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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I think the wheellock guns were considered dangerous, and could provoke accidents, but the flintlocks ones were quite safer, and would rarely accidentally discharge while uncocked.

    Of course, any kind of gun was VERY likely to accidentally discharge once cocked (you would NEVER keep them cocked, but keep them uncocked and only pull the hammer/dog right before firing, unless you were planning an assassination and were keeping the gun hidden under your cloak).

    The flintlocks had a "half-cocked" position that was safe but allowed to **** the weapon faster than from the uncocked position.
    Most black-powder pistols will have a safety in the form of a half-**** position for the hammer/****. Flintlocks cannot be left loaded in the uncocked position, as that will mean the pan is open.* Percussion cap weapons can be left in the uncocked position, but this is (and was) considered dangerous practice, and the gun is technically not safe: pulling the trigger won't fire the weapon, but if the hammer is accidentally pulled a little ways back, or receives a strong shock, the gun may fire.

    Wheellocks could be made safe by lifting the jaws away from the pan, although in this case the trigger could be pulled, opening the pan cover, unwinding the wheel, and probably disrupting the priming powder. It wouldn't result in an accidental discharge, but it would unready the gun.

    However, some early flintlock pistols seem to have lacked a half-**** position. It's not universal, and may be a hold over from wheellock days. My assumption is that the weapon was primed shortly before battle, and simply left at full-****. I think I have seen some saftey mechanisms on early pistols, but I can't recall specifically. I own a repro percussion horse pistol that has a bizarre saftey on it, which basically protects the cap and prevents it from being struck (it also prevents the cap from falling off, and that may have been the primary reason to use it).

    *It may be possible to rest the **** against the frizzen, without it forcing the frizzen open, and dumping all the priming powder. The flintlocks I've handled have rather strong mainsprings and I wouldn't count on this.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    a quick question that popped into my mind:

    is thier any record or blackpowder pistols having some form of saftey catch?

    as was pointed out upthread, pistols were one of the few projectile weapons of their time that were kept loaded most of the time, and were expected to be carried loaded when other weapons, like muskets. would be left unloaded until they were needed.

    was their a significant chance of accidental discharge with pistols? or was it not an issue until the introduction of modern automatic pistols?
    People shot themselves pretty often unfortunately -- there was little training or education in gun safety, outside of military drills. Double action revolvers were probably the worst; many cowboys accidentally shot themselves (putting their pants on, even). It was probably with double action revolvers that safeties started to become more standard.

    The Prairie Traveler by Captain Marcy, 1859, devotes a few pages to gun safety, with many complaints about poor practices. It admonishes people to not pull loaded rifles out of wagons with the muzzle pointing right at them. Complains considerably about the practice of resting the hammer on the cap. And then states that treating all guns as loaded and never pointing them at someone is a good habit, practiced by those most experienced with firearms.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    Most black-powder pistols will have a safety in the form of a half-**** position for the hammer/****. Flintlocks cannot be left loaded in the uncocked position, as that will mean the pan is open.* Percussion cap weapons can be left in the uncocked position, but this is (and was) considered dangerous practice, and the gun is technically not safe: pulling the trigger won't fire the weapon, but if the hammer is accidentally pulled a little ways back, or receives a strong shock, the gun may fire.

    Wheellocks could be made safe by lifting the jaws away from the pan, although in this case the trigger could be pulled, opening the pan cover, unwinding the wheel, and probably disrupting the priming powder. It wouldn't result in an accidental discharge, but it would unready the gun.

    However, some early flintlock pistols seem to have lacked a half-**** position. It's not universal, and may be a hold over from wheellock days. My assumption is that the weapon was primed shortly before battle, and simply left at full-****. I think I have seen some saftey mechanisms on early pistols, but I can't recall specifically. I own a repro percussion horse pistol that has a bizarre saftey on it, which basically protects the cap and prevents it from being struck (it also prevents the cap from falling off, and that may have been the primary reason to use it).

