Darths and Droids III: Search Your DNA Report

[ChowGuy]

Oh, and I'll admit this time Jim's plan isn't too bad. Yeah, he's lucky Lucas didn't feel like showing the faces of all his Troopers to make them less relateable but obstructing the faces of all your soldiers so you can't even recognize anyone seems like a terrible idea for a military...

Bad enough to be #1 on Peter's Evil Overlord List (of things not to do)

Although slightly in Lucas' defense, albeit perhaps via retcon, being clones all of the storm troopers are identical so invidually recognizing them is slightly less a factor. The point about a total stranger masquerading as one still stands of course, to say nothing Luke being the wrong size. Heck, Leia even hung a lampshade on it, and if it's obvious to her, why didn't anyone else notice?

[Susano-wo]

because the clones thing is a total retcon. The line by Leia is just ragging on him for being scrawny. :P

[memnarch]

because the clones thing is a total retcon. The line by Leia is just ragging on him for being scrawny. :P

Was it ever mentioned in the movies that they're a bunch of clones? Movies 4-6 that is, because it's a big plot point that the originals are clones in 2-3.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Was it ever mentioned in the movies that they're a bunch of clones? Movies 4-6 that is, because it's a big plot point that the originals are clones in 2-3.

Not one single time. That's what "retcon" means. It also negated just about everything written about stormtroopers in the EU, too.

The explanation (a retcon of a retcon if you will) is that stormtroopers stopped being clone-only sometime between Ep III and Ep IV and the Empire started recruiting normally and putting regular recruits through harsh training to become "elite" stormtroopers. I believe this was supposedly because the Kaminoans started holding out and changing the clones to be loyal to themselves instead, or at least I remember spending a level of Battlefront 2's story mode blowing up a floating city because of something like this.

Darths & Droids ignores all this so far because clonetroopers are inherently funnier.

[Ubiq]

Was it ever mentioned in the movies that they're a bunch of clones? Movies 4-6 that is, because it's a big plot point that the originals are clones in 2-3.

In the movies themselves? No, but an article for one of the magazines back in the late '70s mentioned them being clones.

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/...a/post4-03.jpg

Some of that has changed obviously and was probably flavor text based on a generic note from Lucas, but the notion that they were clones was there more or less from the start.

The same magazine was also where the first mention arose of Obi-Wan fighting Vader on a volcanic planet with the latter becoming a cyborg afterwards.

[Gnoman]

Huh, I somehow missed out on Thursday's comic...
You know, it always bugs me... I guess with soldiers or monsters it's one thing but often just... helpless people will try to attack well-armed PCs because ??? Because they somehow annoyed them. Well, not too often. Yet still NPCs seem to jump into suicidal battles much more often than they should be common sense.


Oh, and I'll admit this time Jim's plan isn't too bad. Yeah, he's lucky Lucas didn't feel like showing the faces of all his Troopers to make them less relateable but obstructing the faces of all your soldiers so you can't even recognize anyone seems like a terrible idea for a military...

In the lore, Stormtroopers aren't simply infantry. They are shock troops and elite security forces. Encasing them in armor, with no differentiation, not only gives solid protection against gas or similar attacks (a modern soldier in full NBC gear is just as dehumanized) but turns them into the spirit of Empire made flesh, just as the Imperial class Star Destroyer is the face of the Empire to everything in space.

[The Glyphstone]

In the lore, Stormtroopers aren't simply infantry. They are shock troops and elite security forces. Encasing them in armor, with no differentiation, not only gives solid protection against gas or similar attacks (a modern soldier in full NBC gear is just as dehumanized) but turns them into the spirit of Empire made flesh, just as the Imperial class Star Destroyer is the face of the Empire to everything in space.

Plus, it was definitely retconned at some point that Stormtroopers weren't all clones by the beginning of ANH, the actual Fett-clones were mostly reduced to a single (though super-duper-elite) battalion. Can't remember the name, but their nickname is Vader's Fist. The bulk of the stormtrooper units were ordinary recruits.

