Batman vs. The World

[Raimun]

Who would win?

No, seriously, there has been a lot of "Batman vs..." threads and most seem to agree that Batman would be the winner.

I agree with that.

Who do you think could defeat Batman? State your reasons.

[Water_Bear]

Well, internet fanboyism aside, Superman has a really good track record of beating Batman. Even in Dark Knight Returns Batman only really stalemates him, and I've never read or heard of anything where Batman actually beats him.

That's pretty much Batman's weakness; he can only win when there is a possibility of victory. Even if it's million-to-one odds Batman will come out on top, but faced with someone who is genuinely invincible he can't really do much more than lose in a really badass way.

So I would say plausible people to beat Batman;
-Hulk (when the writers get carried away like in World War Hulk)
-Superman
-Dr Manhattan

[kpenguin]

Anyone if its a good story.

No, seriously. This is what it boils down to. If its a good story, or at least if the writer thinks it'd make for a good story, then it happens. If not, then it doesn't happen. Fictional characters exist to provide that narrative and victory in combat depends on what the writer believes would be best.

[Raimun]

Anyone if its a good story.

No, seriously. This is what it boils down to. If its a good story, or at least if the writer thinks it'd make for a good story, then it happens. If not, then it doesn't happen. Fictional characters exist to provide that narrative and victory in combat depends on what the writer believes would be best.

Dammit, kpenguin. You reached the obvious meta-answer way too soon.

[DiscipleofBob]

- Anyone without an easily discernable weakness provided that Batman doesn't have weeks to find and engineer a specific weakness for them.

- Anyone who can reach Batman levels of planning on their own.

Dr. Doom and Dr. Who for example.

[Dienekes]

Well, internet fanboyism aside, Superman has a really good track record of beating Batman. Even in Dark Knight Returns Batman only really stalemates him, and I've never read or heard of anything where Batman actually beats him.

Huh? TDKR has Batman really winning against Supes.

Spoiler

Show

Batman is beating the crap out of Supes, and then randomly suffers a heart attack. Which was itself part of his plan so he could keep going without anyone overlooking him and shocks Superman into being good again. I really can't think of any way it wasn't a Batman win except he didn't actually kill Superman. He got everything he wanted out of the fight.

And that's not even counting the times he's taken on "possessed" superman or superman powered enemies and just whips out some kryptonite and disables him, which has happened a bit.

That said. There are a lot of people Batman would lose to in a straight up fight. However, Bats is very very good at making sure it doesn't come down to a straight up fight. Supes is one of them, Darkseid another.

Mister Mxyzptlk would win, or even worse, the Joker with Mister Mxyptlk's powers, various deities in numerous pantheons. Hell even toning down the power levels a bit, Lady Shiva, Bane on Venon, and Cassandra Cain were all considered his match in a fight. Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain was more of an informed ability but we can take it.

But Bats' ability is that if he knows he's facing Lady Shiva, Bane, or in all probability Cassandra Cain he'll cheat and come up with some information or plan or whatever that'll nullify whatever advantage they have. That's why I don't believe Lady Shiva has ever actually beaten Bats in a fight, Bane only did it once and then lost and has since floundered, and well CC (was) a good guy who's sole accomplishment is that she got Bruce a little bloodied in a training session that he didn't even notice.

Which is unfortunately what brings us to the main problem with these Batman verses random folks. Without understanding of the situation we can't really say how well Batman would do.

[Misery Esquire]

God-Emperor of Mankind (40K)
Chaos Gods (40K)
Old Ones (40K)
Gods (D&D 3.5/Mythology/etc)
Heroes With or Without CHIM (TES)
Daedric Princes (TES)
Magicka Wizard (Magicka)
Rand Al'Thor (Wheel of Time)
Most other Channelers (Wheel of Time)
Xykon and/or Redcloak (OotS)
Any variety of Level 20 spellcaster (D&D 3.5)
The main character of Advent Rising, after the endgame.
Breathe (From Dust)
Intelligent Harry Potter Wizards (No Examples Available)

That's the list of people that I'm confident could eraser Batman without a real fight. There's probably a longer list of people who would fight and win against him.

[Mewtarthio]

I'd like to see Batman go up against Silent Hill. Not the silly cult, mind you: Just have him take a stroll through the town itself. Maybe Joker is hiding there or something. That guy's got a lot of internal angst for the town to exploit. Yeah, he'd probably get out the other side (he is the very definition of heroic willpower), but it would be really interesting to watch.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd like to see Batman go up against Silent Hill. Not the silly cult, mind you: Just have him take a stroll through the town itself. Maybe Joker is hiding there or something. That guy's got a lot of internal angst for the town to exploit. Yeah, he'd probably get out the other side (he is the very definition of heroic willpower), but it would be really interesting to watch.

Oh man, yes. That would definately be worth the watch. Silent Hill drawing on both the Joker's and Batmans issues? Unholy Psycho-Analysis, Batman!

