Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[FlawedParadigm]

I find it highly likely Roy has more Wisdom than Miko.

I don't recall ever seeing Miko cast a spell, just use Lay on Hands and Smite Evil. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if Belkar or Elan had more Wisdom than Miko.

[mawexzon]

Now that i think about it, Shouldn't Roy have ranks in Profession (Goat Herding)?

[SowZ]

I don't recall ever seeing Miko cast a spell, just use Lay on Hands and Smite Evil. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if Belkar or Elan had more Wisdom than Miko.

She is a Monk and a Paladin. Both use Wisdom. She also seems to have good AC. Sure, Roy could have a 15 and she could have a 14. But I doubt his modifier is better. I guess that it is the same. Roy likely has about 15 Wisdom. Miko having 13 or less Wisdom? I don't believe so.

[Crusher]

This is not a correct argument (i.e. it does not bolster the case). Roy, like the rest of the characters, didn't choose their skills "because they are good for an adventurer". Roy never planned to be an adventurer: his dad dropped the quest on his lap unannounced. He got his skills from a university where, like many university goers, he picked the easiest classes to pass (e.g. goat herding, IIRC).

Grey Wolf

Not entirely. He certainly got his first few skills in goat herding or whatever from school (the specifics depending on what level he was when he finished) but he's gained quite a few levels and skill points since then. He's spent at least a decent amount of time in major cities, giving him access to libraries, experts, etc so he could be justified in having picked up just about anything in the levels since then.

[Emanick]

I Stormwrack says it is a geography check, and Knowledge can't be used untrained, doesn't that prove that Roy has 1 rank it? What further arguments could be made?

I think we should err on the side of core here when considering what the requirements are to use a sextant. Since the Player's Handbook sextant description says nothing about any skill requirements for making use of it, I think we should assume that merely using a spyglass does not require ranks in a skill. Whether or not Stormwrack navigation rules are in play is an entirely open question, and even if they are, does the book ever say that spyglasses are unusable without skill ranks?

[SowZ]

Not entirely. He certainly got his first few skills in goat herding or whatever from school (the specifics depending on what level he was when he finished) but he's gained quite a few levels and skill points since then. He's spent at least a decent amount of time in major cities, giving him access to libraries, experts, etc so he could be justified in having picked up just about anything in the levels since then.

Also, Roy was training to be a Fighter. So he was probably at least considering adventuring, following in his grandads footsteps. Sure, maybe he was thinking of doing guard or caravan duty. But I bet he had adventuring in mind.

[Peelee]

I think we should err on the side of core here when considering what the requirements are to use a sextant. Since the Player's Handbook sextant description says nothing about any skill requirements for making use of it, I think we should assume that merely using a spyglass does not require ranks in a skill. Whether or not Stormwrack navigation rules are in play is an entirely open question, and even if they are, does the book ever say that spyglasses are unusable without skill ranks?

I was using Stormwrack as a reference because I could not find a sextant in the PHB. It does include a spyglass, but this is markedly different from a sextant - a spyglass is a weak telescope, and merely enlarges distant images. The sextant in Stormwrack only states its bonus for Knowledge (Geography), and has no information on whether it can be used untrained.

[Emanick]

I was using Stormwrack as a reference because I could not find a sextant in the PHB. It does include a spyglass, but this is markedly different from a sextant - a spyglass is a weak telescope, and merely enlarges distant images. The sextant in Stormwrack only states its bonus for Knowledge (Geography), and has no information on whether it can be used untrained.

Whoops, I must have confused the two instruments. My bad.

In my defense, I'm halfway through my second consecutive all-nighter, so I'm a little more prone to making obvious mistakes than usual...

[FlawedParadigm]

Miko having 13 or less Wisdom? I don't believe so.

...Have you read anything Miko has said, ever? I wasn't kidding when I said I expect Belkar and Elan probably both have better Wisdom scores. Her AC is decent because she's wearing _plate_. She doesn't get a Monk Wisdom bonus to AC while armoured. I would not be the least bit surprised if her Wisdom were 6-7. She was a sociopath at best, paranoid schizophrenic at worst. She had no empathy, and never made a single good decision outside of combat (and even then, only against the Order and the ogres.) Belkar and Elan both have her trumped there.

[dps]

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but isn't a sextant similar to some surveying instruments? We know that Roy has ranks in Knowledge (Engineering) and Knowledge (Architecture).