[Landis963]

Plus, it was definitely retconned at some point that Stormtroopers weren't all clones by the beginning of ANH, the actual Fett-clones were mostly reduced to a single (though super-duper-elite) battalion. Can't remember the name, but their nickname is Vader's Fist. The bulk of the stormtrooper units were ordinary recruits.

It's [geek]the 501st[/geek]

[Kato]

Bad enough to be #1 on Peter's Evil Overlord List (of things not to do)

Sorry, I forgot how well sarcasm works over the internet...

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/...a/post4-03.jpg

That's quite an interesting article... So Lucas deliberately made a man squeeze into a tiny robot even though he had a perfectly well working real robot... genius.



I feel we are still not on a real agreement on the Stormtrooper retcon (or not). But then again, I don't think we ever will, unless one is willing to blindly trust what Lucas said. Though the article seems pretty convincing even though the "clones" vary in height at least.

[Feytalist]

Also I see the "Jim has a plan" drinking game is still in effect.

[Susano-wo]

In the movies themselves? No, but an article for one of the magazines back in the late '70s mentioned them being clones.

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/...a/post4-03.jpg

Some of that has changed obviously and was probably flavor text based on a generic note from Lucas, but the notion that they were clones was there more or less from the start.

The same magazine was also where the first mention arose of Obi-Wan fighting Vader on a volcanic planet with the latter becoming a cyborg afterwards.

Thank you for taking a piece of my soul away. ;_;

well, I would take an article from an official SW publication before Empire even came out as definitely evidence that they were supposed to be clone troopers. Which is silly if they are the mainline troops (which, though they aren't in the concept material, they are depicted as), though I can totally buy an elite battalion of clone troops.

I don't suppose you have easy access to that Article RE the climatic battle on a volcanic planet?

[The Glyphstone]

It's [geek]the 501st[/geek]

Blast, I should have known that, since they're also the Stormtrooper cosplay group.

[Ubiq]

That's quite an interesting article... So Lucas deliberately made a man squeeze into a tiny robot even though he had a perfectly well working real robot... genius.

It mentions that they had problems with the robotic version. Beyond mechanical problems (I've heard that the heat really worked on the radio-controlled version), I can kind of see Lucas' point about it looking a little too smooth in action. Artoo's rocking gait is kind of charming in a way and the three wheeled version doesn't have that quality.

Though the article seems pretty convincing even though the "clones" vary in height at least.

Easily rationalized by them increasing the number of genetic donors as time went by. It doesn't say anywhere here that all clones came from the same person.

Which is silly if they are the mainline troops (which, though they aren't in the concept material, they are depicted as)

They're really more shocktroops/Marines than anything else, which makes sense really. The only Imperial facility we see in the entire OT that isn't space-based is the shield generator in RotJ and Palpatine specifically points out that he sent in elite troops to protect it.

We also see plenty of regular Imperial troops on the Death Star, but only stormtroopers during the chase. Not really surprising though since the Imperial Army soldiers might balk at throwing their lives away to make the pursuit look good while clones are less likely to question orders.

I don't suppose you have easy access to that Article RE the climatic battle on a volcanic planet?

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/...a/post2-02.jpg

[Susano-wo]

I don't know, I would think that there would also be regular infantry on, say, the assault on Hoth. Though that is pretty easily handwaved by budgetary/filming constraints

Thanks for that article. It was pretty interesting (I like how the article acts as though Vader actually killed Lukes father instead of being him :P)

[Ubiq]

I don't know, I would think that there would also be regular infantry on, say, the assault on Hoth.

Hoth was an amphibious assault launched by the Death Squadron's naval infantry attachment.

Thanks for that article. It was pretty interesting (I like how the article acts as though Vader actually killed Lukes father instead of being him :P)

Note that it also mentions "Emperors" which I think also cropped up in the early Marvel comics.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Landshark!

Crap, I mean, Wookiegram!

[Kato]

Landshark!

Crap, I mean, Wookiegram!

I want to make this a thing! Need a wookie costume and a website and I'm gonna be rich!

