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  1. - Top - End - #451
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    "...if not higher."
    So Nale's level wouldn't give the exact level of Elan, but it would give an upper limit. Though I do personally think they are of equal level.
    Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2013-02-25 at 09:08 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I would be very surprised to learn that any two of the nine* adventurers currently making up the Order of the Stick and the Linear Guild are different levels**.

    *If Tarquin, Malack, and Kilkil are Linear Guild members, Redcloak has a bridge to Terebithia to sell you.
    **ECL for Sabine may interfere with this. But something--either her actual class level or her ECL--is the same as the level of Nale, which is the same as the level of Haley, which is the same as the level of Roy, etc., etc.
    It's been explicitily show that not all members of the OotS level up at the same time. Even if they happen to all be at the same level right now, they haven't been throughout the whole story.

    Quote Originally Posted by EatAtEmrakuls
    I don't know about this honestly.

    I think too much stock is being put into a one-off joke about a bit-part villain.
    Beyond that, Crystal and Haley were shown to have been rivals long before the events of the story start--it's part of Haley's backstory. Nale and Elan only became rivals during the course of the story--Elan wasn't even aware of Nale's existance, and while Nale knew of Elan, he did offer Elan the chance to join up with the Linear Guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage
    If, hypothetically, you rolled up a high-Int Fighter in a party with a Wizard, and that Wizard cast Blade Barrier in a fight (using the OotS method of shouting "Blade Barrier" to make it obvious to all and sundry), and a few days later the Fighter saw the same spell in effect, having already been cast by the same Wizard, would you make him roll Spellcraft to identify it?

    The rules are contingent on how a reasonable DM would use them. It is entirely reasonable for a DM to rule that Tarquin recognizes Blade Barrier without a check in this case. And since the burden of proof rests firmly on those seeking to add information to the OP, I don't have to provide my own evidence; I only have to subject yours to a reasonable doubt. Which is a reasonable rule, as 'Tarquin doesn't necessarily have ranks in Spellcraft' is not a claim that can be proved with evidence, yet it is the counterclaim to yours.
    I agree. In gameplay, knowledge checks are supposed to be used to see if a character has knowledge of something based on their background and out-of-game training, not things they have learned about in-game. For example, if an adventuring party has never encountered a bugbear in-game before, a knowledge check is appropriate to see if any of them know enough lore to recognize the creature they are encountering. If one of them does, and tells the others, "That's a bugbear" then from then on, all of the party should recognize a bugbear if they encounter one again, without any knowledge checks (baring things like having their memories wiped, etc.).

    In the context of a story, rather than in gameplay, if the author decides that a character has seen his teammate casts a specific spell before, and recognizes it, then the character does so.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Well, we can maybe infer that he has at least a +6 Spellcraft, likely higher. And it is a trained only skill, so he would have some ranks in it. Unless the Giant rules that a character can sometimes identify spells he has seen in action and taken note of, regardless of skill ranks. I'm sure, for example, that most people in the Order could identify Explosive Runes without Spellcraft ranks.
    It strikes me that the Giant is very consistent in which people can identify spells and which cannot. For instance, in the Order, Roy and Haley appear to be capable of identifying them, whereas Belkar and Elan can't. Gannji does, but Enor doesn't either. Perhaps we can infer something from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    And it looks like Durkon has perfected Mass Death Ward.
    Added now.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tentacle View Post
    Just wondering, doesn't Xykon have a ring that protects him from positive energy like in SoD?
    Oceanic, you should probably add this one :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
    Ah, yeah. So it must be precisely 9, instead of <=9...
    That's a clear RAW explanation of what happens, then. I don't think that "but The Giant might not use some rule" is a strong argument; the whole point of this thread is to assume that he does follow the rules and see what they might be. You could counter pretty much everything in this thread with the argument "or The Giant might not use that rule", but I really don't see the point in that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Also we can confirm that Belkar's minimum pre-drain constitution was 2, as a Vampire's Blood Drain deals 1d4 Con drain.
    But doesn't every adventurer have a minimum constitution of 3 anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    In a recent Strip, Durkon Holy Worded the Linear Guild. Z'zdriti was deafened but not blinded (as Tarquin could Drow Sign Language him). Therefore Z= Level 16. In Strip 795, Varsuuvius says that Z'zdriti is of equal level to him. Therefore, Z and V are both Level 16.
    Good catch. The whole business of nemeses aside, in 795 Vaarsuvius outright states that Z is the same level. And Z should be 16, not 13-16, because 860 doesn't tell us whether he's blinded or not, but 862 does.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Oceanic, you should probably add this one :)
    Actually I was operating under the assumption that Xykon lost everything not explicitly recovered after he was thrown into the gate and Dorukan's Dungeon exploded. Is that a good idea or should I reverse that idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    But doesn't every adventurer have a minimum constitution of 3 anyway?
    I thought it was only intelligence that had a lower boundary because 3 Intelligence is required for Sapience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Good catch. The whole business of nemeses aside, in 795 Vaarsuvius outright states that Z is the same level. And Z should be 16, not 13-16, because 860 doesn't tell us whether he's blinded or not, but 862 does.
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Actually I was operating under the assumption that Xykon lost everything not explicitly recovered after he was thrown into the gate and Dorukan's Dungeon exploded. Is that a good idea or should I reverse that idea?
    It was a good idea while they were roaming about, but not now that they have had a base for a few months. We know Xykon spent most days crafting magic object (from the complaint that he can only do 8 hours of such work a day, even though he is awake all 24), and we know he prides himself in protecting himself from damage types. While strictly speaking he has probably lost the original ring, it is extremely likely he has crafted a second one by now, to substitute it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    I thought it was only intelligence that had a lower boundary because 3 Intelligence is required for Sapience.
    I think that was a reference to the fact that the lowest you can roll in 3 dice is a 3.

