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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    The problem is, Charge is what I used to not be dead. So it boiled down to, one network hiccup in a moderately tight spot and I was dead and glitched before I'd even stopped moving. With broadband round here being what it is? Once per match minimum, like clockwork.

    And I don't really see roles as being important to the classes themselves as such. Kind of, All Vanguards should be Biotic, Most Vanguards should be charging melee nutcases. Difference in emphasis. There's room for nontraditional roles where there isn't for basic powersource.

    Also, Havoc seems to me to have at least two combat powers (jetpack charge and stim-packs). Arguably Cryo Blast is a tech power, unless it's specifically fluffed as a cryo-blast-launcher or something (no fluff on the wiki), but 2/3+ combat is close enough to count as a soldier for me.

    At a basic level, I think it boils down to the idea that you contend that the ME1 Vanguard was a failure in some way. I simply do not agree with this basic assumption, so of course my conclusion will differ.

    As for Geth Adepts, it's simply a case of there not being any (as far as I know). Some races simply do not excell at all possible roles. Some lack the qualifications to even try.
    No Geth Adepts* for you, Siuis.


    *Ending Related
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    If the canon ending for the next game turns out to be green, all bets are off, of course.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post

    *Ending Related
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    If the canon ending for the next game turns out to be green, all bets are off, of course.
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    If the canon ending for the next game turns out to be green, I know of several posters here who just might abandon ship.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
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    If the canon ending for the next game turns out to be green, I know of several posters here who just might abandon ship.
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    I am fully expecting them to blow themselves into what was already a very deep crater. I just pray that they learned some lessons. As far as I can tell, they're keeping Casey Hudson away from this one, so that's a start.
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    Fortunately, a Monk 1/Warblade 19 uses Iron Heart Surge to end the Monk character class, and the day is saved.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Woot! I unlocked the N7 Fury! I'm too tired to try it out tonight, but I finally unlocked it!

    Gives me all of the Earth classes unlocked now. Which actually leaves me unsure what DLC to focus on now. Earth still has a rare weapon (Acolyte) that I want more ranks in, a couple of gears I could use more in, and the rare mods - though truth be told I'm mostly just looking for the SMG High-Velocity Barrel and more ranks in Pistol ULM there. Retaliation has the remaining classes I most want (Asari Valkyrie, Vorcha Hunter), but the only weapon from it that I care for is ultra-rare, and I have enough ranks in the only gear it has that I care about (Medi-Gel Transmitter at 3). Rebellion has one class I don't have but might try (Vorcha Soldier), one weapon I'd like to use if I could get it much lighter and more effective on armor (Reagar Carbine), and most of the gear I want (especially the Grenade Capacity gear). So... yeah, not sure which to go for, honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    EDIT: as you've put it, I don't either. But it doesn't stop there, an goes Ito implied roles and functions. The havoc fails at the soldier "role" o weapons and few if any powers, because his playstyle requires light weapons and high cool down. it's like a sex-gender discussion, and you have to be mindful of all the different systems which use "class" an "role", and keep them separate. That's why I started with explaining why I came to the conclusions I did, so we could all use the same definitions (or a least argue them effectively).
    But what is the purpose of a class if not to assign the character a role? Think of any typical class system, and that seems to be precisely its purpose. In fantasy games from Final Fantasy to D&D you get Fighters who act as front-line tanks with powerful melee abilities; Rogues who trade some phsyical prowess for more mobility, dodge rate, and some special skills; dedicated healers in a support role (Cleric, White Mage, etc); mages as glass-canon blasters with some support abilities; jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none classes (Bard, Red Mage, etc), so on and so forth. Sometimes you have some flexibility within the class (i.e. Dragon Age Rogues choosing between two-weapon fighting and archery) but the class still defines their role to a greater degree than their other selections (i.e. those same Rogues are still glass cannons either way - if you want to play something durable, you play a Warrior instead).

    If we separate "class" from "role," what purpose does "class" serve as a concept anymore?

    Zevox
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Woot! I unlocked the N7 Fury! I'm too tired to try it out tonight, but I finally unlocked it!

    Gives me all of the Earth classes unlocked now. Which actually leaves me unsure what DLC to focus on now. Earth still has a rare weapon (Acolyte) that I want more ranks in, a couple of gears I could use more in, and the rare mods - though truth be told I'm mostly just looking for the SMG High-Velocity Barrel and more ranks in Pistol ULM there. Retaliation has the remaining classes I most want (Asari Valkyrie, Vorcha Hunter), but the only weapon from it that I care for is ultra-rare, and I have enough ranks in the only gear it has that I care about (Medi-Gel Transmitter at 3). Rebellion has one class I don't have but might try (Vorcha Soldier), one weapon I'd like to use if I could get it much lighter and more effective on armor (Reagar Carbine), and most of the gear I want (especially the Grenade Capacity gear). So... yeah, not sure which to go for, honestly.
    The Reegar does actually get better against armor; it's speed makes up for the relatively low damage and even more so if you're willing to add the shredder mod or the high velocity barrel.

