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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Gunsforhands View Post
    ...actually, are there even rules for monster weights?
    Yes. There are general guidelines for monster weights by size category, and it's not uncommon for specific monster entries to give a weight.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDancer View Post
    I have to admit, while I am enjoying reading all of this discussion of wood and theoretical construction, I am very much puzzled as to why the focus has been so much on real world physics, based on real world history. D&D is set and flavored around a certain time frame in real world history, but it differs dramatically from that time frame because of magic. There is magic armor, magic weapons, and magic items that all operate differently than their real life counterparts would. I feel that assuming there is some kind of magic involved with presumably experienced hunters capturing a high level monster makes sense, and that they would have the resources to own a more expensive, potentially lightweight yet sturdy cage than novice hunters would makes sense as well.
    I have only sought to provide missing data for the discussion, specially for Grey Wolf as the curator. He included Strength enhancement bonus for calculations and the highest estimated total Strength score Redcloak could have without aid of enchanted items was 12. With this spell it could be up to 14, albeit duration of this spell is ten times shorter. But I thought 7 rounds would be enough to perform the actions in question, so I wrote that post.
    Last edited by miri; 2012-09-08 at 01:11 AM. Reason: typo

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    What we can learn then is that RC have access to strength buffs, or that the giant made it easy for himself? Is there anything that support one view over the other?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by miri View Post
    I have only sought to provide missing data for the discussion, specially for Grey Wolf as the curator. He included Strength enhancement bonus for calculations and the highest estimated total Strength score Redcloak could have without aid of enchanted items was 12. With this spell it could be up to 14, albeit duration of this spell is ten times shorter. But I thought 7 rounds would be enough to perform the actions in question, so I wrote that post.
    It was a good point. (I'm surprised that spell, Divine Power, hadn't been the one considered in the place of Bull's Strength, since the object is to put the most conservative cap possible on MitD's weight -- to do that, we want to take the highest possible STR for a non-melee RC, the lightest "sturdy enough for a cage" wood, and the best buffs likely available.)


    [FWIW, my roleplaying hasn't been done in the D&D system for a decade... my group and I prefer the Star Wars game mechanics (and setting) instead. I'm far from being D&D-illiterate, but I'm definitely not the right person to point out there's a better STR-boosting Divine spell out there than Bull's Strength.]




    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore
    What we can learn then is that RC have access to strength buffs, or that the giant made it easy for himself? Is there anything that support one view over the other?
    Of course there is, and it's been pointed out already by at least a handful of thread participants: if you've been following the comic, you'll have noticed that things in the comic's mortal plane tend to obey the of rules real world physics except in a very local, scene-centric way, when it's for humor.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    [...] because [physics] generally applies in-comic, and RC lifting that crate is not a scene that has any reason to be exempt from the exigences of the laws of physics.


    The following in only my personal opinion, but here it is:
    I don't believe the Giant could think of, plan, and draw a scene where RC is lifting a crate containing an extremely heavy monster without realizing somewhere in the process, "hey, wait a minute, there's no way RC could possibly do that!" and modify/re-draw the panel so the scene now works.

    After all, he's on record saying he's already wasting too many panels to make sure he satisfies a certain subset of readers... That documented attitude of his would be IMO quite incompatible with him drawing RC lifting something he couldn't possibly hope to make budge, and saying "what the hell, I say he lifts that so he does".

    (Edit: Especially considering that Rich is well aware that he's told his readership that MitD is supposed to be guessable... so taking that kind of liberties with MitD scenes should be an even bigger no-no than usual for him.)


    So, the signs point out to "it's a serious scene, and conclusions drawn from it should be valid".
    Last edited by lio45; 2012-09-08 at 09:41 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    A thought that just struck me: it's entirely possible that MitD made himself lighter for Redcloak to carry, isn't it? Some of our FBS suggestions have some serious abilities to choose from, and it isn't inconceivable that MitD would unconsciously use one to help his new friend.

    Not incredibly likely, but possible, and worth keeping in mind.

