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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shreav View Post
    Via 863, Tarquin has a whip and an extra-strength version of Keoghtum Ointment that, by the word of Giant, also cures deafness.
    You can also read everything it can heal on the "Uses" section of the ointment in that comic, including deafness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    On xykon in this one, cylinder says he has an item to make him immune to fire damage, and I looked it up, the only way for him to have fire immunity is with an epic ring, so
    1.) he must have the forge ring and epic forge ring feats, and
    2.) the requirements for epic forge ring are 35 ranks in both knowledge arcane, and spellcraft, therefore he must be at least 32nd level, and have those ranks in the skills.

    So he has the 2 forge ring feats, a ring of fire immunity, at least 35 ranks in knowledge arcane and Spellcraft, and at least 32 levels in sorcerer

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by zetsu1919 View Post
    On xykon in this one, cylinder says he has an item to make him immune to fire damage, and I looked it up, the only way for him to have fire immunity is with an epic ring, so
    1.) he must have the forge ring and epic forge ring feats, and
    2.) the requirements for epic forge ring are 35 ranks in both knowledge arcane, and spellcraft, therefore he must be at least 32nd level, and have those ranks in the skills.

    So he has the 2 forge ring feats, a ring of fire immunity, at least 35 ranks in knowledge arcane and Spellcraft, and at least 32 levels in sorcerer
    Please refer to the thread FAQ regarding debates about Xykon's level and capabilities, and why we don't have them.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Please refer to the thread FAQ regarding debates about Xykon's level and capabilities, and why we don't have them.
    it may just be me, but i dont see anything saying why he wouldnt have what i say

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    There is a non-epic ring that grants fire immunity, but it's non-core. There may be other non-core items that immunize you to fire as well, but none come to mind at the moment. The reason neither is listed is because of an old debate over which guideline we want to follow more closely: giving core and SRD stuff priority, or keeping the levels as low as possible.
    Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2012-09-12 at 07:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    oh, ok, thank you, the FAQ didnt say anything about that, sorry

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    On a topic slightly less likely to start a flamewar, this latest comic shows us Tarquin not treating Zz'dtri for blindness, instead applying ointment only to his ears. Can we conclude from this that Zz'dtri was not blinded by Holy Word?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    On a topic slightly less likely to start a flamewar, this latest comic shows us Tarquin not treating Zz'dtri for blindness, instead applying ointment only to his ears. Can we conclude from this that Zz'dtri was not blinded by Holy Word?
    Well, Tarquin does use Drow sign language to tell Zz'dtri to teleport in the previous strip.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    It's also possible that the blindness wore off before the deafness. Not particularly likely, but possible.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Dropped Tarquin's Axe (like he did ) and added his whip and ointment ().

    Quote Originally Posted by zetsu1919 View Post
    On xykon in this one, cylinder says he has an item to make him immune to fire damage, and I looked it up, the only way for him to have fire immunity is with an epic ring, so
    1.) he must have the forge ring and epic forge ring feats, and
    2.) the requirements for epic forge ring are 35 ranks in both knowledge arcane, and spellcraft, therefore he must be at least 32nd level, and have those ranks in the skills.

    So he has the 2 forge ring feats, a ring of fire immunity, at least 35 ranks in knowledge arcane and Spellcraft, and at least 32 levels in sorcerer
    This assumes he created the magic ring as seen in the rule books. There are rules to customise your own magic items - it's why DMs have to ban rings of true/wraithstrike - so maybe he made an amulet of fire immunity, which would require a lower level.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilphon View Post
    It's also possible that the blindness wore off before the deafness. Not particularly likely, but possible.
    According to the spell description for holy word, the minimum time blindness would last is two rounds. After Durkon's holy word affects Zz'dtri (which means Durkon overcame his spell resistance), Z then attempts to cast gust of wind and shield, taking a standard action each. However, shield is cast in a round where arrows are being fired at him. This seems important to me, as prior to that Haley had fired arrows at Nale (which may have been totally concealed from Z's view) and at Tarquin. This suggests Zz'dtri was able to detect the archer changed targets.

    Depth of field isn't all that easy to tell in that comic. We can tell that Z has moved closer to "camera" and away from Durkon since trying to cast gust of wind, and the arrow which flies near his head is closer to camera than that, but it is unknown how close it is to him (but it doesn't appear to have hit). If Zz'dtri were deaf and blind in this, the second round after holy word, the only ways he could detect it would be through something like a scent-based blindsight (arrows would smell?) or if he could feel the arrow. I can't say I have ever had an arrow shot past me to experience whether there is a breeze, but as an aerodynamic projectile, it shouldn't move much air out of its way by definition. This leads me to believe Zz'dtri was able to see the arrows shot at him and he has a quantity of hit dice equal to Durkon's caster level for holy word.

