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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    Im not talking about that fight, im talking about everything that went down beforehand, where in each cases Natsu pegget in as being around his usual level of power.

    I also find the thing about Natsu wanting to win more though the power of friendship to be rubbish from the authors side, considering that we saw Sting & Rogue had a very clear and strong motivation to win as well.
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    I actually took that completely the oppisite. It was STING AND ROGUE who had Friendship Power. Natsu had strait up full on super beat stick powers, and this world has shown, with the ressurection of Acnologia, that friendship power no longer solves all problems. Being overpowered does.

    Either that, or the relathionship between Sting and Lecthor ISN'T FRIENDSHIP, when it clearly is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I actually took that completely the oppisite. It was STING AND ROGUE who had Friendship Power. Natsu had strait up full on super beat stick powers, and this world has shown, with the ressurection of Acnologia, that friendship power no longer solves all problems. Being overpowered does.

    Either that, or the relathionship between Sting and Lecthor ISN'T FRIENDSHIP, when it clearly is.
    They had friendship power, but they didn't know how to use it. The message being a guild like saber tooth that only cares about results does not foster the strength that a guild like fairy tail which supports its family does. Natsu was fighting for Lucy in a way that Sting couldn't really match.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    They had friendship power, but they didn't know how to use it. The message being a guild like saber tooth that only cares about results does not foster the strength that a guild like fairy tail which supports its family does. Natsu was fighting for Lucy in a way that Sting couldn't really match.
    this. On the other hand, Sting and rogue were 2 overhyped little b*tches. One could argue that by leaving for 7 years FT's main cast has left a powervacuüm. If they are gone long enough the bar for great power may have been lowered. Besides, Sting and rogue weren't using the power of friendship, they were using the curse of arrogance. They were fighting like they 'only' needed to push Natsu and Gajeel in the dirt so they could prove they were superior, while Natsu and Gajeel actually had a bone to pick with ST. For instance about harrassing Lucy, and the other Celestial wizard they exiled from their guild. Besides, with the way DS magic powerrating works, despair is a limiter, determination and vengeance are accellerators.

    On the power scale of natsu, he is an idiot. Charges in head first (literally sometimes) and never stops to think on strategy. He might just be (barring fairy law and glitter, but that would be cheating slightly), after guildarts, the strongest person in the guild. His only problem is beïng a constant. When in a super emotional state he is nigh unbeatable, normally he is quite harmless.

    Also, an explanation of his fight with the god slayer: Natsu eats flames. Flames are his energy. By consuming flames he recovers his energy bite for bite. I see his problem iwth godslayer flames is having to eat too much energy: for instande say you are eating a watermelon: if you eat it bite for bite nothing is wrong (normal, or indeed magical flames), but when you try and wolf down the whole watermelon at once you're gonna have a problem (god slayer flames). So natsu only needed to learn how to ingest and 'chew' the watermelon whole so he could take in the god slayer's flames. Now imagine the god slayer flames are not only watermelon, but with a nice cup of coffee. The watermelon and the water in the coffee si perfectly fine, you can take that. But the cafeïne is something different. Sure you can take some, it might even help you, but with enough cafeïne (especially if you are not used to the matter) you'll soon start reacting in a bad way to the stuff, hence explaining the problem with foreign fire substitutes and why he can still take them, if only in a small measure. I think Fairy Tail is one fo the better manga's out there. Though beaten by Shaman King (and it's derivatives) and hellsing, but they are pretty much the top for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    If they are gone long enough the bar for great power may have been lowered.
    Cutting short most of the long post... No. It's been made quite a point out of the fact that the power levels have risen. Natsu pre-upgrade has problems fighting Max. Sting and Rouge are considered to be levels above that.

    I'm rather not trying to come up with explanations for... mostly anything in FT... at least regarding power levels, especially Natsu's... But that's just my take.
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    Honestly, I feel like we shouldn't be upset at Fairy Tale stomping the guilds right now. I feel like the guilds aren't the main issue, and that this is all filler.

