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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    It's worth remembering that apparently hunger games was released in 2008.
    The Battle Royal Film was released in 2000ish, and was a big enough deal to be released in 22 countries. It was reasonably well known at the time over here, I have no reason to believe the same wasn't true in america and it was apparently received pretty well by critics.

    The manga in comparison is later, and I'd say probably a little more genuinely obscure, but the film was a pretty big thing.

    Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?
    Yes and no.

    The Theseus thing was about a bunch of kids being released into a deadly maze where a monster would kill them one by one. They weren't fighting each other, but the net result was meant to be everyone dead. It was done by a conquering nation to a conquered nation, to remind them that they were subservient forever.

    Theseus volunteered for the duty in an attempt to kill the Minotaur and end the sacrifices of his fellows. He then got some help from the daughter of the ruler, killed the Minotaur, and saved his fellow tributes. (Or at least some of them. I'm a little hazy on that bit.)

    There are certainly a lot of thematic similarities.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    @MLai: Well, to put it in my perspective: I've known about Theseus since I was seven. Therefore I'd be very surprised if a writer like Collins had not. Given that she herself lists it as part of her inspiration for the story... Yeah that seems like more than enough to be highly plausible.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    I wasn't, at the time, into anime/manga but had seen the movie. This seemed pretty well know but perhaps just among my circle
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    It's worth remembering that apparently hunger games was released in 2008.
    The Battle Royal Film was released in 2000ish, and was a big enough deal to be released in 22 countries. It was reasonably well known at the time over here, I have no reason to believe the same wasn't true in america and it was apparently received pretty well by critics.

    The manga in comparison is later, and I'd say probably a little more genuinely obscure, but the film was a pretty big thing.

    Also, I'm hazy on this particular myth, but isn't the whole Theseus/Minotaur thing much more about just Theseus dealing with the minotaur, rather than a number of competing teams?
    Maybe I'm just in the minority then. I'd never heard of BR until the whole hunger games controversy, but then if it came out in 2000, I was 12 and what is this.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    I never heard of Battle Royale until the movie adaptation of THG was released. So I don't see it as unreasonable that Collins hadn't, either. Especially since she doesn't seem to fit within BR's target demographic, whereas I kind of do.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I dunno about 'populist' - until THG came out, I don't know anyone who'd ever heard of Battle Royale outside the niche market of anime/manga fans. Though I think I'm confusing populist with popular again.
    I was aware of, but had not watched it. I'm not really much of an anime fan. I mean, it's not inherently anime/manga related except that it happens to be Japanese. It's not entirely mainstream, but it isn't unheard of, either. My roommate owns a copy of the movie. It's on netflix. For a foreign film, it's got decent notoriety. Could have been an inspiration, I suppose. I don't really know or care if it was an inspiration to Hunger Games...my objections to Hunger Games is based more on being outright bad than on being unoriginal.

    I do agree that it is certainly more similar to Battle Royale than to greek mythology, though. In fact, I'd say that linking it to greek myth is a bit on the tenuous side.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    @ Glyphstone:
    Yes, and that fulfills the criteria for successful plagiarism: It's readily available at any bookstore's manga section so she can easily have skimmed through them, but it's still niche enough that she can deny ever having seen them and people will take her word for it.
    I sincerely doubt that THG is based off the BR manga simply because well the manga is very obscure compared to the relative popularity of the book and movie version of Battle Royale. Especially because the tone and message of THG is much much closer to the novel than the manga. In that the BR novel is primarily a critique of Japanese nationalism and misguided nostalgia. THG is a (relatively poorly executed) critique on American consumer and entertainment culture. They use similar enough set pieces but in both the set pieces are less important than the message each is trying to portray. This is what makes them literature instead of just pop entertainment; or to be less generous shows us that they are trying to be more than just pop entertainment.

    Harping on the manga is sort of bad form because well it's pretty much just violence porn, unless the chapters I read were the absolute worst of the bunch. Is the brony movement plagiarizing the 2005 Z-grade horror movie Ponytrouble, because they're both about grown men getting too obsessed with little plastic ponies?

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Maybe I'm just in the minority then. I'd never heard of BR until the whole hunger games controversy, but then if it came out in 2000, I was 12 and what is this.
    Welp, I feel old now. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    It's not as if I can prove she ripped off BR; that's not my point.
    What is your point? That because you don't respect her, then it's not possible that she's familiar with a myth that she herself named?

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Regarding Battle Royale novel vs film vs manga:
    I've no objections on being corrected on that. My point remains that I think she ripped off BR, and if it's the movie she ripped, then okay I stand corrected on that detail.

    What is your point? That because you don't respect her, then it's not possible that she's familiar with a myth that she herself named?
    My point is that because I don't respect her as a good writer, then I am willing to assume the worst when her novel bears striking similarities in theme and background to a not-that-obscure foreign novel/film that was released within the immediate time frame of her novel-writing.

    The Theseus thing? Obviously she had to deal with the plausible accusation, and she had to think about it. Anyone could then come up with the line "Oh no, my true inspiration was actually Greek myth. See, I'm so erudite."

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Except that she would have to find that myth after the fact, despite not knowing that it exists. Given the significant differences between the two (EDIT: Referring to THG and BR here), her actually not being aware of a movie that's she's not in the target demographic for and basing the idea more on the Theseus myth is the simpler and more likely explanation.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2012-09-07 at 10:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Umm it's nice you're defending her integrity. I do acknowledge that I'm purposely making a fallacy here: I'm inferring her artistic integrity based on my perception of her writing skill. And yes I'm doing that as a mean-spirited joke.

    However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!

    As for how she found the Theseus myth after the fact? Umm, Google. It would take all of 10 minutes looking up a few keywords. I'm a hobby writer who is old enough to remember libraries, and from personal experience I can say Google changed everything.

