Xykon vs Emperor Gestahl

[The Second]

Assume that a link has been made between the OoTS universe and the Final Fantasy VI world.

Emperor Gestahl, the expansionist ruler of the FF Empire with a taste for genocide, learns of this link and of a new magic system that can be taken advantage of through book learning rather than through sucking the life force from an endangered species.

Xykon, the ego-maniacal lich with too much time on his hands, also learns about this link and hears rumors of a source of magic that can be exploited by reducing living beings to shards of pure magic.

Gestahl is already in the midst of a war (well, a rather one sided war, but a war none-the-less) in a bid to conquer the world. For this he has had his foremost researcher investigate infusing technology with magic. Gestahl's resources include Magitech armor and a pair of generals who have been given the power to use magic, one of which (Celes) may well defect to the enemy at the notion of genocide and the other (Kefka) being far less than emotionally or mentally stable. Gestahl also had all the resources of a modestly sized kingdom, including a standing army.

Xykon is currently focusing all of his resources on finding the Gates. At his disposal are an unknown thing he keeps shrouded in darkness and his goblin lieutenant, Redcloack, a person who has only the most tenuous of loyalties.

As I see it, Xykon has the advantage of being enormously powerful yet independent party. He has the least to loose in this fight. If Gestahl wanted to subjugate the Stick-verse he would essentially end up fighting a war on two fronts versus not only Xykon but also all the kingdoms of the Stick-Verse and their not inconsiderable magical might.

The big question here is: would either of the parties even be interested in the what the other has? Xykon is interested in power for the sake of power, and though he has mentioned ruling the world in passing, it does not seem to be a high priority for him. Gestahl has an empire to run, a rebellion to exterminate, and generals who are either too moral for his purposes of too insane to be trusted; in other words, he may well have to much on his late to even consider taking a bit our of the Stick-Verse.

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Mikeavelli]

The footsoldiers of the Empire (Goblins, hobgoblins, occasional powerful undead) aren't much of a match for the footsoldiers of the Empire (highly trained soldiers, Magitek troopers, cyborgs) - but there's really nothing in the Empire's arsenal that can compete with Xykon and Redcloak until the floating continent rises.

Basically, I see it as another Azure city siege, with similar results.

[Eakin]

Well, there's a LOT more magic in DnD/OotS-verse than in FF6. Remember that in that game there had been a war 1000 years back that ended with all magic disappearing, and it's only not starting to sneak back in. Xykon's an epic level caster from a pretty high magic campaign.

Forget his army, Xykon squishes the entire southern continent, by himself, over the course of a long weekend because he runs out of stuff to watch on his Tivo.

[Traab]

Keep in mind it isnt just xykon who is a caster. You have redcloak, who is probably the next most high level caster in his army, a number of goblin clerics, an entire race of hobgoblin soldiers with random skillsets, and I wouldnt be surprised to see a variety of caster types mixed in. Before she was killed they had that thaumaturge goth chick as well. Capable of creating some pretty damn powerful units.

On the downside, they are medieval tech. Swords bows and arrows, and standard armor. The ff6 verse also has that but has access to better tech like guns, bio weapons, magitech armor, things like that. They also tend to have random large scale encounter monsters under their control. The emp and his top guys like celes also have access to interesting magic. Celes and her rune sword ability to absorb magic alone could potentially be game breaking for them against lich boy. When he tries to blast her, she just absorbs it while kefka attacks. And xykon is really the only guy on his side that couldnt be simply overwhelmed with standard troops.

Xykon has shown it is possible to take him down in a clever trap. The ghosts of the sapphire guard trick was genius and only failed due to miko being a stupid bimbo. On the other hand, he has also shown some very high end magic and a raw level of power that can match up to some scary types. Like varsuvious and her triple caster soul splice thing. So I really dont know what would happen in the final showdown between gestahl, celes, and kefka versus xyhon and maybe redcloak.

[The Second]

Well, there's a LOT more magic in DnD/OotS-verse than in FF6. Remember that in that game there had been a war 1000 years back that ended with all magic disappearing, and it's only not starting to sneak back in. Xykon's an epic level caster from a pretty high magic campaign.

Forget his army, Xykon squishes the entire southern continent, by himself, over the course of a long weekend because he runs out of stuff to watch on his Tivo.