    But what is the purpose of a class if not to assign the character a role? Think of any typical class system, and that seems to be precisely its purpose. In fantasy games from Final Fantasy to D&D you get Fighters who act as front-line tanks with powerful melee abilities; Rogues who trade some phsyical prowess for more mobility, dodge rate, and some special skills; dedicated healers in a support role (Cleric, White Mage, etc); mages as glass-canon blasters with some support abilities; jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none classes (Bard, Red Mage, etc), so on and so forth. Sometimes you have some flexibility within the class (i.e. Dragon Age Rogues choosing between two-weapon fighting and archery) but the class still defines their role to a greater degree than their other selections (i.e. those same Rogues are still glass cannons either way - if you want to play something durable, you play a Warrior instead).

    If we separate "class" from "role," what purpose does "class" serve as a concept anymore?

    Zevox
    Starting template.

    Working from "combat, biotic, tech" is fine.
    Working from combat roles alone is fine.
    Working from class names is fine.

    Confusing one for the other is where I get malky.

    The classes are starting points related to their building blocks; biotic, tech, mixture. But that actually doesn't tell you much. A vanguard isn't really definable as a combat biotic – some are pure biotic, some are almost pure combat, the battle master nd brawler may as well be tech... Infiltrator as well. They are theoretically soldiers backed up by tech advantage. But hell, cloaking isn't exactly a tech power. And it's one the engineer and adept share.

    The gestalts were always somewhat shoe-horned. So while class and role both sort of go together with each other, because of preconceptions. A soldier is sort of obvious. Adept hearkens to magery and similar, which works with other notions. Engineers have been a non-healing buff/debuff chassis for some time now, their roles being identical to saboteurs. But the coinciding of class role and name is a lucky stroke.

    The vanguard has always been intended as a close combat specialist. They got melee boost, close range damage boost, the less damaging and more inhibiting biotics, and eventually a close-the-gap power. That it's biotic is a happy accident of neat packaging. It could just as easily have worked with switche bases, having cloak being a stasis/warp field effect and the charge being a rocket boost. The sentinel is defined as much by lacking combat as much as by having both castin options (which work like debuff and control, either of which an be switched). The vanguard is close quarters, and biotics are just sort of what that concept was saddled with.

    Biotic and tech and all are important, and class role is important, but the two are separate. D&D has undergone the same evolution. A class is an archetype starting point. Close quarters is an archetype. Biotic is not an archetype, it one of the tools you can use to achieve it. Weapons aren't a fighter, and not all fighters use weapons, nor do they all use the same classification of weapons.

  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    What's a good class to use the Scorpion with? I just got it to V, and I could use it for Commando Mastery.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    What's a good class to use the Scorpion with? I just got it to V, and I could use it for Commando Mastery.
    Any class, it's a very powerful, versatile gun with a lot of leeway. ULM means you can drop it on a caster at aroun 200% with a nice back up for powers. Drop a heavy barrel and thermal capacity on it and you've got an artillery piece fot for any heavy weapons unit. The only gun that trumps it is the arc pistol, and only on the Merc. It's a specifically useful in all situations gun.


    The arc pistol is actually pretty slick I've found. It's incredible for acute damage output. Cloak, charge, and drop a massive shot into enemy head or torso and run. I love it. Especially with its capacity and speed of fire without charge, and explosive rounds.

    Oh, and ammo. Incendiary ammo deals 50 damage, period, at level 3 per shot. This is in addition to the whatever percent damage boost. So you guys were right, and you can generate rolling stacks of 50 damage pretty fast.


    Also, I was able to get a friend to join a solo silver run. That was some slick shooting! I'm not often impressed because I am a jaded old broodmare, but the sheer economy and precision displayed was impressive. I've become so slap-dash in my execution. It is an inspiration to see good old fashioned economy in action.

  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Well, tried out the Fury today. When things work, I think it's my favorite Adept since the Asari - her combination of abilities is just plain a lot of fun. I am having some trouble making things work, though. Trying to get close for Annihilation Field -> Throw combos is getting me killed more often than not, even with Drain on AF. The radius on AF is just too small I think - I need to be close enough that enemies with instant-kills could use them on me for it to take effect. And worse, if I back away, the priming effect from AF goes away.

    I've had much more success sticking back and using Dark Channel -> Throw and pistol shots as my default attacks, and using AF only when enemies manage to get close. Dark Channel jumping between enemies even after a combo makes it great for clearing groups of weaker enemies: Dark Channel -> Throw, find next enemy it jumped to, Throw, repeat until group is dead or new Dark Channel is needed. Also, I'm almost coming to think that AF's detonation effect is more useful than the primary effect, as it seems to have a somewhat larger AoE and does good damage.

    On the very bright side, the Fury seems able to handle Phantoms easily. Phantoms don't seem to activate their anti-power shield in response to Dark Channel or Annihilation Field, so doing Dark Channel -> AF detonation kills them nice and easy.

    A question - does the Drain effect on AF apply to its detonation, or only to the main field effect? I wasn't able to determine that from my games today.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    The Reegar does actually get better against armor; it's speed makes up for the relatively low damage and even more so if you're willing to add the shredder mod or the high velocity barrel.
    I did try it with the Shredder mod once, and it didn't seem to help much, but that may be because I only had the mod at rank 2 at the time. I intend to try again once it reaches rank 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Starting template.