    *It may be possible to rest the **** against the frizzen, without it forcing the frizzen open, and dumping all the priming powder. The flintlocks I've handled have rather strong mainsprings and I wouldn't count on this.
    A bit off-topic, but thank you forum autocensor for making this entire post sound obscene when it really, really wasn't.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    A bit off-topic, but thank you forum autocensor for making this entire post sound obscene when it really, really wasn't.
    I know, I've commented on it before myself -- it's pretty annoying as it's the correct term to use (in fact it would be pretty awkward not to use it). I wish the moderators would review things from time-to-time and uncensor them.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    A friend linked me to this guy doing very fancy speed-archery. Like jumping down from a raised platform and shooting three arrows, or having 11 arrows in the air before the first hits the ground.

    There are probably some errors in the narration ("all cultures used bows", which sounds like it's using speech synthesis, but it's probably still worth seeing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    I have seen this guy already, and while it's definitely on the 'fancy' side, it's still seriously simpressive.

    Especially falling from the gymnastic thing and hitting all the targets...

    Also, so much **** in this thread. **** thread.

    Spoiler
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    That does make sense. How effective was it overall in comparison to using a shield? Could they make the armor thick enough to match the protection of a shield without hindering movement to the point where the advantage of a free hand was lost?
    While plated arm is effectively quite similar in use to forearm-strapped shield, it's not quite the same obviously, so it's hard to compare 'protection' - pretty much most shields would provide a lot more cover and interception than even very big pauldrons, vambraces for example.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2012-12-01 at 07:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Now I want to see a group of 20 or 30 fast shooting archers all shooting at once mad minute style.
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    I have seen this guy already, and while it's definitely on the 'fancy' side, it's still seriously simpressive.

    Especially falling from the gymnastic thing and hitting all the targets...
    Yes, it is the answer to the Seljuk question, but it is a trade off of power for speed. Great accuracy, though!
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    But how much power do you really need? When you do a skirmishing charge, the guy with three arrows in the chest may not immediately notice that only a single of them penetrated into the body for two centimeters. You probably would have had a hundred of such archers, all charging by on horses, which is bad enough for morale as it is. If you have arrows bounce of your shield and helmet faster than you can count them and the same is happening to the guys around you, I would expect most organised defences to crumble pretty fast. And when you want to go for a killing shot, you can just adjust your firing from fast and weak to strong and slow at any moment. Knowing the technique doesn't mean you have to use it all the time.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quite a lot if you are shooting at a load of plate armoured French knights, apparently. It is probably no coincidence that speed shooting was institutionalised as part of the military in a horse archery culture where the form of warfare was largely hit and run.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Depends on what one wants to do and at what distance.

    Dunno what bow it is, but he is drawing with very easily with kind of "pencil" grip and arrows are very light carbon shafts.


    you can just adjust your firing from fast and weak to strong and slow at any moment.
    You can't "adjust" your, say 30 pound bow to be strong at some moment...
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Yes, but the video that started the whole discussion said the trick for very fast shoting is not to draw the bow to full pull (draw? length?). What I mean is that after shoting a weak arrow, you can just take the next arrow and draw it fully and concentrate on the shot. And then you can switch immediately to fast half-drawn shots without taking your hands of the bow and the arrows that are already in the hand.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Right, which makes it a trade off, power for speed. Where is the problem?
    Last edited by Matthew; 2012-12-01 at 10:11 AM.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    *snip*
    The point of confusion on crossbows is simply that there were many different types of crossbows, which required much different levels of skill to use, cost different amounts, and were used by different types of people.

    *snip*

    Regrding crossbows, there were many different types.

    A weapon like this, with a draw weight of around 150-200 lbs, was fairly simple to use, like a modern hunting crossbow. You could span it with your hands. Often they would have a simple wooden prod (bow), usually made of yew, or sometimes a steel prod like this one. This would basically be a hunting weapon which could also be used in war or for self defense.

    [img]http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/images/crossbows/ts-img-battle-crossbow_350x175.jpg[/img]

    This is a more powerful weapon in the 300-400 lb draw range. To span it you'll need a belt-hook or a device like a 'goats foot'. At that level of power, the bow is somewhat dangerous to use. If you slip while spanning it, or if the prod breaks, you could be injured. A lot of these also had composite prods which could easily be damaged by rain, so the prod had to be kept covered. The string is also vulnerable to moisture regardless of the type of prod.