    Edit: Nevermind me and my silly suggestions, then, heh. I should go back and reread SoD; clearly I've forgotten a lot.
    Last edited by Sorator; 2012-09-08 at 01:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorator View Post
    A thought that just struck me: it's entirely possible that MitD made himself lighter for Redcloak to carry, isn't it?
    No, it is not. If he wanted to help, he'd have broken out of the box and walked away with RC. In fact, RC calls him out on this when MitD refuses to leave with him, which is why RC has to steal him cage and all.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    The weight thing also may be a con to things that naturally levitate such as the Gibbering Orb, though I can't find any creature on the FBS list that naturally does, though the neothilid can levitate with psionic powers.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    The weight thing also may be a con to things that naturally levitate
    Not sure why you'd think that. The problem is finding creatures that are light enough, since the box is easily way too heavy for RC even when empty.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I suppose so.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    The Demon Roach's comment in the 11th panel of this(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) comic strikes me as odd. Is there any reason to believe this is a clue to narrowing down what the MitD could be?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAvocado View Post
    The Demon Roach's comment in the 11th panel of this(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) comic strikes me as odd. Is there any reason to believe this is a clue to narrowing down what the MitD could be?
    Errr... no? In that, how is pointing out an obvious MitD characteristic a clue? We already know MitD doesn't know what he is, and some of his guesses are ludicrous ("Maybe I'm a kobold" "You're too tall for a kobold" "Maybe I'm two kobolds").

    How are you interpreting it?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    In this case it seems more of an indicator of not WHAT he is and more that he isn't even sure that he is himself (by identity, not creature classification). He says he is pretty sure he is himself and the demon roach says he has been wrong before.

    I was asking if this is an indicator towards a monster who can shapechange/somehow change identity or body/amnesia, or is it just a throwaway joke?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAvocado View Post
    He says he is pretty sure he is himself and the demon roach says he has been wrong before.
    No, he says that he wouldn't go face Xykon in his current state even if he was him (as opposed to "I wouldn't do that if I were you" meaning a fairly squishy non-melee cleric). MitD is tough, so even considering he is in far less danger from Xykon than RC, he still wouldn't go in.

    Then the joke reaches its punchline, in that while MitD knows that RC is a squishy cleric, he isn't really all that certain of what he is, and for all he knows, he could be as squishy as RC when facing Xykon due to some characteristic of his species, which he is ignorant of. The roach only reinforces the point that MitD has reasons to think he would be safe, but has been wrong about self-identity circumstances before.

    At this point, one is reminded of the adage about explaining jokes being like dissecting a frog: no-one really likes to do it, and the frog dies. At any rate, I see no reason to stretch that scene into a clue of his species that is not better served by other instances of the comic.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I was not attempting to stretch the joke to try to find a clue, I merely misunderstood the punchline. Thanks for the clarification

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAvocado View Post
    I was not attempting to stretch the joke to try to find a clue, I merely misunderstood the punchline. Thanks for the clarification
    To be perfectly clear: stretching jokes into clues is not, per se, a bad thing. This comic pulls a lot of double duty using jokes to move forward both the plot and characterisation. My point wasn't that this was not a clue because it was Rule of Funny, it was that if this is a clue, is too weak to provide definition: if you want to argue, say, that MitD is a shapeshifter, other scenes provide much better ammunition. On the other hand, this is another example of both MitD ignorance and innocence (which is so well established no-one disputes it anymore).

    It is also my opinion on the matter, indicating I've understood your point (as opposed to my first answer to you, where I simply weren't sure what you were getting at) and I'm establishing my position on the subject. You can still go ahead and disagree by providing a counter narrative that makes sense - I'm just stating I couldn't think of one, not that it cannot exist.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Has the Kickstarter Coloring Book been discussed? Ther is one entry where MitD says he thought he was taller and one where he answers no to the question if he isn't too old for coloring.
    The first may inducate he is unusually small for his species and the second that he is still a child or childish.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargtass View Post
    Has the Kickstarter Coloring Book been discussed? Ther is one entry where MitD says he thought he was taller and one where he answers no to the question if he isn't too old for coloring.
    The first may inducate he is unusually small for his species and the second that he is still a child or childish.
    It has been discussed. The second one is understood to be a reference that you are never too old for colouring. The first could far more easily be understood to be a slight clue to the fact that MitD shouldn't fit under the umbrella.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    But having said that it would be easy for someone who is familiar with this thread to think that's what it meant since all(except maybe one of the slaads?) the best fits we've got would not fit under the umbrella.

    If you strip away that bias then it could be seen simply as the MitD not having a very good self awareness. Which we know is true since he has no idea what he is and spends all his time in darkness.

    My personal view is that it's not a very good clue and I think Rich could easily lampshade the size issue in far more subtle ways that once picked up would be less ambiguous. But it's just a feeling and I could be swayed very easily.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Anyone ever suggested the Umbral Bolt (Blackball) from the epic level handbook?

