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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    I can very much imagine the Glacier map being horrifying, but then I find it's often horrifying anyway.
    I quite like Glacier on silver, which is what I usually play on. On gold I've had a lot more trouble with it, though it doesn't help that most gold games I've gotten on it have been against the Collectors or Reapers, and have featured a hacking objective wave with that hack zone near the drop-off point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Still, will have to see what the others are like.
    You've seen Firebase Dagger. Firebase Giant is night-time. Firebase White has a snow-storm blowing outside (doesn't affect the indoor section). Firebase Ghost features acid rain, which steadily damages your shields but does not fall in the buildings nor in a select outdoor area that has some scaffolding overhead. Firebase Glacier has the previously-mentioned Seeker Swarm.

    I think that's it. I haven't seen a hazard version of any of the DLC maps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    London is a hilarious meat-grinder. Though that impression is probably partly due to the party I was in on my only real crack at it. I picked up a fair few snoozing allies that game, even had to solo a round at one point which is never my strongpoint. Luckily it wasn't an objective round, so I just whittled away.
    Generally speaking, if you're not sitting in the defensible spots up at the top of the ramps on the left side of the map, you're doing it wrong. London is a very open map outside of that area, making it hard to avoid getting flanked if you stay down on the ground floor. Which becomes a big problem when you realize that all of the objectives other than the "kill four enemies" one will force you to do that. Still, at least the escort objectives have fairly short routes if you all stay with the drone. Hacking objectives are the worst there though - I'd seriously rather do a hack objective on Firebase Hydra than on London.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Recently dipped back into the multiplayer, having finally gotten round to doing the Leviathan DLC.

    I was surprised by just how much work seems to have gone into it since I last played. It's really looking like a much more professional overall package. I see they even tweaked the easy-gold map of choice.

    Looks pretty good, really. Unlocking things seems even slower than before, admittedly, with the sheer amount of stuff to be unlocked at this point, but I did manage to unlock a Turian Ghost and he's really growing on me.
    Please tell me you're on Xbox >_>

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Incendiary Ammo and Disruptor Ammo were only powers in the technical sense - in practice they modified your gun, they didn't do the damage for you like Warp and Overload. And only one other class got Warp in ME2, the Adept, and they didn't get an anti-shield power. Throw isn't even relevant, as it was not very good in 2, what with protections blocking out powers entirely save for minor staggering effects. Because of that, defense-stripping powers were king in that game, with Warp as the best anti-armor/barrier power and Overload as the best anti-shield power. That they had those two abilities was thus a greater defining point for Sentinels than Tech Armor, even with how overpowered that was.
    I think we are going to have to disagree. I don't think we are even talking about the same thing.

    My Human, Ex-Cerberus, and Slayer Vanguards all get 200% off an Eviscerator 10 + a Phalanx 10, thanks to their rank 6 class upgrade that reduces all weapons' weight by 20%. Disciple wouldn't make any difference there for me.

    The only other Vanguard I play much, the Krogan, I have using the Wraith instead, because his higher carry capacity and shotgun weight decrease put it at 194% even though I only have it at rank 2. Can't pass that up.
    Heh. Bad economics. That slight, slight dip in damage isn't a loss; it's an extra six points of skills you don't need to waste on a 20 point per gun reduction (already a waste if you're only using one gun!), such as, oh isn't know, going into 10% weapon damage (ironically shoring up the difference in power! Hah!), or fitness, perhaps, or capping off another skill for more power.

    Since Turians are in no way prevented from having biotics, it seems to me that that's no explanation at all. If they wanted him to be a Vanguard, there's no reason they couldn't have made him one. Just give him Charge in place of Havoc Strike and replace Cryo Blast with something biotic. Heck, maybe they'd even leave him with Cryo Blast, given they gave the Asari Huntress biotics even though Infiltrators are supposed to be tech-based.
    I think you're just missing my point. Turians can be biotc, but why do all vanguards need to be biotic? The Turians have the technology to have vanguard powers in nonbiotics them they should use that advantage. It's also refreshing to have a power tree that's unique, like Krogan charge, or the strange change of pace of shadow from normal infiltrators.

    Those are called Hazard maps. They're old maps with some form of, well, hazard added to them. Some aren't so bad (Hazard Firebase Giant is just night time, which doesn't even reduce visibility much), others are excruciatingly awful (Hazard Firebase Glacier has a roaming Seeker Swarm that cannot be gotten rid of in any way and does immense damage if you enter its area, and is competing with Firebase London for my most hated map). But yes, they rotate weekly, with only two being active each week.

    Personally, I don't like them. I want to fight the enemies, not the terrain - and certainly not something that I just plain can't fight but can easily kill me, like that Seeker Swarm. So that's been the one real downside to the newest DLC for me. But the few that just try to affect visibility (White, Dagger, Giant) aren't that bad, at least.

    Zevox
    Glacier is often fine unless your team is rude. The swarm is smaller, slower and less damaging unless someone pumps it full of bullets, and it hurts enemies. I can go a full match without even really seeing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    For the Asari huntress, don't all Asari military use biotics?
    all Asari have biotics. Those who don't focus on them still have them, try just for have military grade amplifiers, or any real training. But every Asari has sufficient discipline to not break their own bones in a pinch.

  3. - Top - End - #1323
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Nearly picked up the second Disciple challenge; any suggestions for a good weapon to replace it on my asari vanguard? I'm thinking Wraith or Katana, but I could go for an assault rifle.
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    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
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    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Oh, no you CAN still shadow strike an atlas. It's just irregular.
    I know it's possible, but there's only so long I'm going to spam the SS button before I get frustrated and stick to the pistol.