    [img]http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/images/crossbows/ts_img_late-14thc-warbow_500x258[/img]

    In the later Middle Ages crossbows like these started to appear, with up to 1200 lbs draw. This is a lot more powerful than any crossbow you can get today. So people assume crossbows are like the ones they are familiar with, of the same level of power as the really simple one above. These things can't be spanned by hand, you have to use a device like a jack. If you slip while spanning, if the string or prod breaks, you could get seriously injured. In terms of power it's closer to a rifle or a musket than what we usually think of as a bow. This is a weapon which will be used by an expert.

    [img]http://collections.glasgowmuseums.com/media/E_1939_65_te_1&[2]_01_S.jpg[/img]

    a lot of these weapons were actually used mounted

    *snip*
    Similarly, you also have powerful siege crossbows like this, spanned by a windlass.

    [img]http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/images/crossbows/ts_img_windlass-crossbow_400x218.jpg[/img]

    G
    Hello again, although it seems no one here has interest in slingshots, I have more questions, all around the idea of muscle-powered projectile weapons. I would appreciate if someone replied.

    I guess what I really want to ask is your opinion on the possibility using bows, crossbows and such for civilian/nonmilitary self-defense in the 21st Century. Now, I know this is unrealistic; if under threat from something—be it some kind of gang-related group, paramilitia, rebel/terrorist groups, the walking dead —were threatening one or more people, and those people were faced with little reasonable hope for mercy or escape, then those people would want to use firearms. The reason seems clear: firearms are simply the most deadly individually operated weapons ever devised. But, in some cases the people trying to defend themselves are in a country where one would have a hard time obtaining firearms. Or maybe one doesn't want to attract attention to oneself with loud noises. Hand-to-hand fighting is one option here, but I think, as everyone here agrees, few untrained or half-trained people make it out alive once the knives are drawn. That leaves bows, crossbows, slingshots, spear-guns and the like.

    Medieval type longbows are awesome and extremely deadly (in the right hands, of course), but no one in today's world, with some exceptions, has the time or patience to train for years just to become proficient in their use. What about modern recurves/compound bows, such as those used for hunting? Would any of you consider using them? I can kind of see their drawbacks already (besides the obvious one, that in a fight between any two people with equal training, the one with a gun, such as a hunting rifle, would defeat the one with a bow 9 times out of 10), but I would like other people's opinions.

    Crossbows, such as modern ones used for hunting, have the advantage over bows that one can keep the weapon cocked and loaded for longer lengths of time, and better accuracy for the inexperienced shooter. (I've also seen them touted as the ideal anti-zombie weapon). Would any of you take these over bows? I quoted Galloglaich above since I found the medieval crossbows interesting. Would anyone think of using those? I found a video of a latchet crossbow built by Tod from todsstuff as well. It looks very nice.

    Here's a video brought to my attention recently of an unusual form of compound bow. What are one's thoughts on it? Link.

    Quote Originally Posted by endoperez View Post
    A friend linked me to this guy doing very fancy speed-archery. Like jumping down from a raised platform and shooting three arrows, or having 11 arrows in the air before the first hits the ground.

    There are probably some errors in the narration ("all cultures used bows", which sounds like it's using speech synthesis, but it's probably still worth seeing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g
    That's indeed impressive. I am reading the posts all on this topic attentively.

    And for anyone who replies, thank you for taking the time to read my overgrown post, and putting up with my ignorance, which I'm sure shows through all my words like holes in Swiss cheese.
    Last edited by Kurien; 2012-12-01 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    A two-parter, one straightforward and one kind of meta.

    1. Aside from Norse and Indian cultures, who else used pattern-welded steel? And more to the point, was it, in fact more effective than swords not pattern welded, due to flexibility, strength, and edge retention? Norwood claims it's so, a second opinion would be great.

    2. Whose fault is it that people think rapiers are armour piercing? Or that they're military weapons, for that matter? Is there an older genesis for this belief, or do I just, you know, blame Fire Emblem?
    Last edited by Kalmarvho; 2012-12-01 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    A two-parter, one straightforward and one kind of meta.

    1. Aside from Norse and Indian cultures, who else used pattern-welded steel? And more to the point, was it, in fact more effective than swords not pattern welded, due to flexibility, strength, and edge retention? Norwood claims it's so, a second opinion would be great.
    Some form of pattern welding was used all over Europe, since Roman times at least.

    Being more "effective" is pretty hard to tell - what's certain is that with more available iron/steel pattern welding ceased to be used.