    Working from "combat, biotic, tech" is fine.
    Working from combat roles alone is fine.
    Working from class names is fine.

    Confusing one for the other is where I get malky.
    Yet how can you not? What you're suggesting here is basically that different sets of classes are defined totally differently. Where Soldiers, Adepts, and Engineers are defined by the type of powers they use (combat, biotic, tech), Vanguards and Infiltrators are defined instead by their role. (I honestly have no clue where Sentinels fit into this theory you're suggesting, as I cannot see any common thread to that class anymore based on the multiplayer Sentinels.) That's inherently confusing, and poor design if you ask me.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    A question - does the Drain effect on AF apply to its detonation, or only to the main field effect? I wasn't able to determine that from my games today.
    Drain applies to all damage taken by a target in range of your annihilation field. So if a teammate shoots a shielded enemy inside your field, you get barriers for that.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    Drain applies to all damage taken by a target in range of your annihilation field. So if a teammate shoots a shielded enemy inside your field, you get barriers for that.
    Okay, but that wasn't really what I asked. I mean will detonating my AF drain shields damaged by the detonation, or does that only happen when using the passive version?

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Okay, but that wasn't really what I asked. I mean will detonating my AF drain shields damaged by the detonation, or does that only happen when using the passive version?

    Zevox
    As long as they're under the DoT effect, which they should be if they're in range of the detonation.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    As long as they're under the DoT effect, which they should be if they're in range of the detonation.
    The detonation definitely has a larger AoE than the DoT effect, so that won't necessarily be the case. Good to know, however, thank you.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Well, tried out the Fury today. When things work, I think it's my favorite Adept since the Asari - her combination of abilities is just plain a lot of fun. I am having some trouble making things work, though. Trying to get close for Annihilation Field -> Throw combos is getting me killed more often than not, even with Drain on AF. The radius on AF is just too small I think - I need to be close enough that enemies with instant-kills could use them on me for it to take effect. And worse, if I back away, the priming effect from AF goes away.
    The radius increase on detonations does noticably increase the primin distance as well. And if you're relying on detonations, you can almost skip the passive entirely; it doesn't increase your output significantly at all, whereas defensive fitness does increase your survivability.

    On the very bright side, the Fury seems able to handle Phantoms easily. Phantoms don't seem to activate their anti-power shield in response to Dark Channel or Annihilation Field, so doing Dark Channel -> AF detonation kills them nice and easy.
    Phantoms cannot raise their barrier against instant execution techniques. So if you surprise one with reave, overload or energy stain they will get hit by it. Some will put up the barrier anyway waiting for the next power, but then you just shoot them in the face.

    A question - does the Drain effect on AF apply to its detonation, or only to the main field effect? I wasn't able to determine that from my games today.
    Hmm. Gonna go with Dhaever and say that if AF detonates itself, you get barrier from it. However, if the enemy is close enough to be hit by the detonation but was not within the field, you do not gain barrier. It specifies that theyust be within the field and take damage to their barrier/shield, not that this power recharges barriers hen it hits other barriers.

    I did try it with the Shredder mod once, and it didn't seem to help much, but that may be because I only had the mod at rank 2 at the time. I intend to try again once it reaches rank 5.
    I use the high velocity barrel, which gives me both a damage boot and a armor reduction, so it's much more pronounced. Remember, on silver the difference between shredder mod V and no mod is only 22 damage... If the gun does that much per round. With just a shredder mod it becomes about as strong against armor as the geth SMG. Against a dragoon you'll be fine. Against an atlas you shouldn't be relying on it.

    Yet how can you not? What you're suggesting here is basically that different sets of classes are defined totally differently. Where Soldiers, Adepts, and Engineers are defined by the type of powers they use (combat, biotic, tech), Vanguards and Infiltrators are defined instead by their role. (I honestly have no clue where Sentinels fit into this theory you're suggesting, as I cannot see any common thread to that class anymore based on the multiplayer Sentinels.) That's inherently confusing, and poor design if you ask me.

    Zevox
    Classes can be defined multiple ways. My point is that the current system is poorly understood as a mash-up of two working systems, and the tension between these two different methods is what is causing such anomalies as the drell vanguard. I'm not saying use every system, I'm saying you're already using too many and infuse parts of one as bein parts of the other. They have taken steps to correct this over time; it's your house whether you think they are messing up the old system or finally implementing what they have bumblingly gone for the entire time.

    There is also a caveat. Mass effect one is about the mass effect universe, here's mass effect two and three are collectively "The ballad of Shepard". Mass Effect 1 required a simulationist feel. If biotic nodules of eezo in the CNS could do things along a certain line, then everyone with those eezo modules had access to basically the same amount of effects. In this, the vanguard really was just a biotic who focused on combat more than straight biotic mastery. They had no access to the most intricate biotic powers (such as increasing the density of spacetime to freeze an opponent in time for a short while), but they did I've fruits from their laboratory in combat arts; more weapon proficiency and a knack for supplementing close quarters combat with biotic effects.

