Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Procyonpi]

EDIT: Also, Malack failed to dispel Durkon's mass death ward, meaning he failed a DC 26 caster level check, since we know from the ambush that Durkon hasn't boosted his caster level. Does that say anything about his level?

No, besides him not being level 26+

[EmperorSarda]

Just for the counting thus far, Malack has cast three 5th level spells today; Two Flame Strikes and a quickened inflict light wounds.

Which can mean one of several things, but not conclusive as of yet:
1. Malack has the War Domain. (Which while it fits with the whole conquering of the Western Continent, does not fit with standard domains of Nergal. Though nothing is stopping the Giant from adding the War Domain to Nergal's portfolio.
2. If Malack does not have the war domain and is at 11th level, then his wisdom is at 20.
3. Or Malack is simply 12th level or higher.

[hamishspence]

1. Malack has the War Domain. (Which while it fits with the whole conquering of the Western Continent, does not fit with standard domains of Nergal. Though nothing is stopping the Giant from adding the War Domain to Nergal's portfolio.

D&D wiki's not that reliable.

Having said that, there is an official 3.5 version of Nergal that has Death, Evil and Earth- the Sandstorm version.

However Malack's already called Nergal a god of "Death and Destruction".

Dragon Magazine 329 has a version of Nergal with Death and Destruction. Also with Chaos and Evil.

Or Nergal could have a different selection of domains, at The Giant's discretion.

[zimmerwald1915]

No, besides him not being level 26+

Well, that's something anyway

[EmperorSarda]

Or Nergal could have a different selection of domains, at The Giant's discretion.

Which is what I said. Is it likely Nergal has the War domain? No. But the Giant could have easily added it.

[hamishspence]

Yup- was just taking issue with the idea of D&Dwiki as a reliable source.

[SinsI]

Speaking of Domains. Thor, supposedly, has a Good domain. It gives +1 Caster Level to Good spells - with Holy Word being one of them.
If Durkon has it, wouldn't it screw all the calculations concerning i.e. Belkar's level?

[mawexzon]

Speaking of Domains. Thor, supposedly, has a Good domain. It gives +1 Caster Level to Good spells - with Holy Word being one of them.
If Durkon has it, wouldn't it screw all the calculations concerning i.e. Belkar's level?

I thought that was accounted for.

[SinsI]

Ah, yes. Durkon is 15, Belkar 16...

[SinsI]

No, besides him not being level 26+

Greater Dispel has an upper limit effect from caster level (20), so it gives absolutely nothing.

[Dr. Gamera]

Also, has anyone been keeping count of how many spells Durkon's cast today?

Yes, in this thread.

[Douglas]

Greater Dispel has an upper limit effect from caster level (20), so it gives absolutely nothing.

Yeah, I realized that an hour or two ago, but only just now got back to my computer. Even a level 1000 caster would have a 25% chance of failing that check.

The dialog about it is a strong indication that Malack is at the very least not at the spell's cap, though, but I'm not sure that's really up to this thread's standard of proof. I think that dialog even implies that Malack has fewer cleric levels than Durkon, but that is definitely not solid enough to make it official yet.

[EmperorSarda]

Umm... As noted, Durkon has four 7th level spells prepared:

7th level: holy (Word), Mass Death Ward (see here), Resurrection (plus one Resurrection yet to be cast).

Holy Word counts as the Good domain spell, and being 15th level means he has two 7th levels + 1 domain spell.
In order for Durkon to have a fourth 7th level spell, he would either have to be 16th level or have a wisdom score of at least 24.

Which means Belkar might be 17th level.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I realized that an hour or two ago, but only just now got back to my computer. Even a level 1000 caster would have a 25% chance of failing that check.

The dialog about it is a strong indication that Malack is at the very least not at the spell's cap, though, but I'm not sure that's really up to this thread's standard of proof. I think that dialog even implies that Malack has fewer cleric levels than Durkon, but that is definitely not solid enough to make it official yet.

I agree with both the idea that the dialogue suggests that Malack probably had less than 50% of dispelling Durkon's death ward, and that such spoken suggestions are too soft for this thread to take them into account.

GW

[St Fan]

Umm... As noted, Durkon has four 7th level spells prepared:

Holy Word counts as the Good domain spell, and being 15th level means he has two 7th levels + 1 domain spell.
In order for Durkon to have a fourth 7th level spell, he would either have to be 16th level or have a wisdom score of at least 24.

Which means Belkar might be 17th level.

Or, it could mean the Giant has corrected his expectation of the Mass Death Ward spell and is now treating it as an 8th level spell as per the rules. In this case, Durkon would have used an 8th-level spell slot for it.

[EmperorSarda]

Or, it could mean the Giant has corrected his expectation of the Mass Death Ward spell and is now treating it as an 8th level spell as per the rules. In this case, Durkon would have used an 8th-level spell slot for it.

That could be very possible. And very likely. I wonder if The Giant would clarify that at all.

[SinsI]

Umm... As noted, Durkon has four 7th level spells prepared:

Holy Word counts as the Good domain spell, and being 15th level means he has two 7th levels + 1 domain spell.
In order for Durkon to have a fourth 7th level spell, he would either have to be 16th level or have a wisdom score of at least 24.

Which means Belkar might be 17th level.