[SavageWombat]

I suspect if Roy had revealed he owned a set of lockpicks we'd assume he had at least one rank in Open Locks.

If (a) a sextant's only benefit is a bonus to KN: Geography, and
(b) KN: Geography checks cannot be attempted untrained, it follows that
(c) a sextant is only useful to someone with one or more ranks in KN:Geography.

If (d) Roy deliberately sought out a sextant and paid money for it, then
(e) he believed it would gain him a benefit, therefore
(f) the sextant was useful to him, ergo:
(g) he has one or more ranks in KN: Geography.

Or so it seems to me.

So, if (a) and (b) are true as stated, I think we can get to (g).

[dps]

I think that I was questioning if (a) is true.

[SavageWombat]

I think that I was questioning if (a) is true.

I understand that. I'm setting up a formal "yes or no" structure - if we can demonstrate whether (a) is true or not, we answer the question. So far, I see two sources - a general note in the SRD that does nothing to describe a sextant's game effect, and a previously discussed rule from Stormwrack.

(By contrast, the Pathfinder description for the item is more explicit, but doesn't apply in this case.)

What we need is to either find another example of a rules-use for the sextant, or reach a consensus that no other rules-uses exist.

[SowZ]

...Have you read anything Miko has said, ever? I wasn't kidding when I said I expect Belkar and Elan probably both have better Wisdom scores. Her AC is decent because she's wearing _plate_. She doesn't get a Monk Wisdom bonus to AC while armoured. I would not be the least bit surprised if her Wisdom were 6-7. She was a sociopath at best, paranoid schizophrenic at worst. She had no empathy, and never made a single good decision outside of combat (and even then, only against the Order and the ogres.) Belkar and Elan both have her trumped there.

Yeah, but at one point in time she was a Monk without Paladin levels. Anyway, yes, I've read everything Miko said. No need to be sarcastic. I don't think people's stats have that much to do with their personality. V, for example, doesn't display the decision making or intelligence of Roy, (even just raw decision making,) despite having a lower intelligence. At some point, it is just mechanics for classes. I imagine The Giant takes mental scores into account, but doesn't limit the personalities of the characters based on them.

Also, Miko probably has at least a point or two more Wisdom than Belkar because when Miko volunteered to compare their respective Wisdom modifiers Belkar just walked to the back. If Miko had THAT terrible of a Wisdom modifier, she probably would have assumed it is lower than a Ranger. Not to mention Miko was able track the group with only one rank in Survival.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not entirely. He certainly got his first few skills in goat herding or whatever from school (the specifics depending on what level he was when he finished) but he's gained quite a few levels and skill points since then. He's spent at least a decent amount of time in major cities, giving him access to libraries, experts, etc so he could be justified in having picked up just about anything in the levels since then.

I believe it's stated in OtOOPCs that Roy gained his first four levels at Fighter College.

[Kish]

Actually, just the opposite. When he leaves Fighter College, he tells his father's grave that he's joining a random party to go do random quests because he won't consider himself remotely ready to go after Xykon until he at least has Weapon Specialization.

[gorocz]

Yeah, but at one point in time she was a Monk without Paladin levels. Anyway, yes, I've read everything Miko said. No need to be sarcastic. I don't think people's stats have that much to do with their personality. V, for example, doesn't display the decision making or intelligence of Roy, (even just raw decision making,) despite having a lower intelligence. At some point, it is just mechanics for classes. I imagine The Giant takes mental scores into account, but doesn't limit the personalities of the characters based on them.

I think you're confusing intelligence (mental capacity) and wisdom (decision making) and charisma (leadership). While V is higher on Int and can thusly learn faster, analyze things thoroughly, debate etc., Roy has higher Wis and Cha, making him a better leader. He'd ask V for advice more often than Haley, but would make Haley his second in command, because you can't live only on Intelligence. It's the combination of these three stats that make up one's personality, mind and soul... But yes, not every line or action is based on their scores...actually most of them aren't based on them. Influenced probably, but surely not solely based.

[SowZ]

I think you're confusing intelligence (mental capacity) and wisdom (decision making) and charisma (leadership). While V is higher on Int and can thusly learn faster, analyze things thoroughly, debate etc., Roy has higher Wis and Cha, making him a better leader. He'd ask V for advice more often than Haley, but would make Haley his second in command, because you can't live only on Intelligence. It's the combination of these three stats that make up one's personality, mind and soul... But yes, not every line or action is based on their scores...actually most of them aren't based on them. Influenced probably, but surely not solely based.