    In mass effect 2/3, it's more a game to tell a specific story. It's required that the classes be meaningfully different. A vanguard couldn't just be a less optimized adept, because that messes with game balance. And so in these two games, the separate division of class function rather than class building block is more germane.

    I feel it's perfectly acceptable to view ME1, and ME2/3 as separate universes. Separate games in the same EU; one is a realistic RPG, the other is a futuristic shoot-em-up. They require different approaches, but what's right (or wrong) for one cannot hold for the other.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Also, I was able to get a friend to join a solo silver run. That was some slick shooting! I'm not often impressed because I am a jaded old broodmare, but the sheer economy and precision displayed was impressive. I've become so slap-dash in my execution. It is an inspiration to see good old fashioned economy in action.
    I'm going to assume you're talking about our game earlier. You exaggerate wildly of course, but we did alright.
    There's certainly not much messing around needed with the Turian Ghost though. It almost plays itself. Cloak before shooting, chain overload to stun pretty much whatever you want dead, shoot it as it gibbers. Rinse, repeat, jetpack punch for giggles and the vain hope of 20 seconds of bonus damage. On the rare occaisions when being invisible almost at will isn't enough, there's stimpacks for instant sheild refill.

    Hell, I don't feel the lack of a second gun. With Phaeston finally at X and a fully upgraded piercing mod, pretty much doesn't matter what you're shooting at, especially after the various damage bonuses passive and otherwise from the class.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    I dunno man. I plate lat night with a bloke usin the same set up, and it took him forever and a week to finish off those brutes. You clocked an atlas before I could mosey the twelve meters to shoot at it. So your passive skill choice mus be excellent, to generate such a disparity between two different ghost phaeston users.

    And uh, I figured I should be cautious with saying you're on my system on account of preserving your anonymity. >_<

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Well, I did take all of the damage boosting things basically, then Armour Piercing mod on the phaeston. Sheild goes quickly enough with Overload that you basically only have to worry about Armour anyway.
    Strangely, I find Geth Primes seem to take a lot longer. Probably just feels that way, due to them spawning all those other little distractions rather than just lumbering helpfully towards you.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Just finished Reaper Mastery. Suck it, Starbrat. Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Gonna go with Dhaever and say that if AF detonates itself, you get barrier from it.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    The radius increase on detonations does noticably increase the primin distance as well.
    It'd have to be a fairly substantial one to make me reevaluate whether I want to use that tactic. Getting in that close as my primary tactic just is not working out for me, even having only tried her on silver so far. I'm coming to suspect that I really need Charge to pull off fighting that close.

    Given the tactic I am working with and having more success with, I'm actually considering respecing AF to Damage/Speed/Damage or Radius/Speed/Damage, since I'm using it mostly for its detonation effect, not for its damage-over-time aura, and thus am not getting much out of Damage Taken or Drain.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Phantoms cannot raise their barrier against instant execution techniques. So if you surprise one with reave, overload or energy stain they will get hit by it. Some will put up the barrier anyway waiting for the next power, but then you just shoot them in the face.
    Odd - I'd swear I've seen them put their barrier up against Overload before and stop it. Same for Energy Drain, though recently I've noticed they can't seem to if it's detonating a Cryo Burst from my Paladin.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    With just a shredder mod it becomes about as strong against armor as the geth SMG.
    Unless you mean the Geth SMG with the piercing mod, that is not terribly impressive sounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Classes can be defined multiple ways. My point is that the current system is poorly understood as a mash-up of two working systems, and the tension between these two different methods is what is causing such anomalies as the drell vanguard. I'm not saying use every system, I'm saying you're already using too many and infuse parts of one as bein parts of the other. They have taken steps to correct this over time; it's your house whether you think they are messing up the old system or finally implementing what they have bumblingly gone for the entire time.
    Whatever they're doing, it's definitely bumbling. The inability to determine a pattern to their treatment of the Sentinel class is proof enough of that.

    Also, I disagree quite thoroughly with what you said after that, but trying to argue that topic would definitely take more time and energy than I'm willing to put into it, so I'm afraid we'll preemptively have to agree to disagree there.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    I've had some fair success with the Fury using a 6/6/6/5/3 build, going damage/speed/drain on Annihilation Field. Add an Acolyte with extended barrel/melee stunner and Commando Package and get on a map where you can make good use of the Fury's teleportation. Target enemies around corners, jump in with a heavy melee to stun and prime, throw, acolyte, dodge away.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    It'd have to be a fairly substantial one to make me reevaluate whether I want to use that tactic. Getting in that close as my primary tactic just is not working out for me, even having only tried her on silver so far. I'm coming to suspect that I really need Charge to pull off fighting that close.

    Given the tactic I am working with and having more success with, I'm actually considering respecing AF to Damage/Speed/Damage or Radius/Speed/Damage, since I'm using it mostly for its detonation effect, not for its damage-over-time aura, and thus am not getting much out of Damage Taken or Drain.
    That's legit. I had the same trouble at first, it only started working when I was able to fold melee into it and convince myself N7 Fury training wasn't mandatory. And she still my most respec'd class. Sticking to dark channel and throw is good.

