MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[Irish Musician]

But, if he has no worshipers (forgive me I don't know the exact rules), is he really a deity? And even if he is, would he have all the normal powers of one?

If he didn't have worshipers, then he wouldn't have been a deity int he first place and therefore your first suggestion is invalid of him being a deity flung down to earth from the heavens

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But, if he has no worshipers (forgive me I don't know the exact rules), is he really a deity? And even if he is, would he have all the normal powers of one?

If he is not a deity, then he cannot have an aura of charisma or strength to punch a horse through a wall. He'd just be an ugly old guy (too old, in fact. Presumably, he'd be long dead from old age, the new world has existed for a couple thousand years). If he is still a deity, he is immune to mind control. You can't have it both ways, hand-waving away the godly characteristics that are a problem, and keeping the ones that support your argument.

As to the D&D rules regarding deities and their need for followers, they are all over the place. I am no expert, but if I understand it correctly, they used to not need anyone, and in the switch from 2nd edition to 3rd edition (the time of troubles described in a number of novels dealing with Kelenvor & co.), the god-of-gods, tired of the regular gods ignoring their followers, changed the rules so that they did indeed need prayer badly. See Kish's post following this one for a more accurate depiction.

That said, it is not really relevant what the D&D rules are. In the OotS universe, belief can turn you into a god (that's how the Dark One came to be, as well as the Elf gods, IIRC), but since the gods that survived the Snarl were in hiding for a while before they figured out how to trap the Snarl, and during that time they both had no followers and still retained their powers, presumably they don't really need followers.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

As to the D&D rules regarding deities and their need for followers, they are all over the place. I am no expert, but if I understand it correctly, they used to not need anyone, and in the switch from 2nd edition to 3rd edition (the time of troubles described in a number of novels dealing with Kelenvor & co.), the god-of-gods, tired of the regular gods ignoring their followers, changed the rules so that they did indeed need prayer badly.

Mostly correct, but:
1) Forgotten Realms specific. Not relevant to any other setting.
2) It was actually the switch from 1ed to 2ed.

However, in OotS (and in most D&D settings) gods definitely derive their powers from their followers; the whole Banjo-can-smite-Roy-but-powered-by-the-belief-of-only-Elan-Roy-will-barely-feel-it subplot covered that.

[lio45]

See, on the other hand, I would prefer if people only suggested strong contestants. All that these weak impossible suggestions do is cloud the issue and add chaff to the proposal list. A large number of bad suggestions makes it much harder to find the decent fits that aren't FBS. Or, in nerd terms, they only serve to worsen the signal/noise ratio.

Grey Wolf

Completely agree. "It wouldn't hurt to have more noise in here" is totally contrary to the very spirit of the nice, clean compilation that this thread is.

[deltaproximus]

Mostly correct, but:
1) Forgotten Realms specific. Not relevant to any other setting.
2) It was actually the switch from 1ed to 2ed.

However, in OotS (and in most D&D settings) gods definitely derive their powers from their followers; the whole Banjo-can-smite-Roy-but-powered-by-the-belief-of-only-Elan-Roy-will-barely-feel-it subplot covered that.

The Banjo smiting Roy thing is probably just rule of funny. In 737 Durkon is explaining to Malack that Hel, the goddess of death in Durkon's pantheon, has no worshipers or priests, yet she's apparently still powerful enough to argue with the other gods over the souls of the dwarven dead.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Banjo smiting Roy thing is probably just rule of funny. In 737 Durkon is explaining to Malack that Hel, the goddess of death in Durkon's pantheon, has no worshipers or priests, yet she's apparently still powerful enough to argue with the other gods over the souls of the dwarven dead.

You are comparing two different types of gods. As I explained, in OotS there is the original gods (Northern, Southern & Eastern pantheons) that survived Snarl, who don't need followers to retain power, and there are the new gods (Elf gods, The Dark One, Banjo), who become gods because of the beliefs of their followers, and whose degree of power depends on those beliefs.

While this brings to mind the interesting possibility that a new god could eventually become more powerful than an old god, we have no evidence that this has actually happened - the Dark One would not be involved in a risky scheme like the Snarl one if he could envision a way to just become more powerful than the gods he is trying to beat by other easier means like having a couple thousand more followers. More likely, there is no way to actually measure godly power other than all-out confrontation and, of course, the Dark One is both numerically inferior (one of him, pantheons of them) and his followers have difficulty growing in number due to the circumstances in which they live.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

I fear we're starting to get a bit off topic so I'm hesitant to mention this, but I think this is important.

We *assume* the old gods had no followers because we're told the world was entirely undone by the Snarl, and thus they don't actually need followers to maintain their power.

But that's just what we've been told. There's clearly another world on the other side of at least that one rift. Maybe the world wasn't destroyed and all its people slain at all.

Perhaps there are millions of old god worshipping mortals down there.

[Steven]

I fail to see how that makes even the slightest difference to a thread that is an attempt to use clues in the comic to find a MitD that fits with a DnD monster that has a stat block in an official book.