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Regarding Battle Royale novel vs film vs manga:
    I've no objections on being corrected on that. My point remains that I think she ripped off BR, and if it's the movie she ripped, then okay I stand corrected on that detail.


    My point is that because I don't respect her as a good writer, then I am willing to assume the worst when her novel bears striking similarities in theme and background to a not-that-obscure foreign novel/film that was released within the immediate time frame of her novel-writing.

    The Theseus thing? Obviously she had to deal with the plausible accusation, and she had to think about it. Anyone could then come up with the line "Oh no, my true inspiration was actually Greek myth. See, I'm so erudite."
    You're still throwing around words like "obviously", while the matter is anything but. You don't like her, we get that. That doesn't mean plagiarism.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her.
    If you know what to look for. Which most Americans who wouldn't. It is an obscure movie for Americans, not getting a theatrical release here until 2011.

    And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!
    No, she wrote something that has a similar base concept, but that's about the extent of it.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    No, I wouldn't say she committed plagiarism, even in my most mean-spirited fallacious assertions. Plagiarism would mean she took BR and copied the plot wholesale, including using specific paragraphs/words, only modifying it a bit for a different audience.
    When I say "ripped off", I only mean that she took the specific base concept (and then wrote clumsily around that).
    As in, "Hmm... this Jpnese movie is like The Running Man... plus teenagers! Oh what a brilliant idea, I bet I could work with that." I wouldn't say she copied much beyond that.

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    And why couldn't she have gotten the idea from the Theseus myth, which she explicitly cites as a source and has more in common with the Hunger Games than Battle Royale does to begin with?
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    And why couldn't she have gotten the idea from the Theseus myth, which she explicitly cites as a source and has more in common with the Hunger Games than Battle Royale does to begin with?
    You've got to be joking.
    This is getting nowhere anyways. We've already made our points clear. Conclusion: I think THG sucks. Leave it at that, ok?

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    You've got to be joking.
    This is getting nowhere anyways. We've already made our points clear. Conclusion: I think THG sucks. Leave it at that, ok?
    Nope. I find the specific similarities the Theseus myth has with THG more important than the more general similarities it has with BR. But fine.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Conclusion: I think THG sucks. Leave it at that, ok?
    There's a difference between disliking a series and claiming (without real proof) that the author intentionally took ideas from another series.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    It's something that bugs me about Hunger Games.

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    Umm it's nice you're defending her integrity. I do acknowledge that I'm purposely making a fallacy here: I'm inferring her artistic integrity based on my perception of her writing skill. And yes I'm doing that as a mean-spirited joke.

    However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!
    Yes and Battle Royale plagarized the Thesues Myth. So it doesn't matter both weren't original.

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Well, the other thing is that if you've read Collins other series Gregor the Overlander it is very clear that she is trying to tell stories that in some ways deconstruct the heroic teenager saving the world by making them face up to the horrible post traumatic stress disorder. The hunger games isn't that far of a jump from her previous series. Making the hunger games all about children hunting children for the amusement of the masses is pretty much complete exposure of her message.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    It's something that bugs me about Hunger Games.
    Except, as pointed out, you have yet to actually prove what you constantly seem to assert as fact.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    Well, the other thing is that if you've read Collins other series Gregor the Overlander it is very clear that she is trying to tell stories that in some ways deconstruct the heroic teenager saving the world by making them face up to the horrible post traumatic stress disorder. The hunger games isn't that far of a jump from her previous series. Making the hunger games all about children hunting children for the amusement of the masses is pretty much complete exposure of her message.
    She wrote the Gregor books? I'd never noticed that...I liked those stories.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yes and Battle Royale plagarized the Thesues Myth. So it doesn't matter both weren't original.
    I'm not sure it really did. It's a helluva lot more about typically japanese fears and cultural issues than it is anything like the greek stuff. Evidence?
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I'm not sure it really did. It's a helluva lot more about typically japanese fears and cultural issues than it is anything like the greek stuff. Evidence?
    The argument is that THG is ripping off BR just as much as BR is ripping off Theseus. In both cases the literary purpose of the stories wildly varies from their stated source of plagiarism (BR exploration of Japanese nationalism etc, and THG criticism of reality TV and classism in America). Both however have similar setting devices leading to people who either aren't paying attention or don't examine anything below the absolute surface to claim THG ripped off BR.

    That being said I think THG was pretty bad, just that claiming it ripped off BR is fundamentally dumb and represents an inability or refusal to analyze literature.

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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    This thread is way off-topic..

    OT: I love the Hunger Games. I've seen the movie. I bought all three books (fairly cheap too!) shortly after, and devoured them quite quickly. All in all, a great series. /shrugs Finnick sounds pretty hot too.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Just finished the third book. Great series. Young adult literature is vastly underestimated.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    Quote Originally Posted by MLai View Post
    However, the Theseus myth is not "the simpler and more likely explanation." In this age of globalized entertainment, a not-obscure foreign movie that has English translations is easily available to her. And, obviously she is in the target demographic -- she wrote something very similar to it!
    I am sorry, but this argument only serves to show that you have not learned about something in school that a lot of us did. I knew about the Minotaur myth before I became a teenager.

    I also love your last sentence in that paragraph. Nice try using circular reasoning there.
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    Default Re: Something that bugs me about Hunger Games

    It's worth pointing out that Collins does know her stuff. From the Romans' recreational bulimia to a rather cool reference to the Theseus myth in Book 2 (the part when Theseus uses a golden thread that weaves through the Labyrinth to bust his way out of the maze), she actually does go to pains to make something substantial out of it.

    Also, claiming that she'd much rather rip off Battle Royale because it's current (and, presumably, because it'd be a ripoff) than be inspired by a classic myth is a little paranoidish...
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