    I think... the real battle is coming soon. This is just to entertain until that point... while everything for the stage is being set in the shadows...

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    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    Honestly, I feel like we shouldn't be upset at Fairy Tale stomping the guilds right now. I feel like the guilds aren't the main issue, and that this is all filler.

    I think... the real battle is coming soon. This is just to entertain until that point... while everything for the stage is being set in the shadows...
    True, this is probably the case, but filler should still actually BE exciting. The build up of the enemy guilds, and those in said guilds, did not pay off.

    Raven Tail? Completely destroyed by Laxus in an anticlimax.

    Sting and Rogue? Ruined completely by Natsu in an anticlimax.

    The Sabertooth Guild Leader? Seemingly KILLED by Sting, thus getting rid of a possible Guild Leader fight, which could of been awesome.

    The only pay off that I really liked was whats her face beating the ever loving crap out of Lucy, and the man fight vs Bacchus and Elfman. Though with that last one it wasn't as good as it should of been.

    Seriously. He basically says, strait out, that after he beats you he's going to forcibly sex up your sister and her best friend. Taking his bet and having your side be "you have to have a silly nickname is...really not suitable.

    Oh, right, also those two chapters before chapter 300. Those were good filler chapters (even if the first one was really really really shallow).
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    True, this is probably the case, but filler should still actually BE exciting. The build up of the enemy guilds, and those in said guilds, did not pay off.

    Raven Tail? Completely destroyed by Laxus in an anticlimax.
    and justified. old emotional issues->rising emotions->strength->can of whoop ass

    Besides
    Raven tail was supposed to be the antithesis of FT, that is, that's what they aimed for, But in the end they turned out to be weak, especially after the training from hell FTB seems to have had.

    Sting and Rogue? Ruined completely by Natsu in an anticlimax.
    with all the animosity between Natsu and ST, see above, besides, Natsu has a powerlevel over 9000, especially since he got his reserves doubled and migrated into not only fire, but lightning as well... that scanner is right you know...

    The Sabertooth Guild Leader? Seemingly KILLED by Sting, thus getting rid of a possible Guild Leader fight, which could of been awesome.
    again, ayup, you guessed it, emotions+DS magic=win (it's becoming a pattern isn't it? Almost sees like Naruto's Sharingan hax)

    The only pay off that I really liked was whats her face beating the ever loving crap out of Lucy, and the man fight vs Bacchus and Elfman. Though with that last one it wasn't as good as it should of been.
    Lucy getting beaten didn't do it for me. Oh lucy needs to lose... But she has the best chances with having the key to aquarius and all. No worries, Aquarius will go into bitchmode leaving Lucy powerless.

    elfman was awesome all right. he fought like a Real Man(tm)

    Seriously. He basically says, strait out, that after he beats you he's going to forcibly sex up your sister and her best friend. Taking his bet and having your side be "you have to have a silly nickname is...really not suitable.
    I think you misunderstood: It was about taking the manliness away from his enemy, turning him into his bitch. That's worse then sisters. Waaayyy worse. Besides Elfman knows MJ can handle herself
    Oh, right, also those two chapters before chapter 300. Those were good filler chapters (even if the first one was really really really shallow).
    Oh hell yeah. First fanservice heaven (more or less), then a well written chapter without dialogue, I mean that's hard to do man, expressing without dialog.

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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    They had friendship power, but they didn't know how to use it. The message being a guild like saber tooth that only cares about results does not foster the strength that a guild like fairy tail which supports its family does. Natsu was fighting for Lucy in a way that Sting couldn't really match.
    But thats the whole issue, Sting was actualy fighting for what was proberly his oldest and best friend, Natsu was just fighting for his desire for vengeance, by all that we have seen so far in the serie Sting should have won that fight.

