[VS] God Mode Villain Sues! Naruto vs Bleach! [Spoilers?]

[INoKnowNames]

I got to thinking about it... And I wonder who is an even worse villain between the two of them.

For most of the series, it didn't appear that a Ninja would exist who could take on a Soul Reaper (and anyone who calls them Shinigami deserves to be shot; they are not Gods of Death by any stretch of the imagination). Most of them are incredibly overpowered in ability, and the Ninja are far more grounded in comparison.

However, we've finally found someone who might actually compare, even to the other big bad! I honestly can't even begin to describe the abilities of these two fighters...

Sosuke Aizen, former (and possibly still) Big Bad of Bleach, former captain of one of the 13 court guard squads, master of kido, equiped with the Hogkyoku.

vs

Madara Uchiha, current Big Bad, if not Bigger Bad, of Naruto, heralded as one of the most powerful shinobi in existance, possibly immortal as of his ressurection.

Which God Mode Sue is the bigger God Mode Sue? What do you think?

[Tavar]

So, someone who's ultimate power rests with his amazing eyes, versus someone who's special ability is defeated by the blind.

Yeah, I think Marada might have a bit of trouble with Azien.

[INoKnowNames]

So, someone who's ultimate power rests with his amazing eyes, versus someone who's special ability is defeated by the blind.

Aizen's got so many other tricks beyond his hypnosis ability, though. His WTFButterfly Form's gamebreaking enough without him even using his Bankai...

Yeah, I think Marada might have a bit of trouble with Azien.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic with this or not, concerning how you stated that statement.

[Grimsage Matt]

Personaly, I'd say it might be rocket tag. Marada was huge ass offensive and defensive powers, and it's possible that he don't need to physicly see you to kill you. Plus, unlimited Chakra, and a lot of practice with most forms of jutsu. It's who can unleash the world breaking attack first.

[Tavar]

My point was that Marada is one of the worst opponents to place against Azien, because he's almost certainly going to be trapped by the hypnosis, and once that happens it's game over.

[INoKnowNames]

My point was that Marada is one of the worst opponents to place against Azien, because he's almost certainly going to be trapped by the hypnosis, and once that happens it's game over.

Ah, I see what you're saying. However, aren't the Uchiha more than capable of using their Dojutsu do defend against such assaults on the senses? Sasuke and Itachi stoped using Genjutsu when both realised the other were immune to it, and it would be an easy assumption to make that Madara would be better than them when it came to both the use and defence against hypnotism.

Genjutsu and Hypnotism seem like they're fairly compatable in translating from one series to another. It's actually why Madara's one of the few people who probably could take on Aizen, since few other people alone would be able to defend so well and not be weak in other areas.

[Kitten Champion]

Ah, I see what you're saying. However, aren't the Uchiha more than capable of using their Dojutsu do defend against such assaults on the senses? Sasuke and Itachi stoped using Genjutsu when both realised the other were immune to it, and it would be an easy assumption to make that Madara would be better than them when it came to both the use and defence against hypnotism.

Genjutsu and Hypnotism seem like they're fairly compatable in translating from one series to another. It's actually why Madara's one of the few people who probably could take on Aizen, since few other people alone would be able to defend so well and not be weak in other areas.

Aizen has a 100& success rate with some of the most powerful and oldest spirits in existence, who were all aware of his ability and actively trying to subvert it, it's not likely Madara could. Possible, certainly, there's always a first time for anything.

The better question is, perhaps, would hypnosis work on Aizen -- assuming Madara isn't simply blasted into vapour upon contact which is a distinct possibility. The fact that he was done in by Hirako Shinji's reversed world does suggest he could be. Probably, it depends on how much of that was real, and how much of it was Aizen trolling them.

Then again, Eldrich Abomination Aizen didn't have eyes, exactly.

[Silva Stormrage]

Aizen has a 100& success rate with some of the most powerful and oldest spirits in existence, who were all aware of his ability and actively trying to subvert it, it's not likely Madara could. Possible, certainly, there's always a first time for anything.

