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    Default Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    If I were to allow my players to choose bladespells for a hybrid character as if they were at-will Wizard Attack 1's, would that be over powered? I'm not experienced enough to predict problems with that.

    ~EDIT~
    To clarify, this wouldn't create a new hybrid class option, just add bladespells to the pool of choices for hybrid wizards.
    Last edited by shamgar001; 2012-09-01 at 03:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    The default for hybrids is that you can't get two "special effects" on one attack: for instance, a fighter|rogue gets the fighter's mark or the rogue's sneak attack, but never both. As long as your bladesinger obeys this restriction, he'll be fine.

    That is, assuming he doesn't get bladesong. Bladesong is ridiculously overpowered on any other class.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The default for hybrids is that you can't get two "special effects" on one attack: for instance, a fighter|rogue gets the fighter's mark or the rogue's sneak attack, but never both. As long as your bladesinger obeys this restriction, he'll be fine.

    That is, assuming he doesn't get bladesong. Bladesong is ridiculously overpowered on any other class.
    So if he's a ranger|wizard and makes a MBA, he can either do a bladespell or quarry damage, but not both, correct?
    Last edited by shamgar001; 2012-09-01 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by shamgar001 View Post
    So if he's a ranger|wizard and makes a MBA, he can either do a bladespell or quarry damage, but not both, correct?
    Precisely.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Actually, I don't think hybrid rangers can do quarry damage on a MBA at all. Just for ranger powers.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by shamgar001 View Post
    So if he's a ranger|wizard and makes a MBA, he can either do a bladespell or quarry damage, but not both, correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Precisely.
    As the hybrid obsessed player, I have a slight correction to this. The way the vast majority of hybrids work, you only get to add class features to powers from that class. So quarry damage is only ever applied to ranger powers. MBAs, RBAs, item, and racial powers no longer get these bonuses.

    So the MBA gets no bonus, and a ranger power can only get quarry damage, and quarry damage only applies to ranger powers.

    The only class that I know of that gets around this is the assassin, I think. I'm still working my way through understanding all the classes.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Being my friend and DM, I could just tell you what I think. But here's what I think would be a good way to hybridize a Bladesinger;

    Take the stat block of a normal Hybrid Wizard for the Bladesinger's stat block.

    Instead of the normal Wizard class features, you'd have these;

    • Blade Magic,
    • Instinctive Attack,
    • Bladespells (Hybrid); Instead of gaining a Wizard at will, you gain two Bladespells,
    • Bladesinger Cantrips,
    • Bladesinger's Spellbook (Hybrid) A Hybrid Bladesinger may not take Wizard daily or encounter powers. Instead, whenever you gain or replace daily or encounter powers, you can choose two Wizard encounter powers of your level or lower to add to your spellbook. For you, they act as daily powers. For every encounter or daily power that you chose to forgo, you may have one daily use of a power from your spellbook. As far as the total of powers go concerning how many encounters/dailies, it would probably be up to the DM. I'd suggest three encounters from the other side of the hybrid, and three dailies total, choosing between powers from your Bladesinger's book of encounters-as-dailies or your other hybrid class.


    You'll notice some of the few things that make a Bladesinger not sub-par is missing. So I'd add the following as hybrid talents;

    • Bladesong (Hybrid) You can replace one of your encounter powers with Bladesong,
    • Guarded Flourish,
    • Bladesinger Fighting Style; At level 3, you gain the Arcane Strike class feature, at level 7 you gain the Steely Resort class feature, at level 13, you gain the Unerring Bladespell class feature, and at level 23, you gain the Bladespell Burst class feature.


    Alternatively, you could allow a person to instead of gaining or retraining an encounter power, to instead opt to gain one of the class features in the Bladesinger Fighting Style section.

    The odd Bladesinger makes encounter powers become daily powers, but makes things that would otherwise be encounter powers turn into class features that can be used at-will. As far as how to handle hybridizing in that aspect can be tricky.

    Edit;

    Tegu - the Executioner (Assassin) is indeed the only one getting around this, as basic attacks get the Attack Finesse class feature added. Nice for combing with a Warlock with Eldritch Strike or Blackguard with Virtuous Strike. You can get the bonus damage from both class features on a single at will with those hybrids. Might be something to look into, bud.

    Edit 2;

    My alternative is this - remove the Bladesinger Fighting Style and Bladesinger Spellbook (Hybrid) entries for features, and instead use this;

    Bladesinger Spellbook (Hybrid); You do not take normal Wizard encounter or daily powers. You gain a Bladesinger's spellbook. Whenever you can gain or replace a daily power, you may opt to select a Wizard encounter power of your level or lower to place in your spellbook. For you, they act as daily powers. Each day, you may select to prepare daily powers from your spellbook for each daily power you forgo, for up to a total of three (including daily powers from your other hybridized class.)