    I tried the Disciple, and unfortunately - with no points in passive due to my build - I'm at 180% cooldown base, and 130% with the omniblade V. I briefly considered 6/5/5/5/5, but the "stay cloaked after striking" is too valuable to give up, and with that my SS will drop considerably - losing the rank 6 50% damage as well as the boosted damage vs. armor from Fitness 6. Too much loss for only 25% more melee damage and some shotgun blasts, I'd say.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Mm. I don't fin the Turian a weaker hybrid. On the contrary, not having a unified power theme made it one of the most versatile starters. They could be a caster, a gunner, sniper, artillery, support, etc., where most classes required one or two methods of play until you got the good guns.
    Now that tech classes can combo so easily I do see them as weaker. The piddly 30% damage boost from power armor is nothing compared to a human engineer chain-fire-exploding everything in a 100 mile radius while his drone draws fire, spits rockets and chases phantoms. And he can dodgeroll. The TSent's star has fallen pretty far in my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Incendiary Ammo and Disruptor Ammo were only powers in the technical sense - in practice they modified your gun, they didn't do the damage for you like Warp and Overload. And only one other class got Warp in ME2, the Adept, and they didn't get an anti-shield power. Throw isn't even relevant, as it was not very good in 2, what with protections blocking out powers entirely save for minor staggering effects. Because of that, defense-stripping powers were king in that game, with Warp as the best anti-armor/barrier power and Overload as the best anti-shield power. That they had those two abilities was thus a greater defining point for Sentinels than Tech Armor, even with how overpowered that was.
    But that's just one build - the Caster Sentinel, and even that relied on Power Armor to make the casting powers hit harder. The Assault Sentinel focused on the armor primarily (taking Energy Drain to leech for it) and thus overall, the armor was the defining factor for Sentinels in ME2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    My Human, Ex-Cerberus, and Slayer Vanguards all get 200% off an Eviscerator 10 + a Phalanx 10, thanks to their rank 6 class upgrade that reduces all weapons' weight by 20%. Disciple wouldn't make any difference there for me.

    The only other Vanguard I play much, the Krogan, I have using the Wraith instead, because his higher carry capacity and shotgun weight decrease put it at 194% even though I only have it at rank 2. Can't pass that up.
    Agreed here, I get pretty much the same cooldowns with Evi X and Disciple X on most classes. Disciple only wins out on classes with no points in passive.

    I use Piranha X on my Kroguard to great effect.

    @ Maps: I love Glacier, it's my favorite map of all. A single rocket can do a lot of damage there, and the small size makes escorts and disables easy. Combos hit harder there as well.

    I wonder what Hazard London and Hazard Hydra would look like?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #1325
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Now I started playing ME3 again for the first time just after having finished ME and ME2.
    I'm just two hours in and now have the Normandy for myself, and there are no 30 seconds passing in which I don't run into something that makes me want to shout at the developers at ****ing the game up.

    It could just have been the ME2 engine with new planets to visit and the new weapons loadout and upgrade system, and it would have been so much better. But except for the weapons, every single innovation and upgrade is making the game worse. It looks worse, it sounds worse, and it's dumbed down. And then it gets this Final Fantasy reject Kai Leng and those ****ing retarded dream sequences.

    I ****ing hate this game. I hate it, hate it, hate it!

    The only reason I started the game was because I was curious about playing Vanguard on Hardcore and combat so far is reasonably fun. But the game is just so goddamn awful! I'm not sure I'll play this game any further than Tuchanka, and right not I have my doubts about making it even that far.
    Damn it's an awful game!
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Definitely get to Tuchanka is all I have to say

    ...Wait, how did you face FaiLeng before doing that?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    FaiLeng. That's not a moniker I've heard before, but I approve.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I quite like Glacier on silver, which is what I usually play on. On gold I've had a lot more trouble with it, though it doesn't help that most gold games I've gotten on it have been against the Collectors or Reapers, and have featured a hacking objective wave with that hack zone near the drop-off point...
    I just feel so claustrophobic in Glacier. So cramped. It's usually not too bad, but extraction is nightmarish and any objective that similarly sticks you in one place soon starts feeling similar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    You've seen Firebase Dagger. Firebase Giant is night-time. Firebase White has a snow-storm blowing outside (doesn't affect the indoor section). Firebase Ghost features acid rain, which steadily damages your shields but does not fall in the buildings nor in a select outdoor area that has some scaffolding overhead. Firebase Glacier has the previously-mentioned Seeker Swarm.

    I think that's it. I haven't seen a hazard version of any of the DLC maps.
    It'd be cool seeing some Hazard versions of the DLC maps because the DLC maps just look so damn good. I'll settle for trying out the existing Hazards. With the exception of the Swarmed Glacier, they all sound pretty cool. I'll withhold judgement on the Hazard Glacier till I get a chance to try it, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Generally speaking, if you're not sitting in the defensible spots up at the top of the ramps on the left side of the map, you're doing it wrong. London is a very open map outside of that area, making it hard to avoid getting flanked if you stay down on the ground floor. Which becomes a big problem when you realize that all of the objectives other than the "kill four enemies" one will force you to do that. Still, at least the escort objectives have fairly short routes if you all stay with the drone. Hacking objectives are the worst there though - I'd seriously rather do a hack objective on Firebase Hydra than on London.

