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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    In Start of Darkness, Redcloak is imprisoned by Lirian. He says he can't get out on his own. False. Redcloak is firmly established as 9th/10th level by his abillity to cast Flame Strike but not Heal. He can cast Plane Shift. 5th level spell and can accomodate Xykon and Right-eye. Why did he not do it? You can't say Lirian took the tuning fork because if she was that smart she would have taken the mantle.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

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    I thought Sunken Valley eloquently covered the points I wanted to make.
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    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Plane Shift has a material component--all Lirian had to do was remove all those components and Redcloak wouldn't be able to cast it.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    And there's no indication that she thought the red cloak was anything other than a cloak that is red, so why would she remove it?

    And remember, she thought he'd been hit with the anti-caster virus too, so she may not have seen any reason to strip him of his possessions.
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Well, she'd have to get rid of scrolls in case he had Use Magic Device ranks, so might as well grab reagents and the like too.
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    The simplest explanation is that, for whatever reason, Redcloak did not possess the requisite magical foci for a pair of plane shift spells.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    You may as well ask why didn't he use greater stone shape and just gradually make a tunnel.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand View Post
    And there's no indication that she thought the red cloak was anything other than a cloak that is red, so why would she remove it?
    Why not? A caster who can't cast isn't going to have a magical use for them, and some of them might actually be useful in a non-magical way, so why take the risk?

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    I always assumed the cave was warded against (at least up to midlevel) teleportations, plane shifts, and stoneshapes.

    Lirian was epic, that trap down there was her "big project" to keep all kinds of spellcasting enemies trapped... so why not just "magically ward" it with spells from the book or a homebrew-version (she might even have help from Dorukan) and be done with it?
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I always assumed the cave was warded against (at least up to midlevel) teleportations, plane shifts, and stoneshapes.

    Lirian was epic, that trap down there was her "big project" to keep all kinds of spellcasting enemies trapped... so why not just "magically ward" it with spells from the book or a homebrew-version (she might even have help from Dorukan) and be done with it?
    This. The implicit assumption of several lines of Redcloak's dialogue is that he already tried everything he knows how to do. I just didn't show it all because I had limited space, and because I assumed that the reader would understand that if a smart, tactically-minded caster like Redcloak says, "X is the only way out," then he probably tried the easy ways first.

    After all, Lirian would have needed to ward her prison against people coming in to rescue them, too, which means locking it down to plane shifts and stone shapes, even if she thinks her prisoners are incapable of them. A restored Xykon, however, is more powerful than Lirian could ward against.
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Lirian was epic, that trap down there was her "big project" to keep all kinds of spellcasting enemies trapped.
    So why wasn't there a rogue's gallery of previously imprisoned villains down there? That's a rich vein of comedy right there.

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    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    So why wasn't there a rogue's gallery of previously imprisoned villains down there? That's a rich vein of comedy right there.
    Because I didn't ever think of that. Sometimes, it's just that simple.
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    So why wasn't there a rogue's gallery of previously imprisoned villains down there? That's a rich vein of comedy right there.
    They were in a different sealed cavern separated by at least a hundred yards of rock and dirt, I would wager.
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Either that, or Xykon and Redcloak were the first people to make an attempt against that particular gate--it was in the middle of a forest, after all, so probably even the Holey Brotherhood didn't know it was there!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This. The implicit assumption of several lines of Redcloak's dialogue is that he already tried everything he knows how to do. I just didn't show it all because I had limited space, and because I assumed that the reader would understand that if a smart, tactically-minded caster like Redcloak says, "X is the only way out," then he probably tried the easy ways first.

    After all, Lirian would have needed to ward her prison against people coming in to rescue them, too, which means locking it down to plane shifts and stone shapes, even if she thinks her prisoners are incapable of them. A restored Xykon, however, is more powerful than Lirian could ward against.
    That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Either that, or Xykon and Redcloak were the first people to make an attempt against that particular gate--it was in the middle of a forest, after all, so probably even the Holey Brotherhood didn't know it was there!
    Yes, the obscure location probably helped. After all, it hadn't been there centuries at that point, which would give more people time to stumble across it.. Though I don't have my copy immediately to hand, this would have taken place just a few years after the Gates had been built, correct?
    Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2012-09-04 at 12:06 PM.
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    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then
    Maybe he cast some kind of dispelling over and over until he broke the wards, and then blasted out.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then
    I always got the impression that he was epic, he just didn't really do much with it. Then he bacame undead, got an int boost, and lost his only real passion in life.

    As for getting out of the cave, Superb Dispelling (mentioned by fitsclowningham above) could have don it. Its the dispel he used against Evil V, and its not in the PHB or even Spell compendium, making me think it is an epic spell that Xykon created for himself. Unless it comes from some other source...
    Last edited by RunicLGB; 2012-09-04 at 12:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
    I always got the impression that he was epic, he just didn't really do much with it. Then he bacame undead, got an int boost, and lost his only real passion in life.

    As for getting out of the cave, Superb Dispelling (mentioned by fitsclowningham above) could have don it. Its the dispel he used against Evil V, and its not in the PHB or even Spell compendium, making me think it is an epic spell that Xykon created for himself. Unless it comes from some other source...
    Epic level handbook, and also D20 SRD:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spell...Dispelling.htm
    Spoiler: Poem by Charles Badger Clark
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    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then
    Power of the Plot. Who cares how Xykon broke out? His level has been since always "Ridiculously High", he simply has the power to "do". He needs 8 or whatever level 9 spells? He has them. He needs three (or more) epic spells? He has them.

