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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post

    Okay. I'm not convinced that "equal standing" means "equal level"; it could also mean e.g. rank in their respective churches. Is there perhaps more evidence on the topic?
    Isn't Malack High priest of Nergal? In that case, It wouldn't be equal rank in their respective churches, since Durkon was practically banished (in secret, not officialy) from his church.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Malack is high priest of the EoB. Not necessarily the high priest of Nergal, unless I missed something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Okay. I'm not convinced that "equal standing" means "equal level"; it could also mean e.g. rank in their respective churches. Is there perhaps more evidence on the topic?
    Not at present.

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    He could just mean "a fellow cleric who spent a number of years adventuring."
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I'm sorry if I missed it, but just for the sake of completeness, have we gotten confirmation that Malack is a vampire? We've had other examples in-comic of undead creatures that can convert others into creatures of their own type by biting them--creatures that aren't vulnerable to sunlight, like Malack isn't.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baphomet View Post
    I'm sorry if I missed it, but just for the sake of completeness, have we gotten confirmation that Malack is a vampire? We've had other examples in-comic of undead creatures that can convert others into creatures of their own type by biting them--creatures that aren't vulnerable to sunlight, like Malack isn't.
    Yes, he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    OK, trying not to comment too much on stuff that will be explained in future comics but:

    You guys are overthinking the black speech bubble thing. Remember that the speech bubbles are an artifact of the comic strip process, which means they are subservient to the story. Obviously, it was narratively important to hide that Malack was undead, so therefore I decided he only speaks in black speech bubbles when he "vamps out." After all, vampires in fiction have a long history of having traits that only pop out when they feed: their fangs elongate, their eyes turn read, maybe their face gets all demony-looking if you want to go the Buffy the Vampire Slayer route. Changing voice is not outside of that realm.

    Also, I already pointed out that Tarquin was able to change his speech balloons just by adopting a different way of speaking. It's not my fault no one extrapolated that to mean that characters—like the one floating next to him—can disguise/change the visual appearance of their balloons.

    As far as other questions, you'll have to wait and see.

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Tarquin identifies a Blade Barrier spell in this comic. The DC for identifying an already-cast spell is 20+spell level, so that's a DC 26 Spellcraft check that he makes. Can we infer anything from this?
    Last edited by Flame of Anor; 2013-02-24 at 05:44 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    Tarquin identifies a Blade Barrier spell in this comic. The DC for identifying an already-cast spell is 20+spell level, so that's a DC 26 Spellcraft check that he makes. Can we infer anything from this?
    Well, we can maybe infer that he has at least a +6 Spellcraft, likely higher. And it is a trained only skill, so he would have some ranks in it. Unless the Giant rules that a character can sometimes identify spells he has seen in action and taken note of, regardless of skill ranks. I'm sure, for example, that most people in the Order could identify Explosive Runes without Spellcraft ranks.

    But going the route of assuming the rules are being changed without any indication of them being changed is a bigger assumption than just assuming Tarquin has Spellcraft ranks. I doubt the Giant had it in mind to clue us in that Tarquin would need to have X many skill ranks to identify the barrier. But I do think that he was trying to show the audience that Tarquin is a knowledgeable guy. That knowledge would be best translated as training in spellcraft.

    With Tarquin's possible epic level and likely high Int./plentiful magic items? I wouldn't be surprised if he had a spellcraft check of 15+.
    Last edited by SowZ; 2013-02-24 at 06:21 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    Tarquin identifies a Blade Barrier spell in this comic. The DC for identifying an already-cast spell is 20+spell level, so that's a DC 26 Spellcraft check that he makes. Can we infer anything from this?
    I know the SRD rules don't mention this, but wouldn't a spell with a highly recognisable effect have a lower DC? I mean a "Blade Barrier" literally puts a barrier made of blades into place, there are no other spells that do this (apart maybe from an illusion that would imitate the effect). This is quite different from, for instance, Harm, another 6th level spell, where the effect is inflicting damage and could be caused by any number of spells. Could such a highly recognisable effect be considered as a circumstance bonus?

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    Tarquin identifies a Blade Barrier spell in this comic. The DC for identifying an already-cast spell is 20+spell level, so that's a DC 26 Spellcraft check that he makes. Can we infer anything from this?
    As it was cast by Mallack, no, we can't - I'm quite sure you don't need Spellcraft to identify spell you're familiar with.

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Spellcraft is also for identifying which spells are currently being cast. Once it's done, it is much easier to determine that just was a Fireball.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I have frequently read on these forums how sub-par are the choices OOTS made concerning their feat/class/item selection.
    Since we already know quite a bit of their stats, as well as the threats they had to face - were there any threads about the more optimal choices they could've made with their resources? Of course, sticking to their preferred party roles...

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I was thinking, should V have the spells Flamefinger and Distant Inferno from OtOoPC listed?

  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Just wondering, doesn't Xykon have a ring that protects him from positive energy like in SoD? Or is that the Ring of Protection already listed? (I'm not familiar with 3.5)
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  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by mawexzon View Post
    I was thinking, should V have the spells Flamefinger and Distant Inferno from OtOoPC listed?
    Isn't Distant Inferno more "Massive Fireball to Own Face?"

  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Procyonpi View Post
    Isn't Distant Inferno more "Massive Fireball to Own Face?"
    And Energy Drain is just Double-Powered Enervation, but it still is considered a different spell

  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Procyonpi View Post
    Isn't Distant Inferno more "Massive Fireball to Own Face?"
    In the actual effect, yes. That's due to an unintentional scribing error, however, and the official name is still Distant Inferno.

