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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post

    For some new grist for the mill: What Belkar does in the current strip to avoid the arrow-trap looks a lot like "use a mount for cover". Should we assume that this was a use of the Ride skill (DC 15)? Though I'm not sure how much this gets us, since Ride can be used untrained.
    I'm not sure. It looks more like Belkar is stabbing the hellhound in order to make it rear up in pain, and thus get hit by the bolts from the trap. Probably more an attack roll than a Ride check. I have no idea whether there is any type of combat manoeuvre or Feat that might cover something like that. I suspect not.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I think strip #866 might be a better link to show V's Knowledge (religion). Blackwing correctly identifies the Draketooth mummy as such. A familiar uses "either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever are better" to determine which checks it can make and how well it can make them. Ravens don't normally have ranks in Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (religion) is trained-only, so Blackwing must have used V's ranks to make that check. QED, V has ranks in Knowledge (religion).
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2013-02-12 at 09:22 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    What about equipment that the character doesn't have?
    I.e. 869 proves that Belkar has no Ring of Freedom of Movement, a standard piece of equipment for any melee character >= lvl 11.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2013-02-13 at 07:12 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    What about equipment that the character doesn't have?
    I.e. 869 proves that Belkar has no Ring of Freedom of Movement, a standard piece of equipment for any melee character >= lvl 11.
    Do we want long lists of items to show what characters do not have though? I think most of us would rather know what they have instead of what they don't have.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Listing ways the characters differ from Internet-approved optimization templates is something that, in Belkar's phrasing, I oppose so hard.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    What about equipment that the character doesn't have?
    I.e. 869 proves that Belkar has no Ring of Freedom of Movement, a standard piece of equipment for any melee character >= lvl 11.
    In addition to EmperorSarda's remark, a standard TO-recommended item for your typical 'I can buy any item I want' adventuring party is not the same thing as a standard item for a high-level character in OotS. They don't have a 10' pole either, but I don't see that absence going on the list anytime soon.

    EDIT: Dat ninja.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-02-14 at 06:47 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Beyond that if we start listing things that a character doesn't have, there'll be some long lists. Reminds me of an old commercial for a candy bar (I think it was Snickers) that had a fast talking listing things that it didn't have in it, including The Great Wall of China.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    In 861, they run into at least 5 Mummies, and not one of them is paralyzed with fear.
    Is that an indication that Durkon had numerous Freedom of Movement buffs cast on the party?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    In 861, they run into at least 5 Mummies, and not one of them is paralyzed with fear.
    Is that an indication that Durkon had numerous Freedom of Movement buffs cast on the party?
    None of them appear particularly afraid. Maybe V handed Durkon some of her 27 potions of heroism. And Belkar was caught out by Hold Person, so...no.

    Considering that your argument in the comic thread depends on Durkon being an idiot for not casting Freedom of Movement, I'm baffled as to how you can argue here that he DID cast it.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    What about equipment that the character doesn't have?
    Yes, and let's also include a list of all feats that the character doesn't have, and the races and classes that they aren't

    Let's start with Roy. Let's see, he is not an elf, nor an aasimar, nor a dwarf, and I'm pretty sure he's not an aarakocra either, or however you spell that. He is not a cleric, nor a bard, nor a truenamer, and he doesn't own a mecha, nor does he possess a live tyrannosaurus, nor does he wear the Crimson Mantle. Hm, this is going to be a long list...

    Jokes aside, I think we can agree that this is widely impractical.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Yes, and let's also include a list of all feats that the character doesn't have, and the races and classes that they aren't

    Let's start with Roy. Let's see, he is not an elf, nor an aasimar, nor a dwarf, and I'm pretty sure he's not an aarakocra either, or however you spell that. He is not a cleric, nor a bard, nor a truenamer, and he doesn't own a mecha, nor does he possess a live tyrannosaurus, nor does he wear the Crimson Mantle. Hm, this is going to be a long list...

