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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Operative (Fighter fix)

    The Operative


    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    1
    |
    2
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |Training, Scan, OBF

    2nd|
    2
    |
    3
    |
    0
    |
    0
    |OBF

    3rd|
    3
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    1
    |Learn I

    4th|
    4
    |
    4
    |
    1
    |
    1
    |OBF

    5th|
    5
    |
    4
    |
    1
    |
    1
    |OBF

    6th|
    6/1
    |
    5
    |
    2
    |
    2
    | Learn II

    7th|
    7/2
    |
    5
    |
    2
    |
    2
    |OBF

    8th|
    8/3
    |
    6
    |
    2
    |
    2
    |OBF

    9th|
    9/4
    |
    6
    |
    3
    |
    3
    |Learn III

    10th|
    10/5
    |
    7
    |
    3
    |
    3
    |OBF

    11th|
    11/6/1
    |
    7
    |
    3
    |
    3
    |OBF

    12th|
    12/7/2
    |
    8
    |
    4
    |
    4
    |Learn IV

    13th|
    13/8/3
    |
    8
    |
    4
    |
    4
    |OBF

    14th|
    14/9/4
    |
    9
    |
    4
    |
    4
    |OBF

    15th|
    15/10/5
    |
    9
    |
    5
    |
    5
    |Learn V

    16th|
    16/11/6/1
    |
    10
    |
    5
    |
    5
    |OBF

    17th|
    17/12/7/2
    |
    10
    |
    5
    |
    5
    |OBF

    18th|
    18/13/8/3
    |
    11
    |
    6
    |
    6
    |Learn VI

    19th|
    19/14/9/4
    |
    11
    |
    6
    |
    6
    |OBF

    20th|
    20/15/10/5
    |
    12
    |
    6
    |
    6
    | OBF[/table]

    Hit Die:d10
    Good Saves:Fortitude
    Class Skills:Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
    Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod (UA Skill System)

    Weapons:All Martial and Simple Weapons
    Armor:Heavy + All Shields (Including Tower Shields)
    Starting Gold:As Fighter. However the Operative gains for free one martial weapon, one ranged weapon, and one suit of armor. These were received as gifts for free from wherever the Operative learned his/her abilities.
    ====
    Class Features

    Operative Bonus Feat (OBF)
    • Bonus Feat


    New Feats
    • Improved Training: Gain +1 Capacity for one area of training. May take multiple times but doesn't stack just applies to a new area.

    • Rigorous Training: May retrain 1 training area during a 10 min time frame. May take multiple times to allow the Operative to retrain more areas during a 10 minute time frame. During the 10 minute retraining time frame a Operative must not be interrupted.


    Training
    • An Operative doesn't just swing a sword, wear armor, and stand in front of their allies. An Operative is always training to hone their skills, not just physical but mental too. An Operative has a pool of points (called Training Points) that he may invest in different areas of expertise. In the morning after a good night's rest the Operative may train for 1 hour. He focuses on what he wants to excel at for the day, at this time he allots his Training Points however he sees fit.


    Training Points
    • These represent where the Operative is focusing his training. Gain [Operative Level] + [.5 * other class levels] + [Con Mod] TP.

    • Level 1 - Level 5: Max TP/Area = 1

    • Level 6 - Level 10: Max TP/Area = 3

    • Level 11 - Level 15: Max TP/Area = 5

    • Level 16 - Level 20: Max TP/Area = 7


    Area of Training
    • The Operative may choose any of the following to put Training Points into. An Operative may only have a number of Areas being trained (points placed into) at one time equal to [Con Score - 10]. An Operative with a con score of 16 can have 6 areas being trained at a time. The areas an Operative may train in is the following.


