Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Felixc-91]

Nale is 5'11'' according to the wanted poster.

thank you for the reminder, i just re-checked and it list's Nale's weight too. 180 pounds, add in the probable 30 for T's armor gives us around 210 pounds T was lifting there. That ups his minimum STR to 16. (that assumes that what Nale was wearing was near weightless clothing not armor)
EDIT: I am considering the poster reliable due to the fact that it was writen by Nale's father.

[Sorator]

We have objective proof that ISC is in play. V does not possess any rods, and his splices have no objects either (being souls), yet he cast a 10th-level spell.

Well, if you want to get technical, Rich could be making his own rules for such things or otherwise altering the ELH to fit his personal preference/the plot.

But I was mostly just pointing out that "as close to core as you can get for epic" is still not core, by a strict definition of it. It's not like we haven't seen non-core material in-comic before anyway, so I don't see that it has much of an impact one way or another.

[St Fan]

Mmh, no comment about the axe throw?

It certainly doesn't look like a weapon you an throw easily, so either Tarquin has the Throw Anything feat, or the axe is enchanted with the Throwing ability.

[Jezequel]

It certainly doesn't look like a weapon you an throw easily, so either Tarquin has the Throw Anything feat, or the axe is enchanted with the Throwing ability.

You can throw anything not designed to be thrown with a -4 penalty though and it's something that Tarquin was doing in a pinch, so that seems more likely.

But if he does have Throw Anything, then his Dex would have to be at least 15.

[Steven]

I know it's been dismissed because everything he has been shown to do could be explained by standard fighter feats but do any of his actions in the last couple of comics lend weight to the idea of Tarquin having some levels as a martial adept?

There are a few maneuvers that stun people although, from what I could see with a quick look, they all deal extra damage so he might not use them against Durkon.

[Kish]

Ahem.

I still have a problem with the "dress that causes Feeblemind" and the spell "Summon Employee Exit" being listed. RMS Oceanic, you said something about changing the former, at least. Is that going to happen?

[Emperordaniel]

Tarquin's still missing being trained in the Ride skill, and the table still needs updating to this:

As a rule of thumb, I tend to think of them as being around 7th-9th level or so; powerful enough to have a bunch of different storytelling options, weak enough that I can justify them running away from anything I throw at them.

As has been mentioned several times, the characters began the strip at level 8 rather than level 10. The table should read:

{table]Level||||||
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|251|???|201|???|???|186
12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
13|485, - |???|556|393|511|397
14| - |???|???|647|???|627
15| - |???|859| - |615|716
16| - |748| - | - | - | - [/table]

[zimmerwald1915]

Guys, chill, it's not like items are being ignored while others are favored. I don't think the OPs have been updated since they were posted.

[RMS Oceanic]

Guys, chill, it's not like items are being ignored while others are favored. I don't think the OPs have been updated since they were posted.

Indeed, I've been away all weekend.

Changes: Tarquin's strength is 16 based on his carrying of Elan, he has Ride Trained, and can "speak" DSL. Z can also "speak" DSL. I've rewritten Celia's dress so the feeblemind part is in sarcastic quotation marks.

[ti'esar]

Indeed, I've been away all weekend.

Changes: Tarquin's strength is 16 based on his carrying of Elan, he has Ride Trained, and can "speak" DSL. Z can also "speak" DSL. I've rewritten Celia's dress so the feeblemind part is in sarcastic quotation marks.

Tarquin carried Nale, not Elan.

[RMS Oceanic]

Tarquin carried Nale, not Elan.

Are you sure it wasn't Lean or Anel? Fixed.

[Emperordaniel]

Just thought I'd bring this over from the main thread:

Don't know if anyone else brought this up but:

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Having the throwing enhancement just negates the -4 penalty but doesn't change the action required. He was moving in that panel. Maybe he's got a belt of battle?

[Lvl45DM!]

Just thought I'd bring this over from the main thread:

I know this is Geekery but there is no way Rich cared enough about that rule. We have plenty of precedent for actions taking less time than they should. X's Still Meteor Swarm Z's instant Break Enchantment and theres probably a few more

[Emperordaniel]

X's Still Meteor Swarm

What was so "taking less time then they should" about that particular example? The Still Spell feat allows you to make a spell without hand gestures, bumping the spell up one slot - in this case, from 9th level (Meteor Swarm) to 10th level (Still Meteor Swarm) - in the process; it doesn't speed the spell up or anything.

