightlessly in any horizontal direction.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    Levitate can be cast on objects. its a second level spell so min caster level is 3-4 (wiz or sorc) and it can lift 100 lbs per level (so minimum 300 pounds). it can only lift up or down, but then you can push the lifted object along weightlessly in any horizontal direction.
    For how long? Can it be made permanent?

    Thanks,

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    For how long? Can it be made permanent?

    Thanks,

    Grey Wolf
    lasts 1 minute per level, and its not listed under permanency the spell, but I'm sure there's some Wondrous item out there for it, and as permanency states you can make other spells permanent if you research them.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    Levitate can be cast on objects. its a second level spell so min caster level is 3-4 (wiz or sorc) and it can lift 100 lbs per level (so minimum 300 pounds). it can only lift up or down, but then you can push the lifted object along weightlessly in any horizontal direction.
    Was there a wizard/sorc in the scene with the box? I ask because I really don't remember.


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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    lasts 1 minute per level, and its not listed under permanency the spell, but I'm sure there's some Wondrous item out there for it, and as permanency states you can make other spells permanent if you research them.
    Pity, for a moment I hoped I had a good reason to ignore the scene.

    To recoup:
    • RC is a cleric, and doesn't have access to levitation, so he can't have cast it
    • A circus isn't going to use a Wondrous item just to levitate a box
    • I doubt the circus has in payroll a spellcaster of high enough level and with enough resources to research a permanent levitation spell.


    This leaves that such a spellcaster exists in the world, and charges people to cast the spell on their stuff - that is the kind of mundane utility magic never seems to be put to in fantasy worlds (kind of why anyone would even bother manufacturing torches when a light spell effectively lasts forever). While this is possible if unheard of, we know that the dessert traders would rather use a belt of ogre strength to unload heavy stuff than pay for this theoretical permanent levitation spell, so I think the most likely scenario is that no such spell is easily available (alternatively, the one guy that sells it is on a different continent, but if you could make a living out of it, he'd have expanded to all major trade routes by now).

    So, all in all, I think we can pretty much assume that, unless there is a cleric spell that does the same thing, no such spell was in use in those scenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    Was there a wizard/sorc in the scene with the box? I ask because I really don't remember.
    No, RC was sneaking MitD off on his own.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    FWIW, oak is over 50% heavier than plain old spruce, and hardwood is a real PITA to work with when you want to build something like a box. (Way more likely to have a hardwood plank crack when driving a nail through it, and that's assuming you have a STR high enough to even manage to drive them in!)
    Just had to chime in here. While it's true that oak is really, really heavy, you can nail it easily by drilling holes first. In fact, you're kind of asking for a split in any wood (though hardwoods are naturally quite a bit worse) by driving a large nail without drilling first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Stats of the Snarl:
    HP: Lots.
    Armor Class: Can't touch this.
    Saving Throws: Yes.
    Attack: Successful - undoes target.
    Challenge Rating: Too high.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    I was re-reading my copy of SoD and... i'm not sure if this has been noted entirely.
    I see on the first post that you already counted the fact that Redcloak alone was able to drag the Box on a cart.
    This is hardly conclusive, since we don't know Redcloak's stats.

    on the last page, though, we see two goblin zombies carrying the box.

    (...)

    Of the two, the former sounds more reasonable (the army can't move at a speed of 5 feet/round).
    So, two Medium* charachters with Str 13 can carry 300 lbs, which should be a rough estimate of the weight of the MitD (plus the cart)

    I know these numbers can be wildly incorrect (the giant doesn't care much for carrying capacities, and he uses Medium-sized goblins which might have different stats) but i think it can drive us away from Tarrasques, at least :P

    * i used the normal stats of goblins (this one), and then treated them as if they were Medium-sized.
    I came into that convo halfway through and didn't understand what the discussion was but saw a question I thought I could answer. then I got curious about the response so i looked back and found this.

    I gotta say I like the second version better actually, if we're using this. Even though an army wouldn't normally move at 5 feet per round by dnd rules, there's nothing illogical about traveling slowly with something heavy and a lot of supplies to move (5ft every 6 seconds is 50 feet in a minute, not a downright terrible pace in the real world.), which would double the zombie capacity to 600 pounds, giving a lot more flexibility for the box materials and the weight of Mitd.

    You are also talking about how the box was likely reinforced for keeping the monster trapped, but I really don't think they would bother. Maybe when he first arrived at the circus, yeah, but after a while it dons on them that the monster would never try to escape, and that a box like that is real heavy. Plus if any of the circus folk accidentally set him off at any point they would realize that any box wouldn't really be able to hold him, after all he can lightly tap people straight through fortified stone walls. The solution? Be vaguely nice to the monster and put him in the cheapest, lightest weight box you can find.

