Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[SowZ]

I have not been able to find a sextant in the core books, and do not own every single sourcebook. That said, Stormwrack is the only book I have found it in thus far, and nobody else has chimed in with any stats or sources on the sextant other than that given in Stormwrack. Given that it's been several days now, should the official ruling be that the sole purpose of a sextant is to provide a +4 bonus to Knowlegde (Geography)?

I concur with this. If no other book mentions a sextant, then that is what we should go with. Just like if someone used a weapon called a Yuo-Turan Blade or some nonsense, and only one obscure book had stats for such a blade, we would go by those stats.

This would prove a single rank in Geography for Roy, too.

[Peelee]

I concur with this. If no other book mentions a sextant, then that is what we should go with. Just like if someone used a weapon called a Yuo-Turan Blade or some nonsense, and only one obscure book had stats for such a blade, we would go by those stats.

This would prove a single rank in Geography for Roy, too.

Sorry, yeah, that's what I was getting at. Only purpose for figuring out exactly what the sextant does (well, for the purposes of this thread) is how it affects Roy, in that it would give him Know Geo.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, that's a good RAW argument, so I've added K:Geo to Roy. Also, added goatherding to Roy, and the alias to Haley.

I agree that Malack should have Craft Staff; he says he made his staff himself, and that's what the feat is for.

Honestly, I think what we're seeing is that, like most people you've ever played with, there's more to a character's abilities than just their physical scores. V may have an 18+ INT on his character sheet, but he hasn't exactly used his mind to solve problems. Roy has. That's why he seems smarter.

Well, yes. This should fall under the same disclaimer as alignment. People have widely different ideas over what the mental ability scores represent. If character X doing something nice, we cannot infer that he is therefore good-aligned; so likewise, if character Y does something smart, we cannot infer that he therefore has a high intelligence or wisdom score.
This is why we base e.g. Z'zdtri's intelligence on the fact that he casts 7th-level spells, not on the notion that he made a cunning plan once.

Presumably, the party is at roughly the same level. I doubt a group of adventurers has characters within much more than a few levels of each other.

I disagree. For instance, we know that Xykon is several (five or more) levels higher than Redcloak, and they have also formed a party together at times.

[DaveMcW]

I disagree. For instance, we know that Xykon is several (five or more) levels higher than Redcloak, and they have also formed a party together at times.

Does that make Redcloak a party member or a minion?

[Kurald Galain]

Does that make Redcloak a party member or a minion?

Arguably, the party leader. Even if one member doesn't know it yet.

[SavageWombat]

I rather suspect that the Giant did not take official ECL rules into account when deciding what level various characters were. Both Sabine and Malack appear to have a higher ECL than their respective parties, but not in terms of perceived effectiveness. Malack is probably a lower level cleric than Rich would have made him were he not a vampire, but not so low that he couldn't do his job as party cleric for a high level group.

[Mike Havran]

I think Sabine is actually pretty weak even in ECL territory. She didn't show anything beyond 6 racial hit dice, 6 level adjustment and about 2 levels of rogue.

On the other hand, Malack has really high ECL, depending on what his base creature is.

[mawexzon]

I am in favor of Malack having Craft Staff, Also, since it seems a sextant only appears in Stormwrack, Shouldn't it be listed as source?

[RMS Oceanic]

Added Create Staff to Malack and bumped his cleric level to 12.

[FlawedParadigm]

Added Create Staff to Malack and bumped his cleric level to 12.

Out of curiosity, what evidence do we have that he's a Lizardfolk (aside from Haley's guess) and not a Yuan-ti Abomination?

"Abominations are almost completely snakelike, with only a few human features, such as arms or a humanoid head. They are the most venerated within the yuan-ti society, serving as clerics and in other roles of power."

As it happens, arms are exactly what he has and a Cleric is exactly what he is. Above is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan-ti

[Douglas]

Yuan-ti Abominations have so many racial hit dice and so much level adjustment that combining it with Vampire and the proven levels in cleric would result in an ECL ridiculously high. He'd be above even Xykon, which is frankly absurd. Overcoming that would require some quite explicit and direct evidence, which we don't have.