Point taken, however, remember also that the Empire is the only super power in the game. The other kingdoms that seem to be of any threat to it are Doma and possibly Figaro. Doma more so than Figaro since the latter seems more equipped for defense than offense. Given that, were Gestahl to divert his attention from the siege of Doma to, I dunno, sending an expeditionary force into the stick-verse or hunting down an overblown magic user, even if Doma made a full scale counter attack, I doubt the Empire would be in a serious situation.

Also, Xykon may be powerfull but he's far from omnipotent. He's got a lot of firepower at his disposal, sure, but he has to rest sometime to recover his spells. Not so much with the Magitech armor. While it can be argured that they don't have infinite ammunition as in the game, I doubt it would take a full eight hours to resupply.

Add into the mix two competent generals who are likely not going to be happy about a power mad skeleton rampaging through their Empire. True, Celes is lacking in magic power while she's serving the Empire, and Leo has no magic what so ever, but they are still generals, and I would assume they have the military skill to back that up.

So, Xykon vs an army able to recharge it's magic faster than he could ever hope to? I doubt he'll be rampaging so much as picking his battles and trying to find the holy grail.

Another thing, what keeps Gestahl from say, opening a trade agreement with one of the kingdoms in the stick-verse? He's shown that he's quite capable of allying himself with a powerful nation, then using that aliance for his own gain. Trade a couple of suits of Magitech armor for some wands scrolls and a someone to instruct his troops in how to use them effectively? I'd call that a bargain. Then, once you boys and girls are outfitted with all kinds of neat new doodads, take care of the lich and take over the world. Then maybe break those aliances you made and march on the stick-verse.

Celes and her rune sword ability to absorb magic alone could potentially be game breaking for them against lich boy. When he tries to blast her, she just absorbs it while kefka attacks.

How could I forget about Celes and Runic? Hell, send her after Xykon with Kefka for backup. Suddenly you have a magic negation along with a very scary lunatic against a lich who's favorite tricks are Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm.

Of course, Xykon has access to flight while the best a FF6 caster can hope to do is float. Unless we discount the Imperial Air Force...

As for Xykons shock troops, I doubt they'd amount to much more than cannon fodder. Then there's Redcloak's unwillingness to send goblins to their deaths needlessly.Once Redcloak realizes his army is badly outmatched will he continue to send wave after wave of goblins into the fray and watch them burn?

[TheSummoner]

Lets not forget that Gestahl was quite powerful (by Final Fantasy standards) by himself. It's easy to overlook since the only time you see him casting anything is against Kefka... And everything he cast was nullified by the statues... But he did bust out some of the best spells available.

I give it to Gestahl. Celes alone can singlehandedly nullify anything Xykon can throw out with her Rune Sword and powerful caster or not, Redcloak is still mortal. I can't see him standing up long against something like the Guardian (that giant mech that can make itself 100% invulnerable at the cost of its mobility).

And this is assuming a Phoenix Down kills undead won't work on Xykon.

[Traab]

Lets not forget that Gestahl was quite powerful (by Final Fantasy standards) by himself. It's easy to overlook since the only time you see him casting anything is against Kefka... And everything he cast was nullified by the statues... But he did bust out some of the best spells available.

I give it to Gestahl. Celes alone can singlehandedly nullify anything Xykon can throw out with her Rune Sword and powerful caster or not, Redcloak is still mortal. I can't see him standing up long against something like the Guardian (that giant mech that can make itself 100% invulnerable at the cost of its mobility).

And this is assuming a Phoenix Down kills undead won't work on Xykon.

RUN HIM OVER WITH THE GHOST TRAIN! Heh, he hates ghosts, bet that would give him horrified flashbacks of the sapphire guard.

[The Succubus]

I see Kefka and Xykon becoming the very best of friends myself. Also, doesn't Runic only absorb one spell? Pretty sure if Xykon got Quickened spells ready he'd be more than capable of killing Celes. I was never able to get the Phoenix Down thing to work for me. An X-Potion on the other hand...

[Traab]

I see Kefka and Xykon becoming the very best of friends myself. Also, doesn't Runic only absorb one spell? Pretty sure if Xykon got Quickened spells ready he'd be more than capable of killing Celes. I was never able to get the Phoenix Down thing to work for me. An X-Potion on the other hand...

