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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
    Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"
    true enough. the others not so much though.

    well, none of them, really. some have intimidate, but none really centers around it.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    true enough. the others not so much though.

    well, none of them, really. some have intimidate, but none really centers around it.
    That reads to me as "none of the listed SI options will be considered a 'good choice' without complaint." Choosing the Secret Ingredient is fun, isn't it?
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytalist View Post
    Woo boy. Justiciar. Somehow I was under the impression that it was already used as an ingredient in another competition? I suppose I was wrong.
    Don't feel bad, I could've sworn that Iron Chef was already on its fifty-somethingth competition.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    More random PrCs that might be viable candidates;

    Shadow Sun Ninja, Valadis Beastkeeper (possibly with changed entry req. to allow for non-Eberron adapations), Soul Eater (with clarification on how it functions), Runescarred Berserker, Ashworm Dragoon, Swiftblade.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
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    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    twisted lord is a class that I always thought was kind of good, but sees little use due to its obscurity. it's ridiculously easy to qualify for, and is the only class besides exemplar and uncanny trickster I've seen to give 8 points/lvl.

    that's about all the 10 level, non-full casting, fun, relatively easy to enter PrCs that haven't been featured on IC I can think of right now. how about other people?
    The incredibly obscure Scorpion Heritor (Sandstorm) also gets 8+Int skill points/level, as well as full SA.

    Off the top of my head I'd love to see Wildrunner (RotW), Shadowmind (CAdv) and Fang of Sseth (SK).

    And bonus points for the horrendously bad Knight of the Chalice (CW).

    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    More random PrCs that might be viable candidates;

    Shadow Sun Ninja, Valadis Beastkeeper (possibly with changed entry req. to allow for non-Eberron adapations), Soul Eater (with clarification on how it functions), Runescarred Berserker, Ashworm Dragoon, Swiftblade.
    Ashworm Dragoon? Come on, that class is actually pretty good. And Swiftblade is actually actually good. Soul Eater's a fairly popular choice as well, so I doubt that one will be a Secret Ingredient anytime soon.

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    Frankly, I think the designers and novelists did great work in the post-Spellplague Realms. But, in the end, this wasn’t a new setting. It was the Realms, the Realms 100 years later, and therein lay the problem.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    More random PrCs that might be viable candidates;

    Shadow Sun Ninja, Valadis Beastkeeper (possibly with changed entry req. to allow for non-Eberron adapations), Soul Eater (with clarification on how it functions), Runescarred Berserker, Ashworm Dragoon, Swiftblade.
    Ashworm Dragoon and Swiftblade are both too good/popular to make good choices.

    Soul Eater has a huge can of worms with it, in addition to the "fear/debuff stacking shenanigans" complaint.

    Runescarred Berserker is hilariously hard to qualify by RAW in 3.5 (as in, you can't, if Curmudgeon's reading of the RAW is correct). Its "separate casting mechanic" is also one which has been specifically requested against of late.

    Shadow Sun Ninja also hits the "fear/debuff stacking shenanigans" complaint squarely. While it's the only ToB class I'd personally consider at all for the contest, any ToB class runs the risk of being considered "too good" for the purposes of Iron Chef.

    Valadis Beastmaster is a "separate casting mechanic" class, a mechanic which has generated specific calls against it of late. It also shares the issue with RsB of being arguably "too obscure".
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Let's just go back to the method of "whichever PrC will make competitors groan the most."
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    I'm suddenly very grateful that I'm not the one who has to choose the ingredients. Thank you Amphetryon!

    Additionally, I'm really, really happy with my current build for Justicar. I've got to make sure that I've got Skills squared away, but otherwise, the mechanics of it are set!
    Last edited by Menteith; 2012-09-10 at 07:24 PM.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    That reads to me as "none of the listed SI options will be considered a 'good choice' without complaint." Choosing the Secret Ingredient is fun, isn't it?
    I don't understand what you mean. could you explain?