[Raimun]

I'd like to see Batman go up against Silent Hill. Not the silly cult, mind you: Just have him take a stroll through the town itself. Maybe Joker is hiding there or something. That guy's got a lot of internal angst for the town to exploit. Yeah, he'd probably get out the other side (he is the very definition of heroic willpower), but it would be really interesting to watch.

Yes, it would be. Shame that he wouldn't encounter Pyramid Head.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yes, it would be. Shame that he wouldn't encounter Pyramid Head.

I almost get the feeling Pyramid Head has become a given, even though he was originally a very specific thing. It's like his original appearence was so iconic that he became a general part of Silent Hill.

He probably wouldn't show up, but if he did, that wouldn't be too surprising either.

[DiscipleofBob]

I'm pretty sure Batman would spend the entire time in Silent Hill wondering where Scarecrow was hiding.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Doesn't Wonder Woman have a good track record for beating Batman, being a Flying Brick with no obvious weak-points with which to exploit? This is what TvTropes tells me anyway...

[Callos_DeTerran]

Doesn't Wonder Woman have a good track record for beating Batman, being a Flying Brick with no obvious weak-points with which to exploit? This is what TvTropes tells me anyway...

[Raimun]

Now that I think, Captain America might be able to beat Batman. He's Batman's equal or superior both physically and heroically and he might be able to guilt-trip him to make it a straight up boxing match... with kicks, shields and batarangs, of course. Still, tough fight.

[THeBigZ]

Now that I think, Captain America might be able to beat Batman. He's Batman's equal or superior both physically and heroically and he might be able to guilt-trip him to make it a straight up boxing match... with kicks, shields and batarangs, of course. Still, tough fight.

There is no way at all that Captain America could beat Batman!! It would be a great fight between opposites (i.e. Marvel v. DC, Dark and gritty justice v. good straight to it justice), but still Batman always wins!

[Raimun]

There is no way at all that Captain America could beat Batman!! It would be a great fight between opposites (i.e. Marvel v. DC, Dark and gritty justice v. good straight to it justice), but still Batman always wins!

Guilt-trip trumps prep.

"Fight like a warrior, Batman."

[Dienekes]

Cap vs Bat has happened before.

They fought for awhile, then Batman talked Cap down saying that it was possible that Cap could beat him, but it would be better if they spent their efforts elsewhere.

[DiscipleofBob]

I'd actually put my money on the Cap.

No real weaknesses to exploit, can hold his own in hand-to-hand combat, is an opponent that Batman would likely go hand-to-hand with.

In a straight-up, fair, basically no powers fight, Captain America is usually a safe bet.

Actually, I'm betting it would be a tie, and then to settle it we'd have Jason Todd fight Winter Soldier.

[Traab]

Doesn't Wonder Woman have a good track record for beating Batman, being a Flying Brick with no obvious weak-points with which to exploit? This is what TvTropes tells me anyway...

Pfft, she is vulnerable to being tied up by men. Batman ties up people constantly. He is her kryptonite. /nod

[Eldan]

Any number of godlike beings. The Endless. Whoever holds the Auryn.

[Karoht]

"No real weaknesses to exploit, can hold his own in hand-to-hand combat, is an opponent that Batman would likely go hand-to-hand with."
Assuming no gizmos...

Batman opens with attacks designed to keep Cap behind the shield. Eventually Cap goes to strike from behind the shield, Batman then goes for the disarms.
Due to the fact that most grapples can not be overcome via sheer strength alone, this is Batman's next goal. And given that he's trained in Judo and other wrestling arts, where Cap has military training and experience but not much of that is grappling, my money is still on Bats getting the hold, getting the grapple to work. At which point, it becomes a question of Super Strength and Endurance VS Grappling which robs the opponent of the advantage of Strength. There is a chance that Cap might be able to hold out longer than Bats, but I doubt it.


In a straight up Boxing Match, where the proper rules of boxing apply, my money is on Cap.
Unless Batman bribes the judges and the ref.

[Urpriest]

Rand Al'Thor (Wheel of Time)
Most other Channelers (Wheel of Time)

I'd doubt these. Rand in particular has a tendency to be very easily manipulated and make very petulant decisions, and while that tendency is receding in recent books I still think he'd be vulnerable to a typical Batman Gambit, unless he unleashed the sort of full-on Ta'veren power that he almost used on Tuon.

[jseah]

Anyone with a time travel superpower/time machine, used intelligently. But then that guy could take on alot of stuff and win.

If Consistency Principle is applied, then the time traveller gets to be even more crazy prepared than batman... without doing a single thing. Just being able and willing to use the time machine/superpower is enough to create ontological paradoxes.

I'd doubt these. Rand in particular has a tendency to be very easily manipulated and make very petulant decisions, and while that tendency is receding in recent books I still think he'd be vulnerable to a typical Batman Gambit, unless he unleashed the sort of full-on Ta'veren power that he almost used on Tuon.