Ugh, I dont. You cant have two megalomaniacal lunatics interested in world domination working together. They might appreciate each others motivations and goals, but they would quickly recognize each other as threats and start trying to kill each other. Although, now im curious as to who would win, final form kefka? Or the epic lich? I mean lets face it, at xykons level, he could probably manage to pull off some sort of insane combo of attacks that would cause wild damage or otherwise cripple kefka. On the other hand, final form kefka is basically a deity at that point right?

[DiscipleofBob]

Gestahl shows up with Celes, Kefka, and Leo in tow with a few Magitek Armors for backup.

Xykon has his army of expendable hobgoblins plus a few undead servants.

The goblin army is quickly destroyed but serves to distract the bulk of Gestahl's forced for a bit.

Celes spams Runic which effectively shuts down the casters, but being a lich grants Xykon some nifty natural abilities.

The Magitek Armors and Leo incinerate the majority of the undead armies, and Xykon takes quite a beating as well.

Xykon starts losing until he pulls off some sort of devious trick that injures Gestahl or someone important. Because they can't access magic themselves if Celes is spamming Runic, Celes is forced to temporarily halt the Runic-spam so Cure magic can take effect.

At this point most of Xykon's forces are wasted, but they have enough unused magic to do serious damage to the Gestahl's army, and he even manages to kill Leo in their one on one duel, leaving Gestahl, Celes, and Kefka VS Xykon, Redcloak, and maybe Tsukiko in a magic duel. At that point it depends on what Xykon has prepared, as D&D magic is far more varied and powerful, but FF magic lasts longer thanks to MP and MP-restoring items.

Actually, scratch all that.

Someone uses a Phoenix Down on Xykon, then Kefka lets loose the Snarl and kills everyone because he's an ass.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah if we presume Runic to be effective there really isn't much. Leo and Celes should be able to match Xykon(-Spells) in a fight. The normal troops are medieval, even aside from normal troopers the Empire has giant mecha, and arguably more forces since they control a continent as opposed to a city-state.

I think only major wildcard in this is Redcloak. He's a high level Cleric and probably the only one on Team Evil with the brains to pointedly avoid Celes while he buffs the heck out of himself from outside her reach. Runic is not Dispel, so Redcloak enters the fight with every buff on the SRD list and as many Summons.... yeah Celes is dead if properly targeted I'm afraid. Maybe even *really* dead not wounded.

And if Redcloak does this early enough that brings our Epic Lich back into play at full power and makes things a more interesting question. However given everyone's tendency to play the blasting game (Xykon you took Meteor Swarm whyyyyy) and the limited nature of even a Sorceror's spells its still an uphill fight.

[Zaydos]

Xykon gets around runic with quickened spells we've seen him use it. That said, I'd say Fire 3 is probably as strong as Meteor Swarm and that Celes + Gestahl could probably take out Xykon; this is assuming that Gestahl's power remained static throughout the game and did not grow like Kefka's did.

That said Redcloak breaks Celes's power lock by being a second high level caster and runic only working on the next spell. If Gestahl has end of World of Balance power level Kefka, and Celes and Leo I'd give it to him. Without Celes they still have a chance and it's not a battle I'd want to watch as it's liable to end up with a huge crater and lots of collateral damage.

I'd also say you're overrating magitech soldiers' abilities, having played the game I'd peg them as mostly CR 4ish. Still enough to slaughter the goblinoid armies but about equal to the shocktroops. That said numbers make the difference.

[TheSummoner]

Runic is nothing more than Celes holding her sword up like a lightning rod and nullifying the next spell to be cast. What says she can't just keep it in the air?

Further, it wouldn't just be Redcloak taking avantage of buffs. Gestahl's side would come in fully buffed as well. Haste. Shell. Protect. Regen. Maybe even Life 3 if you want to be generous. Hmm... I wonder how much havoc Reflect would cause against Xykon and Redcloak...

[Surrealistik]

I don't think the Guardian super-mech is being given enough love.

That thing is basically invulnerable if dug in, and is powerful enough to lethally menace a party of epic level opponents by itself (it's a boss in the World of Ruin just prior to Kefka). The Empire also has _several_ of them (see the betrayal in Thamasa).