    • Strength Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Dexterity Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Constitution Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Intelligence Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Wisdom Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Charisma Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Melee Attacks: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to melee attack rolls

    • Ranged Attacks: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to ranged attack rolls

    • Melee Damage: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to melee damage rolls

    • Ranged Damage: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to ranged damage rolls

    • Initiative: 0 + 1 / 2TP Training Bonus to Initiative rolls

    • Hit Points: 2 + 2/TP Temp Hit Points; These refresh every encounter.

    • Armor: -1 ACP from Armor/TP

    • Shield: -1 ACP from Shield/TP

    • Armored Speed: Decrease Penalty to speed from Armor by 5ft/TP

    • Fortitude: Gain bonus to fortitude saves equal to 2 +1/TP

    • Reflex: Gain bonus to reflex saves equal to 2 + 1/TP

    • Will: Gain bonus to wisdom saves equal to 2 + 1/TP


    At 10th level the Operative will gain an ability based on what area he is trained in

    • Ability/Skill Check: May take ten on any check that you have training points allotted to.

    • Melee/Ranged Attack: May make a full attack as a standard action.

    • Melee/Ranged Damage: All 1 and 2's rolled are considered a 3 on damage rolls.

    • Initiative: Don't loose dexterity bonus when surprised.

    • Hit Points: Immune to massive damage death.

    • Armor: Gain 20% Miss Chance

    • Shield: Gain 10% miss Chance.

    • Armored Speed: ???

    • Fort Save: 1/Round may reroll one Fort save.

    • Ref Save: 1/Round may reroll one Ref save

    Will Save: 1/Round may reroll one Will save.[/list]

    Learn
    • At this level the Operative gains a mundane class ability from any class that he has worked with recently.


    • After a mundane class feature has been used the Operative on his next turn may designate he is studying that feature (as a swift action).


    • Example: A 3rd level Operative who has a Druid party member may select Trackless Step, Woodland Stride, or Nature's Sense. Before selecting one however the Operative must have used a Swift Action to learn it by watching the Druid.

      The same Operative who has a Rogue party member may select Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, or Evasion. However if the Operative chooses to learn Sneak Attack then he gains the lowest ability in the chain that he hasn't gained already (SA +1d6 in this case).


    Scan
    • Operative gains the "Scan" ability that allows as a swift action (1/round) the Operative to make a knowledge check against 1 creature in line of sight (a picture or scrying works too) that tells the Operative 1 weakness the creature has.


    • DC 10: Bludgeoning/Piecing/Slashing Weakness

    • DC 15: Elemental Weaknesses

    • DC 20: Average Hp (Average Health)

    • DC 25: Good Saves


    ====
    Holy crap I gave the Operative (fighter) swift actions! I might need to watch my back...

    Do Note that this is to replace the Fighter... Or not...Whatever :)

    Questions

    1: I do want to ask people if they have seen anything like this done? I have most of what I want to do but I wouldn't mind see some examples of other work.

    2: I need a better name... Right now "Operative" sounds to spy/rogue-ish, any suggestions?

    3:I'm trying to get to tier 3 and I think I gave him enough utility/options to do this. Would this qualify for tier 3?

    I know I know.. I'm giving the fighter some options and things to play with... Please don't go crazy on me! I know I'm mad but I couldn't help but play with MoI and the Fighter (as in take MoI and strip it of all its fluff and give it to a class that could use it).

    I have some fluff for later too :)
    Last edited by TopCheese; 2012-09-08 at 05:33 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Operative (Fighter fix)

    Just a first impression: The fluff doesn't seem very fantasy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stu42 View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Operative (Fighter fix)

    there is the fact that Fighters already have too many feats (and half the feat chains are needless gimps to other classes) Giving them more, isnt really that helpful.

    the way i gave the Fighter actual class features was by just removing most of the mundanes


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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Operative (Fighter fix)

    We seem to have a lot of Fighter Fixes lately. I wonder why that is. Anyway...PEACHing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    The Operative


    Hit Die:d10
    Good Saves:Fortitude
    Class Skills:Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
    Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod (UA Skill System)
    So far so good. Extra skill points is always nice. But I do have to ask, why the UA skill system? Or rather, why specify the UA skill system? I didn't care for it myself, and it seems useless to bring it up here.