The better question is, perhaps, would hypnosis work on Aizen -- assuming Madara isn't simply blasted into vapour upon contact which is a distinct possibility. The fact that he was done in by Hirako Shinji's reversed world does suggest he could be. Probably, it depends on how much of that was real, and how much of it was Aizen trolling them.

Then again, Eldrich Abomination Aizen didn't have eyes, exactly.

Ya but I think he kinda does. Don't his tentacles have eye things on them? And he has to see somehow.

Now of course this goes to Aizen hands down. The ninja world doesn't have anything nearly fast enough to counter shunpo IMO. The sharigan has amazing perception ability but I don't think its fast enough to follow Aizen's shunpo. That plus kido plus Madara's arrogance = Aizen win. Because Aizen just needs to release his shikai on Madara and he wins.

Another thing to note, is that they are both arrogant villians who give long mocking speeches. I assume that they meet up, both tell the other to step aside as they are the gods of this world. Begin fighting, Aizen has advantage in reflexs and doesn't even need to call out his sword's name to release it... Once Madara is in his illusion he can never determine where Aizen is again and Aizen simply binds him using kido as he can't counter it.

[Kitten Champion]

I suppose those are eyes. though so are those things peeled back on the side of his head... and that thing in the middle.

They seem more like sockets to me though.

Oh, and I think he was past using mere shunpo by the end, he was just sort of materializing wherever he wanted. I suspect at actually a much faster pace than depicted.

I think you'd might have a decent fight with pre-Hogkyoku Aizen versus Madara, although that would depend on what his bankai was.

[INoKnowNames]

Aizen has a 100& success rate with some of the most powerful and oldest spirits in existence, who were all aware of his ability and actively trying to subvert it, it's not likely Madara could. Possible, certainly, there's always a first time for anything.

For Aizen's powerful hypnosis ability, what exactly did Captain Yamamoto and Ichigo have that made him deal with them differently in comparison to the others.

As for actively subverting it, "ignoring that he has the ability and rush him" doesn't seem like it subverts anything. Poor Hinamori's a good reminder of that.

Madara, mean while, as an Uchiha, has a genetic defense against that sort of thing (I forget if the Rinnegan is also capable of defending against illusions or not. It might not, since a Genjutsu was one of the few tricks Jiraya had that could let him fight against Pain).

The better question is, perhaps, would hypnosis work on Aizen --

Hm... Tsukuyomi vs Kyoha Tsuigetsu... I'd just as soon the use of the two would cancel the other out.

assuming Madara isn't simply blasted into vapour upon contact which is a distinct possibility.

Considering Aizen was oblitterating completely defenseless people with his presence, the way that, say, Cell's Aura prevented the weak human martial artists from even being able to touch him, I wouldn't doubt Aizen couldn't walk through regular shinobi and turn them into tang.

Madara when he wasn't a zombie, however, ranked at Aizen's level. Now that he is, that is most definitely not a distinct possibility. At least as far as I know, and I admit that I don't know, hence this thread.

Probably, it depends on how much of that was real, and how much of it was Aizen trolling them.

For all we know, this thread is a lie created by Aizen...

Then again, Eldrich Abomination Aizen didn't have eyes, exactly.

He had like 4 sets of them! Not forgetting the ones that he used to have before he grew in his new face!

Ya but I think he kinda does. Don't his tentacles have eye things on them? And he has to see somehow.

At what point were you under the suspicion that Aizen needed to see somehow?

Now of course this goes to Aizen hands down. The ninja world doesn't have anything nearly fast enough to counter shunpo IMO.

What.

The sharigan has amazing perception ability but I don't think its fast enough to follow Aizen's shunpo.

Basic level Sharingan allowed for tracking someone capable of moving at bullet time speed. Madara's got the (as of now) highest level version. Tracking movements is one thing that was never questioned; it was the body being able to keep up and actually respond to what the eyes saw. Considering Madara's able to keep up with someone who moves at the speed of Lightning, this probably isn't too questionable on his part either.

That plus kido plus Madara's arrogance = Aizen win. Because Aizen just needs to release his shikai on Madara and he wins.