    Zevox
    Yeah, I kind of figured that out over the course of the game, but I still ended up having to come down quite a bit to try and pick everyone else up, though that was often a bad idea in the end and I think we ended up wiping altogether eventually. I certainly don't remember extracting. Kind of enjoyed the map itself though, for the most part.

  9. - Top - End - #1329
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Glacier's cramped nature is as much advantage as disadvantage though. Consider that every biotic explosion, every tech combo, every grenade and every rocket is likely hitting 4-5 enemies (on Gold) and you can clear matches extremely quickly compared to larger maps. And while hack missions can indeed suck there if you're unlucky, generally it only takes a single rocket to reverse a bad situation; in the meantime, this quibble is balanced by kill and escort missions being far easier.

    The N7 Fury is the queen of Glacier - Your combos hit multiple targets, your Field drains around corners (both healing you, and exposing hiding enemies), and you can teleport through the walls for instant escapes. (Though be warned - Banshees can follow you!)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Operation Privateer: allied goals are back

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    Operation: PRIVATEER (November 23rd-25th)

    Cerberus’s hit-and-run attacks in the Terminus Systems have tied down a disproportionate number of local fighting ships and operations. We can spare only a small, elite force to eliminate the enemy. This force has the secondary objective of analyzing and finding a weakness in Cerberus’s kinetic barrier technology, which is key to bringing down large-scale hardened barriers.

    Individual Goal: Earn 50,000 points versus any enemy with shields on any map, at any difficulty. Points are cumulative across matches. (Cerberus Centurion, Cerberus Engineer, Cerberus Engineer Turret, Cerberus Nemesis, Cerberus Atlas, Reaper Marauder, Geth Rocket Trooper, Geth Hunter, Geth Pyro, Geth Prime, Geth Prime Turret, Geth Prime Rocket Drone, Geth Bomber)

    Allied Goal: Complete 50,000 cumulative total extractions of Batarian, Vorcha, or Turian characters.

    Special Circumstance: None

    Individual Goal Success: All individual players awarded a Commendation Pack and Corsair banner

    Allied Goal Success: All players awarded a Victory Pack and the potential max capacity for Ops Survival Kit will be increased to 6.
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    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Analyzing shields? Good thing we saved all those engineers last weekend...

    A perfect time to test the tasty upgrades to my Vorcha Hunter.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Now I started playing ME3 again for the first time just after having finished ME and ME2.
    I'm just two hours in and now have the Normandy for myself, and there are no 30 seconds passing in which I don't run into something that makes me want to shout at the developers at ****ing the game up.

    It could just have been the ME2 engine with new planets to visit and the new weapons loadout and upgrade system, and it would have been so much better. But except for the weapons, every single innovation and upgrade is making the game worse. It looks worse, it sounds worse, and it's dumbed down. And then it gets this Final Fantasy reject Kai Leng and those ****ing retarded dream sequences.

    I ****ing hate this game. I hate it, hate it, hate it!

    The only reason I started the game was because I was curious about playing Vanguard on Hardcore and combat so far is reasonably fun. But the game is just so goddamn awful! I'm not sure I'll play this game any further than Tuchanka, and right not I have my doubts about making it even that far.
    Damn it's an awful game!
    My main problem with ME3, and I for the most part loved the game, was its ideas vs its execution in a number of places.

    -Idea: Reapers are HERE, you cannot delay their coming any further, you must now fight the force Sovereign threatened you with at the outset of your journey.
    -Execution: Reapers don't make sense as enemies on Mass Effect's combat engine, so their military presence has to be HUSKS EVERYWHERE even though it's not really clear why Reapers need or particularly WANT ground forces when all that's doing is wasting a portion of their harvest on an army that's actually vulnerable to guns. You get ONE boss fight where you're actually going up against a Reaper and not its finger-puppet army.

    -Idea: Commander "punch, laugh at, and rape/have consensual sex in the missionary position with the impossible" Shepard starts to crack under the pressure, and is haunted by those s/he can't save.
    -Execution: Immediately after each of the heartbreaking deaths of 50% of the characters I liked most in Mass Effect 2, I am forced to do a tedious "dream sequence" about a boy that didn't really register to me emotionally compared to the deaths of the squadmates that were willing to lay down their lives for Shepard when nobody else believed in him/her. It actively made me hate the small child we were supposed to feel sad about, and others have had similar complaints.

    -Idea: The contributions of every little person count towards the war, and it's up to Shepard to seek these out high and low.
    -Execution: The intuitive and enjoyable art of engaging people in an ACTUAL CONVERSATION is phased out for non-interactive eavesdropping, meaning you pick up quests while wandering around without even registering a portion of them as anything but background noise. NPCs crank up the obnoxious chain-of-deals and fetch-quests in the face of COSMIC ANNIHILATION instead of contributing without prompting from Shep. And to top it all off, the quest management system in your journal is so terrible keeping track of your quests is a major pain in the ass. Gathering non-storyline War Assets is one of the most boring parts of the game. Don't get me wrong, I loved eavesdropping on Friend-Zone Turian and his Quarian lady friend in 2, but in 3, that's practically how you interact with your FRICKING SQUADMATES!

    -Idea: Rather than simply prepping the Normandy itself to fly into uncertain territory and almost certain death, Shepard is now managing the military of the ENTIRE GALAXY and directing all possible resources towards the war effort. Exploration and diplomacy are rewarded as your armada grows to a force that might stand a chance!
    -Execution: You cannot stand a chance against the Reapers. You never could. Entire galaxy or a couple of scrounged leftovers from the non-humans, your army is going to get curb-stomped if this Hail Mary play with the Crucible goes south.