    this. On the other hand, Sting and rogue were 2 overhyped little b*tches. One could argue that by leaving for 7 years FT's main cast has left a powervacuüm. If they are gone long enough the bar for great power may have been lowered. Besides, Sting and rogue weren't using the power of friendship, they were using the curse of arrogance. They were fighting like they 'only' needed to push Natsu and Gajeel in the dirt so they could prove they were superior, while Natsu and Gajeel actually had a bone to pick with ST. For instance about harrassing Lucy, and the other Celestial wizard they exiled from their guild. Besides, with the way DS magic powerrating works, despair is a limiter, determination and vengeance are accellerators.
    Yeah, well if the author had been able to manage a consistent system of power then they would also be deserving of the hype, what with being able to enter DF at will and all

    And Sting certainly had the greater claim for the power of friendship, seing as he was not fighting for himself, but for what was proberly his oldest and closest friend.
    Natsu meanwhile cant really claim anything but a desire for revenge thats quite misguidet, seing as neither Rogue nor Sting has ever laid a hand upon another member of FT (besides Gajeel).

    with all the animosity between Natsu and ST, see above, besides, Natsu has a powerlevel over 9000, especially since he got his reserves doubled and migrated into not only fire, but lightning as well... that scanner is right you know...
    Yes, see the mentioning of ruining above, now that Natsu has shown he is able to take both of them down at once without going serious, then its allmost impossible to take what could have been some great recurring antagonists seriously.

    again, ayup, you guessed it, emotions+DS magic=win (it's becoming a pattern isn't it? Almost sees like Naruto's Sharingan hax)
    And thats another problem with the abuse of the emotionally boost DS magic can pull out, as before the timeskip it was only providing a minor boost.

    The Natsu i grew to love won though determination and from friends assisting him, this new post-timeskip DBZ rubbish is something you can keep, i dont want any of it.

    Lucy getting beaten didn't do it for me. Oh lucy needs to lose... But she has the best chances with having the key to aquarius and all. No worries, Aquarius will go into bitchmode leaving Lucy powerless.

    elfman was awesome all right. he fought like a Real Man(tm)
    Tbh, the only thing i found stupid in the Lucy fight was the way she lost, Celestrial magic has generally turned out quite useless in my eyes, but when the summons cant even be bothered to assist her it becomes close to worthless.
    The Elfman fight however was awesome, proberly the best fight in the arc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    I think you misunderstood: It was about taking the manliness away from his enemy, turning him into his bitch. That's worse then sisters. Waaayyy worse. Besides Elfman knows MJ can handle herself
    I personally completely agree with La's point on this one; you can talk about my manliness all you want, and I might be civil enough when there are witnessess to get yours stripped from you. But threatening essentially rape onto the two girls I care most about?

    Elfman should have taken down the entire Yamcha Guild himself...

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    @lord_khaine: The entire Sabertooth guild stood there laughing while Lucy was being tortured. Natsu's rage was on another level entirely from Sting's motivation of "I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was" even if it was for his friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    @lord_khaine: The entire Sabertooth guild stood there laughing while Lucy was being tortured. Natsu's rage was on another level entirely from Sting's motivation of "I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was" even if it was for his friend.
    He didn't look or act at all like he was channeling that rage, though. Heck, even when he defeated Gajeel with his Ultimate Summoning Technique: Minecart Madness*, he had his standard attitude of overconfident silly smileness.

    Had Natsu been looking like he did before, ready to be out for blood and with no one to get in his way, -all- of his actions would have been justified. Not a single person would have complained about him curbstomping both of them if he had acted -that- pissed off. I'd bet on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    He didn't look or act at all like he was channeling that rage, though. Heck, even when he defeated Gajeel with his Ultimate Summoning Technique: Minecart Madness*, he had his standard attitude of overconfident silly smileness.