There's always a place for a Pearl of Power...

[Balance]

I'm not sure how much it really tells us, but I find it interesting that Malack felt the need to bolster himself against Durkon's turn attempt.

Turn Undead is a charisma check (1d20 + Charisma modifier), and our current conclusion is that Durkon has a negative modifier. That means his maximum Turn check is 19, which would be sufficient to turn undead of up to his level + 3 hit dice. The current reading on his level is 15 (though I see that's under discussion), which means 18 HD.

As a vampire, Malack has +4 turn resistance. Knocking that off Durkon's best possible result gives us a max of 14 HD for him to be affected. Assuming that Malack would not waste a turn bolstering himself if there was no chance of Durkon affecting him, that suggests his maximum possible level is 14.

Alternatively, assume that Durkon is level 16. His max turn then is 19; that would cap Malack at 15. (The same applies if Durkon is 15th and has Improved Turning, which is not implausible, since he's known to have Extra Turning and hates undead.)

Give a 16th level Durkon Improved Turning. His max turn then is 20; that would cap Malack at 16.

Finally, on his best 16th-level day, with Improved Turning, a natural 20, and Eagle's Splendor, Durkon could hit a turn check of 22, which would turn up to 21 HD. That would cap a remarkably turn-paranoid Malack at 17.

Thoughts?

[zimmerwald1915]

Or, it could mean the Giant has corrected his expectation of the Mass Death Ward spell and is now treating it as an 8th level spell as per the rules. In this case, Durkon would have used an 8th-level spell slot for it.

If Durkon is indeed level 15, he could simply have prepared a level 7 spell in a level 8 spell slot.

[SinsI]

Assuming that Malack would not waste a turn bolstering himself if there was no chance of Durkon affecting him, that suggests his maximum possible level is 14.

Malack doesn't know Durkon's Charisma modifier...

And it would be level 12, as he has two racial HD levels.

[EmperorSarda]

Thoughts?

First, vampires have +2 turn resistance, not +4.

We know Malack's ECL though, he has at least 11 levels of Cleric and a +8 level adjustment for being a vampire. Not to mention a +1 for being a Lizardfolk. So Malack's ECL is at least 20.

However what we know about Durkon and what Malack knows about Durkon are two different things. Firstly, Malack is probably unaware of Durkon's charisma score and is also probably unaware of Durkon's exact level of Cleric too.

Which means it probably was a smart thing for Malack to do, given what he didn't know.

[mawexzon]

Don't forget the Racial Hit dice when calculatiing ECL.
Edit:Also

Turn Resistance (Ex)

A vampire has +4 turn resistance.

[EmperorSarda]

Don't forget the Racial Hit dice when calculatiing ECL.

Whoops, I was looking at the Vampire Spawn bit about turn resistance by mistake.

But you are correct Mawexzon, with the extra die that Lizardfolk have, Malack has an ecl of at least 21.

[Chronos]

Turn Undead doesn't depend on ECL, though, just on actual level (equivalently, HD). All ECL matters for is how much XP you need to level up, and wealth by level.

[Chronos]

D'oh, hit "submit" too soon. Two other points:

1: Not only do we now know that Thor's Lightning is a 3rd-level spell, but we also know that Malak is able to recognize it as a 3rd-level spell. So unless he has detailed information about Durkon's spell list, that suggests that it is in fact a variant of a familiar spell, presumably either Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt.

2: On the other hand, Malak may well have detailed information about Durkon's spell list, given that he's been spending time with him researching a new spell. I would expect from this that he at least knows Durkon's level, relevant for the Bolster Undead argument.

[EmperorSarda]

Turn Undead doesn't depend on ECL, though, just on actual level (equivalently, HD). All ECL matters for is how much XP you need to level up, and wealth by level.

Oh. Well then that puts Malack in the 13+ HD range then. Which is plenty for Durkon to be able to turn without the bolster.

D'oh, hit "submit" too soon. Two other points:

1: Not only do we now know that Thor's Lightning is a 3rd-level spell, but we also know that Malak is able to recognize it as a 3rd-level spell. So unless he has detailed information about Durkon's spell list, that suggests that it is in fact a variant of a familiar spell, presumably either Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt.

2: On the other hand, Malak may well have detailed information about Durkon's spell list, given that he's been spending time with him researching a new spell. I would expect from this that he at least knows Durkon's level, relevant for the Bolster Undead argument.

Or Malack made a Knowledge (Religion) roll check successfully.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or Malack made a Knowledge (Religion) roll check successfully.

That'd be Spellcraft, no?

[Dark Matter]

I see nothing in the Turn Undead section which says we use ECL. It says "hit dice".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...OrRebukeUndead

Malack is:
Cleric 13+
Humanoid +2
Vampire Turn Resist +4

That's 19+

[EmperorSarda]

That'd be Spellcraft, no?

Normally. But as a DM I would allow a player to roll Knowledge Religion to know what a Diety's domains and domain spells are, and connect the dots from there.

[EmperorSarda]

I see nothing in the Turn Undead section which says we use ECL. It says "hit dice".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...OrRebukeUndead

Malack is:
Cleric 13+
Humanoid +2
Vampire Turn Resist +4

That's 19+

Technically 17+ since this thread pegs Malack as at least an 11th level cleric thus far.