    Weapons:All Martial and Simple Weapons
    Armor:Heavy + All Shields (Including Tower Shields)
    Starting Gold:As Fighter. However the Operative gains for free one martial weapon, one ranged weapon, and one suit of armor. These were received as gifts for free from wherever the Operative learned his/her abilities.
    Be sure to specify a limit on the equipment here, if you're going to hold to it. Otherwise they'll be getting Full Plate at 1st level, which really shouldn't happen, in addition to Masterwork Adamantine Everything.
    ====
    Class Features

    Operative Bonus Feat (OBF)
    Right here is my first problem. The fix to Fighters is NOT to just throw more feats at it. More feats fixes nothing. Fighters typically have around 5 feats just rotting on their feat list anyway.

    Say it with me before my rage button gets pushed. More feats does not solve anything. It just makes it even more attractive as a dip class. Make them class features. Heck, take the two bonus feats you created and make them class features. Anything to make him less dip-worthy.[/quote]

    • Bonus Feat


    New Feats
    • Improved Training: Gain +1 Capacity for one area of training. May take multiple times but doesn't stack just applies to a new area.

    • Rigorous Training: May retrain 1 training area during a 10 min time frame. May take multiple times to allow the Operative to retrain more areas during a 10 minute time frame. During the 10 minute retraining time frame a Operative must not be interrupted.


    Training
    • An Operative doesn't just swing a sword, wear armor, and stand in front of their allies. An Operative is always training to hone their skills, not just physical but mental too. An Operative has a pool of points (called Training Points) that he may invest in different areas of expertise. In the morning after a good night's rest the Operative may train for 1 hour. He focuses on what he wants to excel at for the day, at this time he allots his Training Points however he sees fit.


    Training Points
    • These represent where the Operative is focusing his training. Gain [Operative Level] + [.5 * other class levels] + [Con Mod] TP.

    • Level 1 - Level 5: Max TP/Area = 1

    • Level 6 - Level 10: Max TP/Area = 3

    • Level 11 - Level 15: Max TP/Area = 5

    • Level 16 - Level 20: Max TP/Area = 7
    Aaaaand you're only making it more attractive as a dip class. Emphasis mine, obviously. Instead of letting him get half points for every level taken in other classes, why not make it a feat that gives him more TP? You've done a good job of making a limit on each of those tiers, but then you went and said, 'Okay, and now you can have +1 on Everything because you were an operative.'

    Area of Training
    • The Operative may choose any of the following to put Training Points into. An Operative may only have a number of Areas being trained (points placed into) at one time equal to [Con Score - 10]. An Operative with a con score of 16 can have 6 areas being trained at a time. The areas an Operative may train in is the following.


    • Strength Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Dexterity Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Constitution Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Intelligence Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Wisdom Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Charisma Skill Checks/Ability Checks: Gain 2 + 1/TP Competence Bonus

    • Melee Attacks: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to melee attack rolls

    • Ranged Attacks: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to ranged attack rolls

    • Melee Damage: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to melee damage rolls

    • Ranged Damage: 1 + 1/TP Training Bonus to ranged damage rolls

    • Initiative: 0 + 1 / 2TP Training Bonus to Initiative rolls

    • Hit Points: 2 + 2/TP Temp Hit Points; These refresh every encounter.

    • Armor: -1 ACP from Armor/TP

    • Shield: -1 ACP from Shield/TP

    • Armored Speed: Decrease Penalty to speed from Armor by 5ft/TP

    • Fortitude: Gain bonus to fortitude saves equal to 2 +1/TP

    • Reflex: Gain bonus to reflex saves equal to 2 + 1/TP

    • Will: Gain bonus to wisdom saves equal to 2 + 1/TP
    Okay. You did good in giving him a lot of variability, but I feel I have to pick out the wheat from the chaff here.