    2. Whose fault is it that people think rapiers are armour piercing? Or that they're military weapons, for that matter? Is there an older genesis for this belief, or do I just, you know, blame Fire Emblem?
    It's all relative, rapiers can be certainly 'armour piercing' to some extent, way more able to stab trough a mail than a falchion, for example.

    As far as "military" goes, I believe that the confusion here comes from the fact that "rapier" can/could be broad term, and saying what's no longer a "rapier" and what still is, could be quite hard.

    Something like that tends to be called 'rapier' quite a lot in literature or whatever, while constructionally and funtcionally it definitely isn't actual civilian rapier at all.

    It's in fact long, cut&thrust sword with ricasso and elaborate guard with loop guard and all.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    1. Aside from Norse and Indian cultures, who else used pattern-welded steel? And more to the point, was it, in fact more effective than swords not pattern welded, due to flexibility, strength, and edge retention? Norwood claims it's so, a second opinion would be great.
    I suspect most steel using cultures used some form of pattern welding. It's done to homogenize the steel (to a degree) prior to invention / use of crucibles for purification of the metal. A Japanese smith's folding is the same thing, just done a few more times for a much finer pattern.

    The only reason to create pattern welded steel today is for the looks. Sufficient reason! :) (Have to admit to owning three.)

    2. Whose fault is it that people think rapiers are armour piercing? Or that they're military weapons, for that matter? Is there an older genesis for this belief, or do I just, you know, blame Fire Emblem?
    I'd never heard that belief...at least no more than the standard myth of any sword going through armor like it wasn't there. The attribute I have seen associated with rapiers is accuracy - experts were supposed to be capable of avoiding armor by hitting targets as small as a moving eye-hole. More an 'armor bypassing' belief than an 'armor piercing'.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Raum View Post
    I suspect most steel using cultures used some form of pattern welding. It's done to homogenize the steel (to a degree) prior to invention / use of crucibles for purification of the metal. A Japanese smith's folding is the same thing, just done a few more times for a much finer pattern.
    Most Japanese blades actually weren't pattern welded - Japanese tamahagane (Steel) was being made by folding the same billets of steel time and time again - to make it more pure and homogeneous.

    So not the same as folding and twisting together different pieces of iron/steel.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
    Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

    Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Most Japanese blades actually weren't pattern welded - Japanese tamahagane (Steel) was being made by folding the same billets of steel time and time again - to make it more pure and homogeneous.

    So not the same as folding and twisting together different pieces of iron/steel.
    Technically, it is the same. The difference is you don't see the pattern as easily in the folded (Japanese style) steel - it takes polishing and fairly close inspection. The different steels used in decorative pattern welding make the pattern come out easier, a simple acid wash is often enough for a distinctive contrast.
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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    A two-parter, one straightforward and one kind of meta.

    1. Aside from Norse and Indian cultures, who else used pattern-welded steel? And more to the point, was it, in fact more effective than swords not pattern welded, due to flexibility, strength, and edge retention? Norwood claims it's so, a second opinion would be great.

    2. Whose fault is it that people think rapiers are armour piercing? Or that they're military weapons, for that matter? Is there an older genesis for this belief, or do I just, you know, blame Fire Emblem?
    1. Vikings, japanese, persians, arabs, turks...etc. The spaniards, italians and turks copied the arab method who copied the persian method who copied the indian method.
    The europeans copied it from either the vikings, the spaniards or the muslims.
    If something works, everybody will try to get it (and if they refuse to teach you, you kidnap and torture their swordsmiths).

    2. I think people tend to confuse rapiers and estocs. Estocs were armor-piercing stabbing swords that had a superficial resemblance to rapiers. Many cultures get both mixed to some extent; the bullfighting swords are essentially modified rapiers, but they are called "estoques", estocs.
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-12-01 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Couple of shield questions:

    In terms of fighting on foot is there an advantage to using a "heater-shield" instead of a center-boss "viking" shield? The center-boss shield seems to have a reach advantage it seems like it would be easier to handle in a bind. What about a target or a rotella?

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    The main advantage of a crossbow in a modern context is that they are quiet. Much quieter even than a silenced rifle could be.