    Jokes aside, I think we can agree that this is widely impractical.
    For races, a character can only be one of them, so your argument is absurd.
    Similarly with classes - the amount of free levels for those is far too small to suggest they have anything but the established classes.

    But for feats - why not, as long as we have a direct in-comic confirmation that he really doesn't have such a feat? I.e. if a character provoked an attack of opportunity that would've been prevented by a certain feat?

    That is, if there is a particular strip that dictates a certain missing item or feat - it might be useful to mention it, too.

    For example, since no one in the party was paralyzed during an encounter with 5+ mummies (that's 25 DC 16 rolls for all the five characters, at least one guaranteed failed roll even if they all have ridiculously high will saves, which they don't), it indicates that they have some kind of protection from such paralyzis - and that rises a question of why was Belkar affected by a Hold Person.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2013-02-17 at 08:24 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    For races, a character can only be one of them, so your argument is absurd.
    Similarly with classes - the amount of free levels for those is far too small to suggest they have anything but the established classes.

    But for feats - why not, as long as we have a direct in-comic confirmation that he really doesn't have such a feat? For example, if a character provoked an attack of opportunity that would've been prevented by a certain feat?

    That is, if there is a particular strip that dictates a certain missing item or feat - it might be useful to mention it, too.
    In order to prevent massive spillover into inclusion of completely useless information (as opposed to only mostly useless), you'd have to be very very particular about exactly what deserves to get on the list. Can you imagine the debates? It's bad enough just recording characteristics they actually have.

    Plus, some negatives are subsumed under positives, e.g. V can't cast Teleport because Conjuration and Necromancy are her barred schools for her Evocation specialty.

    I think it would be instructive for you to provide a few examples of negative information that could in any way prove to be useful.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    To what extent it actually makes sense, we already have that sort of thing in the descriptions:
    Vaarsuvius
    [...]
    Skills (108+)[...], Ride 0, Spot 0, Search 0, Speak Language: [...] not draconic (SSDT),
    "Does not have this item someone on the forum thinks anyone of that level should have," on the other hand, not so much.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    For example, since no one in the party was paralyzed during an encounter with 5+ mummies (that's 25 DC 16 rolls for all the five characters, at least one guaranteed failed roll even if they all have ridiculously high will saves, which they don't), it indicates that they have some kind of protection from such paralyzis - and that rises a question of why was Belkar affected by a Hold Person.
    Only two characters saw the mummies: Roy and Haley. Belkar didn't drop until after the smoke bomb. Similar with Durkon. And since Elan did nothing, we can say he did miss his rolls.

    Besides, with the mummies going ahead while the LG stopped to talk, it is perfectly possible that Roy and Haley did miss all their rolls, were paralysed for 24 seconds, and then, once the shock passed, went ahead with the attack. It takes a long time to walk down a trapped corridor, so Roy spending 4 rounds paralysed with fear would not mean loosing the chance to spring the ambush. Furthermore, a long enough corridor (and everything shows the corridor being long and straight) would similarly give plenty of time for the OotS to see the mummies, be paralysed, and get over it before they came anywhere close.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Either has dex 15 or wears light or no armor, to use two-weapon pounce.
    Belkar's dex is completely immaterial, unless he spent character feats on Greater Two Weapon Fighting. If we accept that he uses the two weapon fighting style, we can prove that he didn't change out of armor when he full-attacks here getting six attacks after using Two Weapon Pounce here.

    Now, if he doesn't have the TWF combat style (I will be confused) at some point he should have done something other than TWF, and he has to have a Dex of 19. However, that's unlikely enough that we should dismiss it. We do have his Two Weapon Fighting feats listed as bonuses, indicating they're from his combat style. Therefore, he doesn't have to use any dex at all.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that proves he normally wears light or no armor.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Malack is a vampire.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by mawexzon View Post
    Malack is a vampire.
    Yep.

    Belkar is not yet a vampire, but in great and imminent danger of becoming one.