    Bladesinger Fighting Style; At each appropriate level, you may opt to instead gain the feature from the Bladesinger Fighting Style instead of gaining or retraining an encounter power from your other hybridized class.

    In short - Spellbook with Wizard-encounters-as-dailies in lou of choosing a normal daily, and gain no encounter powers. Whenever you could gain one of the Bladespell/MBA class features, you can get that instead of gaining or retraining an encounter power.
    Last edited by Alan_Pehnereas; 2012-09-01 at 10:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by shamgar001 View Post
    Actually, I don't think hybrid rangers can do quarry damage on a MBA at all. Just for ranger powers.
    True enough, but you can't make a BS do only damage on BS attack powers, since he doesn't have any. It's one of those MBA-every-round classes.

    I feel the assassin's ability to stack two striker features on one attack is an oversight and should not be considered the default for other hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan_Pehnereas View Post
    [*]Bladesong (Hybrid) You can replace one of your encounter powers with Bladesong,
    I strongly recommend against this. You can improve pretty much any melee class by hybriding with bladesinger, taking a feat for this ridiculous power, and completely ignoring the rest of your BS half. This should just not be available to hybrids period.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2012-09-02 at 03:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Look what the normal hybrid wizard gets.

    Cantrips. And nothing else.

    For a feat they get a little extra. But not all that much.


    Many classes completely loose features as hybrids they can never get back, like Lay on Hands for the paladin.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    True. This just follows the standard striker-feature version of a hybrid. The Bladesinger may be a "controller," but it's played as a half-assed striker.

    As far as the Bladespell is concerned, you're right - it should be completely removed. It's WAY too much for a Hybridized Ranger, for example. Still can get away with nastily abusing Bladespell with a Bladesinger PMC Ranger (Dual Strike). Better if you're a Half-Elf who takes Throw and Stab.

    Anyway, one of the other hard things about the Bladesinger is that it sacrifices having encounter powers in any forms is (supposedly) made up for by having tons of better ways to use its at-wills (those class features at level 3, 7, 13, and 23.) Because of this really weird sideways-optimization features, you can't sacrifice too much in class features.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    If it gives up encounter powers, then consider using psionic classes or essential classes as a guide. You get to use the power per encounter, if you don't get a power from the other class.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Ha ha ha...

    That's more complicated that this, Tegu.

    But I'm also following along the lines of how a Blackguard or Executioner works as far as not selecting powers, but rather increasing what it does already - like the Dread Smite or Assassin's Strike. This is pretty much in line with those.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I feel the assassin's ability to stack two striker features on one attack is an oversight and should not be considered the default for other hybrids.
    Just wanted to note that, the way it's worded (in the online CB at least) the monk's Flurry of Blows is also an exception that allows you to stack multiple striker features; the trigger remains that you hit with an attack and doesn't specify that it must be a monk attack. So...Assassin|Monk anybody?
    Last edited by ghost_warlock; 2012-09-11 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    The Hybrid Monk restriction is in the Monastic Tradition(Hybrid). It states that your Flurry of Blows is only triggered by Monk powers, or Monk Paragon Path powers.

    It is important to note that you really only need one half to do the stacking. ie like the Assassin's Attack Finesse applying to basic attacks then the other half using basic attacks (Paladin/Blackguard, Seeker, Warlock, etc) or having encounter powers that also trigger off Basic Attacks (Bard "Skald" powers, Blackguard/Cavilier Smite, etc). Or using classes who's damage features can be applied though minor/immediate action attacks (Rogue, Ranger, Warlock, etc) to allow you to get both features per turn.

    Themes are less important unless they grant extra instances of basic attacks (for the basic attack hybrids), because they cannot get class damage features because they belong to neither class.

    Hybrid Runepriest on the other hand, has no such restrictions for its "damage feature". Defiant Word and Wrathful Hammer apply to all damage rolls. And it seems Hybrid Invoker would gain the Covenant Manifestation on all Divine power source Encounter and Daily powers. Covenant of Wrath being the more damage oriented one.
    Last edited by Firebug; 2012-09-14 at 02:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    If you take the Hybrid Talent for the Monastic Tradition, you gain the full tradition, which includes an FoB power. Normally, it won't stack. However, with this Hybrid Talent, you can, RAW, apply it to any attack.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Monastic Tradition(Hybrid) states that your Flurry of Blows is only triggered by Monk powers. Expanded Tradition then says you gain all of the features associated with your Monastic Tradition. ie Flurry of Blows and a defensive trait. Do you stop having Monastic Tradition(Hybrid)? You are gaining features in addition to the features you already have. Which includes a restriction. You do not have Flurry of Blows (Hybrid) and Flurry of Blows (non-hybrid). You simply have Flurry of Blows. And your Hybrid Tradition states it is usable only with certain powers.