I think Roy has displayed more of all three stats, Int., Wis., and Cha, than V. This isn't a critique on the writing, just my observation of the characters.

[Living Oxymoron]

I think that Malack's speech about his Staff of Obscure Spells suggests that he has the Craft Staff feat. It looks like he researched the so-called obscure spells and made the magic item with them. I can't believe that another person made it because Malack wouldn't share his spells with anyone. I mean, he couldn't even help a friend to research a spell without sneaking in backdoors, let alone teach his spells to someone...

[SavageWombat]

Honestly, I think what we're seeing is that, like most people you've ever played with, there's more to a character's abilities than just their physical scores. V may have an 18+ INT on his character sheet, but he hasn't exactly used his mind to solve problems. Roy has. That's why he seems smarter.

[SowZ]

Honestly, I think what we're seeing is that, like most people you've ever played with, there's more to a character's abilities than just their physical scores. V may have an 18+ INT on his character sheet, but he hasn't exactly used his mind to solve problems. Roy has. That's why he seems smarter.

I think Roy is actually smarter, though.

[Mike Havran]

I think that Malack's speech about his Staff of Obscure Spells suggests that he has the Craft Staff feat. It looks like he researched the so-called obscure spells and made the magic item with them. I can't believe that another person made it because Malack wouldn't share his spells with anyone. I mean, he couldn't even help a friend to research a spell without sneaking in backdoors, let alone teach his spells to someone...

I think that's very possible.

It would also require Malack to have at least 12 Cleric levels for a long time, since he already had the staff when Tarquin came up with his Grand Scheme.

[SowZ]

I think that's very possible.

It would also require Malack to have at least 12 Cleric levels for a long time, since he already had the staff when Tarquin came up with his Grand Scheme.

Trying to come up with a Grand Scheme where an adventuring party controls an entire continent, including military coups and many small wars, before level 12 or so would strike me as very foolish in the OOTS setting, which has a fairly varied level distribution.

[Mike Havran]

Trying to come up with a Grand Scheme where an adventuring party controls an entire continent, including military coups and many small wars, before level 12 or so would strike me as very foolish in the OOTS setting, which has a fairly varied level distribution.

Why? In addition to his Cleric levels, he has 11 or more ECL so he can't exactly advance very rapidly. And also, he's working with his friends, and behind the scenes, so it's not so risky.

[SowZ]

Why? In addition to his Cleric levels, he has 11 or more ECL so he can't exactly advance very rapidly. And also, he's working with his friends, and behind the scenes, so it's not so risky.

Presumably, the party is at roughly the same level. I doubt a group of adventurers has characters within much more than a few levels of each other. They still had to take over the continent and then stage coups and rebellions, not to mention defend themselves from legitimate revolutions/adventurers. OOTS has quite a few high level people in it. I wouldn't attempt such a plan until high levels, personally.

Also, assuming the party was a reasonable level, (12+,) back when the plan started is not much of a stretch considering at least one person in the group is now Epic level. How much XP does he really gain pulling the strings behind the curtain? I would say most of his XP was gained beforehand.

[Living Oxymoron]

Presumably, the party is at roughly the same level. I doubt a group of adventurers has characters within much more than a few levels of each other. They still had to take over the continent and then stage coups and rebellions, not to mention defend themselves from legitimate revolutions/adventurers. OOTS has quite a few high level people in it. I wouldn't attempt such a plan until high levels, personally.

Also, assuming the party was a reasonable level, (12+,) back when the plan started is not much of a stretch considering at least one person in the group is now Epic level. How much XP does he really gain pulling the strings behind the curtain? I would say most of his XP was gained beforehand.

"When he first appeared on the continent, he conquered eleven nations in eight months. It took a coalition of no-less than twenty six other countries to defeat him and drive him out."

This is before the great plan, and to me it's the kind of thing that a high level character does, so they certainly are beyond that (what means epic) today.

As for the balance of the party, they may have started at the same level, but Malack advanced slowly compared to his partners. Yet, following this point of view, it's extremely unlikely that he got stuck in 12th level since the making of the plan. The picture in comic 758 shows us a Malack that is already a daywalker (thanks to the Protection from Daylight spell) and wields a staff that may be a mundane or magical quarterstaff, not necessarily that Staff of Obscure Spells, because it looks like that Malack delved in deep research and stopped adventuring only after the plan was established and being executed.