    I will be very surprised if Rich ever has V actually use it in the comic, though, so I don't think it matters. I think it would be highly amusing, but it depends too much on people having read a print-only book and it being useful would take too contrived circumstances. The amount of setup required for that joke just seems too much to be worth it.
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  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    I have frequently read on these forums how sub-par are the choices OOTS made concerning their feat/class/item selection.
    Since we already know quite a bit of their stats, as well as the threats they had to face - were there any threads about the more optimal choices they could've made with their resources? Of course, sticking to their preferred party roles...
    For starters, it's easy to shift into classes/PrCs that would significantly boost their power. Even keeping a lot of the personal touches (Roy's ancestral sword, V's preference for blasting, Haley's archery, and so on), there are much better options, such as...
    Roy: Warblade
    Elan: Sublime Chord
    V: Incantatrix
    Durkon: Contemplative or (given the campaign) Sacred Exorcist
    Haley: Dip into a casting class (e.g. Warlock) for spells that work well with archery
    Belkar: Ye gods, just pick anything else.

    Even keeping the same classes and sticking to Core, there's lots of little things that would make them more powerful. Buy/find Rings of Freedom of Movement, or have Durkon cast it. Build Durkon or V more around buffing/debuffing. Build Roy more like, well, Tarquin. Give Haley a Splitting bow. Etc.

    I mean, it's plain that this would be bad for the narrative, but if you want to rebuild the OotS as a high-op party, you could start here.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-02-24 at 05:45 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #408
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corneel View Post
    I know the SRD rules don't mention this, but wouldn't a spell with a highly recognisable effect have a lower DC?
    Not by RAW, which is what we're working with by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    As it was cast by Mallack, no, we can't - I'm quite sure you don't need Spellcraft to identify spell you're familiar with.
    I don't see that anywhere on the Spellcraft SRD page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Spellcraft is also for identifying which spells are currently being cast.
    But blade barrier had already been cast; thus, that is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter
    Once it's done, it is much easier to determine that just was a Fireball.
    Again, I don't see this anywhere in the SRD.

    Quote Originally Posted by mawexzon View Post
    I was thinking, should V have the spells Flamefinger and Distant Inferno from OtOoPC listed?
    I agree.
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  19. - Top - End - #409
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    To determine the Effect of a spell is not the same as to determine the Spell...



    Something is strange with Belkar's Wisdom score:

    Cure Serious Wounds is a Cleric spell level 3, Ranger level 4

    To be able to cast it, he needed 10+4 = Wisdom of 14 (or 13, if you think one should go with the Durkon's spell limit)

    Owl's Wisdom can only increase it by 4, so his minimum Wisdom is 9-10
    And that doesn't give any penalty...

    Furthermore, since the "penalty" comic was after the "scroll use" comic, we can't even argue that he invested some points into it...
    Last edited by SinsI; 2013-02-25 at 03:06 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #410
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    Not by RAW, which is what we're working with by default.

    I don't see that anywhere on the Spellcraft SRD page.

    "Circumstance Modifier

    A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source."

    IMHO it's within a reasonable doubt that Rich could have given Tarquin a circumstance bonus to recognize a spell cast by his old friend and companion who has probably cast it in front of Tarquin before. In fact, in that case it would be more a case of remembering what it looks like than identifying a novel spell; I don't know that I'd make him roll Spellcraft at all in this situation.

    And hey, it's also a DC 21 check to recognize a spell being cast from its verbal and somatic components, but nobody's saying it's likely Gannji has ranks in Spellcraft.

  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by mawexzon View Post
    I was thinking, should V have the spells Flamefinger and Distant Inferno from OtOoPC listed?
    Good catch. Added.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tentacle View Post
    Just wondering, doesn't Xykon have a ring that protects him from positive energy like in SoD? Or is that the Ring of Protection already listed? (I'm not familiar with 3.5)
    That's a different ring (the ring of protection only gives a bonus to his AC).

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    To be able to cast it, he needed 10+4 = Wisdom of 14 (or 13, if you think one should go with the Durkon's spell limit)
    The level of a scroll is set by the one who creates it, not the one who casts it. By RAW, some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid.
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  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    We can add Protection from Daylight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html) to Malak's spell list.
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  23. - Top - End - #413
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Malack has homebrewed a Protection from Daylight spell, so I've added that.

    And it looks like Durkon has perfected Mass Death Ward.
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  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    We can add Protection from Daylight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html) to Malak's spell list.
    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Malack has homebrewed a Protection from Daylight spell, so I've added that.

    And it looks like Durkon has perfected Mass Death Ward.
    Thank you!
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  25. - Top - End - #415
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    But blade barrier had already been cast; thus, that is irrelevant.
    Yes. That was my point. Good you caught it.
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  26. - Top - End - #416
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Also we can confirm that Belkar's minimum pre-drain constitution was 2, as a Vampire's Blood Drain deals 1d4 Con drain. The next few comics may still render this moot, but it's a solid boundary.
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  27. - Top - End - #417
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Durkon should have the "unfinished" removed from "Mass Death Ward", since he already got it working.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    And hey, it's also a DC 21 check to recognize a spell being cast from its verbal and somatic components, but nobody's saying it's likely Gannji has ranks in Spellcraft.
    Is Spellcraft even used in OotS? For instance, we have non-casters like Haley and Roy routinely identifying spells, both as they are cast and active ones.
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  29. - Top - End - #419
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Well, if someone says "Blade Barrier" and a blade of barrier appears, i think the effect would be pretty obvious.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The level of a scroll is set by the one who creates it, not the one who casts it. By RAW, some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid.
    Still requires a minimum of 13 Wisdom to cast it. This pins Belkar's possible Wisdom score to be 9 to 12 without the buff - and none of those give a penalty.

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