    If you want to argue that the "new" Flurry is in addition (ie a separate power) I am going to have to remind you that it isn't a separate power, its the same power. Same name, and exact wording.

    To put it another way, consider:
    EXPANDED TRADITION
    You gain all the features associated with your Monastic Tradition.
    MONASTIC TRADITION (HYBRID)
    Choose a Monastic Tradition option. You gain only the Flurry of Blows power associated with that option. You gain all of the features associated with your Monastic Tradition. Your Flurry of Blows power is triggered only when you hit with a monk power or monk paragon path power during your turn. You are considered to have that option for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

    edit: punctuation
    Last edited by Firebug; 2012-09-14 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    The standard FoB is is a feature of the Monastic Tradition, plain and simple. If you gain all the features, you gain all the features.

    Therefore, you have the FoB.

    Yes, it does "override" the initial hybrid entry in this way.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    But it never states you lose the Hybrid restrictions. The game features do what they say they do. It doesn't say anything about removing the restriction of Hybrid Tradition, other then you also gain the other features as well. (ie overriding "You only gain the flurry of blows power" that I showed in my previous post) You don't lose the restriction, therefore you don't lose the restriction.

    The Flurry of Blows power is not in question here. The restriction is. Both Hybrid and Expanded Tradition grant you the same exact thing in regards to Flurry of Blows. They are the exact same power. Hybrids simply have "another" class feature that restricts the usage of the power "Flurry of Blows". For you to be able to use Flurry of Blows without restriction (ie usable on any attack power) you have to Remove Monastic Tradition (Hybrid). Expanded Tradition does not do this.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Firebug is right there, you aren't able to remove the "(Hybrid)" restriction to the power. It's pretty clear that RAI is for strikers to only boost damage for their own powers. The essential classes don't have many hybrids because of all the MBA usage. It's very hard to make hybrids cheesy using features.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    I see where you're coming from. But I do honestly still see my point as making more sense.

    Yes, there is a hybrid function for it. But if you get the full tradition with the hybrid talent, then why don't you get the full tradition? I do understand the hybrid entry, but the hybrid talent says what the hybrid talent says. Why should you even refer to the original entry if you're getting something different.

    Maybe I'm just not seeing something. I could be wrong, but I really don't see why you still have to refer to something that should be obsolete.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    So bottom line, there are multiple possible interpretations, so it's up to your DM to pick one. If your build is simply for fun, he may not have a problem with it, but if your intent is cheese, the DM can block it with RAW.
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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    The reason (which I believe is RAI) the Hybrid Talent refers back to the Full Tradition, is that every single defensive trait has a different name. So they figured it would be easier to just throw in one line referring to the object that contains both the Flurry and the Defensive Trait.

    And to open up design space if they wanted to add in another feature to some new Tradition. For instance:
    Four Winds Tradition (assuming there isn't one): You gain the following Features
    Flurry of Blows: You gain the Four Winds Flurry of Blows
    Light as a Feather: You reduce falling distance by 10/20/30 before calculating damage.
    Whispers of the Wind: While wielding at least one weapon with the off-hand property you gain +1 shield bonus to AC and Ref.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan_Pehnereas View Post
    Yes, there is a hybrid function for it. But if you get the full tradition with the hybrid talent, then why don't you get the full tradition? I do understand the hybrid entry, but the hybrid talent says what the hybrid talent says. Why should you even refer to the original entry if you're getting something different.
    Because you have the feature before you get the talent that makes it "obsolete." The original text is the original text. You pick up the hybrid FoB, then you can use the feat to pick up all the other features, but as you already have FoB you can't get it again.

    Also, PHB3 pg 137.

    TRADING CLASS FEATURES
    A hybrid character can't trade a hybrid version of a class fealure for a nonhybrid, version of a class feature, unless a hybrid class entry expressly allows the trade.
    Expanded Tradition says nothing about replacing your hybrid FoB. It says nothing about it "functions exactly as the --- (page -)." that every other hybrid talent does when it gives a complete feature does. The difference between the "only" and "all" in the different paragraphs. Standard hybrids "only" get FoBs, while the others get the rest of the features.

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    Default Re: Custom Bladesinger Hybrid

    I think up until your last post, Tegu, I think it had been an issue of RAW vs. RAI. Intended, I don't think it's meant to stack the FoB onto any attack.

    With that odd entry, though, I think it makes things still fuzzy. Though I see what you mean about replacing a class feature, that's not the important issue here. Gaining all features from something should mean gaining all features from something.

    Hybrid Talent Option;
    Expanded Tradltlon: You gain all the features associated with your Monastic Tradition.

    I suppose it could just be argued either way. I think regardless, someone should just contact WotC and ask. I would, but to be honest, I really don't care enough. Whether or not hybrid Monks can ever use FoB on any attack doesn't affect my life. :P
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