There is no way for us to know if the people on the world in the rift provided power to the gods, if the world in the rift is actually real or if the MitD is a god.
If he is then everything could be explained or hand waved, because you know, GOD, but by a strict reading of the rules ANY god is immune to mental domination.

Also, the gods in OotS created the world without the need of followers. There has been no mention of a Forgotten Realms like change that requires them to have worship so as far as I can see we have to assume they don't need followers to be gods.

[rweird]

I fail to see how that makes even the slightest difference to a thread that is an attempt to use clues in the comic to find a MitD that fits with a DnD monster that has a stat block in an official book.

There is no way for us to know if the people on the world in the rift provided power to the gods, if the world in the rift is actually real or if the MitD is a god.
If he is then everything could be explained or hand waved, because you know, GOD, but by a strict reading of the rules ANY god is immune to mental domination.

Also, the gods in OotS created the world without the need of followers. There has been no mention of a Forgotten Realms like change that requires them to have worship so as far as I can see we have to assume they don't need followers to be gods.

This has been go on about before. If it doesn't follow the rules then it will be handwaved, though if we handwave everything there's no point to this thread, Rich said he is following the rules, and we will stick with that presumption until it is proven incorrect.

[Steven]

That's what I meant. Discussing the mechanics of things like people on the planet in the rift and their religious views is pointless in the context of this thread.

[rweird]

Sorry, I guess i misread you posts meaning.

[Crusher]

I fail to see how that makes even the slightest difference to a thread that is an attempt to use clues in the comic to find a MitD that fits with a DnD monster that has a stat block in an official book.

There is no way for us to know if the people on the world in the rift provided power to the gods, if the world in the rift is actually real or if the MitD is a god.
If he is then everything could be explained or hand waved, because you know, GOD, but by a strict reading of the rules ANY god is immune to mental domination.

Also, the gods in OotS created the world without the need of followers. There has been no mention of a Forgotten Realms like change that requires them to have worship so as far as I can see we have to assume they don't need followers to be gods.

Which is exactly why I opened with the sentence - "I fear we're starting to get a bit off topic so I'm hesitant to mention this, but I think this is important."

That having been said, while I agree that we're getting a little off-topic, this is nothing compared with the whole medieval woodworking discussion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That having been said, while I agree that we're getting a little off-topic, this is nothing compared with the whole medieval woodworking discussion.

I disagree. The medieval woodworking was directly related to the question of the weight of the box, one of the big issues of the MitD scenes. Like the punch in the tower scene, it is one of the few occasions where, as far as we have been able to determine, MitD is definetely not following D&D rules. That puts this thread in a difficult position. While I continue to think that that is the case, the woodworking discussion did suggest it might not be quite as bad as I thought.

This discussion on the working of OotS gods, on the other hand, is not going to solve any issues. Whether the old gods need prayer or not, the dichotomy will remain: you can't have MitD be a god and have godly abilities and be mind-controllable at the same time.

But it is not a big deal. We have had asides like these before. I much prefer them to the flame wars were I get called names and accused of being a fascist overlord and I loose my patience and eventually get carded. So by all means, carry on.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

But it is not a big deal. We have had asides like these before. I much prefer them to the flame wars were I get called names and accused of being a fascist overlord and I loose my patience and eventually get carded. So by all means, carry on.

Grey Wolf

DON'T CENSOR US, FASCIST OVERLORD!!!! REVOLT!!!!! REVOLT!!!!!!

[LordRahl6]

I'm hoping some people have already discussed this already, but has anyone considered the possibility of MitD being the "D word" (from the title of the game the strip lampoons), or the "G word" (from which the site gets its name)?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm hoping some people have already discussed this already, but has anyone considered the possibility of MitD being the "D word" (from the title of the game the strip lampoons), or the "G word" (from which the site gets its name)?

I don't know what either of those are, but I do know that Giant in the Playground is not lampooning anything unless it is indirectly. Giant in the Playground was Rich's handle in some old D&D forum he used to be part of.

GW

[Irish Musician]

I don't know what either of those are, but I do know that Giant in the Playground is not lampooning anything unless it is indirectly. Giant in the Playground was Rich's handle in some old D&D forum he used to be part of.

GW

I think he means a Dragon and a Giant for what MitD is.....

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think he means a Dragon and a Giant for what MitD is.....

If that is what LordRahl6 means, a quick check at post one should tell him that dragons have been proposed and giants have not.

GW

[Irish Musician]

If that is what LordRahl6 means, a quick check at post one should tell him that dragons have been proposed and giants have not.

GW

Right. We have discussed at length, Dragons. But given the size of giants, I'm not sure they would work as well. Just going on hunches here, but I am sure an earth type giant would likely have a Str MitD needs, but don't know of any sort of stomp power they might possess, and I am about 85% sure that there is no giant that can Teleport, or something of the sort.

EDIT: OF course, who knows. D&D has all sorts of crazy monsters

[Leriel]

I took a look to the list of proposed creatures, and I did not find the astral dragon (from Krynn monster compendium, 2nd edition):
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dragastr.php

Just an hypotesis:
The MitD is an unmated astral dragon:
- It's immortal (no way to harm him with weapons)
- It's ugly and beautiful (as most dragons, from a "commoner" point of view)
- His father is REALLY big (length of 50 feet)
- He needs just liquids to not starve, but he can eat whatever he wants (maybe he likes stew so much since it's semi-liquid)
- He's a children (he will remain a children until he will find a proper mate)

... but somewhat he has a spark of the powers of the mated ones (35th-level clerics).