I've only read up to 10, but I haven't seen Rand and Tuon meet yet.

Are you thinking of Mat? But yes, that chance thing is pretty insane.

*coin flip, lands on edge, all: ...*

[Soras Teva Gee]

In an actual straight fight:

-Anyone who's fighting skill exceeds Bats. List starts with Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain.

-Anyone that has a convienent superpower to work against Bat's standard tricks. List starts with Spidey.

-Anyone that is just so overwhelming even with all carrying their weakness in his pocket Bats can barely manage a stalemate most days. List starts with Superman.

If giving prep time:

-Anyone who ability to plan is on par with Bats and reason to take preparation. List starts with Doctor Doom.

-Anyone that meets the fair fight criteria without a sufficiently exploitable weakpoint. List again starts with Superman (yeah Kryptonite is pretty much the only thing that gives even a loose chance and the record there is poor)

Really Bats isn't all that unbeatable, you just have to turn off the GREAT AND WORSHIPFUL BATGOD knee-jerk a lot of people have.

[Karoht]

Really Bats isn't all that unbeatable, you just have to turn off the GREAT AND WORSHIPFUL BATGOD knee-jerk a lot of people have.

Hence why I suggested the Boxing Match. With the official rules and all that jazz.

[Kitten Champion]

Evidence shows, that if the world was really against Batman, he'd quit. I suspect that's the case of most superheroes unless they choose to become villains. If he was re-cast as a villain, he'd lose -- the fact that heroes such as Superman know he's Bruce Wayne would mean he'd lose fairly quickly.

[Omergideon]

Yeah. Based on actual stats, experience and power levels, bukc naked in an arena Bats is very easily beatable. Even with prep the list of guys who should destroy him by twitching their eyeballs is pretty large (I mean, Bats vs Silver Surfer.....c'mon).

It is the knee Jerk reaction that hands him a lot of his wins

[Urpriest]

I've only read up to 10, but I haven't seen Rand and Tuon meet yet.

Are you thinking of Mat? But yes, that chance thing is pretty insane.

*coin flip, lands on edge, all: ...*

I'm thinking of Rand, but apparently we're in spoiler territory so I'll stop. But sure, Mat also provides examples of extreme Ta'verening that could probably ruin a carefully crafted Batman Gambit.

[Mordar]

Batman opens with attacks designed to keep Cap behind the shield. Eventually Cap goes to strike from behind the shield, Batman then goes for the disarms. Due to the fact that most grapples can not be overcome via sheer strength alone, this is Batman's next goal. And given that he's trained in Judo and other wrestling arts, where Cap has military training and experience but not much of that is grappling, my money is still on Bats getting the hold, getting the grapple to work. At which point, it becomes a question of Super Strength and Endurance VS Grappling which robs the opponent of the advantage of Strength. There is a chance that Cap might be able to hold out longer than Bats, but I doubt it.
In a straight up Boxing Match, where the proper rules of boxing apply, my money is on Cap.
Unless Batman bribes the judges and the ref.

Now, I do believe Batman and CA would be a great match up with the assumption that Batman is not ambushing him with the intent to incapacitate...tranquilizers, gas attacks, tazers on an unsuspecting Steve/Cap would do the trick, and he can be ambushed. Basically, anything other than an organized contest, Batman wins by using his greater arsenal and mobility.

That being said, Cap does have extensive hand-to-hand training, both as a soldier and as a secret agent/SHIELD operative, and has frequently demonstrated his close-fighting skills. The scene in the CA movie where he tosses the HYDRA agent from the water to the top of the pier not withstanding, CA doesn't have super-strength, but human paragon strength...pretty much the same as Batman. Effectively from a physical perspective they are as close to mirrors as we're going to get, so the winner would be the one with the situational advantage.

Now, to the real question at hand, I think the qualifiers for non-World Beaters (the Alpha level, or whatever we're calling the likes of Surfer, Thor, Galactus, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc) that could beat Batman are many, and that it is again a situational issue.

Does Batman have any reason to expect the opponent is coming for them? If not, any speedster (Flash, Quicksilver - though Flash/Reverse Flash could always take Batman out, regardless), marksman (Deadpool, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Deathstroke, etc) or incapactiator (Plastic Man, Medusa, Professor X...okay, he wins regardless, but you get the idea) can certainly get the drop on Batman and take him out. Of course, if the "match" is best 2 out of 3 falls, Batman will win Round 2 and 3.

It comes down to having a way to cancel Batman's advantage/greatest strength - preparation. Bane did it, Predator did it, I'm sure Catwoman must have done it a time or two.

The beauty of Batman is that he is a street level hero who has risen to Super Hero level...but he's always got to be on his A-game to stay there. A nearly limitless array of super-powered adversaries out to just beat Batman (not crush his spirit, not match wits with him, not tempt him into doing something naughty) can win...especially if Batman doesn't see it coming.