[Soras Teva Gee]

That said Redcloak breaks Celes's power lock by being a second high level caster and runic only working on the next spell.

So help me I have a distinct recollection of Celes nullifying both a monster's spell and my own stupidly cast one before her next turn. Then again I also last played FFVI with a pretty serious romhack to replace all the major characters with ponies so.... yeah.

That said its even more open a question whether that represents a "real" way it works or simply the mechanics of the game. They're both different enough that I'm not sure I'd like to compare even turn for turn as being representing anything like the same thing.

[Traab]

So help me I have a distinct recollection of Celes nullifying both a monster's spell and my own stupidly cast one before her next turn. Then again I also last played FFVI with a pretty serious romhack to replace all the major characters with ponies so.... yeah.

That said its even more open a question whether that represents a "real" way it works or simply the mechanics of the game. They're both different enough that I'm not sure I'd like to compare even turn for turn as being representing anything like the same thing.

I dont THINK it nullifies all spells cast until her next round, but I cant be sure. I only ever used it in one boss battle, the one with her and locke at the start when your story splits off in 3 directions. And that was because the freaking battle dialogue virtually forces you to do it. I honestly never really bothered with her.

My favorite party makeup was always edgar, sabin, cyan, and gogo. Huge damage, spread across everything on screen at once, and excellent single target damage as well. The fact that anyone could learn all the magic spells also made it so having an aeris in your party wasnt all that important 99% of the time, so I didnt need to include terra or celes just because according to the lore fluff, they should be superior spellcasters to say, locke.

[Zaydos]

So help me I have a distinct recollection of Celes nullifying both a monster's spell and my own stupidly cast one before her next turn. Then again I also last played FFVI with a pretty serious romhack to replace all the major characters with ponies so.... yeah.

That said its even more open a question whether that represents a "real" way it works or simply the mechanics of the game. They're both different enough that I'm not sure I'd like to compare even turn for turn as being representing anything like the same thing.

I played through to the World of Balance on the American version and if I stupidly cast a spell between her turn and the monster's it wouldn't nullify the monster's. Also if I cast two spells it wouldn't nullify but one.

Runic is nothing more than Celes holding her sword up like a lightning rod and nullifying the next spell to be cast. What says she can't just keep it in the air?

Because it doesn't work by just holding it up. She spends her action, holds it up, it flashes, and it absorbs the next spell. That indicates that she has to do something to make it work not just hold it up. Also if it did work that way you now have Xykon a lich with a paralyzing touch, Redcloak, and potentially some rather potent undead (as shown when they put Azure under siege they can make some rather potent types of undead) versus Leo and two mages.

[The Second]

Well undead, in FF terms, are just asking to be Fenix Downed. I'd say it would be pretty common knowledge. I don't think it would destroy Xykon, though, probably just his body while his soul fled back to his philactery.

In a face off, I see this: Kefka, Celes, Terra (with slave crown), and Leo VS Xykon as main boss with Redcloak and various goblins and undead.

Leo and Kefka tank as their def and mdef are likely the highest. Leo focuses on cutting down Redcloak and his goblin lackeys with Shock, Kefka blasts Xykon with the most powerful spells at his disposal (Fire 3... maybe a Merton or two, so long as everyone on his side has some kind of defense against it). Celes uses runic each round to suck up at least one of the spells flying around. Terra heals and buffs.If we can assume Life 2 and 3 are on the table, Kefka and co win by attrition. If not, things are a bit more dicey.

All else fails: Vashish-Doom. Exploit the bugs features.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I played through to the World of Balance on the American version and if I stupidly cast a spell between her turn and the monster's it wouldn't nullify the monster's. Also if I cast two spells it wouldn't nullify but one.

I'm actually not disputing you there.

My real point is that its a pretty open question whether any mechanics can be considered to have any sort of direct translation in the other system.

Does say an FFVI turn mean the same thing at all as a OOTS/3.5 turn? Afterall does anyone want to submit that Roy (among others) has more attacks then anyone in FFVI without a specific Relic, but almost everyone in FFVI can deplete 3.5 HP in single swipe?