    Today only the relatively light hunting crossbows are available, and even these are sometimes used for specialist purposes by 'operators' (very rarely) But I suspect there might well be a bit more use for the more powerful Medieval type weapons which only a handful of experts like Leo Todeschini (Tods Stuff) can make today, if they were more widely available. That latchet crossbow is just one example, he also has a video of himself shooting a much more powerful weapon spanned by a goatsfoot which also allows a fairly high rate of shots.

    But he is also starting to make the really formidable late Medieval style weapons in the 900 - 1200 lb draw range, and these I suspect might be liked by black ops type guys: extended armor piercing capability (with the right kind of projectile) while also remaining very quiet, plus a vastly extended range over a modern crossbow, close to that of a modern assault rifle.

    That said a crossbow would still be very much a niche weapon. For survival / zompoc purposes it's nice that you can reuse ammunition but bolts and arrows have a tendency to break when you shoot them, especially at very high velocity.

    Aside from Norse and Indian cultures, who else used pattern-welded steel?
    As others said, it was used all over the world, it seems to have been part of a long transitional phase in Europe, seen (very, very rarely) from the beginning of the Iron Age in the 8th Century (associated with the Halstadt and later La Tčne ('Celtic', Ligurian, Iberian and Illyrian) cultures, very gradually becoming a bit more common by the 3rd Century AD when Germanic and Scandinavian smiths started making a lot more of them, then fading out by around the 8th Century when the Franks started making a lot of good homogeneous steel.

    But in some other places the technique remained popular almost to this day, such as in Malaysia and in certain places in the Philippines. A lot of Barongs are made pattern-welded, like this one:





    http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1412

    As to whether these made the blades better, is a subject of hot debate in Academia and among collectors. Some pattern welded Norse blades were known to be extraordinarily flexible, to the extent that they could be bent almost 90 degrees to the side and return to true. Allegedly this test has been done on some antiques though I don't know of any proof of that. Today of course pattern welding is done mainly for aesthetic purposes, sometimes to fool people into thinking it's "Damascus" or Wootz steel, (which is a type of that crucible steel someone mentioned upthread, a different and probably generally superior process). People make fake pattern welded blades by making a knife out of a cable for example.

    The original purpose of the technique was to get something like a good homogeneous steel blade out of very small billets of hard-but-too-brittle steely iron (like cast iron) and flexible-but-too-soft wrought iron.

    Personally I do suspect some pattern-welded weapons were and are better quality than other steels, though a lot of people would say I'm crazy in that. the swordsmith Petter Johnsson has done some really interesting work recently in figuring out the context of sword design which for me, opens the door on a number of ways which are not obvious to us today, which all kinds of composite construction of blades made them perform better. To paraphrase him, contrary to the Victorian fantasy of a sword being like a sharpened crowbar, a sword blade is really almost more like an airplane wing.

    In terms of fighting on foot is there an advantage to using a "heater-shield" instead of a center-boss "viking" shield?
    Both types were used but the former seems much more popular through history. I suspect the main reason for the popularity of the heater was, as you seem to be implying, for cavalry. Some arm-grip shields were made for infantry as well though. The trade off is reach and agility vs. stability and ease of holding the thing up for long periods, especially true for heavier shields like some of the steel rotella and those Ottoman bullet-proof shields you start to see in the 16th and 17th Centuries.

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Strap-on shields are less tiring to keep raised, are held in a stronger grip (harder for an enemy to move them out of the way), are easier to put your shoulder and weight behind (to push or resist push), and some designs give better coverage in close formation.

    Center-grip shields give a wider repertoire of offensive techniques.

    Very simply, strap-ons are better for defense and center-grips are better offensively. Strap-ons are also more forgiving, being better for fighters with less training.

    I have no experience with target or rotella but I do know the buckler. From what I can see the target or rotella would be a more extreme center-grip shield, with exaggerated weaknesses and strengths.



    @Kurien:
    I do not have a gun in my apartment. I do have a bow. If the apocalypse came I would certainly take it with me, as it is the best tool I have for hurting things at a distance.
    I would not use it against people with guns unless I truly had no other choice, as those odds are not in my favour... but you use the tools you have.
    Regarding crossbows, I would take one over a bow for the reasons you mention. I would still take a gun over a crossbow.

    Plenty of people have died from arrows and bolts over the years, we are not immune to old weapons just because we have new ones.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Crossbows can also be a way to deliver drugs or poisons, (those 'repeating' crossbows were used in China to shoot poisoned darts) or even to place bugs or tiny cameras, or little robots.