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  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I think that was a reference to the fact that the lowest you can roll in 3 dice is a 3.
    I agree this is a good hint, but we do not know if they rolled their stats at all. They might be set, there might have been some other system in use (point buy with "going below 8 to get points back", some strange rolling system)... we also have no idea what adjustments after character creation might apply, so stats below 3 seem not impossible to obtain.

    While it - very strictly - seem possible to have stats below 3, I doubt that matters at all (if any stat was that extremely low (1 or 2), we very probably would get told it in-comic) and we can set 3 as minimum due to 3d6 gives at least 3.
    While the comic does not tell us Belkar's con is that or that high, I think we can totally and safely outrule "2 or 3" based on his performance in fights we saw in the comic.
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That's a clear RAW explanation of what happens, then. I don't think that "but The Giant might not use some rule" is a strong argument; the whole point of this thread is to assume that he does follow the rules and see what they might be. You could counter pretty much everything in this thread with the argument "or The Giant might not use that rule", but I really don't see the point in that.
    Actually, there was one of those giant flame-war-like arguments about whether the ability score requirement depends on the spell's level on the Cleric list (almost certainly what was used for making the scroll) or on the Ranger list (the class that allowed Belkar to use the scroll). Using the Ranger list for this would require 14 wisdom after the buff, leading to a clear contradiction, but a sizable faction (including the person who at the time was maintaining the first post) was quite firmly convinced that the rule was not ambiguous at all and that using the Ranger list was the only correct reading of RAW.

    Thus, the decision to not use that incident as evidence for Belkar's wisdom.
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I think that was a reference to the fact that the lowest you can roll in 3 dice is a 3.

    Grey Wolf
    In D&D, the lowest Intelligence a playable character can have is 3. If you're a half-orc, with a -2 Intelligence penalty, and you roll a 3 or 4 and put that stat in your Intelligence, it cannot be reduced below 3 anyway.

    Any other stat can, with adjustments, go as low as 1. A dwarf who rolled a 4 and put it in Charisma? Congratulations, your character has a Charisma of 2. An elf who rolled a 3 and put it in Constitution? Congratulations, your character has a Constitution of 1. A gnome who rolled a 3 and put it in Strength? Strength 1. Etc.

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quick question re: Elan, probably a typo. Shouldn't Elan's level for Dashing Swordsman be 1+?

  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Actually I was operating under the assumption that Xykon lost everything not explicitly recovered after he was thrown into the gate and Dorukan's Dungeon exploded. Is that a good idea or should I reverse that idea?
    That's a good point... but we know he still has Dorukan's headband and the soul gem, and I don't think we have seen him explicitly recovering either. So I think it's a fair bet that Redcloak somehow recovered all important items when he escaped.

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Actually, there was one of those giant flame-war-like arguments about whether the ability score requirement depends on the spell's level
    That was several years ago, in 2006, and the way this thread works has substantially changed since then. The first few editions of this thread have a lot of statements like "Hinjo is a competent leader so he likely has a 14+ intelligence" or "Elan has Weapon Finesse because all good bard builds include that feat" and so forth. The thread hasn't worked this way for a long time now.
    I would be happy to see statements of RAW as to what the required ability score should be. I don't see any point in statements like "we disagreed about this seven years ago so we must never talk about it ever again".

    Quote Originally Posted by LightPhoenix View Post
    Quick question re: Elan, probably a typo. Shouldn't Elan's level for Dashing Swordsman be 1+?
    We don't usually list "1+" because it's redundant.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2013-02-26 at 04:24 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Out of curiosity:
    In the Belkar entry it states that his character level is no higher than 16 because he is deafened by Durkon's Holy Word.
    In the Durkon entry it states that his character level is 15 because that's what's required to deafen Belkar.

    Is this an example of circular reasoning?

  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drahcir View Post
    Out of curiosity:
    In the Belkar entry it states that his character level is no higher than 16 because he is deafened by Durkon's Holy Word.
    In the Durkon entry it states that his character level is 15 because that's what's required to deafen Belkar.

    Is this an example of circular reasoning?
    Nope.

    Belkar gets 7 attacks in a full attack, thus putting his level at 16+
    Durkon lost his best spell (a 7th level spell) to Ennervation, has the Good Domain, and has not cast an 8th level spell.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drahcir View Post
    Out of curiosity:
    In the Belkar entry it states that his character level is no higher than 16 because he is deafened by Durkon's Holy Word.
    In the Durkon entry it states that his character level is 15 because that's what's required to deafen Belkar.