OOTS plays a little closer to its mechanics but I pretty sure Rich doesn't roll initiative or count attacks every time. And FF I would characterize as having a stronger (though not entirely rigid) divide between the ATB and what actually happens.

[The Second]

I'm actually not disputing you there.

My real point is that its a pretty open question whether any mechanics can be considered to have any sort of direct translation in the other system.

Does say an FFVI turn mean the same thing at all as a OOTS/3.5 turn? Afterall does anyone want to submit that Roy (among others) has more attacks then anyone in FFVI without a specific Relic, but almost everyone in FFVI can deplete 3.5 HP in single swipe?

OOTS plays a little closer to its mechanics but I pretty sure Rich doesn't roll initiative or count attacks every time. And FF I would characterize as having a stronger (though not entirely rigid) divide between the ATB and what actually happens.

ATB is still turn based, and closer to 3.5 mechanics than other console RPGs. With the ATB you could order one character to pass his/her turn off to another (Celes waits to use her Runic ability until after everyone on her side has cast a spell, for example). In other turn based RPGs, when your character gets his or her chance to act, there's no way to pass that on to another character (Note that I may in fct be mistaken as I'm speaking from experience that's badly out of date.)

As for the attacks per turn issue, there are skills in FF6 that allow a character to attack more than once per turn (two of Cyan's Sword Techs, Sabin's Blitz's also had multi-hit techs if I'm not mistaken). As for our party of Leo, Terra, Kefka, Gestahl, and Celes, They really aren't focused toward Melee any more than Xykon and Redcloak are (well, Leo is, but I think his Tech would be powerful enough to not warrant having multiple attacks per turn). Not to mention that, as in D&D, in FF magic trumps melee.

The only (combat oriented) spells I can think of in D&D that wouldn't have a parallel in FF are Energy Drain and Pollymorph (Imp doesn't come close to Polymorph cheese). Though I'd argue that both spells cause status effects that could be removed by Esuna/Dispell.

[Traab]

ATB is still turn based, and closer to 3.5 mechanics than other console RPGs. With the ATB you could order one character to pass his/her turn off to another (Celes waits to use her Runic ability until after everyone on her side has cast a spell, for example). In other turn based RPGs, when your character gets his or her chance to act, there's no way to pass that on to another character (Note that I may in fct be mistaken as I'm speaking from experience that's badly out of date.)

As for the attacks per turn issue, there are skills in FF6 that allow a character to attack more than once per turn (two of Cyan's Sword Techs, Sabin's Blitz's also had multi-hit techs if I'm not mistaken). As for our party of Leo, Terra, Kefka, Gestahl, and Celes, They really aren't focused toward Melee any more than Xykon and Redcloak are (well, Leo is, but I think his Tech would be powerful enough to not warrant having multiple attacks per turn). Not to mention that, as in D&D, in FF magic trumps melee.

The only (combat oriented) spells I can think of in D&D that wouldn't have a parallel in FF are Energy Drain and Pollymorph (Imp doesn't come close to Polymorph cheese). Though I'd argue that both spells cause status effects that could be removed by Esuna/Dispell.

ATB was actually different in that if you just stood there, the enemy would get to make its attack every so many seconds. You had to make quick decisions or else the bad guys would get an extra shot or two in.

As for attacks per round, good lord some of the characters could abuse the hell out of the system. With the right relics, cyan could quadra slam every monster on the screen, twice in a single round. X-force and genji glove I believe. So 8 hits to every bad guy present. At max level thats 9999 x8 damage to everything. Sabin had some blitz technique that worked especially well against undead iirc. But I tended to stick with the last one you learn after kefka blows up the world. Relm could make magic copies of whoever she draws, and she draws fast, that can use one of their attacks against the enemy. So imagine her using that on xykon and the painting copy casts meteor swarm or whatever.

If Terra was a part of the crew, she has the ability, I believe, to double cast spells when she goes into esper form. Combined with a relic that, iirc, reduces all mp costs to 1, and you have someone with more spells than a dozen sorcs.

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, it really just comes down to Leo, Kefka, Celes and Gestahl each piloting a Guardian class magitek armour; the end.

If you want to get fancy, throw in Vanish + Doom/X-Zone (Kefka has that spell at least), Phoenix Downs, etc...