    I'm thinking medieval cardboard here. so a cart plus a very light duty box weighs like 50 pounds at the outside most, leaving 550 for the monster inside.

    As for RC lifting it, maybe its actually a lot lighter than that, or maybe he cast Bull's Strength on himself off camera? We don't know his domains (do we?), he could have feat of strength (unlikely but not impossible) for some extra boost.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    As for RC lifting it, maybe its actually a lot lighter than that, or maybe he cast Bull's Strength on himself off camera? We don't know his domains (do we?), he could have feat of strength (unlikely but not impossible) for some extra boost.
    Law and Destruction. I see no reason why he couldn't have used Bull's Strenght. He could also have a handful of lesser magic items to help him carry MitD.
    Last edited by Kondziu; 2012-09-04 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Well, it looks to me pretty much like roadrunner cartoon physics. So, my opinion is that we can't deduce anything about RC's strength, the box's weight, or MitD's weight from that scene, because it's just silly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    Stats of the Snarl:
    HP: Lots.
    Armor Class: Can't touch this.
    Saving Throws: Yes.
    Attack: Successful - undoes target.
    Challenge Rating: Too high.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    You are also talking about how the box was likely reinforced for keeping the monster trapped
    No, I say the box is reinforced because it is reinforced: metal braces on the corners. I don't wonder why they used a reinforced cage when it would hold MitD no better than a cardboard one. It might be the one that they had available for dangerous beasts in the circus, and used it because they had nothing better. The box has metal bars and metal rivets, so it falls in the broad category of reinforced. That carries with it other characteristics such as 2" thickness.

    Edit: And I should add: if the box was cardboard-like, and MitD in the 500 lb. range, he would break through the bottom when lifted.

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    As for RC lifting it, maybe its actually a lot lighter than that, or maybe he cast Bull's Strength on himself off camera? We don't know his domains (do we?), he could have feat of strength (unlikely but not impossible) for some extra boost.
    Again, RC has not once showed any inclination to use any form of martial weapon. He is by evidence a caster-only cleric. While it is not impossible that a goblin god of war would have the strength domain, RC of all people does not seem to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondziu View Post
    Law and Destruction. I see no reason why he couldn't have used Bull's Strenght. He could also have a handful of lesser magic items to help him carry MitD.
    Please, can I get an explanation of what the spell does (can't access d20 at work)?

    That said, why would RC have any strength boosting items? he is not melee. He would never have an use for them. We also have no evidence he does, and he'd need a very big boost to get even close to lifting that box in the first place.

    Edit: for the record, I'm with Bulldog Psion on this one. Nevertheless, I still want to make sure we examine this situation to its ultimate conclusion (including how much strength RC would need in the first place to make it plausible) just for thoroughness' sake.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-09-04 at 12:33 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Bull's strenght gives a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Str.
    2nd level spell, on the cleric's list.

    Anyways, redcloak isn't lifting the box.
    he has lifted one side (maybe he asked the Mitd to stand on the other side first), then pushed the box on the cart.
    This counts as dragging, since one side of the cart is still on the ground.
    this qualifies as 5x max load, so Redcloak could do it.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, I say the box is reinforced because it is reinforced: metal braces on the corners. I don't wonder why they used a reinforced cage when it would hold MitD no better than a cardboard one. It might be the one that they had available for dangerous beasts in the circus, and used it because they had nothing better. The box has metal bars and metal rivets, so it falls in the broad category of reinforced. That carries with it other characteristics such as 2" thickness.

    Edit: And I should add: if the box was cardboard-like, and MitD in the 500 lb. range, he would break through the bottom when lifted.

    Grey Wolf
    Hmmm...the metal braces that look suspiciously like packing tape?

    I kid I guess, having taken a look at the box again I have to agree it does look pretty reinforced, and of course I can't counter that he would burst right out the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Bull's strenght gives a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Str.
    2nd level spell, on the cleric's list.

    Anyways, redcloak isn't lifting the box.
    he has lifted one side (maybe he asked the Mitd to stand on the other side first), then pushed the box on the cart.
    This counts as dragging, since one side of the cart is still on the ground.
    this qualifies as 5x max load, so Redcloak could do it.
    Good catch!