    I don't think that anyone will look at the list I gave and say "that is going to give us an entry that's all fear stacking"

    I certainly don't want people to complain about my secret ingredient suggestions. you're the chairman, so the decision's ultimately up to you. I just thought throwing out a few that complied with Menteith's criteria might give us an impression of what chefs wanted to cook next time around (and what you thought might be fun)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    The incredibly obscure Scorpion Heritor (Sandstorm) also gets 8+Int skill points/level, as well as full SA.
    I am a huge fan of scorpion heritor. its tremorsense ability is awesome, and full SA for a 10 lvl prc is unprecedented besides assassin (I think) so that's pretty fun.

    I do question your assertion that sandstorm is more obscure than shattered gates of slaughtersdale though


    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    I'm suddenly very grateful that I'm not the one who has to choose the ingredients. Thank you Amphetryon!

    Additionally, I'm really, really happy with my current build for Justicar. I've got to make sure that I've got Skills squared away, but otherwise, the mechanics of it are set!
    on that note, my build is done as of yesterday, I just need backstory
    Last edited by Venger; 2012-09-10 at 07:45 PM.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger
    I don't understand what you mean. could you explain?
    At the risk of setting up a recursive loop, I'll have to ask for more information about the source of your confusion before I can explain.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
    Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"
    none of the ones I submitted (to my knowledge) have any fear-stacking/intimidate stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    true enough. the others not so much though.

    well, none of them, really. some have intimidate, but none really centers around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    That reads to me as "none of the listed SI options will be considered a 'good choice' without complaint." Choosing the Secret Ingredient is fun, isn't it?
    I'm not sure what you mean. do you mean "I don't think you'll be satisfied unless someone complains about the SI you have chosen" ? because that is not true of me. if you meant something else, what is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    At the risk of setting up a recursive loop, I'll have to ask for more information about the source of your confusion before I can explain.
    my confusion is regarding your interpretation of my comment. did you feel differently about their intimidate/fear stuff? they're not really centered around it.

    as far as runescarred berserker goes, why is it impossible to qualify for? couldn't one take survivor, then buy 2 CC in local (rashemen) ? or is there something I am missing?
    Last edited by Venger; 2012-09-10 at 08:54 PM.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    none of the ones I submitted (to my knowledge) have any fear-stacking/intimidate stuff.
    If they have Intimidate as a class skill or another means of debuffing the opponent(s), they're likely to see use for "stacking fear/debuff shenanigans," particularly in the absence of full casting or a similar strong alternative.

    I'm not sure what you mean. do you mean "I don't think you'll be satisfied unless someone complains about the SI you have chosen" ? because that is not true of me. if you meant something else, what is it?
    That's almost 100% the opposite of what I said; I said that none of the options listed meet the metric of avoiding the complaints leveled against SI choices. I made no comment whatsoever about you, or someone else, not being satisfied until there was a complaint.

    my confusion is regarding your interpretation of my comment. did you feel differently about their intimidate/fear stuff? they're not really centered around it.
    See above regarding Intimidate. Merely having it on their Class list - and not having a strong incentive in the PrC to ignore it - means that at least one person is likely to build any of those PrCs with Intimidate/fear stacking/debuffing as a theme, which has caused complaint of late.

    as far as runescarred berserker goes, why is it impossible to qualify for? couldn't one take survivor, then buy 2 CC in local (rashemen) ? or is there something I am missing?
    As of 3.5, it is not technically possible to qualify for the Berserker Lodge feats without the DM houseruling for you, per Curmudgeon's interpretation of the RAW.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-09-10 at 09:27 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    If they have Intimidate as a class skill or another means of debuffing the opponent(s), they're likely to see use for "stacking fear/debuff shenanigans," particularly in the absence of full casting or a similar strong alternative.

    That's almost 100% the opposite of what I said; I said that none of the options listed meet the metric of avoiding the complaints leveled against SI choices. I made no comment whatsoever about you, or someone else, not being satisfied until there was a complaint.

    See above regarding Intimidate. Merely having it on their Class list - and not having a strong incentive in the PrC to ignore it - means that at least one person is likely to build any of those PrCs with Intimidate/fear stacking/debuffing as a theme, which has caused complaint of late.