[Mike Havran]

Out of curiosity, what evidence do we have that he's a Lizardfolk (aside from Haley's guess) and not a Yuan-ti Abomination?

Also Malack considers himself lizardfolk here.

[FlawedParadigm]

Yuan-ti Abominations have so many racial hit dice and so much level adjustment that combining it with Vampire and the proven levels in cleric would result in an ECL ridiculously high. He'd be above even Xykon, which is frankly absurd. Overcoming that would require some quite explicit and direct evidence, which we don't have.

Well, sure, but I'd find a homebrew lower ECL Yuan-Ti Abomination more likely than legless Lizardfolk. Rich has messed with the sizes of a few things, like Sylphs and Goblins, but I haven't seen major changes to basic anatomy. There may be something more fitting than either option, but YTA was the first thing I figured as soon as the lack of legs was proven.

Also Malack considers himself lizardfolk here.

Yes, but we're already aware of multiple misdirecting statements in that conversation, particularly regarding Malack's nature. I'm not sure anything he says about himself in that conversation aside from being a Cleric is admissible as evidence of anything right now.

[mawexzon]

Yeah, I think his race should be removed until we have further information of what exactly he is.

[hamishspence]

Well, sure, but I'd find a homebrew lower ECL Yuan-Ti Abomination more likely than legless Lizardfolk.

That's why I figured Halfblood- Medium size, uses Medium weapons. Abominations are Large and must use Large weapons. Malack does not seem that big.

Legless halfbloods exist.

[FlawedParadigm]

That's why I figured Halfblood- Medium size, uses Medium weapons. Abominations are Large and must use Large weapons. Malack does not seem that big.

Legless halfbloods exist.

Ah, you are likely correct. I'd forgotten about legless half-bloods. I've not seen legless Lizardfolk, though. I'm almost certain that bit is incorrect.

[Flame of Anor]

Ah, you are likely correct. I'd forgotten about legless half-bloods. I've not seen legless Lizardfolk, though. I'm almost certain that bit is incorrect.

Could he be a half-blood yuan-ti, with the other half being lizardfolk?

[SavageWombat]

Unless I misremember, being any kind of Yuan-Ti would provide Malack with Spell Resistance, no? Something blatantly not-in-evidence in his fight with Durkon.

I know, Rumsfeld rule, but still...

[FlawedParadigm]

Could he be a half-blood yuan-ti, with the other half being lizardfolk?

Might be. Might be a lot of things. But whatever those things are, they don't have legs. Or at least the end result doesn't. He's some kind of reptile is the best I think we solidly know.

Unless I misremember, being any kind of Yuan-Ti would provide Malack with Spell Resistance, no? Something blatantly not-in-evidence in his fight with Durkon.

SR 16 for half-blood, if Hamish is correct as I think he is. Durkon couldn't fail his roll on a 1 without some kind of modifier.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yeah, I think his race should be removed until we have further information of what exactly he is.

I agree with this.

[theMycon]

I know, Rumsfeld rule, but still...

I have nothing to add, but that line was brilliant. I have never heard it mentioned before, and I knew exactly, word for word, what it meant.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I have nothing to add, but that line was brilliant. I have never heard it mentioned before, and I knew exactly, word for word, what it meant.

That is "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?

Carl Sagan said that first, about the possibility of life on Mars. However, that's wrong I think, absence of evidence is evidence of absence if you don't find any after looking where you'd expect to find it. Given if P then Q, not-Q implies not-P.

I am a huge fan of Dr. Sagan but it was unscientific how much he wanted there to be (macroscopic) life on Mars. We're all human :(

[Living Oxymoron]

Added Create Staff to Malack and bumped his cleric level to 12.

The correct name is Craft Staff.

Out of curiosity, what evidence do we have that he's a Lizardfolk (aside from Haley's guess) and not a Yuan-ti Abomination?

"Abominations are almost completely snakelike, with only a few human features, such as arms or a humanoid head. They are the most venerated within the yuan-ti society, serving as clerics and in other roles of power."