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Anyways, redcloak isn't lifting the box.
    he has lifted one side (maybe he asked the Mitd to stand on the other side first), then pushed the box on the cart.
    This counts as dragging, since one side of the cart is still on the ground.
    this qualifies as 5x max load, so Redcloak could do it.
    Off the top of my head, I disagree with both the physics of this and the rules explanation for it, but I'll have to check d20 extensively to double check that I can build up a case against this reasoning, so hopefully I will get some time tonight to marshal my arguments.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Please, can I get an explanation of what the spell does (can't access d20 at work)?
    +4 Strenght, 1 min/lvl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That said, why would RC have any strength boosting items? he is not melee. He would never have an use for them. We also have no evidence he does, and he'd need a very big boost to get even close to lifting that box in the first place.
    Well, I just wanted to provide the information. But I can see RC preparing for busting MitD, thoroughly (he's lawful, after all). I honestly have no idea what level he was at that point of SoD, but I don't think getting a few cheap magic items for the sole purpose of sneaking MitD out of there would be outside of his abilities. We also don't know what kind of enhancements (if any) does The Crimson Mantle provide. Plus, he's having great trouble with lifting the box ("(...) I'm breaking my back (...)"), and I wouldn't classify moving it on the cart as carrying.

    Bottom line: I don't think it can tell us anything useful, but I also don't think Redcloak couldn't have done it.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondziu View Post
    +4 Strenght, 1 min/lvl.


    Well, I just wanted to provide the information. But I can see RC preparing for busting MitD, thoroughly (he's lawful, after all). I honestly have no idea what level he was at that point of SoD, but I don't think getting a few cheap magic items for the sole purpose of sneaking MitD out of there would be outside of his abilities. We also don't know what kind of enhancements (if any) does The Crimson Mantle provide. Plus, he's having great trouble with lifting the box ("(...) I'm breaking my back (...)"), and I wouldn't classify moving it on the cart as carrying.

    Bottom line: I don't think it can tell us anything useful, but I also don't think Redcloak couldn't have done it.
    I agree with all of that.

    Especially the bit on the Crimson Mantle powers, since all we really know is that it slows aging and makes him immune to diseases. but of course that is a discussion for somewhere else...

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Off the top of my head, I disagree with both the physics of this and the rules explanation for it, but I'll have to check d20 extensively to double check that I can build up a case against this reasoning, so hopefully I will get some time tonight to marshal my arguments.

    GW
    Rules are rules, and ok. Let's talk physics.
    The Mitd stands on one side of the thing, Redcloak has an easier time lifting the other side.
    He holds it there with a stone or something.
    he pushes there the cart.
    he stops the wheels of the cart.
    he pushes the box up. (Maybe he also asks Mitd to go on the upper side of it).

    In every step the box is being dragged, and never lifted. Should i explain better? i know not everyone has the same thinking pattern, do you want me to draw something ?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondziu View Post
    Well, I just wanted to provide the information. But I can see RC preparing for busting MitD, thoroughly (he's lawful, after all)
    Why would him being lawful make any impact on how prepared he was for a theft?

    ...

    Actually, don't answer that. I can accept that he would prepare himself in advance just because he is a planner, and I don't want a "what does lawful mean" discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondziu View Post
    I honestly have no idea what level he was at that point of SoD, but I don't think getting a few cheap magic items for the sole purpose of sneaking MitD out of there would be outside of his abilities.
    At this point he is away from his regular lair, effectively on holidays, IIRC. So he would be limited to the amount of money he happens to be carrying, and the items available in a poor goblin community, so he would be quite limited in the number and quality of items he could buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondziu View Post
    We also don't know what kind of enhancements (if any) does The Crimson Mantle provide.
    As I have argued, if the Mantle gave any kind of strength improvement, RC would have at least picked up a melee weapon by now to make the best out of the improvement. He hasn't. The evidence, too, suggests that the Mantle mostly gives knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondziu View Post
    Bottom line: I don't think it can tell us anything useful, but I also don't think Redcloak couldn't have done it.
    As I said, I will need some time to counter this, but even if I agree that he's not lifting but pushing, I still want some hard numbers on this. If we assume that he has strength 12 (base 8 + 4 from bull's strength), and that he is indeed pushing and not lifting (i.e. x5), what is the maximum weight he can lift? And what base strength would he need to lift 1350 pounds (850 lb box weight + 500 lb MitD)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Rules are rules, and ok. Let's talk physics.
    The Mitd stands on one side of the thing, Redcloak has an easier time lifting the other side.
    He holds it there with a stone or something.
    he pushes there the cart.
    he stops the wheels of the cart.
    he pushes the box up. (Maybe he also asks Mitd to go on the upper side of it).

    In every step the box is being dragged, and never lifted. Should i explain better? i know not everyone has the same thinking pattern, do you want me to draw something ?
    Oh, I know what you mean. At some point the box still needs to leave the ground to be lifted onto the cart, and at another point the same for the other end. If MitD fills the box (likely, if he is large, which is the size of most suggestions*), there is no moving him around - he can be assumed to always be averagely distributed. That's the physics of it.