    Odd - I'd swear I've seen them put their barrier up against Overload before and stop it. Same for Energy Drain, though recently I've noticed they can't seem to if it's detonating a Cryo Burst from my Paladin.
    They put up the barrier, but not in time. They also how the barrier effect with no barrier sometimes.

    Unless you mean the Geth SMG with the piercing mod, that is not terribly impressive sounding.
    Yes, sorry. Poor editing on my part. I can't check the numbers, but from memory serves the Reegar ends up doing like, 20 to 30 damage a round. This is on par with the GPSMG regularly. With a shredder mod, the Reegar loses 12 damage a round on silver, 17 on gold. As opposed to doing just straight 5 damage a round. It's a small increase but the spew is sufficient to help.

    Whatever they're doing, it's definitely bumbling. The inability to determine a pattern to their treatment of the Sentinel class is proof enough of that.
    But the pattern is very clear. Sentinels are defensive. They are hard to put down. They get armor, or regeneration, or a literal wall, usually ablative. It even says this in the multiplayer screen.

    Also, I disagree quite thoroughly with what you said after that, but trying to argue that topic would definitely take more time and energy than I'm willing to put into it, so I'm afraid we'll preemptively have to agree to disagree there.

    Zevox
    That's cool. It's a subjective thing, if anything I've ever mentioned was.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Well, tried out the Fury today.
    And thank you for vocalising your observations so thoroughly, Zevox. I, too, unlocked the Fury quite recently, but I've been struggling to get a good feel for how she works. Getting Biotic Detonations off seems like a random coin flip, and I almost didn't notice that Ann.Field had a persistent radius after it was engaged, so little was it achieving.

    What you said about Ann.Field is exactly what I was feeling, even if I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It's now much clearer what I want to do with her....
    Although I have to say, for the same playstyle (Stand back spamming powers, hit the "Emergency Exit" power when something gets too close) I might well stick with the Phoenix Adept instead. I don't know why, but I find it much more comfortable to use; maybe because the Phoenix Vanguard is so similar, and is my favourite of the Vanguards. *shrug*
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    If we're talking about the Fury, I like to use mine with a 6/6/3/5/6 build. I might change it now though, since I just unlocked the Asari Valkyrie for the 'AF biotic explosion spam' role. Depends how different the lack of teleportation makes it.

    Anyway, I spec SF as Radius/Damage Taken/Drain. The increase in priming distance is actually pretty noticeable - you can tell when they're primed by that little bolt of purple lightning that shoots out from you into the enemy.

    It takes a bit of getting used to to learn how to get into priming range without getting shot, but the damage it can do is pretty impressive. The class definitely performs better on enclosed maps like Glacier where sight-lines are short, enemies are bunched together and you can easily escape by teleporting through the nearest wall.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Packs are spamming me with sentinels. I promoted this morning, and now I'm back to level 19 without playing it at all. Which also means my last character is maxed again. Guess I'll wait for Thursday.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    After ages of suffering the RNG god has finally smiled upon me, with the Demolisher last night rounding out my N7 collection and the holy grail of rifles, the Cerberus Harrier, today. And boy is it everything i hoped it would be. Only downside is the low ammo cap and the recoil but with the barrage equipment and an extended clip thats mostly dealt with. All I want now is the typhoon and some of the new classes.


    It takes a bit of getting used to to learn how to get into priming range without getting shot, but the damage it can do is pretty impressive. The class definitely performs better on enclosed maps like Glacier where sight-lines are short, enemies are bunched together and you can easily escape by teleporting through the nearest wall.
    Yeah Fury's amazing on the smaller maps, long range you really do have to rely on DC -> Throw or weapons, same for on the higher difficulties. Because of this I highly recommend taking the 5th tier cd reduction talent on DC so you can alternate between setting and detonating explosions. That being said AF is great for emergencies when you find yourself getting surrounded and if you're doing some Rio farming but personally I never detonate it, letting it sit there and prime for detonate specced throws.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    And thank you for vocalising your observations so thoroughly, Zevox. I, too, unlocked the Fury quite recently, but I've been struggling to get a good feel for how she works. Getting Biotic Detonations off seems like a random coin flip, and I almost didn't notice that Ann.Field had a persistent radius after it was engaged, so little was it achieving.
    My first time using the fury, I put radius on and then eventually promoted her. When someone said they were 100% proof positive the radius evolution only affected detonation and not priming, I went with damage instead. I had the same trouble for a while. Then I did what Tome suggested and went with Radius Increase. It's pretty slick.