[Soras Teva Gee]

ATB was actually different in that if you just stood there, the enemy would get to make its attack every so many seconds. You had to make quick decisions or else the bad guys would get an extra shot or two in.

Yeah that's right, definitely not comparable in exact mechanics.

If Terra was a part of the crew, she has the ability, I believe, to double cast spells when she goes into esper form. Combined with a relic that, iirc, reduces all mp costs to 1, and you have someone with more spells than a dozen sorcs.

Her esper mode overcharged spells by upping their power. She's can be the first to hit the damage cap using that... and when the ability becomes meaningless you know you really did too much grinding.

The dual casting is another relic.

[Traab]

Yeah that's right, definitely not comparable in exact mechanics.



Her esper mode overcharged spells by upping their power. She's can be the first to hit the damage cap using that... and when the ability becomes meaningless you know you really did too much grinding.

The dual casting is another relic.

Right, I was thinking of Vivi in ff9.

[Fallen Angel]

So help me I have a distinct recollection of Celes nullifying both a monster's spell and my own stupidly cast one before her next turn. Then again I also last played FFVI with a pretty serious romhack to replace all the major characters with ponies so.... yeah.

Link me!

That sounds awsome.

[TheSummoner]

Because it doesn't work by just holding it up. She spends her action, holds it up, it flashes, and it absorbs the next spell. That indicates that she has to do something to make it work not just hold it up. Also if it did work that way you now have Xykon a lich with a paralyzing touch, Redcloak, and potentially some rather potent undead (as shown when they put Azure under siege they can make some rather potent types of undead) versus Leo and two mages.

And then Celes would just sit there for several seconds waiting for some omnicient commander to tell her to do it again, right?

Final Fantasy's combat system is far too abstracted to be taken without a grain of salt. D&D is too, don't get me wrong, though I'd still call it closer to reality than FFVI. Atleast D&D defines how long a round of action is.

And again... What happens if Celes* just casts reflect on herself? Xykon blasts her and the spell bounces right back and explodes in his face.

(or Kefka. Or Gestahl. It's a pretty basic spell, learned quickly from an Esper that they already had sitting in their lab)

[Kitten Champion]

Link me!

That sounds awsome.

After a brief search, the link is at the bottom of the page, assuming this is the same hack. Just started in Neighshe. myself.

[about50heavies]

What about the dark one and the other gods in oots. Highly doubt the dark one would allow the slaughter of that many goblins

[Felyndiira]

Aside from phoenix down or life spells, Celes could just cast vanish on Kefka, then follow up with doom, and the lich would be gone in two turns. Same probably goes for redcloak.

Barring that, Xykon isn't very tactical, so there are a lot of things in the FF universe that could potentially screw him over. Runic, reflect (granted, it would end up giving temporary health to xykon, but eh), flare (bypasses resistances), ULTIMA, etc. would make short work of a lot of the villains in OotS. Heck, you could equip someone with null fire and null lightning, inflict undead on that person, and Xykon is suddenly useless.

Xykon and Redcloak together implies that the Emperor is somehow engaging the opposition in a disadvantageous free-for-all, which should not happen. Red will get stopped or something and be out-of-commission for the few turns it takes for vanish + doom to dispatch Xykon.

[Forum Explorer]

What about the dark one and the other gods in oots. Highly doubt the dark one would allow the slaughter of that many goblins

It's not like they've done anything to prevent the mass slaughter of goblins yet besides the plan. Since Emperor Gestahl is taking out the biggest threat to the world at the moment I don't think the other gods would interfere either.


Anyways I think Xykon is immune to most of the conventional spells (Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Bio + others that share those subtypes.) So assuming that Life spells don't instant kill him they've got a couple of rounds before one side starts to resort to using vanish+doom. (does doom work on undead anyways?) Plus he does have Redcloak backing him up and likely Tsuikito as well.

Celes also can only block one spell at a time for whatever reason (no I don't think you can just assume she's somehow able to keep it up perpetually unless that's somehow mentioned in the game somewhere). That'd likely block Xykon's first spell as well as one spell per round. Reflect wouldn't block AoE spells. Xykon could really mess up the enemy with a Symbol of Insanity.

Basically this is a very even fight which is pretty cool. Both sides are also willing to run away if things look like they aren't going well and come back for a rematch a bit more prepared.