    1, Its always hungry. -> Check, its made from utter annihilation.
    2, It can teleport people. -> Check, it can fold space-time at will.
    3, It cant remember its dad. -> Check none remember the old gods.
    4, It can cause earthquakes. -> It rather folds space. It looked like a someone used Implosion on the ground, or crushed the space there (like a reverse bag of holding).
    5, Xykon using it as a minion. -> Check, it just plays along, as if it was a sphere of annihilation . It does turn against Xykon too.

    That's just a few things that come to my mind.
    And for those saying it will disintegrate anything it touches: It can choose NOT to use its disintegrating touch. And for hiting lightly 5D6 is still a large amount of dmg at lvl 10ish.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Borgk View Post
    Anyone ever suggested the Umbral Bolt (Blackball) from the epic level handbook?

    1, Its always hungry. -> Check, its made from utter annihilation.
    2, It can teleport people. -> Check, it can fold space-time at will.
    3, It cant remember its dad. -> Check none remember the old gods.
    4, It can cause earthquakes. -> It rather folds space. It looked like a someone used Implosion on the ground, or crushed the space there (like a reverse bag of holding).
    5, Xykon using it as a minion. -> Check, it just plays along, as if it was a sphere of annihilation . It does turn against Xykon too.

    That's just a few things that come to my mind.
    And for those saying it will disintegrate anything it touches: It can choose NOT to use its disintegrating touch. And for hiting lightly 5D6 is still a large amount of dmg at lvl 10ish.
    Construct - does't eat or sleep. Strength 10 - insufficient to explain the tower scene by a long shot.

    It had not been suggested before, although a partial shape shift into it is how the protean explains the escape.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    It IS pure hunger made manifest. One of its main purposes is to destroy matter, so looking at corporeal beings, it might call it "hunger".
    Or simply: "My power reserves are low i need to disintegrate stuff."
    About the gate joke: A sphere of annihilation is conterminous to all planes adjacent to a given plane, as it is a hole in the fabric of the multiverse.
    It cant see the gate because its existing on both planes. It sees everything on both sides so it doesn't notice a "hole" between the two.
    The "Who hits lightest" scene might be explained with it having the ability to use telekinesis. With space-time manipulating abilities its just a step away.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Borgk View Post
    It IS pure hunger made manifest. One of its main purposes is to destroy matter, so looking at corporeal beings, it might call it "hunger".
    [reference needed]

    I sincerely doubt that the desire to annihilate translates into desiring stew and enjoying moldy cheeseburgers. And still doesn't explain how a construct sleeps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borgk View Post
    The "Who hits lightest" scene might be explained with it having the ability to use telekinesis. With space-time manipulating abilities its just a step away.
    Telekinesis doesn't explain a game in which the word "hit" is involved. If MitD was going to push Miko with his mind, he would've phrased it like that.

    But since you seem to want to truly give this idea a go:

    Earthquake requires a "stomp". A sphere of annihilation can't stomp lacking limbs and indeed a mass with which to cause the sound effect. If it was imploding and causing the land to crack, the sound would follow the cracking, not preceed it, and it would not be "stomp".

    The circus scene does not fit. It is a black ball, floating in the middle of the stage. Hardly something to vomit over, feel funny over or be disgusted by. The wizard must have seen black spheres before, even if this one is a truer black that most, and it is not so weird that his words have much meaning.

    Umbral blots have neither faces nor tongues nor sexes nor, presumably, do they emit any noxious odors they need to apologise for.

    In short, it is a construct, and thus does not fit.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Section 4: Appendices

    Section 4d: Recognising MitD
    On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
    I'm just focusing on this part, because I didn't see Phasm in the list of suggested creatures. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Phasm). A Phasm is an amorphous creature with swirls of color for sensory organs (could look like yellow circles, hence eyes), and the amorphous quality could be repulsive but it still possesses an above average charisma, and some may find swirls of color fascinating (like a kaleidoscope). Since it prefers telepathy, it can be surprising that it's speaking instead.

    Of course, it doesn't really explain many of the other scenes, such as the earthquake, the defenses, or the teleporting, unless we assume an alternate form was responsible for all of those scenes.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaproximus View Post
    I'm just focusing on this part, because I didn't see Phasm in the list of suggested creatures. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Phasm). A Phasm is an amorphous creature with swirls of color for sensory organs (could look like yellow circles, hence eyes), and the amorphous quality could be repulsive but it still possesses an above average charisma, and some may find swirls of color fascinating (like a kaleidoscope). Since it prefers telepathy, it can be surprising that it's speaking instead.