    Notes on Vampires for those who want to discuss the implications.
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  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    And Malack is also Evil, vampires always are.
    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Remember the D&D definition of "always" when it comes to alignment is a bit looser.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Always= There are rare exceptions.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Remember the D&D definition of "always" when it comes to alignment is a bit looser.
    In general that's right, however:

    Quote Originally Posted by d20 SRD
    Vampires are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities.
    I think this additional elaboration provides enough of a specific case where we can label him evil beyond reasonable doubt. Of course maybe I'm misreading it. What do you guys think?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    It's mostly that there's nonevil vampires in D&D novels- Jander Sunstar, the elf vampire in the Ravenloft novel Vampire of the Mists, comes across as nonevil at the start of the novel (and in the two short stories set prior to it).

    May be a case of automatic change of alignment to evil- but retaining of some conscience, and after some hard work, a change of alignment to Neutral, in his case.

    I do think that at the moment the presumption shifts to "evil unless later evidence shows otherwise" though.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Van Richten's Guide to Vampires provided a method by which a vampire can retain "surviving goodness" very-temporarily. I think it involved rolling under your Wisdom on 8d6. (I'd say "so good luck, Belkar," if he had any goodness to survive anyway.) The writeups of Jander in 2ed indicated he was Chaotic Neutral.

    In 3ed, the writeup of Jander went into some length about his nobility and restraint in the text...and then the stat block declared he was Chaotic Evil anyway.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    So Malack is ECL 19+? I imagine Tarquin is ECL 19+ as well.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Why 19+? Last I heard his confirmed minimum level is 11 and we're not sure what kind of vampire he is, making him ECL 13+ at minimum or 16+ if he's a Vampire Lord.

    EDIT: Never mind, was thinking CR not LA. With LA, yeah, min ECL 19+.
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2013-02-18 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Yes, and let's also include a list of all feats that the character doesn't have, and the races and classes that they aren't

    Let's start with Roy. Let's see, he is not an elf, nor an aasimar, nor a dwarf, and I'm pretty sure he's not an aarakocra either, or however you spell that. He is not a cleric, nor a bard, nor a truenamer, and he doesn't own a mecha, nor does he possess a live tyrannosaurus, nor does he wear the Crimson Mantle. Hm, this is going to be a long list...

    Jokes aside, I think we can agree that this is widely impractical.
    You forgot to list what names we know they don't have. Roy is not an A, an AA, an aA, an aAaaAAaaAaA, a ..., a ;q;oiajsdg, or

    Okay, you get the idea.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    In general that's right, however:



    I think this additional elaboration provides enough of a specific case where we can label him evil beyond reasonable doubt. Of course maybe I'm misreading it. What do you guys think?
    I'm pretty sure Rich doesn't follow that rule. The whole point of Redcloak's plots is that that doesn't apply to goblins and other living mosnters, so it might also not apply to vampires.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by mawexzon View Post
    Malack is a vampire.
    Well, probably, and we've certainly been suspicious of this all along, but lets not immediately jump to conclusions.

    Is there anything else he could be? What else could he be that would allow this?

    Edit - I will also note that I'm quite pleased at this turn of events, as it helps enormously in explaining how Malack could be merely 11+ while Tarquin could be 17+ in terms of class abilities.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-02-18 at 07:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Well, probably, and we've certainly been suspicious of this all along, but lets not immediately jump to conclusions.

    Is there anything else he could be? What else could he be that would allow this?

    Edit - I will also note that I'm quite pleased at this turn of events, as it helps enormously in explaining how Malack could be merely 11+ while Tarquin could be 17+ in terms of class abilities.
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    Last edited by mawexzon; 2013-02-18 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Malack is ECL 22+ when you add on his 1 lizardfolk level and 2 racial HD.

    Tarquin's team may even be a match for Team Evil.
    Last edited by DaveMcW; 2013-02-18 at 11:07 PM.

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