    Is this an example of circular reasoning?
    By other independent evidence, we had a minimum level for Belkar and a maximum level for Durkon. Holy Word established that they were exactly one level apart, and the combination of that with the other limits could only be satisfied by Durkon at 15 and Belkar at 16.
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  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I'm not sure if this is even very relevant to this thread, but could the last panel of 872 be used to confirm Malack has no legs? You can clearly see the feet of other robed characters as the move in a lunging fashion. Granted, Malack admits to having a lower hemline, but it seems reasonable that you'd be able to spot a toe or two.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    RMS Oceanic, I posted this before but since Malack is a vampire his listing needs to show that he has an ECL of at least 19. 8 for being a vampire and 11 for cleric.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    @RMS Oceanic: FYI, not sure if you saw this, but consensus was achieved a few pages back that "Summon Employee Exit" shouldn't be on Celia's spell list:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    (Question about Summon Employee Exit not withdrawn.)
    Agreed. No solid evidence that it's a spell, its utility seems far too limited for a Sorcerer to waste a spell slot on it, and in context it's much more likely to be some kind of custom feature that Dorukan built into his dungeon. It also has a white aura, while Celia's spellcasting aura is blue.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    RMS Oceanic, I posted this before but since Malack is a vampire his listing needs to show that he has an ECL of at least 19. 8 for being a vampire and 11 for cleric.
    Do we record ECL? Xykon doesn't have his ECL adjusted by 4 for his Lichiness at the moment, and Z isn't adjusted by 2 for his Drowsiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    @RMS Oceanic: FYI, not sure if you saw this, but consensus was achieved a few pages back that "Summon Employee Exit" shouldn't be on Celia's spell list:
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Do we record ECL? Xykon doesn't have his ECL adjusted by 4 for his Lichiness at the moment, and Z isn't adjusted by 2 for his Drowsiness.
    Why not? When we have a confirmed ECL-adjusting race or template for a given character, should we not include that information? It's not as though Xykon's lichiness is inconsequential, either to his character sheet or to his role in the story.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Well, i think that listing ECL can help to show the effective power of a character, beyond class levels, a lot of character have defining abilities that put them beyond in power than some other characters of same level
    Last edited by mawexzon; 2013-02-27 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by mawexzon View Post
    Well, i think that listing ECL can help to show the effective power of a character, beyond class levels, a lot of character have defining abilities that put them beyond in power than some other characters of same level
    If it is not too hard to add, I'd like to have it. Since I don't know off the top of my head how to convert from level to ECL, having a reminder that they are not the same would be very useful for me.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Well, It can be easy to calculate(Class Level + Level adjustment + Racial HD), so I don't see how it could be hard to add.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    @RMS Oceanic: FYI, not sure if you saw this, but consensus was achieved a few pages back that "Summon Employee Exit" shouldn't be on Celia's spell list:
    But instead, on her abilities list.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    But instead, on her abilities list.
    Why? If it's a feature of the dungeon, it shouldn't go on her character sheet.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Why? If it's a feature of the dungeon, it shouldn't go on her character sheet.
    She was able to summon the employee exit, therefore it's an ability of hers, by definition.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    But she's not in Dorukan's Dungeon anymore, nor does she work for Dorukan, nor does Dorukan's employee exit still exist. I thought the character sheets were supposed to list current abilities, not "every ability the character ever had."

    This argument would mean we should list Haley having the ability to fly. See?
    (A long time ago? In the Dungeon of Dorukan? The result of a spell someone else cast? Certainly. Now you explain which of those doesn't apply to Celia summoning the employee exit.)
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-03-19 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I'm guessing game mechanics that are mentioned, but not seen, don't qualify to be added to the list of sources the game uses? Otherwise, Complete Warrior and Magic of Incarnum should be on the list.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Strip 873 confirms that Thor's Lightning is a third-level spell, which I suppose reopens the discussion about whether or not it's an analogue for lightning bolt. Also, has anyone been keeping count of how many spells Durkon's cast today? Doing so could help nail down his wisdom.

    EDIT: Also, Malack failed to dispel Durkon's mass death ward, meaning he failed a DC 26 caster level check, since we know from the ambush that Durkon hasn't boosted his caster level. Does that say anything about his level?
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2013-02-27 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    EDIT: Also, Malack failed to dispel Durkon's mass death ward, meaning he failed a DC 26 caster level check, since we know from the ambush that Durkon hasn't boosted his caster level. Does that say anything about his level?
    Technically yes, but I don't think anyone was seriously considering Malack being level 25 (not counting vampire level adjustment) or higher anyway.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I'm guessing game mechanics that are mentioned, but not seen, don't qualify to be added to the list of sources the game uses? Otherwise, Complete Warrior and Magic of Incarnum should be on the list.
    I think they should be, If the characters know them, then they are part of the comic-world.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I'm guessing game mechanics that are mentioned, but not seen, don't qualify to be added to the list of sources the game uses? Otherwise, Complete Warrior and Magic of Incarnum should be on the list.
    Sure. I suppose by CW you mean the Hexblade? Added.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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