    In movies you see them used to shoot a grapnel, I don't know how realistic that is but it's probably possible.

    Personally I really don't think arm-strap shields are better for defense, they are easier to hold up, but they are also easier to get around because they don't seem to be as agile and are held closer to the body. In the SCA they are popular because you can't aim at the lower legs and they use super heavy shields (much heavier than historical) which would be hard to hold with a center grip.

    Historical wooden / composite shields tended to be very light and thin compared to what you see in a re-enactment or SCA context, and somewhat disposable. With some exceptions of course such as the old Greek hoplite shield (which was wood and bronze).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    2. I think people tend to confuse rapiers and estocs. Estocs were armor-piercing stabbing swords that had a superficial resemblance to rapiers. Many cultures get both mixed to some extent; the bullfighting swords are essentially modified rapiers, but they are called "estoques", estocs.
    This was exactly the point I was going to make. Estoc (Spanish), Stocco (Italian), Tuck (English), were, initially at least, long stiff piercing swords -- however, historically the terminology was all over the map, and what we would call a rapier a 17th century Englishman may have called a "tuck." Modern definitions are often more precise than historical ones.

    This sometimes lead to bizarre anachronisms. Collectors will tell you that there is no such thing as a Model 1822 (United States) Musket -- it's a Model 1816 type II. Historically the United States army didn't assign year model designations until the Model 1822 musket was adopted!! (Before that they were referred to as the Common Musket, or something like that). So historically there was no such musket referred to as a "Model 1816", but collectors found it a convenient definition to use (or invent).

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Raum View Post
    Technically, it is the same. The difference is you don't see the pattern as easily in the folded (Japanese style) steel - it takes polishing and fairly close inspection. The different steels used in decorative pattern welding make the pattern come out easier, a simple acid wash is often enough for a distinctive contrast.
    Well, the thing you can generally see in Japanese blade is layers and layers and layers of the same steel that was folded numerous times.

    And not the actual patterns or 'braids' of slightly to very different iron/steel.

    Layers instead of patterns, generally.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fortinbras View Post
    Couple of shield questions:

    In terms of fighting on foot is there an advantage to using a "heater-shield" instead of a center-boss "viking" shield? The center-boss shield seems to have a reach advantage it seems like it would be easier to handle in a bind. What about a target or a rotella?
    Generally, throughout most of history, in the whole world, central gripped shield were vastly most popular. Forearm strapping would be somehow more 'specific' design for certain applications.

    Like hoplite shields - those presumably were held like that for maximal stability and pushing/impact potential...

    Heater shields become popular among people who generally had some arm protection at least.

    Quite obviously, for some ordinary Kelt/Swab/Samnite or whoever, wielding shield that he could be nailed to wouldn't be best idea...

    The idea was to keep sharp thing as much away from the body as it possible. Thus perpendicular arm, behind the boss/umbo was quite safe from anything that could get stuck in the shield.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    1. Vikings, japanese, persians, arabs, turks...etc. The spaniards, italians and turks copied the arab method who copied the persian method who copied the indian method.
    The europeans copied it from either the vikings, the spaniards or the muslims.
    If something works, everybody will try to get it (and if they refuse to teach you, you kidnap and torture their swordsmiths).
    Eh, "Europeans" had it before 'vikings' or 'muslims' were even being talked about. Pattern welding was found in La Tene ('Celtic') and Roman context, among others.

    After the fall of Empire, it became prevalent in whole Germanic world, so among "Vikings" (sea riders/merchants from Scandinavia, but not only) as well. Among other people as well, if due to Roman influence, or from other sources is pretty impossible to tell.

    Generally any blade or tool made in 'Dark Ages' small, local smithy will be pattern welded, because it would be only way to receive bigger billet of iron/steel from man small bits of iron of different carbonization level and so on.

    The trick of "quality" was obviously in details, arrangement, design, plan of this process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Eh, "Europeans" had it before 'vikings' or 'muslims' were even being talked about. Pattern welding was found in La Tene ('Celtic') and Roman context, among others.

    After the fall of Empire, it became prevalent in whole Germanic world, so among "Vikings" (sea riders/merchants from Scandinavia, but not only) as well. Among other people as well, if due to Roman influence, or from other sources is pretty impossible to tell.