    Had Natsu been looking like he did before, ready to be out for blood and with no one to get in his way, -all- of his actions would have been justified. Not a single person would have complained about him curbstomping both of them if he had acted -that- pissed off. I'd bet on that.
    Have you ever been pissed off enough to not explode or go nuclear anymore but instead freeze solid? Inthink usui horokeu has shown it in a perfect way in shaman king (cant remember where). At some time you just go beyond and get back through the other end... Maybe Natsu had that. Either that or he learned to channel way better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Have you ever been pissed off enough to not explode or go nuclear anymore but instead freeze solid? Inthink usui horokeu has shown it in a perfect way in shaman king (cant remember where). At some time you just go beyond and get back through the other end... Maybe Natsu had that. Either that or he learned to channel way better.
    The thing is, in the fight, he wasn't looking like that, either. He was doing silly natsu half the time. Not really Super Serious, or Super Pissed, but Silly.

    Does this at -all- look like he's taking them seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    The thing is, in the fight, he wasn't looking like that, either. He was doing silly natsu half the time. Not really Super Serious, or Super Pissed, but Silly.

    Does this at -all- look like he's taking them seriously?

    All I see is awesome Natsu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    All I see is awesome Natsu.
    Yes, but awesome Natsu should have looked more like Murder Natsu.

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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    Natsu's anger wasn't really centered on Sting and Rogue though. For that fight he just wanted to prove that Fairy Tail's way was better than Sabertooth's, and for that his showing off made sense.

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    By every rule of drama and writing that I know, the "villians" should of won that fight. This was basically the first time we ever saw Sting and Rogue do any fighting. They were built up. They killed DRAGONS man. And then Natsu just mops the floor with them, after both he and Gajeel take on their DRAGONFORCE mode attacks without breaking a sweat.

    The least they could of done is have Natsu and Gajeel atleast look hurt, and have Natsu collapse after using so much energy to beat the two of them. Make it atleast look like he had to exert effort to beat them.
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    Like I said before it's not so much that Natsu winning was bad but the entire fight was horribly handled. As a result any potential interest in Sabertooth and by extension the entire tournament was destroyed. Sure that arc was wrapping up but there was no need to completely kill any suspense or interest that it had.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    By every rule of drama and writing that I know, the "villians" should of won that fight. This was basically the first time we ever saw Sting and Rogue do any fighting. They were built up. They killed DRAGONS man. And then Natsu just mops the floor with them, after both he and Gajeel take on their DRAGONFORCE mode attacks without breaking a sweat.

    The least they could of done is have Natsu and Gajeel atleast look hurt, and have Natsu collapse after using so much energy to beat the two of them. Make it atleast look like he had to exert effort to beat them.
    Yes, it does kill all of the build up. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. It established that Sabertooth is not the main opposition and that the festival was just a small part of a bigger plot (and that was foreshadowed heavily beforehand). I'm surprised you haven't picked up on this, LaZodiac, since you tend to be so genre savvy - tournaments on shounen manga are rarely played straight, to the point that the tournament being interrupted by X is pretty much a trope on it's own. Sabertooth and Raven Tail were decoy antagonists, that has been clear for quite a while now. Did Mashima spend too much time building them up? Maybe, but we don't know if they will play a part on the actual arc.

    For all we know, they might befriend FT and then die, being the people mentioned in the letter Levy sends Lucy. In fact, I'd bet money on that, even - I'm pretty sure all dead people mentioned are not from the guild (or just joined the guild for the purposes of being killed off). He used the festival to create some new characters, give them some spotlight, get them some fans, so as to be able to kill them off and have an emotional response. Sacrificial lambs, if you will.

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    Natsu's anger wasn't really centered on Sting and Rogue though. For that fight he just wanted to prove that Fairy Tail's way was better than Sabertooth's, and for that his showing off made sense.
    And this then show that Natsu's desire to show off defeats 2 3rd generation DS who are fighting a bigger cause than personal gain.