[white lancer]

Honestly, I think what we're seeing is that, like most people you've ever played with, there's more to a character's abilities than just their physical scores. V may have an 18+ INT on his character sheet, but he hasn't exactly used his mind to solve problems. Roy has. That's why he seems smarter.

I have to disagree that V doesn't use his/her mind to solve problems--that's been a hallmark of V's character. Remember how he/she dealt with ZZ'drti (both times)? Or the solution to the breach in the wall at Azure City? Or his/her attempts at locating Haley in DStP (the entire POINT of this arc was to show that V was over-reliant on his/her own mental and arcane abilities)? The only reason it seems like Roy uses his mind to solve problems more is because he's the leader and makes more decisions (and, granted, probably does demonstrate more well-rounded decision-making, indicating high Wis and Cha as well as Int).

[Coat]

Malack has been a vampire for around 200 years, hence was already a vampire and had been for over a century when he met Tarquin. In 758, Tarquin says he 'gathered them [his party] together after his defeat' - it's not absolutely clear, but I think it's strongly implied that this is the team he adventured with before he began his career of conquest, presumably from reasonably low levels.

So the question is, what (cleric) level was Malack when he joined up with Tarquin's party? If he was already lvl 9 cleric or more + vampire, and they were lowish level, the ECL difference would be huge. Why do it?

If he was low level, and they were mid-level - so ECLs were comparable - why take him on? Wouldn't a lvl 1 cleric lizard vampire just be a liability to a party of lvl 11 humans?

That said, for a party with an imaginative leader and few scruples, a vampire could be very valuable. They're tough against most normal attacks - and, as Malack has shown, can be lethal in combat even without any clerical powers, especially from surprise, which vampires are well placed to get. They make great scouts. They can dominate. They can create spawn as handy tough loyal slaves. There's no reason why Malack has to be Team T's primary clerical caster.

Much of this is of limited use in a dungeon full of monsters. But if the quest is how much loot can I extract from this well-defended city, well...

Malack must have had at least a few cleric levels when he joined up with Tarquin, because he made it clear that researching protection from daylight was the first thing he did. But it is possible he gained most of the rest of them with Team T.

(EDIT: must have been at least lvl 3 +2 lizardfolk HD, or would have risen as vampire spawn, not full vampire, when he was turned. So minimum ECL 13 when he was turned to a vampire).

On the other hand, OotS characters don't always make the most optimised choices. There's no reason an ECL 20+ Malack couldn't have joined a lvl3 Tarquin as he started on his adventures, pretty much just for the fun of it.

So I haven't deduced anything about anything. But I thought I'd share what I haven't worked out. Personally, I'd bet that Malack was turned when he was around cleric lvl 12, and after 100 years or so as a vampire, recruited a lvl 10 to 13 Tarquin to help him break free of his Vampire master and become a full Vampire Lord, and has supported Tarquin ever since - but I have no evidence for the theory.

[Peelee]

I understand that. I'm setting up a formal "yes or no" structure - if we can demonstrate whether (a) is true or not, we answer the question. So far, I see two sources - a general note in the SRD that does nothing to describe a sextant's game effect, and a previously discussed rule from Stormwrack.

(By contrast, the Pathfinder description for the item is more explicit, but doesn't apply in this case.)

What we need is to either find another example of a rules-use for the sextant, or reach a consensus that no other rules-uses exist.

I have not been able to find a sextant in the core books, and do not own every single sourcebook. That said, Stormwrack is the only book I have found it in thus far, and nobody else has chimed in with any stats or sources on the sextant other than that given in Stormwrack. Given that it's been several days now, should the official ruling be that the sole purpose of a sextant is to provide a +4 bonus to Knowlegde (Geography)?

[FlawedParadigm]

I dunno, even a level one Cleric with an unlimited Domination Gaze, unlimited energy drains, a daily summon, and fast healing, much less the ability to turn into mist (and fly) any time he might be a liability seems pretty well off (not to mention whatever hit dice he had from before having the Vampire template applied, and the fact that whatever he was now has a d12 hit die.) Unless for some reason someone else in the group was intimately familiar with the Cleric spell list, there's no reason he couldn't pass off the gaze and summons as spells even if he's trying to keep his condition low profile. Even the mist form could be explained as a custom researched spell or something.

No, I really don't think that a daylight-protected vampire with some kind of prior life (he mentions having been a Shaman - even if he doesn't specifically mean the Shaman class, it means he was some kind of spellcaster) really risks being a liability in any group without much more extremely diverse levels.