Assuming Ki = Chakra = Reikoru, Madara could potentially be able to absorb energy based attacks, and the bit about his Shikai has already been talked about.

Begin fighting, Aizen has advantage in reflexs and doesn't even need to call out his sword's name to release it...

Where was this confirmed?

Spoiler

Show

I suppose those are eyes. though so are those things peeled back on the side of his head... and that thing in the middle.

They seem more like sockets to me though.

And I suppose images like that need to be spoilered this late at night!

Oh, and I think he was past using mere shunpo by the end, he was just sort of materializing wherever he wanted. I suspect at actually a much faster pace than depicted.

By his 4th fusion with the Hogkyoku it was merely breaking himself down and reappearing.

I think you'd might have a decent fight with pre-Hogkyoku Aizen versus Madara, although that would depend on what his bankai was.

Random note: Post Hogkyoku Aizen actually lost his ability to use his sword period, it having decided he didn't need it, in his own words. Think the full power of the Hogkyoku equiped Aizen is worse than having to deal with fighting off his Hypnosis?

[Infernally Clay]

Both are functionally immortal, but I'm actually going to ignore the Hogyoku and the Edo Tensei.

...and Madara still doesn't stand much of a chance. Aizen is physically superior in every respect (to the point where I'd be surprised if he couldn't cut the simpler forms of Susano'o in half) and his Shikai is something Madara cannot overcome. It affects all five senses to such a fine degree that he can make you think you hit something even if you didn't (as he showed against Harribel). Plus he has all that Kido and I'd like to see Madara's Mokuton or Katon jutsu getting through a Kido like Danku.

[Tengu_temp]

Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.

[Agrippa]

Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.

Even if Vlad Taltos walked up behind the winner and drove Lady Telda into his back?

[Tengu_temp]

I don't know that guy, but if he can make it stick then I approve.

[Agrippa]

I don't know that guy, but if he can make it stick then I approve.

Considering the fact that he killed a god before, with some prep time and highly powerful allies at his side against five of these Jenoine or gods, yeah I think he can make it stick. Besides, after this stupid duel he'll only have to worry about killing one of them, who'll probably be a little fatigued after tearing the other Big Bad to shreds. Of course he'll do the killing with Godslayer/Lady Teldra.

Edit: I was mistaken, Vlad didn't kill a gods because Jenoine and gods are different things. Jenoine are primordial beings of great sorcerous power who created the Dragoreans. Gods are acsended mortals.

[darksolitaire]

Current edo Madara and final Aizen are both immortal, so...
Well, both could be defeated by sealing tech, so it would come down to transparency. Aizen probably knows how to seal Madara trough being awesome at kido, and Madara probably knows how to seal Aizen because of being a god damn Uchiha.

Aizen is physically superior in every respect (to the point where I'd be surprised if he couldn't cut the simpler forms of Susano'o in half) and his Shikai is something Madara cannot overcome. It affects all five senses to such a fine degree that he can make you think you hit something even if you didn't (as he showed against Harribel).

To Aizen being physically stronger, Madara has access to some crazy rinnegan tech. Gravitational manipulation should not be discarded. As to the second, Narutoverse illusions such as Tsukuyomi effect on the chakra on the victim's brain, not senses, being on par or better then Aizen's. It's lot more even fight then you let on.

[Traab]

I think hypnosis can be dismissed, at least against madera. Thats one of the main, basic, original things the sharingan was made for. Way back when it was awesome and not eye rollingly overpowered, the sharingan could see through pretty much all illusions. Someone mentioned that aizens hypnosis could effect all senses. Ok, I will accept that, but how effective is it when madera knows he can only trust what he sees, and not what he hears smells tastes or touches? He can SEE that aizen moved. He wouldnt be fooled by feeling the impact of his fist apparently hitting an aizen that isnt there. He would be able to ignore the sound of his opponent charging from his left, because he can see him sneaking up on the right.