    • Armor and Shield ACPs should be class features to reduce. Otherwise, you may as well just put those points into Dexterity skills, as they cover more.
    • I feel like the Fighter is, oddly enough, being too generalized here. He gets exactly the same bonus per TP to intellectual and charismatic skills as he does to physical ones? Wisdom based skills are far less egregious-a Fighter that doesn't Spot or Listen to ambushes, or gets tricked because of his low Sense Motive, doesn't live long-but very few Fighters are magical geniuses, or fantastic leaders of men. They're, well, Fighters. Also, they get exactly the same bonuses to Will saves as they do to Fortitude saves? I have to call shenanigans.
    • HP bonuses. It's per encounter, but still. They're already constitution-based, and 1 point is going to give them 4 HP per encounter...while at higher levels it caps out at 16 HP? They'll take more than that from a glancing blow. How about making it more of a class feature to replace some of those feats, something like the Monk's HP recovery ability I don't recall? They can recover their Operative level in HP a number of times depending on how much TP they spend?
    • Overall, I feel like this list is far too cherry-picky. How about making it thematically linked? Putting 1 TP into, say, Dextrous Operative gives them the bonus to dexterity skills, lowers ACP, gives initiative and reflex save bonuses, and gives them a bonus to hit. Ranged Operative gives dexterity skills, lowers ACP, and gives a bonus to hit and damage with ranged weapons. Physical Operative gives bonus HP, bonus damage with physical weapons, bonuses to strength skills, and better AC. The list goes on, and it'd be far less egregious to have a Tactical Operative who gets all the smarts than it does to have a general Operative who gains a bonus to Will Saves, (To shore up his weaknesses), chance to hit, damage, and because he had a point left over, Dexterity skills.


    At 10th level the Operative will gain an ability based on what area he is trained in

    • Ability/Skill Check: May take ten on any check that you have training points allotted to.

    • Melee/Ranged Attack: May make a full attack as a standard action.

    • Melee/Ranged Damage: All 1 and 2's rolled are considered a 3 on damage rolls.

    • Initiative: Don't loose dexterity bonus when surprised.

    • Hit Points: Immune to massive damage death.

    • Armor: Gain 20% Miss Chance

    • Shield: Gain 10% miss Chance.

    • Armored Speed: ???

    • Fort Save: 1/Round may reroll one Fort save.

    • Ref Save: 1/Round may reroll one Ref save

    Will Save: 1/Round may reroll one Will save.[/list]
    Rgh. This one particularly rubs me the wrong way. Alright, let's look at some numbers...
    • Ability/skill check:This...it's a high-level class feature to just get this for a few skills, let alone an entire suite, and especially for an ability check. It's somewhat over the top, but I don't feel like its horrible. Perhaps if it had a limit based on how much TP you had on it. Also, be sure to specify that they can take 10 as a full-round action or whatnot.
    • Caaaareful there on the Damage section. Remember that scythes are 2d4, so you'd effectively say they're always a minimum of 6 damage. I'd specify that any weapon that deals more than a single die of damage (Greatsword, scythe, large weapons) only rerolls a single 1 or 2.
    • On that note, I feel like ranged weapons are getting the shaft (Dohoho) again. Most people don't care whether or not they can move if they're using ranged weapons. Why not split it up and give them more accuracy? For example, make it so that they can give up all attacks for the round and instead make a single roll that's treated as taking 10 (Taking 20 at 20th level) and ignores some/all DR as you aim for the 'weak point?' Gives a reason to play an armored archer.
    • Armor/Shield:Shields are used far less often. Why not offer more reward for them? I'd also say change this, so that one of them gives DR/- based on operative level, rather than having them both get the same thing.
    • Saves. 1/round rerolls? As in, always take two rolls on the same thing? When you're already getting a hefty bonus to it? Eeeeh...admittedly, it mostly makes me cringe because they're all the same thing again. Why not spread it out? Fortitude gives you immunity to poison/disease and a bonus against negative energy. Reflex gives you Evasion, which they'll sorely desire, and will make them less tempted to dip for two levels of Rogue. Will...that's actually a pretty decent one for Will.