[zimmerwald1915]

What was so "taking less time then they should" about Still Meteor Swarm? The Still Spell feat allows you to make a spell without hand gestures (bumping the spell up one slot - to 10th level - in the process); it doesn't speed the spell up or anything.

Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell makes the spell take a full-round action. One can't take full-round actions in grapple, which Xykon was when he cast Still Meteor Swarm.

In any case, Tarquin's axe could be a battleaxe rather than a greataxe. A battleaxe can be wielded two-handed, but it's properly a one-handed weapon (which is good for Tarquin considering how often he uses his free hand to catch arrows, toss dwarves, etc.) and its use in this manner requires no fudging on the Giant's part.

[Emperordaniel]

Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell makes the spell take a full-round action. One can't take full-round actions in grapple, which Xykon was when he cast Still Meteor Swarm.

Ah, thanks. I'm not so familiar with the Grapple rules after all, so that's likely why I got confused about that incident.

In any case, Tarquin's axe could be a battleaxe rather than a greataxe. A battleaxe can be wielded two-handed, but it's properly a one-handed weapon (which is good for Tarquin considering how often he uses his free hand to catch arrows, toss dwarves, etc.) and its use in this manner requires no fudging on the Giant's part.

That makes sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Team Evil

Monster In The Darkness
Please see this thread for details.

New thread link:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253731

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[RunicLGB]

Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell makes the spell take a full-round action. One can't take full-round actions in grapple, which Xykon was when he cast Still Meteor Swarm.

Xykon has never been seen with a familiar, so he could easily have the ACF from the pH2 that trades them in for rapid metamagic limited uses per day. That or there is a Feat from CM that allows rapid casting at will, which Xykon could easily qualify for.

Of course most likely is rule of cool/drama in this case.

[zimmerwald1915]

Xykon has never been seen with a familiar, so he could easily have the ACF from the pH2 that trades them in for rapid metamagic limited uses per day. That or there is a Feat from CM that allows rapid casting at will, which Xykon could easily qualify for.

Yes he could, and Metamagic Specialist is my head-geekery. But no consensus was reached when we discussed this last (was that last thread or two threads ago?), and enough people think it's more reasonable that this is one of those times when the rules are ignored or bent rather than one of those times when we ought to look for a rules-based explanation that a rules-based explanation is not listed.

[Pip]

Indeed, I've been away all weekend.

Changes: Tarquin's strength is 16 based on his carrying of Elan, he has Ride Trained, and can "speak" DSL. Z can also "speak" DSL. I've rewritten Celia's dress so the feeblemind part is in sarcastic quotation marks.

Is there a reason not to update Z's level to 16? As we saw him/her "listen" to DSL we have proof that Z was deafened, but not blinded by the Holy Word.

[Sorator]

Is there a reason not to update Z's level to 16? As we saw him/her "listen" to DSL we have proof that Z was deafened, but not blinded by the Holy Word.

Well, I agree that he probably was deafened and not blinded, but that hasn't quite been proven in the comic - it's entirely possible the blindness would wear off before the deafness, albeit unlikely, and that possibility fits the events we've seen just as well as Z being deafened and not blinded.

Edit @v: Valid point. Nevermind then, that's enough to make me shut up. ^.^

[Gilphon]

It does not, however, make sense for Tarquin to assume that the blindness would wear off before the deafness.

[zimmerwald1915]

It does not, however, make sense for Tarquin to assume that the blindness would wear off before the deafness.

Well, it's possible that the blindness would wear off before the deafness. If, say, the deafness lasted for three or four rounds and the blindness lasted for two, or if the deafness lasted four four rounds and the blindness lasted for two or three. But Tarquin can't really be expected to know that.

Come to think of it, have we ever been given a visual indication, beyond Sangwaan's blindfold, that a given character is blinded? Could we recognize blindness if Rich showed it to us?

[Pip]

Well, it's possible that the blindness would wear off before the deafness. If, say, the deafness lasted for three or four rounds and the blindness lasted for two, or if the deafness lasted four four rounds and the blindness lasted for two or three. But Tarquin can't really be expected to know that.