Ok, lets get rid of that auto win skill then. What do we have now? Obscene speed and raw power? Honestly? I can see aizen with the edge. I mean, I watched his death match against ichigo, and he is tanking hits that obliterate larger areas than when naruto went 4 tails on orochimaru. He isnt blocking them, or dodging them, he is getting hit in the face with them and just being annoyed. (slight exageration, I know he was sorta freaking out that ichigo could even do that much) I will admit, that I havent seen the new madera fight. Just ehard some random bits in the discussion thread. But I dont know if madera has been taking direct shots from attacks of that magnitude yet or not. I also dont know what the outer limits of susanoo are for him. Sasuke took some nasty shots that did damage to his during the 5 kage summit, but his wasnt even remotely close to complete yet. So have we seen any attacks breach maderas susanoo yet?

[Kitten Champion]

For Aizen's powerful hypnosis ability, what exactly did Captain Yamamoto and Ichigo have that made him deal with them differently in comparison to the others.

As for actively subverting it, "ignoring that he has the ability and rush him" doesn't seem like it subverts anything. Poor Hinamori's a good reminder of that.

Ya'know, I don't think Yamamoto was ever in a situation where could be put under hypnosis. Aizen used Kyoha Tsuigetsu on all of the subordinate shinigami in a false demonstration of his abilities, others were apparently exposed to it over the centuries while fighting hollows and the like. But Yamamoto would never have tolerated a shikai release in his presence -- I believe they're supposed to be entirely unarmed during meetings and the like -- and he never really leaves the 1st division's area to go anywhere he could be potentially targeted.

Why he didn't use it in the war, whether he wouldn't be able to under those conditions or he simply didn't bother with it, is up to your interpretation.

As for subverting it, I'm thinking more along the lines of Gin and Urahara than the futile efforts of the charging shinigami he cut down. Urahara waited until Aizen's arrogance and power overcame his sense of vulnerability and spiked him with the binding, which otherwise he'd wisely dodged. Gin spent centuries looking for the weakness to Aizen's ability in order to defeat him, and would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddlesome Hogkyoku.

[gooddragon1]

There has been evidence of naruto characters with sharingan altering reality (this is in fact how the 10 tailed beast got separated into each of the other tailed beasts). However, we actually see a shinigami appear once in the series and he's treated as a very powerful entity who removes the soul of his target. If that's the rank of a normal shinigami... I can't even imagine what Aizen would be doing.

[Traab]

There has been evidence of naruto characters with sharingan altering reality (this is in fact how the 10 tailed beast got separated into each of the other tailed beasts). However, we actually see a shinigami appear once in the series and he's treated as a very powerful entity who removes the soul of his target. If that's the rank of a normal shinigami... I can't even imagine what Aizen would be doing.

Yeah, but in those cases this shinigami has to work through a medium, he doesnt just show up, tear the souls out of everyone, then go home, he had to be summoned, work through the body and soul of his summoner, and he could be fought off if his summoner was weakened. Besides all that, im pretty sure the shinigami of naruto is not the same as a soul reaper in bleach. Or do the reapers regularly tear the souls out of living people and devour them? That strikes me as more of a hollow thing, and even they tend to target ghosts.

[lord_khaine]

Ya'know, I don't think Yamamoto was ever in a situation where could be put under hypnosis. Aizen used Kyoha Tsuigetsu on all of the subordinate shinigami in a false demonstration of his abilities, others were apparently exposed to it over the centuries while fighting hollows and the like. But Yamamoto would never have tolerated a shikai release in his presence -- I believe they're supposed to be entirely unarmed during meetings and the like -- and he never really leaves the 1st division's area to go anywhere he could be potentially targeted.

No, it was stated somewhere that he demonstrated its ability before the captains, thats how Yamamoto got affected.

And this is the guy who tank bankai shots to his face for nostalgia, he wouldnt have a problem with someone demonstrating their bankai/shikai in front of them, and would most likely demand it done as a part of the captain test.

[Kitten Champion]

No, it was stated somewhere that he demonstrated its ability before the captains, thats how Yamamoto got affected.

And this is the guy who tank bankai shots to his face for nostalgia, he wouldnt have a problem with someone demonstrating their bankai/shikai in front of them, and would most likely demand it done as a part of the captain test.