    Priming affects enemies sequentially. If there are three in range, it will hit them one at a time until thy are all primed. Organic enemies will often panic, which involves a backstep which can take them out of range. The energy looks present for about a half second even when the field is disconnected. Finally, it takes a moment to launch into a target. These things couple together can lead you to throw at a yarded which is not primed, and wonder why they do not detonate. Often, the key to using AF is to hit enemies from afar with dark channel, move in while they struggle with it (a detonation here works well), heavy melee Ito the weakened group and detonate whoever is still standing. Alternately, sneak aroun corners with L3 (on Xbox) to prime targets approaching your cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farix View Post
    After ages of suffering the RNG god has finally smiled upon me, with the Demolisher last night rounding out my N7 collection and the holy grail of rifles, the Cerberus Harrier, today. And boy is it everything i hoped it would be. Only downside is the low ammo cap and the recoil but with the barrage equipment and an extended clip thats mostly dealt with. All I want now is the typhoon and some of the new classes.
    The harrier has very few recoil issues. It always fires in the same way; the first three bullets shoot with little recoil, it's capacitor kicks in and it fires from a position that's higher than original firing, and it stays there. The best way to se it are to use three-round bursts (which kill most mooks, even marauders and such) or to drop a full clip into a heavy. Against a non-nearby enemy unity holdin down the trigger is a waste of time.

    The gun shoots perfectly straight at its fire zone. It will fight you tooth and nail if you try and move it, however, which is probably where you experienced trouble. It's a strange but fun gun.

    Yeah Fury's amazing on the smaller maps, long range you really do have to rely on DC -> Throw or weapons, same for on the higher difficulties. Because of this I highly recommend taking the 5th tier cd reduction talent on DC so you can alternate between setting and detonating explosions. That being said AF is great for emergencies when you find yourself getting surrounded and if you're doing some Rio farming but personally I never detonate it, letting it sit there and prime for detonate specced throws.
    Why? Dark channel will move to a new target who is them primed. I you're working with a group of enemies, you won't need to use dark channel again at all until the next group shows up. Or do you mean do you can use throw faster?

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Tried out respeccing my Fury today. First, to a 6/6/6/0/6 build, with Radius/Damage Taken/Drain on AF and max defense in Fitness. Armed with just a Phalanx 10 to account for the loss of carry capacity. Surprisingly, the Radius boost on AF is actually pretty substantial - I'd say absolutely essential to use a close-range, AF -> Throw Fury. That build made that tactic viable - although mostly against Cerberus and the Geth. It had a harder time against the Collectors and especially Reapers, who have fewer shielded units to drain from. My first match with it was Reapers/London, and was a disaster after the first few waves went well.

    I then tried switching to something more oriented to what I was doing before, 6/6/6/5/3 with Radius/Speed/Damage on AF. And was not nearly as happy with it as I had hoped to be, honestly. The Speed boost from AF was noticeable, but the Radius boost to the detonation effect wasn't nearly as noticeable as it is to the priming effect, and the damage wasn't as much better as I'd hoped. Plus, the loss of the duration boost that comes with Drain actually made it a lot harder to just set AF at the start of a wave and detonate it when an opportunity presented itself.

    So ultimately, I switched back to the 6/6/6/0/6 build. Mostly because, honestly, it can do both the ranged, Dark Channel and Throw oriented tactic and the close-combat AF and Throw tactic. Sure it loses some damage from the AF detonation, but as I said I wasn't as impressed with that as I'd hoped to be, and the flexibility of having both strategies available will work better I think. Just need to work on when to use each.

    I am a bit worried about what I'll do with the Asari Valkyrie to differentiate them once I get her though, since she basically has to do the close-combat tactic, lacking a ranged power other than Warp as she does.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    But the pattern is very clear. Sentinels are defensive. They are hard to put down. They get armor, or regeneration, or a literal wall, usually ablative. It even says this in the multiplayer screen.
    Tech Armor knock-offs are present on Soldiers (Krogan, Batarian, Geth), Vanguards (Krogan, Batarian), and an Adept (Krogan). Bloodlust is purely a Vorcha thing, not a Sentinel thing, as seen by the fact that both the Vorcha Soldier and Engineer get it as well. Same deal for Shield Boost on the Volus - all three of the others get it just the same.

    It's kind of hard to claim that those define the Sentinel class when all but one of the other classes (Infiltrators) can lay claim to them as well. So if that's what they're going for, they're kind of failing at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Why? Dark channel will move to a new target who is them primed. I you're working with a group of enemies, you won't need to use dark channel again at all until the next group shows up. Or do you mean do you can use throw faster?
    He probably means for big targets that won't get taken out by a single Dark Channel -> Throw combo. Dark Channel may remain in effect after a combo, but it can't be detonated again on the same enemy unless reapplied.

    Zevox
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    He probably means for big targets that won't get taken out by a single Dark Channel -> Throw combo. Dark Channel may remain in effect after a combo, but it can't be detonated again on the same enemy unless reapplied.
    Exactly, though if you're fighting a prime you can hit their drone, detonate, and hit the Prime itself when the DC jumps then replacing the DC on the new drone.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Tried out respeccing my Fury today. First, to a 6/6/6/0/6 build, with Radius/Damage Taken/Drain on AF and max defense in Fitness. Armed with just a Phalanx 10 to account for the loss of carry capacity. Surprisingly, the Radius boost on AF is actually pretty substantial - I'd say absolutely essential to use a close-range, AF -> Throw Fury. That build made that tactic viable - although mostly against Cerberus and the Geth. It had a harder time against the Collectors and especially Reapers, who have fewer shielded units to drain from. My first match with it was Reapers/London, and was a disaster after the first few waves went well.