Come to think of it, have we ever been given a visual indication, beyond Sangwaan's blindfold, that a given character is blinded? Could we recognize blindness if Rich showed it to us?

Yes

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes

Dark glasses perform the same function as a blindfold: they obscure the eyes. I'm asking if there's any expression or change to the face that will indicate blindness. The closest I can find is here.

[ti'esar]

Well, it's possible that the blindness would wear off before the deafness. If, say, the deafness lasted for three or four rounds and the blindness lasted for two, or if the deafness lasted four four rounds and the blindness lasted for two or three. But Tarquin can't really be expected to know that.

Come to think of it, have we ever been given a visual indication, beyond Sangwaan's blindfold, that a given character is blinded? Could we recognize blindness if Rich showed it to us?

In SSDT, one of the "bonus" Dragon magazine strips features a blind duergar, who is depicted with white eyes with a black ring around them - similar to Durkon with True Seeing in effect. It's similar to, but not quite the same as, Z's normal eyes.

[Erelamar]

17+ Level, clearly a close-combat (I'm trying not to say martial for fear of people confusing it with meaning martial adept) character with good Reflex and Will saves, and only has three attacks in a full round. These are the main reason that I don't believe he is a Warblade.

Best evidence of a high wisdom is 5th panel here. Nale does not understand because his intelligence is high, but his wisdom is poor. Swordsages add wisdom to AC, which would look more like whiffs than someone just taking it on their armor.

Evasion-appearing avoidance of area effect.

The later two require light armor, which stumped me for a long time, because we know Tarquin is in plate armor.Then I randomly discovered the Halfweight enhancement, which for +3 makes any armor considered light. Where is it? The Underdark sourcebook. BTW, I do believe Tarquin has been in this armor the whole time. That's why Durkon doesn't recognize it when he saw it with True Seeing, because he's only ever seen the Empire of Blood glamour.

A variety of manuevers performed by Tarquin that are easily replicated with martial manuevers, but not so with other abilities:

Black Pearl of Doubt (Diamond Mind 3) Thematically, it is very close to what is happening.
Death from Above (Tiger Claw 4)
Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1), Soaring Throw (Setting Sun 5) versus Belkar and Durkon respectively.
Irresistible Mountain Strike (Stone Dragon 6) on Roy and Durkon.
Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind 7). He uses it to move, then full round throws axe at Belkar.

Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon disciplines both have Greataxe as an associated weapon.

Some possible Tarquin Feats (If Tarquin's 17th, he has 7 feats)

Improved Unarmed Combat, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Dodge, Sidestep Charge
Mounted Combat, Haley said she was attacking the Pterodactyl, and it does look like Tarquin is taking evasive action.
Martial Stance/Study, for some Devoted Spirit power to increase his healing beyond the Ring of Regeneration.

And, lastly, this build would conform to Malack's statement that Tarquin was not trying. In that fight he used only 6th level maneuvers and lower, which means since we know he is at least 17th level, he would have access all the way up to 9th level.

THIS WAS JUST AN EXCERCISE! I don't really believe this is Tarquin's build. It just happens to be a nifty way to do all the things he has done, and has been inferred he can still yet do. So there is a way without a bunch of multiclassing or prestige classing, or funny house-ruling things to perform all of Tarquin's actions, but it does take a real obscure armor enhancement.

Thanks to whomever first started mentioning this Tome of Battle stuff for solutions to Tarquin's first fight with the Order in the last thread, because it got me started down this path. I'm probably going to use this build as an NPC in some game.

[Emperordaniel]

In SSDT, one of the "bonus" Dragon magazine strips features a blind duergar, who is depicted with white eyes with a black ring around them - similar to Durkon with True Seeing in effect. It's similar to, but not quite the same as, Z's normal eyes.

There's also that gladiator trainer from the Empire of Blood - he has one black and one white eye, which either means that his eyes are like Tsukiko's (two different colors), or that the white eye is blind.

[Mike Havran]

I think now we can assume Z's level to be 16. Does that mean his spell resistance should be also adjusted, since it scales with level?

[Flame of Anor]

Vaarsuvius has significant ranks in Knowledge: Religion.