Oh, I assumed there was a valid reason Aizen needed to go through the convoluted process of sealing his zanpakutou using a specially designed hollow only to nearly die when it failed.

Apparently not.

I didn't think he's afraid of anyone in particular waving a sword around him, he's just something of a stickler for rules. I seem to recall going unarmed during any official business with him was one of them.

[INoKnowNames]

Both are functionally immortal, but I'm actually going to ignore the Hogyoku and the Edo Tensei.

I hate how vaguely defined their powers are.... Madara's sketchy past, and Aizen being completely untrustworthy...

...and Madara still doesn't stand much of a chance.

?

Aizen is physically superior in every respect (to the point where I'd be surprised if he couldn't cut the simpler forms of Susano'o in half)

Got any examples to site on this?

and his Shikai is something Madara cannot overcome. It affects all five senses to such a fine degree that he can make you think you hit something even if you didn't (as he showed against Harribel).

The exact kind of thing that not only Ninja actually do get trained against, but that Madara's signature special ability, on it's most basic level, let alone the premium platinum version he's long since upgraded to, is famous for defending against?

Plus he has all that Kido and I'd like to see Madara's Mokuton or Katon jutsu getting through a Kido like Danku.

Other than attacks big enough to go around such a thing, or attacking on multiple angles with multiple wood clones.... though I only see the example from the wiki, so my knowledge on it is limited.

Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.

Assuming we'd even get to see it and it isn't just us getting trolled.

Even if Vlad Taltos walked up behind the winner and drove Lady Telda into his back?

I don't know that guy, but if he can make it stick then I approve.

This.

Current edo Madara and final Aizen are both immortal, so...
Well, both could be defeated by sealing tech, so it would come down to transparency. Aizen probably knows how to seal Madara trough being awesome at kido, and Madara probably knows how to seal Aizen because of being a god damn Uchiha.

It doesn't seem unlikely for an Uchiha, particularly one with the Rinnegan and being part of the plan to capture and seal the Tailed Beasts, to be without his own Sealing Techniques.

To Aizen being physically stronger, Madara has access to some crazy rinnegan tech. Gravitational manipulation should not be discarded.

As should not the ability to, on a split second, absorb and be empowered by an energy based attacks.

I will admit, that I havent seen the new madera fight. Just ehard some random bits in the discussion thread.

You should go read and see what Madara's been up to since his revival. To put it in his words, the world is lucky the good guys are so incredibly weak, so that when they have to redraw the areas he's destroyed as a by product of his fighting, it won't be such a huge task.

Ya'know, I don't think Yamamoto was ever in a situation where could be put under hypnosis. Aizen used Kyoha Tsuigetsu on all of the subordinate shinigami in a false demonstration of his abilities, others were apparently exposed to it over the centuries while fighting hollows and the like. But Yamamoto would never have tolerated a shikai release in his presence -- I believe they're supposed to be entirely unarmed during meetings and the like -- and he never really leaves the 1st division's area to go anywhere he could be potentially targeted.
Why he didn't use it in the war, whether he wouldn't be able to under those conditions or he simply didn't bother with it, is up to your interpretation.

I'm still not sure why Ichigo was so special as to be completely unvunerable to it for whatever reason, at least until Aizen no longer needs it.

As for subverting it, I'm thinking more along the lines of Gin and Urahara than the futile efforts of the charging shinigami he cut down. Urahara waited until Aizen's arrogance and power overcame his sense of vulnerability and spiked him with the binding, which otherwise he'd wisely dodged. Gin spent centuries looking for the weakness to Aizen's ability in order to defeat him, and would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddlesome Hogkyoku.

...... fudge, brain fart. How does this part tie in with Aizen vs Madara?

There has been evidence of naruto characters with sharingan altering reality (this is in fact how the 10 tailed beast got separated into each of the other tailed beasts).

Indeed. It's speculated that Madara knows some of these techs, too, though he hasn't used any yet.

However, we actually see a shini-

*headshot*
Hidan is a Ninja who joined a Cult and gained Immortality from it. Nothing more.