    -Idea: Choice has defined Commander Shepard's journey. What better way to end that journey than with a choice that will change the entire galaxy with a single decision?
    -Execution: The genocide vs brainwashing dilemma from Legion's loyalty mission in the last game is rehashed, stapled to the Reapers with a number of questionable justifications for their existence, and a copout third option is added if you did your homework. After complaints about how all three choices fail to give a satisfying end to the game, the consequences of each action are clarified in free DLC, but if you decide not to take any of them, EVERYONE DIES and the next cycle picks one anyway.

    -Idea: Given that Shepard's main rival since Saren died is a starship that could destroy his entire squad with one shot, a human rival is introduced to let Shepard go mano-a-mano with a boss enemy towards the end.
    -Execution: FaiLeng.

    I really think something that 3 needed was a Suicide Mission. A way to make all those war assets you scrounged up MATTER. Without it, your EMS is just...numbers. If your number was big enough, good-ish things happen. If it wasn't, everyone dies.
    Holy crap, I have a blog!

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDragonKing View Post
    I really think something that 3 needed was a Suicide Mission. A way to make all those war assets you scrounged up MATTER. Without it, your EMS is just...numbers. If your number was big enough, good-ish things happen. If it wasn't, everyone dies.
    This, so much this. My biggest complaint about the end, more than anything to do with the story, was that the final mission wasn't anything special. Mass Effect 2 had an awesome Final Mission, where your decisions in it and the rest of the game determined your success. Why couldn't we have more of that.

    Mass Effect 3 was in many ways the previous game only with a larger scale. In stead of building a totally awesome team for a crazy suicide mission you are building a totally awesome armada for an even crazier suicide mission. So give me the Suicide Mission from ME2 on a larger scale. I would have loved picking out assignments for my Krogan Ground Forces, or my Geth Fleet, or whatever else I might have picked up along the way. It would have been fantastic. Instead we just get a normal mission with more cut scenes and the annoying fight with Marauder Shields. Rannoch and Tuchanka were better than it by miles, even before we get into the fact that they were also way more satisfying on a story level. It was just so... mundane. Final levels shouldn't be mundane damn it! They should be crazy awesome like the Suicide Mission.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Heh. Bad economics. That slight, slight dip in damage isn't a loss; it's an extra six points of skills you don't need to waste on a 20 point per gun reduction (already a waste if you're only using one gun!), such as, oh isn't know, going into 10% weapon damage (ironically shoring up the difference in power! Hah!), or fitness, perhaps, or capping off another skill for more power.
    My build on all three of those is ignore one power (Shockwave, Lash, and Phase Disruptor respectively) and max out everything else. And I'll always take making weapons lighter over making them stronger, especially on a Vanguard. And as I said, I am using more than one gun - the Eviscerator and the Phalanx. The former as their main weapon, the latter for when an objective wave forces them to sit in one spot and shoot things from outside of shotgun range.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I think you're just missing my point. Turians can be biotc, but why do all vanguards need to be biotic?
    Because that was one of the main defining traits of the class. Again, at this point I've just accepted that the multiplayer developers have just abandoned the class system wholesale, as quite a few of the characters no longer resemble their class' supposed concept at all. I'm just saying they didn't have to do that - especially not to make a Turian Vanguard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I use Piranha X on my Kroguard to great effect.
    I haven't liked the Piranha when I've tried it, personally. Even with the smart choke, its shots have way to large of a spread for me. I never feel like I'm hitting much of anything, and I haven't noticed the insane damage output they're supposed to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I wonder what Hazard London and Hazard Hydra would look like?
    I hope we never find out, as I can only imagine they'd be horrifying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Yeah, I kind of figured that out over the course of the game, but I still ended up having to come down quite a bit to try and pick everyone else up, though that was often a bad idea in the end and I think we ended up wiping altogether eventually. I certainly don't remember extracting. Kind of enjoyed the map itself though, for the most part.
    Yeah, that becomes a big problem with that map - somehow, a lot of players never seem to figure out that they should stay up on top of those ramps. Especially on silver, but I've run into a few on gold too. Which definitely causes headaches for those smart enough to do so if they get themselves killed and leave you needing to decide whether to risk your life reviving them or try to finish things solo...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
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    Operation: PRIVATEER (November 23rd-25th)

    Cerberus’s hit-and-run attacks in the Terminus Systems have tied down a disproportionate number of local fighting ships and operations. We can spare only a small, elite force to eliminate the enemy. This force has the secondary objective of analyzing and finding a weakness in Cerberus’s kinetic barrier technology, which is key to bringing down large-scale hardened barriers.

    Individual Goal: Earn 50,000 points versus any enemy with shields on any map, at any difficulty. Points are cumulative across matches. (Cerberus Centurion, Cerberus Engineer, Cerberus Engineer Turret, Cerberus Nemesis, Cerberus Atlas, Reaper Marauder, Geth Rocket Trooper, Geth Hunter, Geth Pyro, Geth Prime, Geth Prime Turret, Geth Prime Rocket Drone, Geth Bomber)

    Allied Goal: Complete 50,000 cumulative total extractions of Batarian, Vorcha, or Turian characters.