    I then tried switching to something more oriented to what I was doing before, 6/6/6/5/3 with Radius/Speed/Damage on AF. And was not nearly as happy with it as I had hoped to be, honestly. The Speed boost from AF was noticeable, but the Radius boost to the detonation effect wasn't nearly as noticeable as it is to the priming effect, and the damage wasn't as much better as I'd hoped. Plus, the loss of the duration boost that comes with Drain actually made it a lot harder to just set AF at the start of a wave and detonate it when an opportunity presented itself.

    So ultimately, I switched back to the 6/6/6/0/6 build. Mostly because, honestly, it can do both the ranged, Dark Channel and Throw oriented tactic and the close-combat AF and Throw tactic. Sure it loses some damage from the AF detonation, but as I said I wasn't as impressed with that as I'd hoped to be, and the flexibility of having both strategies available will work better I think. Just need to work on when to use each.
    Glad that worked out as hoped. However, don't rely on drain to keep you alive, I think that where you're having trouble. It should be a bonus, not a tactical lynchpin.

    I am a bit worried about what I'll do with the Asari Valkyrie to differentiate them once I get her though, since she basically has to do the close-combat tactic, lacking a ranged power other than Warp as she does.
    Personally, I just use heavier weapons. I make her strategy to hit a prime target with an exposé warp, then run up an gun everyone while AF severely damages them, then detonate it as a finisher. Fun, but not optimal. Teh armor Eli's though, and if you resolve yourself to full tech defense you aren't worried about power speed anyway.

    Tech Armor knock-offs are present on Soldiers (Krogan, Batarian, Geth), Vanguards (Krogan, Batarian), and an Adept (Krogan). Bloodlust is purely a Vorcha thing, not a Sentinel thing, as seen by the fact that both the Vorcha Soldier and Engineer get it as well. Same deal for Shield Boost on the Volus - all three of the others get it just the same.

    It's kind of hard to claim that those define the Sentinel class when all but one of the other classes (Infiltrators) can lay claim to them as well. So if that's what they're going for, they're kind of failing at it.
    That is, frankly, a stupid argument. Soldiers, infiltrators, sentinels, engineers and vanguards get area powers, so adepts must fail at their niche. Adepts and engineers (prime casters) can carry guns, so there's no reason for a soldier class.

    No, broad overlap does not invalidate that this is the prime factor of the entire branch of character load-outs, even if it is a secondary or tertiary factor for other load outs. Engineers and adepts can heal, too, but as you yourself have experienced, it doesn't really keep your fury alive all that long like it would a sentinel.

    He probably means for big targets that won't get taken out by a single Dark Channel -> Throw combo. Dark Channel may remain in effect after a combo, but it can't be detonated again on the same enemy unless reapplied.
    Ah. Those moments are what AF is for, personally. Multiple detonations in seconds against a target that can't do much about it. even banshees get drained before they become a threat since the damage effect sops their jumping, and the jumping can actually re-prime them before it stops for multiple detonations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farix View Post
    Exactly, though if you're fighting a prime you can hit their drone, detonate, and hit the Prime itself when the DC jumps then replacing the DC on the new drone.
    I prefer sabotage on the drones myself. You haven't ha hysterical fun until a drone shoots it's prime In the butt, and the big reddude just turns around and stares at it. Hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    That is, frankly, a stupid argument. Soldiers, infiltrators, sentinels, engineers and vanguards get area powers, so adepts must fail at their niche. Adepts and engineers (prime casters) can carry guns, so there's no reason for a soldier class.
    You hit more upon why I don't think this whole idea of defining classes by certain abilities works with what we have - it only works if you keep that ability unique to that class, which, except for Tactical Cloak and Biotic Charge, they haven't done (and even Charge now has Havoc Strike as a counterpart). It's why I say they've basically dispensed with the class system at this point - there's so much overlap that any attempt to define each class has begun to lose meaning, because you can probably find something that fits the definition in another class too (again, except if you define Infiltrators and Vanguards solely by the fact that they have Tactical Cloak and Biotic Charge).

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    No, broad overlap does not invalidate that this is the prime factor of the entire branch of character load-outs, even if it is a secondary or tertiary factor for other load outs.
    How are those abilities a "prime factor" to the Sentinels but not to the others? They're the same ability on each class, so it's not like the Sentinel versions are more powerful. Nor do the Sentinels have more defensive abilities per character than their counterparts in other classes (save for the Volus alone).

    Can you really tell me that the Vorcha Sentinel is in some inherent way a more defensive character than the Vorcha Soldier or Hunter? Or the Krogan Sentinel vs Soldier, or the Batarians? And how could the Human Sentinel be more defensive than a Krogan or Batarian Soldier or Vanguard, who enjoy the same DR as they do but with much more built-in health? And heck, the Vanguards can even heal on top of it.