[Androgeus]

I want to make this a thing! Need a wookie costume and a website and I'm gonna be rich!

Just turn up place and pretend to be a wookie? Man you are defiantly going to be rolling in it.

[Welf]

I want to make this a thing! Need a wookie costume and a website and I'm gonna be rich!

At least until George Lukas sues you and takes away all that money you made. And some more.

[hamishspence]

Note that it also mentions "Emperors" which I think also cropped up in the early Marvel comics.

It's actually in the A New Hope novelization, when Obi-Wan's explaining Vader to Luke:

"Vader used the training I gave him and the Force within him for evil, to help the later corrupt Emperors. With the Jedi Knights disbanded, disorganized, or dead, they were too few to oppose Vader. Today they are all but extinct."

[Susano-wo]

wow, that is some good stuff. Though it makes you wonder how freakin old he is supposed to be!

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think that originally the position of "Emperor" was intended to be a succession of puppets, symbolic monarchs manipulated by lunatics like Vader and powerful military governors like Tarkin. Then once Lucas made money off the first movie, he retooled some of his backstory to make The Emperor the Big Bad and Vader a sympathetic (although still pretty insane) lackey.

[hamishspence]

Plus, it was definitely retconned at some point that Stormtroopers weren't all clones by the beginning of ANH, the actual Fett-clones were mostly reduced to a single (though super-duper-elite) battalion. Can't remember the name, but their nickname is Vader's Fist. The bulk of the stormtrooper units were ordinary recruits.

It's not quite that big a shrinkage. The usual figure given is that roughly 1/3 of the stormtroopers were clones as of ANH (The Essential Guide to Warfare gives this figure).

[NEO|Phyte]

I think that originally the position of "Emperor" was intended to be a succession of puppets, symbolic monarchs manipulated by lunatics like Vader and powerful military governors like Tarkin. Then once Lucas made money off the first movie, he retooled some of his backstory to make The Emperor the Big Bad and Vader a sympathetic (although still pretty insane) lackey.

Been a while since I watched the trilogy, but IIRC the first instance of the Emperor being mentioned was in ESB when Vader pulls his ship out of the asteroid field to make a call without interference, and that call pretty well established that Vader was the subordinate.

[Ubiq]

Been a while since I watched the trilogy, but IIRC the first instance of the Emperor being mentioned was in ESB when Vader pulls his ship out of the asteroid field to make a call without interference, and that call pretty well established that Vader was the subordinate.

Tarkin mentions the Emperor dissolving the Senate and I believe Obi-Wan mentions him as well.

The novelization has the Emperor rise to power because corporate interests and corrupt politicians thought that he was somebody easily manipulated, but Obi-Wan's talk with Luke makes it seem like Vader was the driving force in destroying the Jedi with the Emperor being much less important.

[ChowGuy]

but Obi-Wan's talk with Luke makes it seem like Vader was the driving force in destroying the Jedi with the Emperor being much less important.

The instrument perhaps, but that doesn't equate to being the leader. Leia, addressing Tarkin, remarks that she might have expectted to fin him "holding Vadar's leash" which pretty much confirms his position as somebody's subordinate and that he's only on loan to the governor. "The Emperor" is the only individual mentioned who's likely to have that kind of clout.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Like the 70's magazine articles, I was referring more to earlier versions of the story which were revised and retooled to become the sprawling epic we know and love. My main point was that there was very little made canon about the Emperor(s) in A New Hope, and that when he finally became a character Lucas went in a different direction than he had been looking at previously to make him the main villain of the story, rather than Vader or the Imperial military command in general.

[Kato]

There are always good reasons for splitting the party... mostly because you need to do two things at the same time. Which... pretty common.
But yeah, it makes the game so much more complicated, especially if you try to play both groups separately...
Anyway, why would they send Ben off on his own? Because his character is highest level?

[ChowGuy]

There are always good reasons for splitting the party...

Yeah maybe. But when did this bunch need a good reason?

[Radar]

Where do they get all those awesome Han Solo faces?

Also, never ever let Jim near your plans.