    Special Circumstance: None

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    Well, that individual goal is possibly the easiest to date - no need to even go out of your way picking any specific class this time. Allied goal, probably perfectly doable, though it really depends on how many people are still playing the multiplayer at this point.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Well. vanguards need to be biotic because of Charge. It's their defining feature, and is biotic. I suppose you could design a tech-flavored charge, but that seems unnecessary.

    I mean, I guess Vanguard's role is some sort of heavy brawler, you don't really need charge, but it'd be strange.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I haven't liked the Piranha when I've tried it, personally. Even with the smart choke, its shots have way to large of a spread for me. I never feel like I'm hitting much of anything, and I haven't noticed the insane damage output they're supposed to have.
    I just use it point-blank, which is easy for Vans to get to, and dispense with the choke. It's great at chewing up armor (barrel + shredder.)
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Well. vanguards need to be biotic because of Charge. It's their defining feature, and is biotic.
    That's backwards, actually. Vanguards are biotic because the original basis for the class, starting in ME1, was that is a mix of biotic and combat abilities, as an in-between of the Soldier and Adept. ME2 was when they added Charge, partially because it synergized so well with the weapon that ME1 assigned them, the shotgun, and that's when it became specifically a close-combat-oriented class - but in addition to being a biotic/combat class, not as a replacement of it. Since then they've been defined by both, not just one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    I suppose you could design a tech-flavored charge, but that seems unnecessary.
    They have. The Turian Havoc Soldier's Havoc Strike ability is Charge without the shield restoration, using a jetpack instead of biotics.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    That's backwards, actually. Vanguards are biotic because the original basis for the class, starting in ME1, was that is a mix of biotic and combat abilities, as an in-between of the Soldier and Adept. ME2 was when they added Charge, partially because it synergized so well with the weapon that ME1 assigned them, the shotgun, and that's when it became specifically a close-combat-oriented class - but in addition to being a biotic/combat class, not as a replacement of it. Since then they've been defined by both, not just one.


    They have. The Turian Havoc Soldier's Havoc Strike ability is Charge without the shield restoration, using a jetpack instead of biotics.

    Zevox
    Ah, I haven't unlocked that one yet. Wish I had, it'd be nice for the weekend event.

    And I'm aware of the origins of the class breakdown, I was referring to the need for charge in the current incarnation of the class, which has become role-defining, and is biotic. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.

    My point was that biotics probably wouldn't be phased out of some Vanguards like what happened to Sentinels because charge is probably always going to be there.
    Last edited by Luzahn; 2012-11-21 at 07:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I know it's possible, but there's only so long I'm going to spam the SS button before I get frustrated and stick to the pistol.

    I tried the Disciple, and unfortunately - with no points in passive due to my build - I'm at 180% cooldown base, and 130% with the omniblade V.
    No, actually. Remember what Dhaevir said? It's like ULM, it's bugged. It says it drops it by 50 points but it doesn't. Unless you also equip a weapon with ultralight materials, the omniblade doesn't actually reduce your cooldown.

    Now that tech classes can combo so easily I do see them as weaker. The piddly 30% damage boost from power armor is nothing compared to a human engineer chain-fire-exploding everything in a 100 mile radius while his drone draws fire, spits rockets and chases phantoms. And he can dodgeroll. The TSent's star has fallen pretty far in my eyes.
    I find their strength in that they can fill a multitude of roles in a match based on what is needed, but that's apparently a rare acquired skill.

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    I've been using it since two days after release, actually. Only I used Fai-Ling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Well. vanguards need to be biotic because of Charge. It's their defining feature, and is biotic. I suppose you could design a tech-flavored charge, but that seems unnecessary.
    Tech charge exists, and no.
    In ME 1, the vanguard was a shotgun wizard. They had less power than a straight caster, but their guns made up for it. The difference between a vanguard and an infiltrator was their particular flavor of Gish – biotic was straight damage, close range and melee, while infiltrator was ranged acute damage and debuffing.

    In Me 2, the vanguard gained charge. They now had a power specifically geared for getting into poor blank range, shotguns for point blank damage, and I think they still had increased melee but not to the same leel as the ME 1 vanguard.

    In ME 3, they maintain their classification as close-range wizard. They can close the gap and strike hard (grenades work best point blank, as do swords and Nova and heavy melee, and stasis is a set up for detonation and thus a nova-analogue), they can blast enemies at a sufficient distance as to not have to get point blank when they don't need to, and benefit from a light load out.

    The tech vanguard has charge (havoc strike), nova (heavy melee), shield recovery an buffing (stimpack).

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post



    Tech charge exists, and no.
    In ME 1, the vanguard was a shotgun wizard. They had less power than a straight caster, but their guns made up for it. The difference between a vanguard and an infiltrator was their particular flavor of Gish – biotic was straight damage, close range and melee, while infiltrator was ranged acute damage and debuffing.

    In Me 2, the vanguard gained charge. They now had a power specifically geared for getting into poor blank range, shotguns for point blank damage, and I think they still had increased melee but not to the same leel as the ME 1 vanguard.

    In ME 3, they maintain their classification as close-range wizard. They can close the gap and strike hard (grenades work best point blank, as do swords and Nova and heavy melee, and stasis is a set up for detonation and thus a nova-analogue), they can blast enemies at a sufficient distance as to not have to get point blank when they don't need to, and benefit from a light load out.