    Generally any blade or tool made in 'Dark Ages' small, local smithy will be pattern welded, because it would be only way to receive bigger billet of iron/steel from man small bits of iron of different carbonization level and so on.

    The trick of "quality" was obviously in details, arrangement, design, plan of this process.
    OK. I think we, the people in the forum are mixing different things:

    There are several methods to get strong steel that leave welding patterns in the steel.

    The iron age La Tene people used several methods to strenghen their blades, but those were largely lost before the fall of the Roman Empire. The germanic tribes in the borders of the Empire still created them.

    The vikings twisted several high-carbon steel and iron bars like a rope and welded and forged them together. This method fell out of use at the end of the viking era.

    The japanese folded a sheet of steel many times and combined a very hardened edge with a softer and more flexible back and sides in their blades.

    The indians used crucible steel, and combined a soft core with an outer hardened layer. This is the method that went from India to Persia to Damascus to Europe.

    The medieval european weapons with welding patterns are derived either from viking/germanic techniques (earlier ones) or from the indian ones that arrived to Europe through the muslim world (later ones).
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2012-12-02 at 11:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Well, to clear this all the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post

    The iron age La Tene people used several methods to strenghen their blades, but those were largely lost before the fall of the Roman Empire. The germanic tribes in the borders of the Empire still created them.
    As mentioned, not so much "strengthen" as just produce any suitable blade at all from bloomery iron, usually a lot of small, contaminated bits.

    The vikings twisted several high-carbon steel and iron bars like a rope and welded and forged them together. This method fell out of use at the end of the viking era.
    "Viking" is obviously more of a profession, not an ethnicity, and Norse people anyway weren't making all that many swords - not that much iron, low population, and so on. Apparently, from the earliest times of "Dark Age", Rhine, Donau, Seine etc. based settlements were main exporters of the blades. Famous "Ulfberth" swords, for example.

    But patternwelded weapons were being made all around the Europe, from Rus to Spain, since as mentioned it was often more or less only way to obtain bigger knife or sword.

    In fact there are quite a few swords in Poland that had "Ulfberth" badly written on them, so they were probably forgeries, trying to sell themselves as famous "brand".


    Anyway, I don't think there's much base in saying that Ancient techniques got "lost" in any way - this was pretty much constant way of making majority of blades until furnaces didn't really kick in.

    The japanese folded a sheet of steel many times and combined a very hardened edge with a softer and more flexible back and sides in their blades.

    The indians used crucible steel, and combined a soft core with an outer hardened layer. This is the method that went from India to Persia to Damascus to Europe.
    And Japanese swords, and many Indian ones, as mentioned, weren't pattern welded. They had patterns, but were made differently.

    Japanese swords were laminated steel.

    A lot of Indian damascus blades were pretty homogeneous, because famous "Damascus" structure was obtained in other ways than pattern welding, and of apparently tremendous quality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Anyway, I don't think there's much base in saying that Ancient techniques got "lost" in any way - this was pretty much constant way of making majority of blades until furnaces didn't really kick in.
    It's less that the ancient techniques got lost, perhaps, and more that certain things that made one or another forging process unique got left out in the process. For example, while phosphorus can be problematic to steel, making it more brittle, trace amounts might have had an effect on the forging process. Any forge that used bone in the smelting process would end up with certain of those properties. So regional and cultural differences could have had a whole heap to do with the properties of different forges.

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    Default Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Well, the thing you can generally see in Japanese blade is layers and layers and layers of the same steel that was folded numerous times.

    And not the actual patterns or 'braids' of slightly to very different iron/steel.

    Layers instead of patterns, generally.
    Yes. The same layers cause bolder patterns when the steel is differentiated and homogenizing isn't your intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Japanese swords were laminated steel.
    Eh? No. Laminates are made by bonding thin pieces of material together.

    Forge welding is simply welding steel* together in the process of forging the piece. Pattern welding is a subset which carries the connotation of going for a bold design in the result. Folding steel is also a subset of forge welding. It's taking the same piece of steel and welding it to itself...many times. Japanese smiths repeated it often enough to homogenize the steel and have extremely fine patterns.

    In other words, pattern welding and folding steel are both forge welding.

    *There have been pattern welded pieces in bronze also - steel isn't a requirement.
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