    Yeah, I'm really not seeing this one my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Ah. Those moments are what AF is for, personally. Multiple detonations in seconds against a target that can't do much about it. even banshees get drained before they become a threat since the damage effect sops their jumping, and the jumping can actually re-prime them before it stops for multiple detonations.
    Personally, I've found getting that close to big targets too risky as the Fury. Primes will shoot me for a chain-stagger while their drone/turret finish me off, and the others carry the risk of instant-kill. Plus their shields usually drop fast anyway, and once they're gone Drain doesn't have anything to feed me anymore. So I just play it safe with exactly what Farix suggested - Dark Channel -> Throw, repeat.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    You hit more upon why I don't think this whole idea of defining classes by certain abilities works with what we have - it only works if you keep that ability unique to that class, which, except for Tactical Cloak and Biotic Charge, they haven't done (and even Charge now has Havoc Strike as a counterpart). It's why I say they've basically dispensed with the class system at this point - there's so much overlap that any attempt to define each class has begun to lose meaning, because you can probably find something that fits the definition in another class too (again, except if you define Infiltrators and Vanguards solely by the fact that they have Tactical Cloak and Biotic Charge).
    See, I've never said a single ability or power defines a class. I've argued the opposite. That's why I hit your points; I find "charge equals vanguard" to be poorly conceived. That does not mean that the class system has been 'dispensed with', however. It merely means that the heuristic was wrong, which happens quite a lot. My example of vanguards being close-quarters by their nature stands true even if the havoc can "charge", an the Shadow can as well. Because they are rarely built or close quarters combat. There has always, always been overlap. The classes are more distinct now, they just aren't distinct along the lines that people assume the series laid out at the get go.

    How are those abilities a "prime factor" to the Sentinels but not to the others? They're the same ability on each class, so it's not like the Sentinel versions are more powerful. Nor do the Sentinels have more defensive abilities per character than their counterparts in other classes (save for the Volus alone).
    Because they are defined by their defensive abilities, as a whole, where other classes can dip Into it with a single load-out but not capitalize on as well. A fury, a shadow, and a human infiltrator can all be made to work for melee (as can the Krogan soldier, sentinel, and human soldier). But while these individuals of other classes can handle close range combat, every vanguard can handle close range combat. Every sentinel can mainline defense successfully, where only select individuals of other load outs can. Every infiltrator can stealth-flank and go for critical strikes, while some of the other load outs can flank and critical strike. Every soldier can do whatever soldiers do, while other kits can but not all of them. Etc.

    If you play a class, you are guaranteed to be able to use that archetype's basic strategy no matter what it's powers. Which leads me to believe I was wrong before, and that soldiers are, indeed, defined by their capacity to use weapons. Sticks in my craw but if I can't admit where my rhetoric falls through I can't ask you to do the same.

    Also, tangent; apologies or just saying it was a stupid argument. I meant to clarify so it didn't just seem like I was angry and ranting, but work picked up and I forgot until now.

    Can you really tell me that the Vorcha Sentinel is in some inherent way a more defensive character than the Vorcha Soldier or Hunter? Or the Krogan Sentinel vs Soldier, or the Batarians? And how could the Human Sentinel be more defensive than a Krogan or Batarian Soldier or Vanguard, who enjoy the same DR as they do but with much more built-in health? And heck, the Vanguards can even heal on top of it.

    Yeah, I'm really not seeing this one my friend.
    That's actually irrelevant, because the races themselves aren't balanced. I can guarantee that a Krogan sentinel will be better at defensive play than a Krogan soldier, and that a Krogan soldier will be better at combat and weapons than a Krogan sentinel (though with Krogan, only just). I can guarantee between the two biotic-specific Krogan, the adept will function better as a blaster caster and the vanguard will function better in CQC.

    I can guarantee that between batarians, Jo have a soldier, a sentinel, and a vanguard this same will hold.

    I can guarantee amongst all four Turians, and with why I know of the fifth, this still holds.

    I can guarantee the human adept will blast writer than the human vanguard, and the human vanguard will do close combat ether than the adept. The soldier will do better in generic combat to the ifiltrator's ambush tactics to the sentinel's tank-function to the engineer's tech control. So yes, I can say that along all the lines of the archetype of the class, they will have it as a primary attribute even if ther kits get it as a secondary attribute (sniping, all biotics with stasis) or tertiary (cloaking; volus). I just disagree that soldier = guns, sentinel = tech & biotics, or sentinel = tech armor, vanguard =charge or vanguard = biotics & combat.

    Personally, I've found getting that close to big targets too risky as the Fury. Primes will shoot me for a chain-stagger while their drone/turret finish me off, and the others carry the risk of instant-kill. Plus their shields usually drop fast anyway, and once they're gone Drain doesn't have anything to feed me anymore. So I just play it safe with exactly what Farix suggested - Dark Channel -> Throw, repeat.

    Zevox
    Fair enough. If you have the force on throw, AF detonations an actually chain stagger most heavies, so I'm usually safe. I also feel okay dropping DC on a prime, say, and using AF -> throw against his minions or a 25 count while Dc does it's work. So I'm not married to the concept. Like you said, the versatility is where it's power lies.

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