    The tech vanguard has charge (havoc strike), nova (heavy melee), shield recovery an buffing (stimpack).
    Tried to clarify my point above, but wow, those Turians sound fun. I hope I manage to get one soon.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Tried to clarify my point above, but wow, those Turians sound fun. I hope I manage to get one soon.
    I know. Here, let me clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    .
    And I'm aware of the origins of the class breakdown, I was referring to the need for charge in the current incarnation of the class, which has become role-defining, and is biotic. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.
    The problem is with assuming charge must be biotic. I think this misses the entire point of charge as a power and mechanic; to separate vanguards from biotics.

    Think about it. The difference between an adept and a vanguard was that the vanguard A) had shotgun proficiency, B) had fewer powers, and C) had an improved melee attack. Both classes had access to pistol mastery, making perfect accuracy machine gunfire possible. Both classes had throw, warp, lift, making basic biotic field control possible. There was a slight difference, in that the vanguard could aim his shotgun (hahaha it's funny because accurate shotgun) to the adept's singularity and stasis. The difference in actual play was slight. The a guard gets a better close-range gun and better melee power and such, but that doesn't translate to anything more than allowing baguards to be sloppy and letting a Krogan get close so you can punch it.

    So come mass effect 2, they tried to more clearly delineate the classes. The vanguard got a power in line with it's name and concept, allowing it to get up close and personal, fast. The tip of the spear, the first strike, the shock trooper. They also modified weapons for such, giving the shotgun, the vanguard signature weapon, the ability to deal more damage at close ranges. The vanguard was now not just a lazy biotic, a gun crazy adept. He was now his own fully realized class with a purpose to exist. Mass effect three continues this trend.

    The vanguard is not "a biotic with a shotgun", it's a close-quarters combat expert with biotic supplementation (just like the infiltrator wasn't supposed to be a sniper-carrying engineer, he was supposed to be an infiltrator). That is what is important to a vanguard; close quarters combat and the means to take the fight to the enemy. If you follow this, you get the slayer, the battlemaster, the havoc, the human vanguard, even the Phoenix vanguard— rush ye sorry sonofabitch and destroy them.

    Thinking "A vanguard has to be biotic" misses the point entirely, just like thinking "Starwars is force powers and light saver fights" missed the point entirely in Starwars. It's a correlate but not causative; almost a coincidence. Think "Biotics = Vanguard" is why we have the Asari and Drell vanguards. Except the reason they picked Asari and drell and not, say, salarian and Turian is because the Asari and drell at least both have excellent CQC traits; the Drell martial arts, dodge an DR working rather well and the Asari heavy smash area attack both somewhat fulfilling the idea in letter, if not in spirit.

    biotic charge is only biotic because the ME1 vanguard was a biotic and that didn't need to change. But now that they are exploring every avenue of the Galaxy and Setting, they don't need to limit themselves to the Systems Alliance, to Shepard hirself. It's easy to misconstrue "Shepard, the singular example of human vanguards and a poster child for the alliance military must represent all an guards across time and space" but it's a faulty assumption.

    They aren't phasing out the classes or biotics or anything, and they aren't dispensing with the class system. They are using it property and no longer making stupid mistakes because "well, heard the vanguard is a biotic, and we don't need to actually look at the justification for the class or it's lore."

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    I know. Here, let me clarify.

    The problem is with assuming charge must be biotic. I think this misses the entire point of charge as a power and mechanic; to separate vanguards from biotics.

    Think about it. The difference between an adept and a vanguard was that the vanguard A) had shotgun proficiency, B) had fewer powers, and C) had an improved melee attack. Both classes had access to pistol mastery, making perfect accuracy machine gunfire possible. Both classes had throw, warp, lift, making basic biotic field control possible. There was a slight difference, in that the vanguard could aim his shotgun (hahaha it's funny because accurate shotgun) to the adept's singularity and stasis. The difference in actual play was slight. The a guard gets a better close-range gun and better melee power and such, but that doesn't translate to anything more than allowing baguards to be sloppy and letting a Krogan get close so you can punch it.

    So come mass effect 2, they tried to more clearly delineate the classes. The vanguard got a power in line with it's name and concept, allowing it to get up close and personal, fast. The tip of the spear, the first strike, the shock trooper. They also modified weapons for such, giving the shotgun, the vanguard signature weapon, the ability to deal more damage at close ranges. The vanguard was now not just a lazy biotic, a gun crazy adept. He was now his own fully realized class with a purpose to exist. Mass effect three continues this trend.

    The vanguard is not "a biotic with a shotgun", it's a close-quarters combat expert with biotic supplementation (just like the infiltrator wasn't supposed to be a sniper-carrying engineer, he was supposed to be an infiltrator). That is what is important to a vanguard; close quarters combat and the means to take the fight to the enemy. If you follow this, you get the slayer, the battlemaster, the havoc, the human vanguard, even the Phoenix vanguard— rush ye sorry sonofabitch and destroy them.

    Thinking "A vanguard has to be biotic" misses the point entirely, just like thinking "Starwars is force powers and light saver fights" missed the point entirely in Starwars. It's a correlate but not causative; almost a coincidence. Think "Biotics = Vanguard" is why we have the Asari and Drell vanguards. Except the reason they picked Asari and drell and not, say, salarian and Turian is because the Asari and drell at least both have excellent CQC traits; the Drell martial arts, dodge an DR working rather well and the Asari heavy smash area attack both somewhat fulfilling the idea in letter, if not in spirit.

    biotic charge is only biotic because the ME1 vanguard was a biotic and that didn't need to change. But now that they are exploring every avenue of the Galaxy and Setting, they don't need to limit themselves to the Systems Alliance, to Shepard hirself. It's easy to misconstrue "Shepard, the singular example of human vanguards and a poster child for the alliance military must represent all an guards across time and space" but it's a faulty assumption.