    The point of Xykon and his level, since that character got first introduced, was that he is of such a high level that it simply does not matter anymore what it is. 25 or 55 who cares? He is not the enemy you defeat by punching him. He's the Big Bad and the End of All Things.
    Xykon is the worst thing that could happen and he's nigh undefeatable.

    That is the point of such a powerful enemy. Compare him to the Emperor of Star Wars. He has such massive amount of power that it simply does not matter anymore to quantise it any meaningful way.
    You fight him straight on? You lose.

    There are some enemies against which you simply cannot do anything at all. Xykon is one of such.

    The story that The Giant tells here is going to end up a big win because the Order is against a foe that is so powerful that cannot be, by any measure, be beaten - but they still will have managed somehow (paying a high prize in the process as well, probably).
    It's how "High End Enemies" and stories with them as Villains work.

    So I suggest to simply stop bothering those questions you just asked.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post

    The point of Xykon and his level, since that character got first introduced, was that he is of such a high level that it simply does not matter anymore what it is. 25 or 55 who cares? He is not the enemy you defeat by punching him. He's the Big Bad and the End of All Things.
    Xykon is the worst thing that could happen and he's nigh undefeatable.

    That is the point of such a powerful enemy. Compare him to the Emperor of Star Wars. He has such massive amount of power that it simply does not matter anymore to quantise it any meaningful way.
    You fight him straight on? You lose.
    Yes, this is pretty much it. The only one who had a shot at bringing him down was Soon, who was also presumably so epic that he could have flattened Xykon's whole army personally if they'd entered the throne room.
    Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2012-09-04 at 12:38 PM.
    Spoiler: Poem by Charles Badger Clark
    Show

    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    The only one who had a shot at bringing him down was Soon, who was also presumably so epic that he could have flattened Xykon's whole army personally if they'd entered the throne room.
    And note Soon only had a chance because Xykon was horribly reckless there and acted very stupidly in that fight. What we saw from him since then indicates Xykon won't make that mistake anymore, which means he's gotten even more dangerous by that near-defeat.

    If his plan to hide his phylactery in his totally insane Astral Plane Fortress worked, he'd probably have been as invincible as it would ever get and the point of fighting him at all would have been gone.
    For all the ill Redcloak did in creating the abomination "Xykon" the world (the entire multiverse) probably has to thank him he put a stop to that last escalation.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    If his plan to hide his phylactery in his totally insane Astral Plane Fortress worked, he'd probably have been as invincible as it would ever get and the point of fighting him at all would have been gone.
    For all the ill Redcloak did in creating the abomination "Xykon" the world (the entire multiverse) probably has to thank him he put a stop to that last escalation.
    An excellent point.
    Spoiler: Poem by Charles Badger Clark
    Show

    So the song runs on, with shift and change,
    Through the years that have no name,
    And the late notes soar to a higher range,
    But the theme is still the same.
    Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
    Blend in with the old, old rhyme
    That was traced in the score of the strata marks
    While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
    Down the winds of unguessed time.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion View Post
    Though I don't have my copy immediately to hand, this would have taken place just a few years after the Gates had been built, correct?
    Indeed it was. However, I think it's pretty clear that the rifts hadn't been there for centuries before the Gates were built anyway...the implication in the strip is that Soon was one of the first to discover them (if you can call being there when his wife got killed by a massive claw from it "discovery").

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    However, I think it's pretty clear that the rifts hadn't been there for centuries before the Gates were built anyway...the implication in the strip is that Soon was one of the first to discover them
    We do not know that. We do not know how many elves, hunters, nymphs, deer, squirrels etc got eaten before someone got away to tell the story.

    It might be possible the rifts were there all the time as all of them are in areas were people are not likely to cross on an occasional basis. In the desert, the ice, the wilderness, the mountains, a tiny spot in the sky...
    Maybe they were there, maybe the are new. We do not know (and I think it's not that clear in the comic; especially as we see the perspective of Soon, which does not have to be the full truth).

    So yes, Soon was one of the first to discover them but that does not carry any information on the age of the things.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    how did Xykon break out.
    I will happily go through the step-by-step process of how Xykon broke out:

    1. I wrote the pages where he becomes a lich.
    2. I thought about whether or not to spend a page showing him breaking out of the cave.
    3. I came to the conclusion that since I didn't have a good joke ready for that, it would be better to just cut to the next scene, where he's already escaped.
    4. I never worried about it again.


    Hopefully, that clears it up.
    Rich Burlew


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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Oh my god, we now know one of Xykon's epic level spells: Cut Scene!

    Should have guessed that would be the answer, I'll stop asking that as per your other recent comment.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonCat View Post
    It's nice to see someone saying it isn't for once, the forum IQ did just go up. Please have a cookie Sunken Valley.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry576 View Post
    I thought Sunken Valley eloquently covered the points I wanted to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    ...He is not the enemy you defeat by punching him.
    Ahem.

    Seems to me Xykon is exactly the enemy you may defeat by... punching him!


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    Default Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

    I expected that when I wrote my post. What I did not expect is how late that remark would be made.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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