    Yes, it does kill all of the build up. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. It established that Sabertooth is not the main opposition and that the festival was just a small part of a bigger plot (and that was foreshadowed heavily beforehand). I'm surprised you haven't picked up on this, LaZodiac, since you tend to be so genre savvy - tournaments on shounen manga are rarely played straight, to the point that the tournament being interrupted by X is pretty much a trope on it's own. Sabertooth and Raven Tail were decoy antagonists, that has been clear for quite a while now. Did Mashima spend too much time building them up? Maybe, but we don't know if they will play a part on the actual arc.
    And there is still no reason whatsoever for doing this, it destroyes a lot of atmosphere and buildup, and thats all it does, there isnt anything else addet in its stead.
    That there was something building up in the bagground was forshadowed pretty heavily, so to start with there wasnt any reason at all for destroying ST as a credible threat, and at the same time it then also managet to completely ruin the buildup that had happend since the start of the timeskip, with the magical world having moved on and evolved to a degree where other guilds would actualy be able to pose a challenge towards FT.

    But now its hard to take anything at all seriously, since Natsu and Gajeel has now displayed a level of power that would allow FT to take on all the other guilds in the tournament and win.

    For all we know, they might befriend FT and then die, being the people mentioned in the letter Levy sends Lucy. In fact, I'd bet money on that, even - I'm pretty sure all dead people mentioned are not from the guild (or just joined the guild for the purposes of being killed off). He used the festival to create some new characters, give them some spotlight, get them some fans, so as to be able to kill them off and have an emotional response. Sacrificial lambs, if you will.
    And again, this has nothing to do with, and could easily be done without, worfing the entire magical world into oblivion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And there is still no reason whatsoever for doing this, it destroyes a lot of atmosphere and buildup, and thats all it does, there isnt anything else addet in its stead.
    Of course there is. It makes perfectly clear that these guys are not the main villain.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    That there was something building up in the bagground was forshadowed pretty heavily, so to start with there wasnt any reason at all for destroying ST as a credible threat, and at the same time it then also managet to completely ruin the buildup that had happend since the start of the timeskip, with the magical world having moved on and evolved to a degree where other guilds would actualy be able to pose a challenge towards FT.
    You see, your reasoning is the entire reason behind doing this. You thought the magical world having moved on or Sabertooth being around was plot critical. Turns out it isn't. Showing so blatantly that Sabertooth is not a critical threat is the only way to make sure they are not at all important, just a bunch of overhyped dudes. Does it ruin the build up? Yes, of course it does, that's the whole point of a decoy antagonist.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    But now its hard to take anything at all seriously, since Natsu and Gajeel has now displayed a level of power that would allow FT to take on all the other guilds in the tournament and win.
    And that does not matter, since the tournament is not important at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And again, this has nothing to do with, and could easily be done without, worfing the entire magical world into oblivion.
    That is simply not what happened here. Natsu was able to defeat Rogue and Sting. People have been saying they are the bee's knees. The obvious conclusion is that they are, well, not. You're jumping to the conclusion that they are indeed as powerful as advertised and by consequence that Natsu is above everyone else in the tournament. That ignores two key factors:
    1) It is very likely they are not as powerful as you were led to think
    2) Natsu's power fluctuates wildly
    Basically, you're making a big deal out of something that clearly isn't. I understand you not liking it, but it does serve a purpose in storytelling. It could have been done differently but then again, anything could.

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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

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    Not much happening, i sense some buildup for whats next. And iguess leaving natsu out is a great decision. He wont be able to focus anyway with what's happening to lucy and all. I hope MJ will show us how much her demonform can actually wreck.

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  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    Two things that I kind of dred for the following chapters

    1: Juvia's gonna get beat up to show how powerful Sabertooth is (which is pointless since Sabertooth are losers evidently, thus making half of the entire manga right now completely pointless).

    2: Mariejean isn't actually going to get to do anything because she's with Natsu and Wendy. This makes me sad because Mariejean and Elfman are my favorite characters.

    I probably spelt her name wrong though, because it's barely ever mentioned.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    LaZodiac you seem quite pessimistic. I mean you're probably right, but still. No need to see only the worst of it. Me I'm quite looking forward to seeing Erza crush everything in her path.
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  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    Yeah see the problem is that right now there isn't any tension on one of the fronts. Sabertooth just suck so there isn't any drama of them winning.