    They aren't phasing out the classes or biotics or anything, and they aren't dispensing with the class system. They are using it property and no longer making stupid mistakes because "well, heard the vanguard is a biotic, and we don't need to actually look at the justification for the class or it's lore."
    Very good argument here. I do like that they're now putting the emphasis on class role rather than class flavor, I suppose I just liked that nice thematic pattern to the classes we had had in one.

    The problem we're seeing now I think is that they do still seem to use class flavor to assign the roles as well. From a balance standpoint functional roles are a cleaner system, but the old flavor bits are still around.

    Back in Mass Effect, a vanguard did "have to be biotic," and I suppose I'm a bit stuck in that thinking. I know charge doesn't have to be biotic, I was just assuming that it would be pointless to modify that bit as in most cases it wouldn't do anything for the flavor of the vanguard class, like the various tech armor clones do. Unless we want Geth vanguards or something.
    Last edited by Luzahn; 2012-11-22 at 01:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Very good argument here. I do like that they're now putting the emphasis on class role rather than class flavor, I suppose I just liked that nice thematic pattern to the classes we had had in one.

    The problem we're seeing now I think is that they do still seem to use class flavor to assign the roles as well. From a balance standpoint functional roles are a cleaner system, but the old flavor bits are still around.

    Back in Mass Effect, a vanguard did "have to be biotic," and I suppose I'm a bit stuck in that thinking. I know charge doesn't have to be biotic, I was just assuming that it would be pointless to modify that bit as in most cases it wouldn't do anything for the flavor of the vanguard class, like the various tech armor clones do. Unless we want Geth vanguards or something.
    Well, that's true. They did have to be biotic. This makes sense on a feedback level, where the game influences the setting and the setting infleunces the game. They went through pains to make sure the split classes had their own unique flavor. The infiltrator they succeeded on; having a sniper as your best gun made you a sniper. The sentinel and the vanguard didn't. So they rebooted them, redefining their role more effectively; vanguards got charge and point-blank damage, sentinels got Armor and a thematic gun set (anti armor and anti barrier), and even infiltrators got their cloak (while soldier, adept and engineer continued thee genesis to a more unique class delineation).

    My point being that what I take away from the mass effect 1 -> mass effect 2 change isn't that they changed their minds, so much as they realize they did a bad job and corrected it, especially since the seeds were there for the vanguard (shotguns, melee, etc.). As such, mass effect 1 wanted the vanguard to be close quarters and frakked it up. It's even in their name, which I took to an acknowledgement of what the kit is supposed to do as opposed to a formal title; the universe itself doesn't make distinctions within biotics, or within soldiery, as a vanguard, adept and sentinel are all just biotics as the infiltrator is a soldier. So while the the biotic vanguard is a vanguard, no all vanguards are biotic vanguards, I guess.

    Thinking about it though, I'm actually missing your point. I liked the nice, unified presentation too, but I think they would have done better to acknowledge this earlier. Putting the havoc in the vanguard slot for instance. Having every member of a "class" have a unified front in the beginning that was tangible was a mistake. It was useful, game play wise, but messes with established notions. We've had arguments about it a lot, based on how set in stone things like "soldier, weapons guy with no powers" and "infiltrator, sniper with invisibility" are. Not letting that settle into a soft canon in the first place would have been good.


    And yeah, we've wanted a geth "adept" for a while now. Remember, the difference between a lot of biotics and tech is whether it is synthetically or organically created, and that's made blurry by amps being a requirement. Barriers are all kinetic mass effect fields. Tech armor is a Warp held between two shield layers. Incinerate is a volatile explosive gas mix held together in a temporary mass effect field for launch. Havoc strike would have to reduce a turian's mass in order to launch him at that speed with such little fuel.

    I think a geth adept would be neat. They would have a specialized platform for use of mass effect mini cores, and probably have biotic sphere and a liquid metal gauss cannon for their main powers. Maybe drop hunter mode? I can see ye unit with maybe annihilation field, too.

    Perhaps biotic sphere, annihilation field and lift grenades? Only a variant of the sphere that the platform emenates, like
    He becomes a shield emplacement.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    I think the next step for class diversity would be to have a Vanguard without Charge, but I'm not sure if they'll ever do that.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    While you're right in saying that they probably won't do it, I think it'd be very easy to design such a class - just go back to the ME1 roots.

    Pick 3 powers that are short ranged - Shockwave, Annihilation Field and a 'Biotic Barrier' of some sort, just as a wide open example - and a decent affinity for shotguns.

    Hey Presto! Wizard with a Shotgun, again, that doesn't necessarily tread on the toes of the Adept classes.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    This makes me wonder what they'll do with classes in Mass Effect 4 when it comes out. I think they ought to try something new. They had to stick to the same model in the three games because of Shepard, but now they can experiment.

    An idea I had would be to divorce roles and power sources. There would be several roles and each of them could be combat, biotic, tech or a combination. Roles would be, say, Assault (Soldiers & Vanguards), Power-user (Adepts, Engineers, ME1 Sentinels), Defense (ME2 & ME3 Sentinels, perhaps Krogan Shaman) and Operative (Infiltrators). This way there'd be a lot of freedom in creating characters. And yes, I do realize it strongly resembles 4th edition D&D. I realized it a while after it had popped into my head.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Now, bear in mind I know pretty much nothing about half the classes available on account of there being so many fancy new ones that I haven't unlocked*, but I'm going to wade in on this Vanguard thing with my 2cents.