    It seems teleport still needs to be added to Zz'dtri's spell list.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    According to the spell description for holy word, the minimum time blindness would last is two rounds. After Durkon's holy word affects Zz'dtri (which means Durkon overcame his spell resistance), Z then attempts to cast gust of wind and shield, taking a standard action each. However, shield is cast in a round where arrows are being fired at him.
    I'm pretty sure the reason Zz'dtri cast Shield (with a questionmark on the end), was because he caught the word "shield" from Tarquin.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'm pretty sure the reason Zz'dtri cast Shield (with a questionmark on the end), was because he caught the word "shield" from Tarquin.
    Hmm... I had interpreted the question mark as Zz'dtri coming to the realization he could not hear anything. The proximity of those two speech balloons seems an odd coincidence. The relief which Z experiences after the ointment is applied to his ear (one application affecting both ears seems to fall under "it's magic") looks too genuine to support Z's hearing having returned prior to that scene. As I see it, the only one who seems to partially hear anything is Belkar; I chalk that up to Belkar needing funny dialog.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    As I see it, the only one who seems to partially hear anything is Belkar; I chalk that up to Belkar needing funny dialog.
    Or possibly rolling better on the duration of his deafness (the spell is a bit unclear as to whether it's one roll shared by everyone affected, or if each target rolls duration separately - though I would guess the former interpretation is the intended one).

    Rich did mention afterward that he forgot it likely would've worn off by their escape, btw.

    And yeah, I figured the reason Z had a question mark on his casting of shield was because he didn't know if the deafness would make it fizzle. That + his expression in that panel makes me think he was aware arrows were being fired at him and was trying to avoid them, not attempting to follow T's orders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I had read that, but then forgotten about it. Let's see... 1.) Tarquin fights with Durkon as gust of wind is attempted. 2.)Tarquin stuns Durkon while shield is cast. 3.)Tarquin throws his axe (there's a movement, but I don't know which round it belongs in) 4.)Tarquin picks up Nale an runs back for the teleport. I guess it would have expired then, yeah. Thanks.

    ETA: Looking through 861 again, it struck me how easily Roy destroyed those mummies. Has there been much discussion yet over how much damage Roy's greatsword would need to do to them?
    Last edited by KillingAScarab; 2012-09-15 at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Is there consensus on what kind of undead they actually were? They're "mummies" because they were mummified by the desert winds, not because they were reanimated per the "mummy" entry in the Monster Manual,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    Is there consensus on what kind of undead they actually were? They're "mummies" because they were mummified by the desert winds, not because they were reanimated per the "mummy" entry in the Monster Manual,
    From the man himself:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    They are mummies like the monster.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Okay, so they've got an average of 55 HP. And while they're defenseless, you can't coup de grace multiple enemies at once, so it wasn't that. Of course, they were nigh-impossible to miss, so there's an unknown but probably very large Power Attack factor.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Roy has Great Cleave. He only needs to do enough damage to kill one mummy in one hit, with his +5 greatsword that glows with a green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead, and he can keep swinging until he fails to do so.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Exactly. We now have Roy using the green energy effect to one-shot enemies he couldn't reliably Great Cleave through with an otherwise standard +5 sword. That might help us work out the numeric properties of the fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Roy has Great Cleave. He only needs to do enough damage to kill one mummy in one hit, with his +5 greatsword that glows with a green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead, and he can keep swinging until he fails to do so.
    Well, we only see one continuous trail from one swing. Presumably, no attack rolls were failed and every damage roll was enough to destroy one mummy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    Okay, so they've got an average of 55 HP. And while they're defenseless, you can't coup de grace multiple enemies at once, so it wasn't that. Of course, they were nigh-impossible to miss, so there's an unknown but probably very large Power Attack factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    Exactly. We now have Roy using the green energy effect to one-shot enemies he couldn't reliably Great Cleave through with an otherwise standard +5 sword. That might help us work out the numeric properties of the fire.
    I've done some number-crunching.

    Assuming 55 hp is the target, Roy wields a +5 greatsword two-handed with what we currently believe is a strength score of 24 (strength modifier is +7) at the minimum. Power attack means he is capable of subtracting up to his entire base attack bonus on the roll to hit and adding twice as much on the damage (two-handed weapon). If Roy really is level 13, he can add up to 26 to the damage with power attack alone. Strength modifier to damage for using a two-handed weapon is 7*1.5=10, so that's 36 already. The +5 enhancement puts it at 41. Two more points for weapon specialization means 43. Greatsword damage is 2d6, so 2 to 12 damage. 45-55 damage, means he is capable (if not likely) of reaching 55 damage with any +5 greatsword.

    Except, mummies have Damage Reduction 5/-. If the starmetal in his greatsword doesn't bypass it, Roy's output is down to 40-50. They also have a vulnerability to fire, but I don't think that enters into play, here.

    So would Roy hit on such a power attack? Standard mummies have a dexterity score of 10 (modifier 0) and +10 natural armor, so AC 20. But, these mummies were said to be controlled by Malack, who seems to currently have no control over them. They could have the helpless condition, in which case...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, p.35
    It is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier) and takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
    (but here's the SRD version)

    I'm a little unclear as to whether the dexterity 0 is factored into AC or just for everything else which is based on the dexterity modifier. So I'll start with just being hit more often by melee attacks. With a strength modifier to hit of +7, a +5 sword and weapon focus bonus of +1, Roy can hit 16 if the d20 comes up as a 3 or higher. Since rolling a one is always a failure, there's only one other number on the die he could eliminate as a failure to hit by not using a full power attack. If AC plumets by another 5 points for dexterity 0, Roy has no reason not to use a full power attack.