    Learn
    • At this level the Operative gains a mundane class ability from any class that he has worked with recently.


    • After a mundane class feature has been used the Operative on his next turn may designate he is studying that feature (as a swift action).


    • Example: A 3rd level Operative who has a Druid party member may select Trackless Step, Woodland Stride, or Nature's Sense. Before selecting one however the Operative must have used a Swift Action to learn it by watching the Druid.

      The same Operative who has a Rogue party member may select Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, or Evasion. However if the Operative chooses to learn Sneak Attack then he gains the lowest ability in the chain that he hasn't gained already (SA +1d6 in this case).
    I'm horribly torn on this one. On the one hand, you're specifying that he only gets the weakest extraordinary ability they have. I feel like this is something Bards should have, with their Jack of All Trades tag. On the other hand, I'm reminded of some of the mundane classes that pull off crazy stuff. There's also the fact that a lot of class abilities are extraordinary that kinda shape the class...for example, Rage, or Evasion, or Flurry of Blows.

    I feel like this is too open ended, and opens the way for crazy shenanigans. Tome of Battle level shenanigans. Perhaps a list of abilities he can take from each class, rather than simply saying 'All the things,' with a note to GMs that they can expand this list. Like saying he can only take Sneak Attack from Rogues, the weakest form of Rage from Barbarians, takes -2 to all attacks to add a single attack from Monks, can share a Favored Enemy with Rangers, or even share a Bard's knack for gleaming useful bits of information from everywhere.

    Scan
    • Operative gains the "Scan" ability that allows as a swift action (1/round) the Operative to make a knowledge check against 1 creature in line of sight (a picture or scrying works too) that tells the Operative 1 weakness the creature has.


    • DC 10: Bludgeoning/Piecing/Slashing Weakness

    • DC 15: Elemental Weaknesses

    • DC 20: Average Hp (Average Health)

    • DC 25: Good Saves
    Eeeeh. It's not that the ability itself feels off, just the list of information, and that you left it awfully vague on what knowledges go to what. Why not make it similar to Bardic Knowledge, where it's based solely on level and intelligence, and rather than the DC 20 HP and DC 25 Good Saves (Which most people can glean from its size and shape alone) you instead learn typical strategies, spell-like abilities, or for truly high DCs, you learn some of their feats and stats?

    Questions

    1: I do want to ask people if they have seen anything like this done? I have most of what I want to do but I wouldn't mind see some examples of other work.

    2: I need a better name... Right now "Operative" sounds to spy/rogue-ish, any suggestions?

    3:I'm trying to get to tier 3 and I think I gave him enough utility/options to do this. Would this qualify for tier 3?
    1.Seeing as how there seems to be a new Fighter Fix every other day, I have.

    2.Tactician, Warmaster, Adaptive Combatant, Mundane Warrior, etc.

    3.You made him a Tier 4 dip. Sorry mate. Even with the bonus to his skills that's possible, and the fact that he can copy physical abilities, he still feels too constrained to simply doing damage in battle and little more. What's more, few abilities are tied to his level, and the few that are...seem rather skippable. You made him very good at dealing damage, and having a few more abilities with which to do so, but you did the majority of that just by giving him ALL THE FEATS and giving him a bonus to hit, damage, saves, and defenses. As decent as he is, I'd still take one level and let his TP build up so I have bonuses in all the things, rather than take him to completion.

    4.I'd recommend you take a look at Lemmy's Pathfinder Fighter and use that as an example of a well-done Fighter fix.
    Last edited by Der_DWSage; 2012-09-08 at 09:35 PM.

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