    Vanguards are Biotic. I see no problem at all with having a Soldier who plays like a vanguard. He goes in the Soldier slot because he is not biotic.

    I don't see a problem here.

    I'd like a Vanguard or two without Charge, mind, but mostly because I'm still too traumatised to try Vanguards again since the old days of the Vanguard becoming unstuck in time and space. (I'm sure I've heard someone say they fixed this, but, eh, trauma). But if it's not Biotic, it's just not a vanguard to me.

    Similarly, an Adept who actually uses Tech powers exclusively? Surely that would go in the Engineer slot. It's what it's for. I'm all for giving different spins to the structure, and melee happy soldiers with electro-whips or whatever your new-fangled guys do, that's all great. But I'm still down with the general descriptive structure we've had since the first game, mixing Combat/Biotic/Tech.

    Hell, it might be interesting to see a long-range specialised Vanguard. Perhaps instead of Charge he'd have a point to point teleport version, allowing him to zip around the map setting up flanking manouvers, with a big biotic get-the-fudge-outa-here panic button attack for when things get into melee range, or something.

    *I've mostly been unlocking guns. Assault rifles. Ones I don't want to use. Heh. Well, Phaeston and GPR will see me through. Got to unlock another class eventually.
    Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-11-22 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Yeah, Vanguards kind of break time and space. Just a part of the job.

    It lets me be a physical incarnation of fury though, so I don't mind.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Well, it was to the point back when I stopped playing them, that I would never, ever extract because short of playing on Bronze, it would happen sooner or later and then I'd be letting my team down.

    Bad Feels.

    Oh god, the facepunching up to then, though.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    While you're right in saying that they probably won't do it, I think it'd be very easy to design such a class - just go back to the ME1 roots.

    Pick 3 powers that are short ranged - Shockwave, Annihilation Field and a 'Biotic Barrier' of some sort, just as a wide open example - and a decent affinity for shotguns.

    Hey Presto! Wizard with a Shotgun, again, that doesn't necessarily tread on the toes of the Adept classes.
    My contention is that the ME 1 vanguard was a failed experiment. Going back to it's roots would actually defeat the purpose of making it meaningfully Not An Adept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Now, bear in mind I know pretty much nothing about half the classes available on account of there being so many fancy new ones that I haven't unlocked*, but I'm going to wade in on this Vanguard thing with my 2cents.

    Vanguards are Biotic. I see no problem at all with having a Soldier who plays like a vanguard. He goes in the Soldier slot because he is not biotic.

    I don't see a problem here.
    EDIT: as you've put it, I don't either. But it doesn't stop there, an goes Ito implied roles and functions. The havoc fails at the soldier "role" o weapons and few if any powers, because his playstyle requires light weapons and high cool down. it's like a sex-gender discussion, and you have to be mindful of all the different systems which use "class" an "role", and keep them separate. That's why I started with explaining why I came to the conclusions I did, so we could all use the same definitions (or a least argue them effectively).

    I'd like a Vanguard or two without Charge, mind, but mostly because I'm still too traumatised to try Vanguards again since the old days of the Vanguard becoming unstuck in time and space. (I'm sure I've heard someone say they fixed this, but, eh, trauma). But if it's not Biotic, it's just not a vanguard to me.

    Similarly, an Adept who actually uses Tech powers exclusively? Surely that would go in the Engineer slot. It's what it's for. I'm all for giving different spins to the structure, and melee happy soldiers with electro-whips or whatever your new-fangled guys do, that's all great. But I'm still down with the general descriptive structure we've had since the first game, mixing Combat/Biotic/Tech.

    Hell, it might be interesting to see a long-range specialised Vanguard. Perhaps instead of Charge he'd have a point to point teleport version, allowing him to zip around the map setting up flanking manouvers, with a big biotic get-the-fudge-outa-here panic button attack for when things get into melee range, or something.

    *I've mostly been unlocking guns. Assault rifles. Ones I don't want to use. Heh. Well, Phaeston and GPR will see me through. Got to unlock another class eventually.
    I don't want an engineer, though. I want a nonorganic adept. Warp, throw, etc., and I don't think it's necessary to say they are tech because they are machine generated when they are directly emanating from the character's nervous system (which is how we define biotics, otherwise their amps mess with the organic/synthetic divide). I want a geth biotic. Or a marauder, that would suffice I suppose.

    And the Slayer N7 vanguard actually is a ranged vanguard; they have charge, but they also have Phase Disruptor (concentrate your shield into your hand, and shoot lazer beams), and biotic slash (wuxia space ninja psychic magic WAAAAAAVE! *beam noise*) which are it's primary offense modes. Except for when things get close and you use your teleportation-style backwards ninja-to technique to cut heads off fools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Well, it was to the point back when I stopped playing them, that I would never, ever extract because short of playing on Bronze, it would happen sooner or later and then I'd be letting my team down.

    Bad Feels.

    Oh god, the facepunching up to then, though.
    The trick is that you don't use charge if you're dead, and you don't vault cover during anything vaguely resembling a loading sequence (usually between waves). It can still happen, but it's rare, and only the Krogan Battlemaster really has to worry about it on account of having a noticeably slower charge power.

    Seriously, I played a human vanguard after him, and was unable to control myself because by the time I realized I ha already charged, I was getting killed and my brain reacted to the signals by sending spaz-impulses to my hands.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-22 at 02:26 PM.

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