    The other side is interesting because it involves Wendy and the cats as well we might get to see what defenses the kingdom has against rouge super mages.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Of course there is. It makes perfectly clear that these guys are not the main villain.
    A. you dont need to worf the entire magical world to show these are not the main villains, letting Natsu and Gajeel win a close victory though sheer determination ala the battle of FT could have accomplished this without ruining everything else.

    B. You dont need to show these are not the main villains because there had been enough things moving around in the shadows to hint at additional threats.

    C. You dont need to dedicate an entire chapter to show that these are not the main villains, since revealing the main villain would have done the same thing faster.

    There, thats 3 reasons why that was awfull storytelling.

    You see, your reasoning is the entire reason behind doing this. You thought the magical world having moved on or Sabertooth being around was plot critical. Turns out it isn't. Showing so blatantly that Sabertooth is not a critical threat is the only way to make sure they are not at all important, just a bunch of overhyped dudes. Does it ruin the build up? Yes, of course it does, that's the whole point of a decoy antagonist.
    And i think you missed the collatoral damage from this, seing as it hit not only SB both all the other guilds as well.

    And that does not matter, since the tournament is not important at all.
    What does that have to do with the tournament?
    When i say take on, i mean FT style, with collatoral damage to ruin the entire city in the process.

    That is simply not what happened here. Natsu was able to defeat Rogue and Sting. People have been saying they are the bee's knees. The obvious conclusion is that they are, well, not. You're jumping to the conclusion that they are indeed as powerful as advertised and by consequence that Natsu is above everyone else in the tournament. That ignores two key factors:
    1) It is very likely they are not as powerful as you were led to think
    2) Natsu's power fluctuates wildly
    Basically, you're making a big deal out of something that clearly isn't. I understand you not liking it, but it does serve a purpose in storytelling. It could have been done differently but then again, anything could.
    Now this is actualy an interesting argument worth close considderation.
    And yes, if we take the match alone, then the clear conclussion should have been that the 2 DS's of ST were just simply to inexperienced, due to not having fought the same number of life or death battles.
    Unfortunately, we were shown repeatedly and from several sources, that it was in the entire magical world, and though several victories in the guild tournaments, that the DS duo had earned their reputation.

    A reputation that was supportet by the rest of the ST team, who generally showed a very solid level of skill, if they had been weak enough to lose to Natsu in a 1 vs 2, then it should have been noticed by the rest of the team, who would have had to carry them though previous tournaments.

    1) Even accounting for overblown reputation, if Natsu has not turned into the second comming of Gildarts, then its a huge plothole that he is able to defeat 2 DS's using Dragon Force, the same buff that allowed him to defeat a wastly superior wizard saint.

    2)Yeah, Natsu's level of power does suffer from random plot-related jumps, though barring outside influence activating DF, then its actualy not that big of a jump, usualy just barely enough to win.
    But the problem here was then that Natsu made it look easy, meaning that its not Natsu"absolute peak of his power" that won, but Natsu"goofing around with his guildies" that defeated 2 other DS's.

    But regarding the new chapter, then yeah, it is going to see if the kingdom has anything in reserve to deal with a team like this, who could crush normal castles and armies with ease.

    Also, it would be nice to know a bit more about the gouverment of the Kingdom, like if its an absolute monarcy or not, because breaking Lucy out by force (impossible to do it by stealth with Natsu on the team), should make the entire guild criminals, and this most of all leads my thoughs towards the Ernes Lobby arc in OP, where the strawhats declared war on the world gouverment.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Lord Khaine on the issue of Dragon Force; Do we know that it was Dragon Force itself or what Natsu ate to trigger it that actually created the major swing in power? Or that 3rd generation DS's Dragon Force operates identically other than being triggerable at will?
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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    I think what your missing is no one, not even the other members of Fairy Tail, expected Natsu to do as well as he did. Sure Sting and Rogue got hit hard with the Worf Effect, but the point it served was to show just how freaking strong Natsu has become.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

    I don't really understand their decision on how to split the teams, really.
    Have Natsu and MJ ever worked together before? Why couldn't they send more people along with them (say, Lisana or Levvy)?

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