    There's something I'm not familiar with, however. Since I never really DM'd any 3.x games, I wonder if the mummies would just have 55 hp. Aside from the variation that 8d12+3 provides (11 hp through 99 hp), at least one of the people who was listed on the schedule for illusions in the canyon was capable of casting screen. That's sor/wiz 8, trickery 7. Would the mummy created from a caster with 13-16 hit dice be reduced to 8? Would they retain spellcasting abilities? I mean, how does a mummy lord have levels as a cleric? We can try to work out what sort of bonus would give Roy better odds to make the damage 55 more reliably, but I'm a bit concerned about whether the source corpses affect the mummies produced.
    Last edited by KillingAScarab; 2012-09-16 at 01:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    I think we can asume Roy have Grater Weapon Specialization at level 12, and, to your 40-50 points of damage he adds the green energy whatever it does. If it was a Bane weapon (for example) this 7 points of damage will make the diference.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sr.medusa View Post
    I think we can asume Roy have Grater Weapon Specialization at level 12, and, to your 40-50 points of damage he adds the green energy whatever it does. If it was a Bane weapon (for example) this 7 points of damage will make the diference.
    On that same line of thought, could the starmetal anti-undead characteristic include something similar to "overcomes any damage reduction the undead might have"?

    To clarify: I know that, if Rich wanted to, it could have that exact property, but does such property exist in general D&D 3.5? E.g. "Dragon Slaying spear +3, negates dragons' damage reduction"

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    There are two reasons Tarquin could have packed a whip:

    A) He has taken a feat to use it.

    B) It fit into such a small bag.

    I'm going with B.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBanana View Post
    There are two reasons Tarquin could have packed a whip:

    A) He has taken a feat to use it.

    B) It fit into such a small bag.

    I'm going with B.
    You need a reason that also explains why "whip," not "dagger."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBanana View Post
    B) It fit into such a small bag.
    It could be a Bag of Holding, too. He could fit any number of guisarmes in there...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    It could be a Bag of Holding, too. He could fit any number of guisarmes in there...
    Though guisarmes and daggers have sharp edges that could puncture the bag of holding/regular ol' sack, which would mean a whip makes sense. And I'd be mildly surprised if he packs a bag with that ointment instead of potions if it's a bag of holding that has plenty of room for the cheaper potions instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Nale's longsword isn't on his back anymore so he probably didn't pick it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I don't see a reason to treat it as anything other than high ranks in Bragging--which we know very well Vaarsuvius has. His/her knowledge and power of everything is unmatched, just ask him/her.
    First, that doesn't fit with this thread. The rule of the thread is to believe what characters say about themselves, unless it is clearly a joke. V was clearly not joking, and indeed went on to demonstrate his/her knowledge of undead with some good, if vague, advice.

    Further, it doesn't make sense for the character. V might well exaggerate his/her own knowledge (and so I wouldn't support putting a number on his/her ranks); however, s/he would never just lie outright to Roy--whom s/he respects--without a very good reason. There was no good reason for V to lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    And yet V fails to recognize a ghast later in the same dungeon (she did recognize that they were ghouls - ghasts are a stronger form of ghoul - so props for that).
    So V made a bad roll. As you say, though, s/he did recognize them to a degree. Since knowledge checks cannot be made untrained, this also confirms that V has ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    She probably has some ranks in Knowledge (religion), to explain being able to recognize ghouls and at least one of their abilities, but probably not very many.
    Exactly. I'm not agitating for V to be put down with a zillion ranks in Knowledge: Religion; I just want it listed on V's stats.
    Last edited by Flame of Anor; 2012-09-20 at 01:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    First, that doesn't fit with this thread. The rule of the thread is to believe what characters say about themselves, unless it is clearly a joke.


    Why is Miko listed as an ex-paladin then?

    She asserted, very loudly and very clearly, that she had never Fallen. She was certainly not joking.

    But very well. Suppose that this thread has a rule to believe what characters say about themselves unless it is clearly a joke. Then, in addition to taking the "Ex-" off Miko's class, we'd better give Vaarsuvius a Knowledge (Religion) rank of...50? 60? Higher? Because s/he said his/her knowledge was unmatched. If we cannot observe that this is Vaarsuvius bragging as per his/her usual, then we certainly cannot attempt to parse the word "unmatched" down to "decent for a wizard who justifies not knowing the casting time for Resurrection because 'divine magic isn't real magic.'"
    So V made a bad roll. As you say, though, s/he did recognize them to a degree. Since knowledge checks cannot be made untrained, this also confirms that V has ranks in Knowledge: Religion.
    Is, "Every character who has ever identified an undead creature by sight has ranks in Knowledge (Religion)" really a position you wish to put your weight behind?
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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