    As of 3.5, it is not technically possible to qualify for the Berserker Lodge feats without the DM houseruling for you, per Curmudgeon's interpretation of the RAW.
    I understand now. well, like you said, it's awfully hard to find classes with no casting/intimidate.

    ah, that explains that. thanks
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
    Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"
    Yay, I'm important!
    I think that just having Intimidate as a class skill does not necessarily mean we'll get all builds with fear optimization. Kensai is a bit of a problem since it gets a bonus to Intimidate, so you either use it or lose points, since you're not using all parts of the SI.
    From the SI suggested, my personal favorites are Scorpion Heritor, Wildrunner and Shadow Sun Ninja - though I also think Shadow Sun Ninja could be used later, because it will cause a storm of fear-optimized characters.
    Amph, congratulations on being this open about suggestions, that's pretty cool.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    I'm probably going to enter - tweaking a final design before final fluffing.

    For all the first-timers out there, here's some advice (set to the 'tune' of a certain commercial)

    Spoiler
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    Start with a simple idea
    Think
    Think more
    Drink coffee
    Stop thinking
    Start doing
    Plot a build
    Kill the build
    More coffee
    Build something totally original
    Ok, not that original
    Blow-your-mind original
    Now it’s time to create something
    Do it again and again
    That’s good
    Kick out the clichés
    Call in the fluff writers
    Call in the rules guys
    Call in the optimizers
    Not those optimizers
    Those Optimizers
    Blow off lunch
    Blow off dinner
    Blow off weekends
    SLEEP
    ...
    Ok, that’s enough sleep
    More coffee
    Build a preliminary build
    Mold it
    Shape it
    Hate it
    Start over
    Build another preliminary
    Mold it
    Shape it
    Love it
    That’s good
    More coffee
    Give it some kick
    Give it more power
    More power
    Never too much power
    Base Attack of +15
    No, +16
    Make it in less than 20 levels
    Oh no, the Rules laywers
    You can’t do that.
    Kick out the Rules lawyers!
    Playtest the build.
    Tweak
    Tweak
    TWEAK
    TWEAK
    STOP!
    Get a second opinion.
    Call the critics.
    Call your friends.
    Get a celebrity endorser.
    Huh
    No
    No
    No
    No
    Yes. He’s perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon
    I am?
    Yes, you are.
    Making an ICO winning build.
    It’s that easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S. Kemp
    Frankly, I think the designers and novelists did great work in the post-Spellplague Realms. But, in the end, this wasn’t a new setting. It was the Realms, the Realms 100 years later, and therein lay the problem.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Wow. It fits! So that means somebody else is probably using it. Maybe? And it's not nearly...but it fits! *pulls hair*

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Yay, I'm important!
    I think that just having Intimidate as a class skill does not necessarily mean we'll get all builds with fear optimization. Kensai is a bit of a problem since it gets a bonus to Intimidate, so you either use it or lose points, since you're not using all parts of the SI.
    From the SI suggested, my personal favorites are Scorpion Heritor, Wildrunner and Shadow Sun Ninja - though I also think Shadow Sun Ninja could be used later, because it will cause a storm of fear-optimized characters.
    Amph, congratulations on being this open about suggestions, that's pretty cool.
    hey, you were the one who said what we were all thinking, that entitles you to a little recognition. too bad you didn't like any of my suggestions, maybe next time. I'd kind of like to roll up a scorpion heritor as well. that bonus against mind affecting is pretty sweet as far as feat taxes go.

    I really like twisted lord. I love the silly troll face he's making, I'm sure there'd be some weird things people would do with that class.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    I'm probably going to enter - tweaking a final design before final fluffing.

    For all the first-timers out there, here's some advice (set to the 'tune' of a certain commercial)