As it happens, arms are exactly what he has and a Cleric is exactly what he is. Above is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan-ti

I think it's too early to discuss that because there isn't much palpable evidence to prove that he is a Yuan-ti. We are relying more on the fact he is snakelike, doesn't have legs, and on some fluff things (I agree that many things of his storyline match with the description of Yuan-Tis). The combat with Durkon, for example, doesn't tell us anything about he being or not a Yuan-Ti. This is much like before, when many people here in the forum already suspected about his condition as a vampire, with many evidences to support their argument, but still we had to wait until Malack revealed himself as one to modify his stats.

[FlawedParadigm]

The correct name is Craft Staff.


I think it's too early to discuss that because there isn't much palpable evidence to prove that he is a Yuan-ti. We are relying more on the fact he is snakelike, doesn't have legs, and on some fluff things (I agree that many things of his storyline match with the description of Yuan-Tis). The combat with Durkon, for example, doesn't tell us anything about he being or not a Yuan-Ti. This is much like before, when many people here in the forum already suspected about his condition as a vampire, with many evidences to support their argument, but still we had to wait until Malack revealed himself as one to modify his stats.

Oh yes, of course, I understand the vampire bit completely. I suspected it ever since he made excuses about not eating at the feast and having a "special diet." The combat with Durkon is what makes me think he's a Yuan-ti because prior to that, we only had hints, but no evidence, that he didn't have legs. Not having legs knocks him squarely out of contention for Lizardfolk, which is something Haley assumed (and she is in no way an expert that we have any proof of) and everyone else in the Order has run with. Unless he is half-blood Yuan-ti and half-blood Lizardfolk, then almost anything *except* Lizardfolk has a better chance of being true at this point. I'm not asking that he be listed as a Yuan-ti yet, I ask that he *not* be listed as a Lizardfolk, because we now have proof this is simply not the case. Lizardfolk are bipedal. Malack is not.

[rodneyAnonymous]

He might have a long tail and small hind legs. Note the strange folds in his robe (though that might just be more coils of his tail). He definitely doesn't walk on his hind legs, but whether he has any hind legs? Probably not, but not certainly not.

[dps]

Okay, that's a good RAW argument, so I've added K:Geo to Roy. Also, added goatherding to Roy, and the alias to Haley.

Speaking of which, shouldn't Belkar have the following aliases: The Belkster, Death's Lil' Helper, and A Sexy Shoeless God of War?

[Living Oxymoron]

Oh yes, of course, I understand the vampire bit completely. I suspected it ever since he made excuses about not eating at the feast and having a "special diet." The combat with Durkon is what makes me think he's a Yuan-ti because prior to that, we only had hints, but no evidence, that he didn't have legs. Not having legs knocks him squarely out of contention for Lizardfolk, which is something Haley assumed (and she is in no way an expert that we have any proof of) and everyone else in the Order has run with. Unless he is half-blood Yuan-ti and half-blood Lizardfolk, then almost anything *except* Lizardfolk has a better chance of being true at this point. I'm not asking that he be listed as a Yuan-ti yet, I ask that he *not* be listed as a Lizardfolk, because we now have proof this is simply not the case. Lizardfolk are bipedal. Malack is not.

How do you see the fact that (as 2323mike already said before) Malack considers himself as a lizardfolk?

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see your reply to his comment. No need to reply mine, I understood your point.

[Mike Havran]

I also recall one debate about Malack's creature type where it was mentioned that Yuan-Ti is a copyright material and the Giant could have problems if he included it in the comic.

So if Malack is a cross of something, my bet would be lizardfolk/dragon. Perhaps a quarter of white dragon?

[hamishspence]

Aren't Displacer beasts copyright? They're not in the SRD, at least. Yet they're used (albeit only once).

[RMS Oceanic]

Yes, but we're already aware of multiple misdirecting statements in that conversation, particularly regarding Malack's nature. I'm not sure anything he says about himself in that conversation aside from being a Cleric is admissible as evidence of anything right now.

This sort of feels like chucking out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, we now know he was concealing his vampirism, but what motive would he have to deceive people about what base race he considers himself? I don't think this is like Qarr misleading Z about being his familiar, the conversation was avoiding the truth rather than outright deception. And as others have mentioned Yuan-Ti are copyrighted by Wizards, so I personally feel we need a strong burden of proof before labelling Malack as one, either seeing him without his robes or a new statement from him.

The correct name is Craft Staff.

Derp. Fixed.