    The rules of it is if pushing x5 is specified as "along the ground". Since RC didn't use an inclined plane, the rules may simply not apply. Thus, why I need time to investigate this and not just pull it out of my brain (or worse, my rear end, thinking I remember correctly).

    To be clear: I'm not discounting your argument. I just need to double check it.

    Grey Wolf

    *Most suggestions that still manage to fit in the box and RC has a chance to lift, that is. While you could cram a Huge creature into the box, we'd be talking about tons rather than pounds at that point and that is likely impossible. We don't get that many normal-sized suggestions that have the required strength, unsurprisingly
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-09-04 at 01:49 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    OK, then, there's a big difference depending on wether the weight is distributed or not. I think the Mitd has **some** space to move, so it can stand on one side or another. But your position is entirely reasonable too, so there's no clear answer
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    OK, then, there's a big difference depending on wether the weight is distributed or not. I think the Mitd has **some** space to move, so it can stand on one side or another. But your position is entirely reasonable too, so there's no clear answer
    Fair enough. We can call it a day if you want. I still might try to cobble together some hard numbers, just for completion's sake, but the problem with this argument line is that, as you notice, quickly becomes circular: we started trying to use the weight to figure out a size for MitD, and we now have ended using MitD's size to figure out the weight. This is because the other key number, RC's actual strength, is also missing from the input, and one ends up depending on the other to figure out the numbers.

    My own feeling is that the empty box is already too heavy, but admittedly that was before factoring bull's strength into the equation.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    He could still shift his weight by leaning against the inside, causing the outer edge of the box on that side to bear more of his weight than the rest of the floor, as long as the box was slightly tilted (which it probably would be if he leaned against it).
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    He could still shift his weight by leaning against the inside, causing the outer edge of the box on that side to bear more of his weight than the rest of the floor, as long as the box was slightly tilted (which it probably would be if he leaned against it).
    This is "light hitting" MitD. If he tried to do that, he might end tipping the box on its side. On the other hand, he did manage to do that to hook the bucket on the rivet.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Sorry for the slightly off-topic drift... ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    Actually, I wouldn't put it past them to use oak for a box like that. Especially if they are trying to keep something strong it in, like a monster. Yes, spruce or pine is lighter and softer, and therefore easier to work with.....however oak gives you the overall strength of the wood as well as the heaviness of it for big projects, like building a box for the sole reason of keeping a big, nasty monster in it. Knowledge of this? I have been a carpenter for 10-11 years now
    Yes, but again... when you consider the possibility of using oak, and pause to think about the pros and cons, then you'll likely just end up using thicker pine or spruce.

    If I set you loose in some D&D World next to an ancient mixed forest and with rudimentary medieval-ish tools (handsaw, hammer, nails), telling you that I want a sturdy box ready when I'll come back tomorrow, I'm pretty sure you won't go the oak route, especially knowing you're a carpenter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    Just had to chime in here. While it's true that oak is really, really heavy, you can nail it easily by drilling holes first. In fact, you're kind of asking for a split in any wood (though hardwoods are naturally quite a bit worse) by driving a large nail without drilling first.
    Sure, if you have an arcane caster around that has Summon Electric Drill or Create Little Holes on their spell list and prepared.

    Which begs the question... if you have an arcane caster around, why the hell would you spend time and energy to build a stupid, easily breakable wooden box? Surely you've got much better options.




    [Of course, again, let me state that I'm fully aware it doesn't change in the slightest way the argument that the box + MitD would have to be so heavy that there's no conclusion to be drawn there.]
    Last edited by lio45; 2012-09-04 at 02:27 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Sure, if you have an arcane caster around that has Summon Electric Drill or Create Little Holes on their spell list and prepared.
    Drills are not a modern invention. They don't require a handy magician just to make holes in wood planks. The technology has been in use since prehistory.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-09-04 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Sure, if you have an arcane caster around that has Summon Electric Drill or Create Little Holes on their spell list and prepared.
    Hand-drills are not exactly advanced.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Drills are not a modern invention. They don't require a handy magician just to make holes in wood planks. The technology has been in use since prehistory.

    GW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Hand-drills are not exactly advanced.

    Yes, but with a hand-drill, it's a lot of work... for EVERY single nail... when you have wood types readily available that DON'T have that annoying requirement.

    I guarantee you that no one has to pre-drill holes when building wooden crates, boxes, and pallets.


    And seriously, have any of you ever tried to hand-drill a hole through hardwood? Try it once, and then tell me with a straight face that you'd rather choose to go the hardwood route to build a complete box. ;)


    At least with an electric drill handy, you could maybe justify using oak...
    Last edited by lio45; 2012-09-04 at 02:46 PM. Reason: typo
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