No, it was stated somewhere that he demonstrated its ability before the captains, thats how Yamamoto got affected.
And this is the guy who tank bankai shots to his face for nostalgia, he wouldnt have a problem with someone demonstrating their bankai/shikai in front of them, and would most likely demand it done as a part of the captain test.

3 Captains, including Yamamoto, have to see the Bankai to be a Captain. Or you can just kill a captain, but only Kenpachi's done this. The only other way is to be recommended by 6 captains and recieve the approval from at least 3 others. But I don't know if Aizen did that or not.

Oh, I assumed there was a valid reason Aizen needed to go through the convoluted process of sealing his zanpakutou using a specially designed hollow only to nearly die when it failed.
Apparently not.

I think that the idea that particularly strong people, like Yamamoto, are apparently capable of telling the difference between illusions and reality, does have a bit of credence here.

Either that, or Kubo's just a terrible writer. But that's just personal bias.

I didn't think he's afraid of anyone in particular waving a sword around him, he's just something of a stickler for rules. I seem to recall going unarmed during any official business with him was one of them.

I don't think he'd care if the person came armed or not. After all, in his presence, there is no better security in the entire soul society.

[Xondoure]

Hidan wasn't the death god in question. The Death God Summoning Technique the Fourth used against the Kyubii is the one in question.

[Fan]

Alright, time to repost my bleach calc for Dangai Ichigo's sword swing by shamelessly copy pasting, apologies for typos that may be present.

We will instead use 20 kwh/ton (20 kwh to pulverize 1 ton of solid rock into fine powder.. )
Quote:
conversion is based on the density of rock - I'll use 2700 kg/m^3 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_crust - "Consisting mostly of granitic rock, continental crust has a density of about 2.7 g/cm3" )

http://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-e...-kWh-to-J.html
20 kwh = 72000000 J
907 kg / 2700 kg/m^3 = 0.3359 m^3 = 335900 cm^3
72000000 J / 335900 cm^3 = 214.35 J/cc
cool

so I need to switch 1600 with 214.35 and hopefully get a more realistic swing speed (by shamelessly copy-pasting an old calc)


49,711.2 m^3 * 1,000,000 = 49,711,200,000 cc * 214.35 = 10,655,595,720,000 Joules

With this, we can now calculate the average force exerted by the shockwave.

10,655,595,720,000 / 45.75 = 232,909,196,065.6 N, the average force exerted by the shockwave.

Next I need to find the area affected by the shockwave so I can find pressure.

The area of an oval is pi * radius 1 * radius 2

So 3.14 * 22.875 * 38.775 = 2,785.111 m^2, the area affected by the shockwave.

P = F/A

232,909,196,065.6 / 2,785.111 =83,626,539.86 N/m^2 / 1,000 = 83,626.54 Kpa, the pressure exerted by the shockwave.

With our pressure in Kilopascals, we can now find the speed of the shockwave with the Rayleigh Pitot Tube Formula.



Above is the exact formula. Just to specify a few things:

Pt = Pressure total, 83,626.54 Kpa
P1 = Atmospheric pressure, I'll be using 101.325 Kpa here.
Y = Specific heat Ratio, here I'll be using 1.4, which is basically something for perfect conditions.

Pt / P1 = ( ( y + 1)^2 M^2 / 4y M^2 - 2 (y - 1) ) y / y - 1 (1 - y) + 2y M^2 / y + 1


83,626.54 / 101.325 = ( (1.4 + 1)^2 * M^2 / 4 * 1.4 M^2 - 2 (1.4 - 1) ) 1.4 / 1.4 - 1 (1 - 1.4) + 2 * 1.4 M^2 / 1.4 + 1.

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4)+(2.8 * M^2) / .4

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-.4/.4)+(2.8 * M^2 /.4)

825.33 = (5.76*M^2) / (5.6 * M^2 - .8) 3.5 * (-1+(7 * M^2)

miracles of modern technology

M = 10.32

Aizen was able to keep up with this, and surpassed it at the end of the fight only to be surpassed again.