    Spoiler
    Show

    Start with a simple idea
    Think
    Think more
    Drink coffee
    Stop thinking
    Start doing
    Plot a build
    Kill the build
    More coffee
    Build something totally original
    Ok, not that original
    Blow-your-mind original
    Now it’s time to create something
    Do it again and again
    That’s good
    Kick out the clichés
    Call in the fluff writers
    Call in the rules guys
    Call in the optimizers
    Not those optimizers
    Those Optimizers
    Blow off lunch
    Blow off dinner
    Blow off weekends
    SLEEP
    ...
    Ok, that’s enough sleep
    More coffee
    Build a preliminary build
    Mold it
    Shape it
    Hate it
    Start over
    Build another preliminary
    Mold it
    Shape it
    Love it
    That’s good
    More coffee
    Give it some kick
    Give it more power
    More power
    Never too much power
    Base Attack of +15
    No, +16
    Make it in less than 20 levels
    Oh no, the Rules laywers
    You can’t do that.
    Kick out the Rules lawyers!
    Playtest the build.
    Tweak
    Tweak
    TWEAK
    TWEAK
    STOP!
    Get a second opinion.
    Call the critics.
    Call your friends.
    Get a celebrity endorser.
    Huh
    No
    No
    No
    No
    Yes. He’s perfect.

    Yes, you are.
    Making an ICO winning build.
    It’s that easy.
    Heh, that reads like a George Carlin bit.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I do question your assertion that sandstorm is more obscure than shattered gates of slaughtersdale though
    Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I really like twisted lord. I love the silly troll face he's making, I'm sure there'd be some weird things people would do with that class.
    There was an entry in Round X, I believe (whichever round we did Blade Bravo) that made use of Twisted Lord--I think it was Moudo.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .



    There was an entry in Round X, I believe (whichever round we did Blade Bravo) that made use of Twisted Lord--I think it was Moudo.
    Yep. Trust me, I know.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .
    heehee


    There was an entry in Round X, I believe (whichever round we did Blade Bravo) that made use of Twisted Lord--I think it was Moudo.
    oh, I must've forgotten.

    hey, what's the fastest from announcement to submission in iron chef? I tried checking the IC records thread, and I didn't see it there. I was talking about it earlier but have been unsuccessful while looking at the archive.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I am a huge fan of scorpion heritor. its tremorsense ability is awesome, and full SA for a 10 lvl prc is unprecedented besides assassin (I think) so that's pretty fun.

    I do question your assertion that sandstorm is more obscure than shattered gates of slaughtersdale though
    Quote Originally Posted by OMG PONIES View Post
    Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .
    Oh, I didn't mean that It's Hot Outside is obscure - I meant that I've never heard of a build that uses Scorpion Heritor.

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    The Power of the Orient: A Wu Jen Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S. Kemp
    Frankly, I think the designers and novelists did great work in the post-Spellplague Realms. But, in the end, this wasn’t a new setting. It was the Realms, the Realms 100 years later, and therein lay the problem.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    hey, what's the fastest from announcement to submission in iron chef? I tried checking the IC records thread, and I didn't see it there. I was talking about it earlier but have been unsuccessful while looking at the archive.
    We've had one submission in +/- 3 hours, as I recall. It was under Prinny's watch.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Oh, I didn't mean that It's Hot Outside is obscure - I meant that I've never heard of a build that uses Scorpion Heritor.
    It's a pretty cool class, I've used it for NPCs a few times. In fact, a themed a whole tribe around it.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    It's a pretty cool class, I've used it for NPCs a few times. In fact, a themed a whole tribe around it.
    I've used it in a pbp; but I only had one level and the game died before the first combat was finished. hmmm now I am tempted to build a Scorpion Heritor and submit is as soon as (if) it is revealed as a secret ingredient.

    And wow I just checked the Record thread and it went up to ICOCitP XV. Is anyone willing to re-start it?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    And wow I just checked the Record thread and it went up to ICOCitP XV. Is anyone willing to re-start it?
    It's on the list of things I intend to do...right after updating the spreadsheet. TBH, it's fallen off a lot in recent rounds due to being busy with RL.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Dang... I have the perfect idea for this competition, using almost all of the abilities beautifully, and I just know it's going to be using the same base class as at least 3 other entries. Hopefully the other elements of the build are going to make up in the Originality department somewhat...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    Dang... I have the perfect idea for this competition, using almost all of the abilities beautifully, and I just know it's going to be using the same base class as at least 3 other entries. Hopefully the other elements of the build are going to make up in the Originality department somewhat...
    well, yeah, a certain base class seems to be coming to the forefront with this SI. darn prereqs.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    I feel confidant that no one else is dumb enough to do what I'm doing.
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    Hath but one page...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    I feel confidant that no one else is dumb enough to do what I'm doing.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've got a dumb idea too.
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