    Of course, it doesn't really explain many of the other scenes, such as the earthquake, the defenses, or the teleporting, unless we assume an alternate form was responsible for all of those scenes.
    Here's the official SRD version of that, as the wiki version has some oddnesses (mostly the strikethrough)
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaproximus View Post
    I'm just focusing on this part, because I didn't see Phasm in the list of suggested creatures. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Phasm). A Phasm is an amorphous creature with swirls of color for sensory organs (could look like yellow circles, hence eyes), and the amorphous quality could be repulsive but it still possesses an above average charisma, and some may find swirls of color fascinating (like a kaleidoscope).
    Yes, he seems to be a standard shape changer. It does not apply to the hypothesis of 4d since everyone would see the same creature.

    Also, the phasm, at CR7, is not a credible idea for MitD, which is why no-one suggested it before, I would imagine.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, he seems to be a standard shape changer. It does not apply to the hypothesis of 4d since everyone would see the same creature.

    Also, the phasm, at CR7, is not a credible idea for MitD, which is why no-one suggested it before, I would imagine.

    GW
    I wasn't really posting it as a serious guess, but as things like centaur are on the list, well, it seemed like it wouldn't hurt to put it out there.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by deltaproximus View Post
    I wasn't really posting it as a serious guess, but as things like centaur are on the list, well, it seemed like it wouldn't hurt to put it out there.
    See, on the other hand, I would prefer if people only suggested strong contestants. All that these weak impossible suggestions do is cloud the issue and add chaff to the proposal list. A large number of bad suggestions makes it much harder to find the decent fits that aren't FBS. Or, in nerd terms, they only serve to worsen the signal/noise ratio.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-09-17 at 09:43 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    OK, I've been thinking about this somewhat, and I have a suggestion to make. What if MITD is really the Greek god Hephaestus.
    According to myth, Hephaestus was hurled from Olympus to the sea due his ugly appearance (among other things). But, in OOTSverse, Olympus isn't on the world, but is instead on another plane of existence, with the Astral Plane acting as an ocean between them. While floating through the Astral Plane he would be safely removed from both the other Greek gods, and world 1.0 allowing him to survive the snarl's attack (He is not listed, or ever depicted in the crayons of time). At the same time, this would make him part of a forgotten pantheon, explaining why no one can recognize him.
    As a god, he would have the raw power needed to shake the Earth, and punch Miko through a wall. He could also teleport O'chul and V away from the tower (Gods in OOTS aren't limited by the exact rules as demonstrated by weather control).
    Additionally, we must consider that he is a god without worshipers. I haven't played D&D so I'm hazy on the rules, but I believe gods derive part of their power from worship. Since he has no worshipers, he hasn't fully grown up to his huge god size. Further, the lack of worshipers means he has absolutely no responsibilities, leading to his current carefree attitude (Thor is almost as bad, and Thor does have responsibilities).
    Lastly, as I mentioned, he was thrown off of Olympus for being too ugly. This would explain why he is hideous, but he still probably has some kind of God aura and/or high charisma to explain the circus scene.
    Additionally, this theory has one more thing going for it, everyone would get it. I doubt that Rich would make MITD an obscure D&D creature, because only a small section of his readership would appreciate it. Most wouldn't understand, and would feel cheated. It also satisfies Rich's statement about a hazy line between something he made up, and an original creation. He didn't make up Hephaestus, but he did make up his personality.
    The two week points I see in this idea are 1. How did he get to world 2.0, and 2. It doesn't really explain the Big Game Hunters scene (although ugly could mean looks like a hideous creature from Greek mythology, such as a minotaur).
    So, any thoughts?

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redgoblin View Post
    OK, I've been thinking about this somewhat, and I have a suggestion to make. What if MITD is really the Greek god Hephaestus.
    <snip>
    So, any thoughts?
    Section 2c: Categories. Cannot be a deity (deities are immune to mind control, MitD isn't)

    See also, given your arguments, section 4f.

    Oh, and friendly warning: you are walking perilously close to breaking board rules. Discussing the Zeus from the crayon drawings is fine, but any mention of actual mythological Zeus or any other real-world religion deities such as Hephaestus (and its associated myths) is against board rules. Edit: See here for a clear explanation of the issue (especially, of course, Rich's post at the end)

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2012-09-18 at 04:41 PM.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant & Yendor View Post
    "GIANT IN THE PLAYGROUND: On a saner forum, there wouldn't have been such speculation."
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Section 2c: Categories. Cannot be a deity (deities are immune to mind control, MitD isn't)
    But, if he has no worshipers (forgive me I don't know the exact rules), is he really a deity? And even if he is, would he have all the normal powers of one?

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