This *could* explain the earthquake and escape scene - these powers are latent, he did not know about them, and he used them without knowing what he was doing.

Just my 2 cents

[Irish Musician]

I took a look to the list of proposed creatures, and I did not find the astral dragon (from Krynn monster compendium, 2nd edition):
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dragastr.php

Just an hypotesis:
The MitD is an unmated astral dragon:
- It's immortal (no way to harm him with weapons)
- It's ugly and beautiful (as most dragons, from a "commoner" point of view)
- His father is REALLY big (length of 50 feet)
- He needs just liquids to not starve, but he can eat whatever he wants (maybe he likes stew so much since it's semi-liquid)
- He's a children (he will remain a children until he will find a proper mate)

... but somewhat he has a spark of the powers of the mated ones (35th-level clerics).

This *could* explain the earthquake and escape scene - these powers are latent, he did not know about them, and he used them without knowing what he was doing.

Just my 2 cents

From what I read, the young Astrals don't have powers.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I took a look to the list of proposed creatures, and I did not find the astral dragon (from Krynn monster compendium, 2nd edition):
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dragastr.php

Why wasn't he in the cave with all other 2nd eds? Do we know if it got updated?

I'm also not impressed with his stats. We don't have a strength, but 2d12 is not exactly wall-shattering. But I do like the fluff about remaining a child until mated.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

I'm not sure how much weight we give the "I've never seen anything like it before" comment anymore, but a baby dragon seems unlikely to fit that.

(the "remains a child until mated" thing is pretty good, though.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not sure how much weight we give the "I've never seen anything like it before" comment anymore, but a baby dragon seems unlikely to fit that.

I consider it key, actually. I was meaning to add it to my post, but it seems to have slipped my mind. Thanks for bringing it up. From the fluff, it seems these astral dragons are the prototypical dragon (indeed, they are the proto-dragons), so it is hard to see how one would be put on display as an unrecognisable 'IT'.

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

In addition, "ugly and beautiful" isn't enough to fit the circus scene -- it needs to be ugly, beautiful, and not like anything someone (a wizard?) has ever seen. I have a hard time believing, in a D&D world, that a dragon is unlike anything a wizard, or even a commoner, has ever seen before.

Edit: damnit, ninja'd again on this thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have a hard time believing, in a D&D world, that a dragon is unlike anything a wizard, or even a commoner, has ever seen before.

We know that Roy played with a stuffed dragon doll when he was 5-ish. That makes dragons as well known in OotS as bears are in ours.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

In addition, "ugly and beautiful" isn't enough to fit the circus scene -- it needs to be ugly, beautiful, and not like anything someone (a wizard?) has ever seen. I have a hard time believing, in a D&D world, that a dragon is unlike anything a wizard, or even a commoner, has ever seen before.

Edit: damnit, ninja'd again on this thread.

Well, the particular type of Dragon, on the stat sheet, is apparently Super Rare.......

I consider it key, actually. I was meaning to add it to my post, but it seems to have slipped my mind. Thanks for bringing it up. From the fluff, it seems these astral dragons are the prototypical dragon (indeed, they are the proto-dragons), so it is hard to see how one would be put on display as an unrecognisable 'IT'.

Grey Wolf

I see your point here though. I didn't see this post before....

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, the particular type of Dragon, on the stat sheet, is apparently Super Rare.......

So are AB- bloodtype humans, but no-one would fail to recognise them as humans. Dragons come in a large variety of colours and shininess, but they are all generally distinguishable on sight as dragons.

Edit: I should add, there are some weird dragons that could squeak through the 'unrecognisable' feature (the Linnorm is technically a dragon, for example), thus why I pointed out that these astral ones are too 'basic dragon' to count for that explanation.

GW

[Irish Musician]

So are AB- bloodtype humans, but no-one would fail to recognise them as humans. Dragons come in a large variety of colours and shininess, but they are all generally distinguishable on sight as dragons.

Edit: I should add, there are some weird dragons that could squeak through the 'unrecognisable' feature (the Linnorm is technically a dragon, for example), thus why I pointed out that these astral ones are too 'basic dragon' to count for that explanation.

GW

Yeah, agreed. Esp after going back and looking at the pic of one form the sheet. Definitely recognizable as a dragon.....maybe not an Astral dragon, but a dragon none-the-less.

[Thaxan]

I had a thought.
There's a set of Giants in the Fiend Folio, Fensirs and Rakkas.
When a Fensir reaches a certain stage in its lifecycle it starts eating huge quantities of food, becoming a Rakka.

There are a lot of holes in the theory that the MITD is a Fensir(Speaking common, high int, only females become rakkas), but it made me think this: Are there any similar creatures that haven't been looked at that go through such a metamorphosis? It would certainly explain the comments about his father.