Naruto calc's top out at Mach 5 going by Madara's, and the higher end feats with the 4th's teleportation technique. I can post these too, but it'll be copy pasting from other users as I feel lazy right now.

[Xondoure]

So when Rock Lee is moving faster than the eye can follow (during a chunin exam) that's lower than Mach 5?

[Fan]

So when Rock Lee is moving faster than the eye can follow (during a chunin exam) that's lower than Mach 5?

By a good measure. Faster than eye movement on something as large as a person doesn't need to be as fast as a fighter jet. You don't even need to be mach.

Any breaking of the sound barrier would've caused collateral damage, or at least had an obvious mach cone or boom, or some other manner of extrapolating it could be anything else through science.

Anything else, speculation.

[Xondoure]

By a good measure. Faster than eye movement on something as large as a person doesn't need to be as fast as a fighter jet.

Any breaking of the sound barrier would've caused collateral damage, or at least had an obvious mach cone or boom, or some other manner of extrapolating it could be anything else through science.

Anything else, speculation.

Ah but see here we run into manga physics problems. Kishi isn't necessarily thinking of this, and I wouldn't expect to see a sonic boom from any generic mangaka outside of some special attack technique (Guile, Street Fighter, Sonic the Hedgehog.) Meanwhile a genin (admittedly a gifted extremely hard working one) was already moving so fast he was a blur. But since, that admittedly tells us very little (that being mostly viewer perspective) let's look at how many rotations Lee was making around Gaara per second, estimate the perimeter of the circle he's making, and judge his speed from there.

Oh wait, half of that is guess work in a medium that cares more about flair than realism.

Not to mention any calcs would be taken from the anime, and thus would not necessarily account for the speed of the participants in their manga incarnations.

Personally I don't think it matters since Madara's eyes most certainly can keep up with Aizen however fast he moves, and using eye techniques means Amaterasu at least would be able to keep up. Not to mention the shenanigans* of rineggan level power (gravity manipulation for starters.)

That said, Aizen is a dangerous heavy hitter in his own right, and if Madara tries to tank a Cero, he might be out of luck.

*Shenanigan is now the official translation of sharingan in my head canon.

[Fan]

Ah but see here we run into manga physics problems. Kishi isn't necessarily thinking of this, and I wouldn't expect to see a sonic boom from any generic mangaka outside of some special attack technique (Guile, Street Fighter, Sonic the Hedgehog.) Meanwhile a genin (admittedly a gifted extremely hard working one) was already moving so fast he was a blur. But since, that admittedly tells us very little (that being mostly viewer perspective) let's look at how many rotations Lee was making around Gaara per second, estimate the perimeter of the circle he's making, and judge his speed from there.

Oh wait, half of that is guess work in a medium that cares more about flair than realism.

Not to mention any calcs would be taken from the anime, and thus would not necessarily account for the speed of the participants in their manga incarnations.

Personally I don't think it matters since Madara's eyes most certainly can keep up with Aizen however fast he moves, and using eye techniques means Amaterasu at least would be able to keep up. Not to mention the shenanigans* of rineggan level power (gravity manipulation for starters.)

That said, Aizen is a dangerous heavy hitter in his own right, and if Madara tries to tank a Cero, he might be out of luck.

*Shenanigan is now the official translation of sharingan in my head canon.

Humor, genre conventions, and sarcasm doesn't disprove the calcs. Unless you have hard science to back up your claims, please don't make them.

The calcs were also taken from the manga.

Mach 10 is also considerably faster than human perception, though I will give that the Sharingan would improve this, but not enough to exceed the top speeds in Naruto which he does have some difficulty keeping track of.

[Xondoure]

Humor, genre conventions, and sarcasm doesn't disprove the calcs. Unless you have hard science to back up your claims, please don't make them.

The calcs were also taken from the manga.

Mach 10 is also considerably faster than human perception, though I will give that the Sharingan would improve this, but not enough to exceed the top speeds in Naruto which he does have some difficulty keeping track of.

There is no hard science in a world where characters continuously violate the laws of physics.